Make your views about the DO degree known

[group_theory]

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Members don't see this ad.

This was posted on the AOA President's Blog on May 4, 2007.

http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php?itemid=2585

Call for DO Degree Interviewees
Many of you responded to the post about the DO Degree. As a result, Dr. Strosnider has asked staff of The DO magazine to look into doing a potential article on this topic to discuss its viability and find out which osteopathic organizations/groups support this change. If you're interested in discussing your point of view on this topic, please contact Barb Greenwald, AOA staff editor, at [email protected].

 

[Dr JPH]

A place to vent. People already do that here.

 

[(nicedream)]

Where is the original "post about the DO degree" ?

 

[newbie04]

Link with 133 comments: http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php?itemid=17#c

Monday, October 09, 2006
The DO Degree
There's been much talk recently about the DO degree on the AOA Daily Report Blog. John Crosby, AOA Executive Director, provides information on the DO degree designation there. But since Miles brought it up on this blog as well...I don't know, Miles. I am proud to be a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine and do not feel like an Osteopathic Medical Doctor. May be a small point to some, however many osteopathic physicians agree.

Stro.

_____________________________________________________________

Here are some new discussions stemming from the original:

Link with comments: http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php?itemid=21#c

Thursday, November 09, 2006
More on the DO Degree
To all:

Quite an interesting discussion. I have just returned yesterday from a busy month of travel and leave this afternoon for the IAMRA meeting in New Zealand. I am not sure if I can monitor this while there so I may be out of pocket until returning on the 21st. Before I leave I want to make one final response to this issue. Personally I prefer my degree designation which is DO and is currently recognized world wide as the designated degree for Osteopathic Graduates. However I have no heartburn nor would have any great anxiety if the profession (yes the majority of our profession) would seek the change of the degree designation now recognized.

Remember that this is a complicated process and could become very expansive, expensive and difficult to complete. I have talked to the "experts" at the AOA and offer here the paths an effort like this could be undertaken.

This effort could be started by several entities through a multitude of actions. At the COM level, the issue would need the support of the Academic Officials (Deans) and the student representative organizations (e.g. COSGP, SOMA). Strong support at the COM level is required in order for the AOA's accrediting arm, the Commission on Osteopathic Accreditation (AOA COCA - which is entirely separate from AOA Board control) to launch any preliminary exploratory studies. This is the reason I have previously stated that if you are so fervent about this issue you should go to your deans to pursue your desire.

At the state level, interested individuals would need to work with their state associations to make certain that the new designation would be accepted by state legislatures and medical boards.

At the federal level the AOA would need to coordinate with federal officials to make certain that there is no loss of status in federal statutes and regulations by changing the degree designation.

And finally the issue would need to be reviewed by appropriate bureaus, committees, councils and the AOA Board, as well as COCA.

In conclusion, personally I have discussed this issue with hundreds of students and practicing DOs over the past month, and most all did not agree with the notion of a DOM, MDO or OMD degree designation.

Regardless of your personal desires, I hope that you are proud of your chosen profession, as I am, and will provide the public with the greatest possible care, Osteopathic health care.

Good health to all, and I wish you success in your chosen profession.

Stro.

Link with comments: http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php?itemid=2065#c

Wednesday, January 24, 2007
DO Degree Discussion Continues
Again, thank you for all of your comments regarding this issue. I wanted to respond to a recent comment through a new post, but remember that there are times that I will respond within the comments section as well.

This is a challange currently being addressed by the AOA and Osteopathic Associations from other countries (like Germany, Australia, and New Zealand). DOs in most other countries that do not recognize the American DO are registered as Osteopaths and not Doctors of Osteopathy or Osteopathic Medicine. I addressed this situation in Germany and stated the confusion for patients is that when seeing a DO are they seeing someone with a few week course, a few years of training beyond college or a fully licensed physician. Most were in agreement and felt that the current work with the WHO to recognize and set the standards for recognition of the American trained Osteopathic Physician versus the Osteopath with varying credentials. The AOA is working closely with the WHO to use our standards and definition of an Osteopathic Physician and to identify them versus Osteopaths or Chiropractors in all countries. The work is progressing nicely with the next meeting this March in Milan, Italy. Watch DO-Online for further updates, and I feel that in the near future our degree will be designated and recognized by the WHO and American Osteopathic Physicians will be able to practice world wide.

Link with comments: http://blogs.do-online.org/aoapresident.php?itemid=19#c

BACK to the BLOG
I have finally returned from the Las Vegas meeting, and was so busy there that I did not have the opportunity to participate like I wanted to, however, I have read all the comments and appreciate all of the thoughts. I know that the debate and passion about the degree designation has been discussed for the past 10 - 15 years, if not longer. Remember that the American Osteopathic Association has no say in the degree or degree designation granted by the individual schools. The schools are given the right to grant a degree by the various state educational departments. For example here at PCSOM, Pikeville College applied for the right to grant the DO Degree and it was granted and recognized by the Kentucky Department of Higher Education.

