Machine to replace Anesthesiologists?

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I feel like CRNAs and AAs will be hit hardest, quickest. The machine does exactly what CRNAs claim to do which is the lower level procedures - but at almost no cost

Maybe a couple decades or more after that boat certified anaesthesiologists will start to be effective - depends on their lobbying strat
 
Much ado about nothing. So many other things involved besides simply pushing drugs.
 
My friend say in India, he's had 2 operating tables side by side and he's given anesthesia to two different patients at the same time.

So what's not to say someone from anesthesia will be "supervising" 2 patients with the sedays machine in the future.
 
I welcome all technologies that make life easier. At some point the machine could do the colonoscopy also.

Mercedes is trying a self driving Semi.

Tesla cars drive themselves.

We cannot expect the status quo forever. Change is good.
 
CRNAs are replacing anesthesiologists and will continue to do so. THAT'S where the concern should be; not on this dumb as_s machine.
 
It happened in England all the time. I was a registrar many years ago and while the surgical registrar was closing skin, I had already put the next patient to sleep in the induction room next door, all the while keeping an eye on the first case. PACU nurses would come to the OT and take the first patient to Pacu.
 
Its a little amusing that the story has the nurse stimulating the patient to breathe while the machine provides "moderate" sedation. I'm not comfortable giving propofol myself but I'm supposed to be comfortable supervising this process and dealing with the complications when the patient ends up too deep like they did in the story. No thanks.

That said, you guys add too much cost to routine outpatient endoscopy. Versed and demerol for all my people.
 
Its a little amusing that the story has the nurse stimulating the patient to breathe while the machine provides "moderate" sedation. I'm not comfortable giving propofol myself but I'm supposed to be comfortable supervising this process and dealing with the complications when the patient ends up too deep like they did in the story. No thanks.

That said, you guys add too much cost to routine outpatient endoscopy. Versed and demerol for all my people.

Totally agree. 80% of the general public really don't need "propofol sedation". Frankly it's been a "marketing" gimmick many anesthesia groups and corporation (AMCs) sell when trying to get anesthesia contracts.

Especially when commercial insurers are paying 3-4 x the Medicare rate for GI anesthesia. It's a multi billion dollar business.

Think about a regular GI center with 2-3 rooms. Doing 6000 procedures. 50% commercial insurance.

Say average payout is $400 (when factoring in Medicare low payouts ($100-125/case). $400 x 6000 is 2.4 million.

Pay the MD $350k. Pay 3 crnas $160k. That's around $850k in salary. Factor in another $500k in locums/vacation coverage plus other admin fees.

So that brings it to around 1.4 million.

Anesthesia corporations (management companies) are still clearing well over 1 million in pure profits.

Than they do the illegal "joint venture" with GI docs (see OIG opinion 12-06). Give GI docs $500k. Anesthesia company gets the other $500k.

This is how these GI business operate.

While propofol is superior to versed and fentanyl. The costs are very high. The cost to the system is very high.
 
Totally agree. 80% of the general public really don't need "propofol sedation". Frankly it's been a "marketing" gimmick many anesthesia groups and corporation (AMCs) sell when trying to get anesthesia contracts.

Especially when commercial insurers are paying 3-4 x the Medicare rate for GI anesthesia. It's a multi billion dollar business.

Think about a regular GI center with 2-3 rooms. Doing 6000 procedures. 50% commercial insurance.

Say average payout is $400 (when factoring in Medicare low payouts ($100-125/case). $400 x 6000 is 2.4 million.

Pay the MD $350k. Pay 3 crnas $160k. That's around $850k in salary. Factor in another $500k in locums/vacation coverage plus other admin fees.

So that brings it to around 1.4 million.

Anesthesia corporations (management companies) are still clearing well over 1 million in pure profits.

Than they do the illegal "joint venture" with GI docs (see OIG opinion 12-06). Give GI docs $500k. Anesthesia company gets the other $500k.

This is how these GI business operate.

While propofol is superior to versed and fentanyl. The costs are very high. The cost to the system is very high.

I agree with everything you posted. but 2.4 million is pissing in the pacific ocean in terms of cost. Its nothing.

The bigger problem is anesthesia companies and gi docs skimming off the top to capture our money.
 
I think demerol is the way of the future. Very forward thinking.

