Mainstream media reports Pathologist shortage is 'delaying cancer diagnosis'

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As reported by the BBC in a survey of the Royal College of Pathologists:

Pathologist shortage 'delaying cancer diagnosis'

Job seekers in the US take heed. If nothing is on the horizon here...the UK has a very high standard of living with nearly comparable income :pompous:

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As reported by the BBC in a survey of the Royal College of Pathologists:

Pathologist shortage 'delaying cancer diagnosis'

Job seekers in the US take heed. If nothing is on the horizon here...the UK has a very high standard of living with nearly comparable income :pompous:

If pathologists were paid by the case/work they do instead of being paid by the year there would be no shortage.

FAKE NEWS!

Just like the looming pathology US shortage— FAKE NEWS BY BIG ACADEMIA!

FLEE PATHOLOGY NOW!
 
Out of curiosity, how easy or hard is it to move to the UK to work for a US trained physician?
 
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If pathologists were paid by the case/work they do instead of being paid by the year there would be no shortage.

FAKE NEWS!

Just like the looming pathology US shortage— FAKE NEWS BY BIG ACADEMIA!

FLEE PATHOLOGY NOW!

God you're annoying....
 
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BBC is more reputable than other fake news outlets in my opinion. If a story like this is making ripples in mainstream media, I would add more credence to it vs a report from the CAP. And, the patient did say it took over a month to get her biopsy results because the hospital told her TAT is delayed due to staff shortages. You never hear of a lab saying that in the US. Plus, that kind of TAT would put a lab here out of business fast.

As a side not, I've heard through the grapevine (don't know actual stats) that the job market for pathologists is better across the pond, fwiw...
 
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I am trying to save the profession! Why don’t you help? Join the team!!

By complaining? How about encouraging excellent medical students to go into the field to further advance the field, rather than saying "FLEE PATHOLOGY NOW" in ever post. It gets old and its corny.
 
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What exactly are the new NHS screening programs they are blaming for the shortage? Seems like here in the US, we are telling people that our screening programs are doing more harm than good, thus less pathologists needed.

I have inspected labs here in the US that have turnaround times of nearly a month. The one I inspected 6 years ago serves indigent people in a large city.

Thrombus is pretty cool. :thumbup:
 
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What exactly are the new NHS screening programs they are blaming for the shortage? Seems like here in the US, we are telling people that our screening programs are doing more harm than good, thus less pathologists needed.

I have inspected labs here in the US that have turnaround times of nearly a month. The one I inspected 6 years ago serves indigent people in a large city.

Thrombus is pretty cool. :thumbup:


Nothing cool about some dude or gal wining all the time like a little child. At some point you grow up. I guess there's a reason after all why some people have trouble finding jobs and now I see it...
 
As reported by the BBC in a survey of the Royal College of Pathologists:

Pathologist shortage 'delaying cancer diagnosis'

Job seekers in the US take heed. If nothing is on the horizon here...the UK has a very high standard of living with nearly comparable income :pompous:

fascinating story.

But Im not sure on your second part, if by "comparable income" you mean an average salary of a board certified pathologist in the UK of 90,000 pound sterling with a TOP END salary of 103,000 pounds annually which is equivalent to $118,000-$130,000 per year vs. a known average income of practicing US pathologists of $286,000 and a UK cost of living which provides 12% LESS purchasing power on average than the United States....let's do the math on this for a moment:

The British National Health Service would need to increase pathologist pay by +174% to be comparable.

For a $118,000 I would not even show up at an actual job site, like ever. I would assume telecommuting from a beach in Spain is not an option? Im not even sure I would do that though, especially if they dump trucked 50-100 cases a day on me bc they are massively understaffed.

To put it in even more perspective: For your craptastic 90,000 pound sterling, 30,000-40,000 will be eaten by rent, another 10,000 for transportation and 20,0000 per year for food and drink and other household stuff meaning HOPEFULLY you have a significant other who will become a sex worker so you can pay your obscene tax bill because your take home is precisely 60,215 pounds.