Right. We are supposed to hate it but I don't. The metabolite issue isn't relevant to endoscopy. The high is helpful. It lasts longer so my nurses can pay attention to the patient instead of the Pyxis. I like Demerol for sedation in patients under 65ish with normal renal fxn.

Educate me why this is a bad idea.
 
I always though remimidazolam would be an optimal sedative for GI cases. Likely not in bolus form. I think the context sensitive half life is less then propofol. Sedasys should be viewed like a new program on the ventilator or a TCI pump great gizmo to keep the anesthesiolgist hands free to be paying attention to the patient. This device should reinforce our vigilance not replace it.
 
I think the concern with remi was chest rigidity, described in unintubated patients.
 
Right. We are supposed to hate it but I don't. The metabolite issue isn't relevant to endoscopy. The high is helpful. It lasts longer so my nurses can pay attention to the patient instead of the Pyxis. I like Demerol for sedation in patients under 65ish with normal renal fxn.

Educate me why this is a bad idea.
It's cheap - that's the only thing it's got going for it. If you're using enough of it by itself to cause sedation, you're using too much. And why would you want a long-lasting high? Get them in, do the procedure, get them out.

I use straight propofol, period. It's far more efficient than demerol/versed could ever be. The patients love it (especially if they've had fentanyl/demerol/versed cocktails in the past), and GI docs demand it - none of them do their own IV sedation any more. Why should they? My patients are awakening before they leave the procedure room, are chatting by the time we get the first set of vital signs in the PACU, and are dressed and ready to go waiting for the magic 30 minute hospital PACU requirement to go by so they can head out the door. The propofol is long gone and they're N&V free - not so with a bunch of demerol and/or versed. Demerol has to be one of the most emetogenic drugs ever created. Why anyone uses it ever is beyond me.
 
Correct remi mazoloam. I cannot wait to see it in action. I wonder if this will be another induction drug which maintains hemodynamic stability similar to etomidate without the steroid suppresion. I have done a ton of solo colonoscopies and egds and I use propofol. Safe in the right hands, simple, and patients love it. Most ask for propofol when I see them in preop.
 
I welcome all technologies that make life easier. At some point the machine could do the colonoscopy also.

Mercedes is trying a self driving Semi.

Tesla cars drive themselves.

We cannot expect the status quo forever. Change is good.

If a machine can do everything we can do - we need to accept that and move one. I can't believe the ASA tried to stop this machine, but now tries to limit its use. Does the ASA really have that little of belief in our profession to think a machine can replace us? I am so opposite that type of thinking. I say let the machine loose...let people use it as much as that want for everything they want. We will learn something. Either we are really valuable and people will realize that - or we are not as valuable as we think we are - either way I would want to know.
 
Your GI docs demand it because they can. It doesn't cost them. But from a macro perspective, your presence can double the cost. Use of propofol MAC is very regional. I've been on both sides. Having you around is very nice. There's no denying the advantages. I just don't think they measure up to the costs for most cases.

We also push harder and MAY perforate more with propofol due to the lack of pt feedback. It's a big training issue as our fellows are finishing fellowship with no experience and then they decide they want a job in SoCal.

As for Demerol being emetogenic, that's just not my experience in this setting. Do you have data for that? As a frame of reference, most of my procedures get ~3mg of versed and 50mg of Demerol (or maybe a little more fentanyl).

The machine won't fly because it won't replace anesthesia providers in places that are already spoiled and the rest of us don't see a problem. Build a big enough recovery room ( and the data for faster turnover with anesthesia involvement is very mixed for a screening population).
 
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Right. We are supposed to hate it but I don't. The metabolite issue isn't relevant to endoscopy. The high is helpful. It lasts longer so my nurses can pay attention to the patient instead of the Pyxis. I like Demerol for sedation in patients under 65ish with normal renal fxn.

Educate me why this is a bad idea.
Because its an old drug with an active metabolite thats long acting. Why use it for a procedure that lasts a couple of minutes? Why not use Valium or Librium instead of Versed?
 
Interesting. I just had an EGD last week. In preop at 0800. GI nurse doing sedation. Got 5 midazolam, 50 Demerol and 25 Benadryl. Woke up 15 minutes later in PACU. Sleepy and wobbly at 2 hours. Had to be driven home. Slept till 4 pm. Still not quite 100% till the next day.

In my own practice, I never use Demerol. But I must say, it was not a bad experience.
 
Interesting. I just had an EGD last week. In preop at 0800. GI nurse doing sedation. Got 5 midazolam, 50 Demerol and 25 Benadryl. Woke up 15 minutes later in PACU. Sleepy and wobbly at 2 hours. Had to be driven home. Slept till 4 pm. Still not quite 100% till the next day.

In my own practice, I never use Demerol. But I must say, it was not a bad experience.
Demerol has terrible pharmokinetic profile.

If you had gotten propofol you could go to work after you leave the gi center. NO kidding.
 
It's been 32 years since I started in Anesthesia. I've used Demerol. On patients.

I was just sharing my personal experience of the non propofol sedation that included Demerol. And it wasn't too bad. I quite enjoyed it. And I had no plane to catch. It was nice to go home and stay in bed. The next day I was off but I worked at my farm, moving 32 railroad ties, two loads of gravel and a truckload of rock. I felt real good. I'm not sure propofol would have made my day any better.

By the way, I have a difficult airway.
 
It's cheap - that's the only thing it's got going for it. If you're using enough of it by itself to cause sedation, you're using too much. And why would you want a long-lasting high? Get them in, do the procedure, get them out.

I use straight propofol, period. It's far more efficient than demerol/versed could ever be. The patients love it (especially if they've had fentanyl/demerol/versed cocktails in the past), and GI docs demand it - none of them do their own IV sedation any more. Why should they? My patients are awakening before they leave the procedure room, are chatting by the time we get the first set of vital signs in the PACU, and are dressed and ready to go waiting for the magic 30 minute hospital PACU requirement to go by so they can head out the door. The propofol is long gone and they're N&V free - not so with a bunch of demerol and/or versed. Demerol has to be one of the most emetogenic drugs ever created. Why anyone uses it ever is beyond me.

Playing devils advocate.

The real issue is cost/benefit to the health care system.

Anesthesia charges with commercial insurance can range anywhere from as low as $30/40 a unit to well over $100/unit. The average units billed is between 7-9 units a case. Medicare is around $20/unit

70-80% of patients will be fine with conscious sedation. We know the ones who truly benefit from propofol only anesthesia (aka the sleep apnea population). Maybe the few who have extreme nausea with narcotics.

But benefit/cost to the system. Think about it. We can all try to rationize patients recover faster. GI docs can get through cases faster. But at the end of the day it's an unnecessary expense for a vast majority of patient especially those with high deductibles having diagnostic GI tests (not screenings)

It's an easy thing to tell people to have propofol and they recover faster. Tell that to someone who has a $5000 family deductible than an additional 30% co pay up to a $10000 max in network per year cost.

Costs add up very quickly.

It's all dandy when it's a "screening" colonoscopy and doesn't count against the deductible and "the other guys/insurance company is paying the anesthesia fee. It's another thing when you are paying out of pocket yourself.

The fact is most people will sleep off versed/fentanyl and be fine the next day.

If propofol were super safe and people are fine to go to back to work right away. What are your pacu nurses telling the patient? Are they telling them they can drive home themselves? Are they telling them they can go back to work right away lifting heavy construction material? Hell no! Liability reasons folks. Centers that used propofol only still tell patients not to drive and take it easy rest of the day.

If your center doesn't change the pacu discharge instructions for those having propofol only vs versed/fentanyl. Than what's the real benefit here?

The end game is vast majority of patients having versed/fentanyl will be fine the next day. They are instructed they can drive to work the next day. Which is the same as you tell patients having propofol.

Please let me know of any centers that use propofol that allow patients to drive themselves home and go back to work lifting heavy equipment. I'd love to know about them. (Obviously there are patients that will do that but they do it against medical advice) so we can wash our hands off if there are any problems.
 
Why Demerol? Why not morphine, or dilaudid?

Does anyone know?
 
I'm hoping for the "virtual ct endoscopy" to make this thread irrelevant in a few yrs.
 
Why Demerol? Why not morphine, or dilaudid?

Does anyone know?

I'm guessing Demerol gives a more pleasant 'high'. I've never had morphine or dilated but my one experience with Demerol was very pleasant..


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It's an easy thing to tell people to have propofol and they recover faster. Tell that to someone who has a $5000 family deductible than an additional 30% co pay up to a $10000 max in network per year cost.