~Let's pretend that the UK all school is totally free (which it's not, by a long shot) and the US pathologist is servicing 1200/mo in student debt. The monthly take home pay in the US is still over twice with a purchasing power advantage in US dollars that is quite material.

~There is no economic model where a UK Pathologist is anyway equivalent to one here. In terms of purchasing power, a UK Pathologist is a literal equivalent to a foreman of foreign agricultural workers aka a "Bracero". Another equivalent to a UK Pathologist would be the head manager of an In-n-Out burger franchise who make roughly 90,000 US in my area but have more purchasing power and better tax sheltering options than what you have in the UK.

~A UK Pathologist is far lower compensated than senior nursing staff in the US, by roughly -30%.

~A UK Pathologist at the absolute pinnacle of their career is compensated less than the average owner of a US plumbing business by a massive amount.

~A UK junior staff Pathologist is less compensated than the average 19-year old female stripper in Las Vegas.

~A UK senior Pathologist makes less than a California police detective once overtime pay is considered.

In case somehow you think that the UK makes up for this incredible deficit on the back end somehow, they don't. The UK pension system is utter trash. They actually BRAG about giving doctors a pathetic 53,000 pounds per year pension BUT only because they raised the the retirement age by 5 years and dumped the 150,000 pound career end bonus they used to give around 5 years ago.

There are a million different jobs I would do before sinking to become a UK Pathologist:
I would for example,
~set up a surfboard rental company in Baja California
~do basic research, anywhere, and just smoke weed all day
~sell military arms internationally to 3rd world countries
~work at Walmart for the free stuff
etc.


But to put a personal spin on this, the British government would need to pay me what the cumulative annual salary of their most senior pathologist earns EACH MONTH to be anywhere near comparable.


I will also say I am likely of the very few American pathologists on SDN who went through the full process of applying to work at a NHS hospital so Im not simply talking out of my rectum on this matter.
 
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I guess the grass isn't greener on the other side [of the pond] when you put it that way...:penguin: However, you could say that there is some overlap (albeit small) on the tail end of our bell curve i.e. instructor/junior prof. level positions at academia making 90 - 120K that we know of. But for sure, the pension, tax structure, cost of living over there sounds like it does rape you. My comparison was also meant more relatively speaking; that they are a first world country and in terms of the global scale of physician compensation, the UK is in the upper tier e.g. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. I mean, it's not like it's the Gambia or something.

Maybe that's why there's such a shortage there...
 
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I guess the grass isn't greener on the other side [of the pond] when you put it that way...:penguin: However, you could say that there is some overlap (albeit small) on the tail end of our bell curve i.e. instructor/junior prof. level positions at academia making 90 - 120K that we know of. But for sure, the pension, tax structure, cost of living over there sounds like it does rape you. My comparison was also meant more relatively speaking; that they are a first world country and in terms of the global scale of physician compensation, the UK is in the upper tier e.g. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. I mean, it's not like it's the Gambia or something.

Maybe that's why there's such a shortage there...

125k to live in London is like 40k to live in a small midwestern city. The mailman and fry cook gets paid more!!

I might retire there after running the rat race. I will sit on my office couch and watch soap operas and talk shows. Let those colons sit in buckets once and for all!!
 
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I guess the grass isn't greener on the other side [of the pond] when you put it that way...:penguin: However, you could say that there is some overlap (albeit small) on the tail end of our bell curve i.e. instructor/junior prof. level positions at academia making 90 - 120K that we know of. But for sure, the pension, tax structure, cost of living over there sounds like it does rape you. My comparison was also meant more relatively speaking; that they are a first world country and in terms of the global scale of physician compensation, the UK is in the upper tier e.g. Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. I mean, it's not like it's the Gambia or something.

Maybe that's why there's such a shortage there...

No, again. Let's dig into the actual data for a second here.

UCLA Pathology faculty: Dr. Dawn Ward, I literally just picked her at random because she looks youthful.
Dawn C. Ward, MD : Laboratory Medicine - Los Angeles, CA
She graduated from Loma Linda in 2008, BC 2014 in Pathology/Transfusion medicine.
Then: 'dawn ward' search results | Transparent California
the AFTER her fellowship she made $230,000, the next year 2016 she pulled down $242,000 and last year $249,000.
Given the wonders of the internet we know EXACTLY what she would have made at University College Hospital, London: exactly 76,761 pound sterling, that is $101,657 at current exchange rates.