The fact is most people will sleep off versed/fentanyl and be fine the next day.

If propofol were super safe and people are fine to go to back to work right away. What are your pacu nurses telling the patient? Are they telling them they can drive home themselves? Are they telling them they can go back to work right away lifting heavy construction material? Hell no! Liability reasons folks. Centers that used propofol only still tell patients not to drive and take it easy rest of the day.

If your center doesn't change the pacu discharge instructions for those having propofol only vs versed/fentanyl. Than what's the real benefit here?

The end game is vast majority of patients having versed/fentanyl will be fine the next day. They are instructed they can drive to work the next day. Which is the same as you tell patients having propofol.

Please let me know of any centers that use propofol that allow patients to drive themselves home and go back to work lifting heavy equipment. I'd love to know about them. (Obviously there are patients that will do that but they do it against medical advice) so we can wash our hands off if there are any problems.

With all due respect aneftp I cant even imagine the pain it would be to discharge 20-50 patients per day who just received 5-8 of versed and 100 of demerol. NOt to mention the nausea and vomiting.
With propofol sedation, you are basically awake after you get the drug. NO hangover or grogginess whatsoever. Pacu job is a snap with propofol
 
The device is approved only for PS 1 and 2 patients. That will exclude a huge swath of patients. Unless those guidelines change or are not followed or people become "aggressive" about what constitutes PS 2 vs PS 3, the appeal of the device will be limited.
 
I always though remimidazolam would be an optimal sedative for GI cases. Likely not in bolus form. I think the context sensitive half life is less then propofol. Sedasys should be viewed like a new program on the ventilator or a TCI pump great gizmo to keep the anesthesiolgist hands free to be paying attention to the patient. This device should reinforce our vigilance not replace it.
Onset of remimazolam is longer than propofol. Also CSHT pertains more to a prolonged infusion which does not apply to a scope. Plus a high cost of drug which would be likely until its off patent. Propofol wins in every aspect other than cardiovascular stability and lack of reversal agent
 
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Propofol does win. I use it solely for Colonoscopies and EGD's. Its very clean sedation and the recovery is far faster then patients receiving midazolam/fentanyl/demerol. Where I work/live we have to recover the patients and do the cases. When the Propofol is shut off usually when the surgeon is removing the scope I turn it off about sigmoid/L colon. My patients are awake 2-3 minutes after the scope has been pulled out of the anus. How are you using the Propofol for scopes? Hand bolus the entire case or are you setting up infusions? Here I set up infusions colonoscopies which take 15-20 minutes I usually bolus 1mg/kg sometimes more sometimes less then put them on an infusion. We may do 3-4 scopes a day sometimes. Very slow optempo.
 
Propofol does win. I use it solely for Colonoscopies and EGD's. Its very clean sedation and the recovery is far faster then patients receiving midazolam/fentanyl/demerol. Where I work/live we have to recover the patients and do the cases. When the Propofol is shut off usually when the surgeon is removing the scope I turn it off about sigmoid/L colon. My patients are awake 2-3 minutes after the scope has been pulled out of the anus. How are you using the Propofol for scopes? Hand bolus the entire case or are you setting up infusions? Here I set up infusions colonoscopies which take 15-20 minutes I usually bolus 1mg/kg sometimes more sometimes less then put them on an infusion. We may do 3-4 scopes a day sometimes. Very slow optempo.
I dont think you can use the word anus on sdn.
 
Propofol does win. I use it solely for Colonoscopies and EGD's. Its very clean sedation and the recovery is far faster then patients receiving midazolam/fentanyl/demerol. Where I work/live we have to recover the patients and do the cases. When the Propofol is shut off usually when the surgeon is removing the scope I turn it off about sigmoid/L colon. My patients are awake 2-3 minutes after the scope has been pulled out of the anus. How are you using the Propofol for scopes? Hand bolus the entire case or are you setting up infusions? Here I set up infusions colonoscopies which take 15-20 minutes I usually bolus 1mg/kg sometimes more sometimes less then put them on an infusion. We may do 3-4 scopes a day sometimes. Very slow optempo.
I was in GI today. I usually give 2 mg versed. I realize with propofol you don't need it, but I like having some anxiolysis on board and amnestic as well as decrease propofol requirements. I start at 100 mcg/kg/min while getting everything hooked up. Once GI grabs the scope I give 20 mg bolus and right when he goes to start I give another 20 mg bolus. Then periodic bolus during case.
 
I was in GI today. I usually give 2 mg versed. I realize with propofol you don't need it, but I like having some anxiolysis on board and amnestic as well as decrease propofol requirements. I start at 100 mcg/kg/min while getting everything hooked up. Once GI grabs the scope I give 20 mg bolus and right when he goes to start I give another 20 mg bolus. Then periodic bolus during case.
Versed delays discharge, and in a fast-paced GI unit it slows things down too much. It took me years to be convinced to drop fent/versed/propofol and go with straight propofol. The only other thing I use routinely is IV lidocaine - 60-1oomg up front on all the EGD's and most of the colons, 2nd dose if needed. Hey, I'm an old Emory boy - lidocaine cures the common cold, venereal warts, and just about anything else that ails ya, along with being a great local anesthetic and anti-arrhythmic.
 
I heard at emory lidocaine cures Ebola too 🙂. I run my infusions from 150-200. Nothing else other then more white if the patient moves too much. Patients all wake up great.
 
Why Demerol? Why not morphine, or dilaudid?

Does anyone know?
I think you are probably being facetious but Im guessing its probably due to its anticholinergic properties?...
 
You guys use a pump for endo? Seems like a waste of time and tubing.
There are pumps already in endo. Keep in mind I am doing acafemic cases with teaching fellow so it takes a long time. It takes 1 min to set up tubing then I am mostly hands free. I would guess in PP if these that 15m I would just give a few blouses of prop instead of drip
 
I'm in PP and use a pump for endoscopy. No matter how slick some GI guys are, sometimes it just takes time and/or is more difficult than anticipated. So if it's a 2 hour ERCP like I had the other day, I'm on cruise control the entire time. If it's a 10 min EGD or colonoscopy, I have free hands to chart and don't need to worry about giving additional boluses and whatnot. Plus, an infusion by definition gives a more stable plane of anesthesia while avoiding the peaks and troughs. And as someone mentioned, it literally takes 2 minutes to set up, so why not?
 
I'm in PP and use a pump for endoscopy. No matter how slick some GI guys are, sometimes it just takes time and/or is more difficult than anticipated. So if it's a 2 hour ERCP like I had the other day, I'm on cruise control the entire time. If it's a 10 min EGD or colonoscopy, I have free hands to chart and don't need to worry about giving additional boluses and whatnot. Plus, an infusion by definition gives a more stable plane of anesthesia while avoiding the peaks and troughs. And as someone mentioned, it literally takes 2 minutes to set up, so why not?
Chart during an EGD? Are you kidding me? THat is the last thing Im worried about during an egd or a colonocopy. THe patient requires your undivided attention almost all of the time. Screw the pump or the tubing!!. MY thumb is my pump. Were you in the room with joan rivers?
 
Chart during an EGD? Are you kidding me? THat is the last thing Im worried about during an egd or a colonocopy. THe patient requires your undivided attention almost all of the time. Screw the pump or the tubing!!. MY thumb is my pump. Were you in the room with joan rivers?
How do you chart your rate? Do you write all the microboluses or do you chart a thumb infusion rate?
 
Conveniently the Washington post avoided mentioning the cost of the sedasys machine. But clearly mentioned the salary of anesthesiologist. Washington post may be getting some money to do corporate lobbying on the part of J and J?

Remember the robot that was marketed years ago to assist in laparoscopic cholycystectomy, ? Hermes, the surgeon used to spend more time talking to that stupid robot and it would increase the surgical time. It was marketed as the greatest thing to the hospitals because u don't have to Pay someone to assist. Well those machines are not that much in demand.
Yeah, robots bring them on and may be they can do my night calls. When there is a problem call the1-800 number and try to trouble shoot.
Can the politicians mandate to use sedasys machine on all colonoscopies? May be Jand J try influencing theirwashington buddies.
 
Why cant the sedasys be used as a tool similar to a pump. Open it up to all patients based on anesthesiolgist recommendation. Put a crna or aa in the room. Then providers have their hands free to watch the airway chart and ensure safe care of the patient. It should not replace us. Sure we could do this with a pump....
 
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