Cost of Living Comparison Between Los Angeles, CA, United States And London, United Kingdom

Then make a COLA calculation: $101,657 in London is actually only $89,458 per year in Los Angeles vs her received $230,000 first year pay package.

Which means Dr. Ward made a whopping +158% premium being an American Pathologist. That is actually greater than the percent difference between the manager of a Hooters franchise and the actual mayor of Los Angeles.

But it gets better as almost all academic jr. faculty have tons of off service time to diversify their academic career, a virtually unknown concept for jr. academic staff in the NHS who sit in massive glass mills pushing slides like trained monkeys 8-10+ hours a day.

Lest ANYONE reading this become confused, Socialist medical systems UNIVERSALLY have resulted in massive and completely unrestrained downward pressure on the income of physicians. There is no exception to this whatsoever, anywhere. The highest physician income is by no chance in the place which likely represents the greatest example of Capitalist healthcare: Singapore. DO NOT think for a second all these idiotic polls which show places like the Netherlands or Australia as having super high physician income are in anyway accurate, they arent as they co-mingle resident salary in the US to bring down our average income but due to the way they classify and train physicians elsewhere dont do that for other countries. (We know this because we have actual medscape compensation data)
 
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the only way folks make real money in G.B, most of Europe, Asia, etc. is
outside of the confines of the socialist system of medical reimbursement.
to make $249k/yr triple board w 3 yr exp is obscene. if she is “average”, she has $190k debt. everybody just needs to say “enough” and conduct business like the rest of the world.
 
DO NOT think for a second all these idiotic polls which show places like the Netherlands or Australia as having super high physician income are in anyway accurate,

Health care costs are the highest in the world here, so it only makes sense if the physicians are compensated accordingly. And those polls are exactly what I was thinking of: the US is ranked #3 and the UK #6.

The top 10 countries with the highest salary for doctors

So does this mean it's a false flag and we're #1...? U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

As a side note, I was in communication (though never interviewed) once for a job in Singapore when I was coming out of training and the starting pay was > 300K (USD). And, if we're talking uber-level incomes working abroad, I've heard the oil-rich countries in the Gulf of Arabia pay mad bank for U.S. trained docs...
 
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I am trying to save the profession! Why don’t you help? Join the team!!

Are you though? Do you actually do anything to help the profession in the real world or just complain on a message board?
 
Health care costs are the highest in the world here, so it only makes sense if the physicians are compensated accordingly. And those polls are exactly what I was thinking of: the US is ranked #3 and the UK #6.

The top 10 countries with the highest salary for doctors

So does this mean it's a false flag and we're #1...? U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A!

As a side note, I was in communication (though never interviewed) once for a job in Singapore when I was coming out of training and the starting pay was > 300K (USD). And, if we're talking uber-level incomes working abroad, I've heard the oil-rich countries in the Gulf of Arabia pay mad bank for U.S. trained docs...

Not really a false flag per se, but yeah this is pure propaganda and bullsh-t. Netherlands has the highest salary with general internists making 117,000 U.S. dollar equivalents, but there is no market in the U.S where a general internist commonly makes that little. It is off by at least 30% and on purpose. They are trying to enact socialist healthcare partially from within, by clouding the minds of nurses and doctors with false data sets that reassure them they might even make MORE under socialism. That is a bold faced lie on every account.

Modern medical leadership in the U.S. is completely infiltrated by a Socialist 5th Column, they operate everyday working to manipulate the psychological framework young physicians and nurses are indoctrinated under.

Outright slavery invokes resistance, but cults can enslave even large populations by redirecting self-interest towards a greater purpose.
 
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Are you though? Do you actually do anything to help the profession in the real world or just complain on a message board?

Where do you suggest that I can reach a broader audience? Isn't this the real world? Exposing Big Academia and their self serving agendas sucking the life out of the profession IS THE REAL WORLD!!!
 
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Where do you suggest that I can reach a broader audience? Isn't this the real world? Exposing Big Academia and their self serving agendas sucking the life out of the profession IS THE REAL WORLD!!!

nah....this ain't it chief
 
They are trying to enact socialist healthcare partially from within, by clouding the minds of nurses and doctors with false data sets that reassure them they might even make MORE under socialism. That is a bold faced lie on every account.

Modern medical leadership in the U.S. is completely infiltrated by a Socialist 5th Column, they operate everyday working to manipulate the psychological framework young physicians and nurses are indoctrinated under.

USA is the only "first world" country that allows people die simply because they can't pay for treatment. American healthcare miserably fails its most vulnerable patients.

Yeah, socialist medicine is so evil....
 
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Just my opinion Pug, but the phraseology “allows people to die.....”
labels you and hurts your credibility.
 
USA is the only "first world" country that allows people die simply because they can't pay for treatment. American healthcare miserably fails its most vulnerable patients.

Yeah, socialist medicine is so evil....

Not only is this patently false in practice, the exact opposite is true in reality. In Socialist healthcare models, patients die in droves simply waiting for proper healthcare, surgery, dialysis, imaging, you name it. I have seen it literally with my own eyes as European physicians, constrained by the limits of their system, just push back appointments with terminal patients because they know the wait times will kill them anyway.

So the narrative that somehow in the US people die due to lack of payment is quite literally propaganda.
 
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Life expectancy (Sweden): 82.55 years
Life expectancy (UK): 81.60 years
Life expectancy (US): 78.74 years
 
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Not only is this patently false in practice, the exact opposite is true in reality. In Socialist healthcare models, patients die in droves simply waiting for proper healthcare, surgery, dialysis, imaging, you name it. I have seen it literally with my own eyes as European physicians, constrained by the limits of their system, just push back appointments with terminal patients because they know the wait times will kill them anyway.

So the narrative that somehow in the US people die due to lack of payment is quite literally propaganda.
I don't think it's completely them vs us. Plenty of people in the US with expensive, low-quality health insurance or no insurance skip treatment or avoid going to the doctor to avoid the expenses, likely resulting in worse outcomes or even death. We could call it a freedom of choice, but the end result is the same.
 
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Life expectancy (Sweden): 82.55 years
Life expectancy (UK): 81.60 years
Life expectancy (US): 78.74 years

The US has so many unhealthy MORBIDLY FAT and LAZY people compared to Europe.
The great US hospitals are lined up with foreign nationals getting our #1, Superb, innovative quality health care because their own countries' have Sh1thole health care!!
 
The US has so many unhealthy MORBIDLY FAT and LAZY people compared to Europe.
The great US hospitals are lined up with foreign nationals getting our #1, Superb, innovative quality health care because their own countries' have Sh1thole health care!!

Wealthy foreign nationals. The US has excellent health care if you can pay for it. A lot of Americans can’t.
 
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The US has so many unhealthy MORBIDLY FAT and LAZY people compared to Europe.
The great US hospitals are lined up with foreign nationals getting our #1, Superb, innovative quality health care because their own countries' have Sh1thole health care!!
The UK has basically the same rate of obesity as the US, so that argument doesn't hold up there. And the foreign nationals coming here for healthcare are yes, wealthy, and also generally from much poorer countries than Europe - more like the Middle East and Asia. So that argument isn't working that great, either.
 
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The UK has basically the same rate of obesity as the US, so that argument doesn't hold up there. And the foreign nationals coming here for healthcare are yes, wealthy, and also generally from much poorer countries than Europe - more like the Middle East and Asia. So that argument isn't working that great, either.

Notice I said FAT and LAZY. Have you been to Europe? People walk everywhere. Diet, exercise, drug use, alcohol use are huge factors in Americans unhealthiness. One other factor --- attitude towards going to the doctor. Many Americans myself included hate going there for reasons much more so than cost. We value independence and self reliance. I haven't seen this attitude as prevalent in my association with the Euro's. I personally don't like all my info stored forever in electronic format either access by who the hell knows! It used to be safely tucked away in the doctor's file cabinet.
 
Wealthy foreign nationals. The US has excellent health care if you can pay for it. A lot of Americans can’t.

Correction: A lot of Americans won't. These same Americans pay extraordinary fees for i-phones, cigarettes, junk food, television and work very little compared to the hours that I put in to get to where I am!
 
comparing US to UK, Germnay, et al EU nations in terms of quality of healthcare requires more than some random convenient statistic(s)...there are innumerable variables ( United Kingdom vs. United States - Country Comparison ), and assuming some one-size-fits-all healthcare bill is going to root out waste, optimize all outcomes, and save money is just ridiculous. Jesus we're talking about a third of a billion people.

I'm happy for Sweden and the Swedish people that their nice, homogeneous little island barely larger than New York City can have a higher life expectancy...but let's not kid ourselves that we're comparing apples to apples.
 
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Life expectancy (Sweden): 82.55 years
Life expectancy (UK): 81.60 years
Life expectancy (US): 78.74 years

Im not sure what you even remotely think this proves. Life expectancy is so insanely skewed in the US by inner city urban gun violence, unconstrained immigration with 3rd world countries with no pre-natal care, rampant drug problems with a sprawling lower class the fact that the US life expectancy is less than 5% less than Sweden essentially proves the point of the utter failure of socialist healthcare.

Once again, Singapore which has a hybridized Capitalist-based Healthcare system has a higher life expectancy than any country other than Switzerland and Japan.
 
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Life expectancy is a useless stat. Who cares if they can keep you alive if your quality of life sucks? Live hard, die young is my mantra.
 
By complaining? How about encouraging excellent medical students to go into the field to further advance the field, rather than saying "FLEE PATHOLOGY NOW" in ever post. It gets old and its corny.

This is a relatively harmless place for people to screech about how the end of the world is coming. It's a false assumption that an excellent medical student is: a. here at all, and b. going to be swayed by people who look at the entire world in such cynical ways that they make Marvin from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy look like the head cheerleader at a high school pep rally.

Trust me, no one is having any effect on good medical students here. The best candidates I interview either post/watch to encourage themselves that they are going to be fine since they aren't as psycho as the general aura here (which is usually true), or they come once, laugh or shake their heads and then get on with being excellent medical students. This board has literally no good information for anyone actually qualified to be a pathologist, and people who are going to become good pathologists see that fairly quickly. It DOES have some good entertainment value which is why you do see the odd qualified and functional person here. However, good medical students leaving the profession because an old man is constantly yelling "get off patholoy's lawn"? nope.
 
This is a relatively harmless place for people to screech about how the end of the world is coming. It's a false assumption that an excellent medical student is: a. here at all, and b. going to be swayed by people who look at the entire world in such cynical ways that they make Marvin from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy look like the head cheerleader at a high school pep rally.

Trust me, no one is having any effect on good medical students here. The best candidates I interview either post/watch to encourage themselves that they are going to be fine since they aren't as psycho as the general aura here (which is usually true), or they come once, laugh or shake their heads and then get on with being excellent medical students. This board has literally no good information for anyone actually qualified to be a pathologist, and people who are going to become good pathologists see that fairly quickly. It DOES have some good entertainment value which is why you do see the odd qualified and functional person here. However, good medical students leaving the profession because an old man is constantly yelling "get off patholoy's lawn"? nope.

So sayeth the academic neuropathologist.

And, I think I have posted a hell of a lot of useful info on this board over the past 8 years or so.
 
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So sayeth the academic neuropathologist.

And, I think I have posted a hell of a lot of useful info on this board over the past 8 years or so.

Well, I stand corrected on that front. But my overall point remains the same... though your assumption about my practice setting is 100% wrong.
 
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This is a relatively harmless place for people to screech about how the end of the world is coming. It's a false assumption that an excellent medical student is: a. here at all, and b. going to be swayed by people who look at the entire world in such cynical ways that they make Marvin from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy look like the head cheerleader at a high school pep rally.

If I had read this forum as a medical student it might have scared me away. The number of insane, bitter, and/or grossly misinformed people posting here is too damn high.

Also, to those of you making seven figures and crowing about it publically here like roosters: I congratulate you on whatever accident of timing (or, in the exceptional case, skill) has allowed you to feast on the rotting corpse of our fee-for-service system, but you might want to keep your income to yourself. It is unseemly, given the current political climate and the public nature of this forum.
 
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As a medical student this forum is very discouraging. That's where my initial concerns stemmed from. All I heard was avoid this field. No jobs. AI will destroy it. No one cares about pathologists. Corporization. Blah blah. So I took it to heart and applied Rads. Who knows if I made the right decision but at least I don't feel guilty for my choice and the Rads SDN forum is more pleasant.
 
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As a medical student this forum is very discouraging. That's where my initial concerns stemmed from. All I heard was avoid this field. No jobs. AI will destroy it. No one cares about pathologists. Corporization. Blah blah. So I took it to heart and applied Rads. Who knows if I made the right decision but at least I don't feel guilty for my choice and the Rads SDN forum is more pleasant.

And just why might the Rads SDN Forum be more pleasant?
 
As a medical student this forum is very discouraging. That's where my initial concerns stemmed from. All I heard was avoid this field. No jobs. AI will destroy it. No one cares about pathologists. Corporization. Blah blah. So I took it to heart and applied Rads. Who knows if I made the right decision but at least I don't feel guilty for my choice and the Rads SDN forum is more pleasant.

You let a dumb forum over talking to real pathologists face to face influence your choice? That is sad/stupid especially if you actually liked path. Also, AI in path is no where close to replacing anyone. If anything, AI utilization in rads would happen before path.
 
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As a medical student this forum is very discouraging. That's where my initial concerns stemmed from. All I heard was avoid this field. No jobs. AI will destroy it. No one cares about pathologists. Corporization. Blah blah. So I took it to heart and applied Rads. Who knows if I made the right decision but at least I don't feel guilty for my choice and the Rads SDN forum is more pleasant.

I applaud you for making a wise decision. If I had an 88305 for every pathologist trainee that has texted me and said that they wished they had listened to me, I would be a busy pathologist instead of one fighting for specimens against corporations, kickback schemes, and other big institutions. FPN! MPGA! BCAP!
 
Of all the reasons to chose Rads over Path, and there is alot..AI isnt one of them folks.

AI in radiology is an entire generation ahead of where it is in Pathology. To translate, AI radiology will appear decades before AI pathologists. Both will involve replacement of M.D.s eventually from these fields but the time frame could be even a century from now, who knows. Eventually our sun will die as well you realize.

I think pathologists maybe one of the last humans on the medical staff to be honest, we are few in number meaning AI replacements wont be cost efficient for a long time. You will have AI replacements of specialty surgery, radiology, emergency medicine/trauma and the like before path only because we are so niche its not really worth the Ominassiah/Machine God's time to eliminate us. Heck the Machine God may even keep us around as a servitor-type human to tend to all the AI robotic radiologists! there is hope!

adeptus_mechanicus_by_findood-d7ue58j.jpg
 
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You let a dumb forum over talking to real pathologists face to face influence your choice? That is sad/stupid especially if you actually liked path. Also, AI in path is no where close to replacing anyone. If anything, AI utilization in rads would happen before path.

I "like" a lot of things. I like basketball. I like calligraphy. Should I aim for the NBA? Are those good investments? No. Pathology is not a good investment for a US MD with good scores. No matter how much I like it. 6 years of training and new grads are making 180-200k? That's a joke. Meanwhile you look up radiology job postings for new grads and you see something to the tune of "8-5 pm, 12 weeks vacation, occasional weekend call, 500k base salary". Same lifestyle, similar type of job yet better pay and better market. Sure pay won't always be this high but itll always be higher than pathology on average. As will the job market. Volume is higher, there's more flexibility and new imaging modalities come out all the time that are getting better and better (ie decreased need for biopsies). AI won't make a difference in my lifetime. If anything it'll make my life easier and double my reads
 
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