Whether it be DOM, OMD MDO, or any other designation, the college would have to apply to the Department for the right to grant another degree and would need to appeal to the state to recognize the degree designation in lieu of DO degree, which is currently recognized by the state, the Board of Medical Licensure and in state statutes and regulations. Not a simple task. I would suggest that those who feel so strongly about the topic should go to their deans and seek the change. I personally may agree or disagree with your rationale for a change, but the issue has to be addressed at the institutional level and not through the AOA. I would think that if a specific institution were to seek change, the AOA and especially AACOM would certainly consider assisting the institution if possible.

Interesting enough I was in a cab in Las Vegas when my wife Jo Ann pointed to a sign above an office on Fremont Street. I coudn't get a photo with my phone because the cab couldn't stop in the traffic. It was Michael Chen (not positive about the spelling) DOM. So it seems at least in Nevada, the DOM degree designation stands for Doctor of Oriental Medicine. The sign stated that accupuncture, massage, and other therapies were provided.

I will try to keep current, so please continue to comment and I will try to respond.

Stro.

 

[CommanderRiker]

Commander Riker here.

I think the D.O. nomenclature is outdated. It should be M.D. now.

Riker out.

 

[polynikesdb]

xxx

 

[CommanderRiker]

the fact that most students graduating from osteopathic colleges do not integrate OMM/OPP into their existence as a physician illuminates a societal, cultural problem, not a degree nomenclature problem.

Good point but fixing this problem is like asking everyone to stop eating fast food. It's not going to happen.

90% of all osteopaths want to end the distinction between us and allopaths.

 

[jp104]

Commander Riker here.

I think the D.O. nomenclature is outdated. It should be M.D. now.

Riker out.

 

[DragonWell]

Good point but fixing this problem is like asking everyone to stop eating fast food. It's not going to happen.

90% of all osteopaths want to end the distinction between us and allopaths.

Source?

 

[jp104]

Source?

The borg?

Oh noes!

 

[polynikesdb]

xxx

 

[group_theory]

This topic brings out lots of heated discussion and passion

Focus your discussion on the degree, not on each other. If you are really passionate about this debate, why don't you contact Ms Greenwald (the AOA staff editor - email address in first post of thread) to make your thoughts known.

 

[CommanderRiker]

Actually, you have it backwards. 90% of all osteopaths want to keep the DO designation.

We can try a simple experiment. Let's ask D.O.s if they would rather be John Doe, M.D., or John Doe, D.O. Also, the D.O.s who are asked this question should be less than a year out of residency.

I guarantee the first choice would be picked by 90%. 😀 Hence:

"You will lose." - Ivan Drago, U.S.S.R. Heavyweight Champion, Rocky IV.

 

[CommanderRiker]

Are they really osteopaths, then?

If someone wants to end the distinction between osteopathic medicine and allopathic medicine, and they have a DO degree, then I do not think they are an osteopath.

"This isn't the Federation, Picard." - Chancellor Kempek, Klingon Empire.

This isn't the 1950s, my friend. The D.O. degree is no longer truly osteopathic.

 

[DocBR]

We can try a simple experiment. Let's ask D.O.s if they would rather be John Doe, M.D., or John Doe, D.O. Also, the D.O.s who are asked this question should be less than a year out of residency.

I guarantee the first choice would be picked by 90%. 😀 Hence:

To change the DO degree to MD would concede that it is somehow inferior (which it is not). I do not have a DO degree yet, but I would not want to change it based on that premise alone.

What needs to change is public awareness of DOs - luckily that is already happening and I hope by the time I complete residency these topics will not be an issue.

 

[Juneau]

We can try a simple experiment. Let's ask D.O.s if they would rather be John Doe, M.D., or John Doe, D.O. Also, the D.O.s who are asked this question should be less than a year out of residency.

I guarantee the first choice would be picked by 90%. 😀 Hence:

"You will lose." - Ivan Drago, U.S.S.R. Heavyweight Champion, Rocky IV.

This is not random sampling, it is selected sampling, so you cannot use this to support your 90% claim. Don't forget, in order to say 90% of any group wants something, each member of the population must have and equal and independent chance of being selected. You have narrowed the population down to those within the first year out of residency. 90% of that sample group would equal a very small percentage of the entire population. Your initial statement should have been "90% of D.O.s, within their first year out of residency, want to end distinction between osteopathic and allopathic physicians."

But you still would not be able to back this claim up.

If you are going to use statistics, use them properly!

 

[Prodigy]

This is not random sampling, it is selected sampling, so you cannot use this to support your 90% claim. Don't forget, in order to say 90% of any group wants something, each member of the population must have and equal and independent chance of being selected. You have narrowed the population down to those within the first year out of residency. 90% of that sample group would equal a very small percentage of the entire population. Your initial statement should have been "90% of D.O.s, within their first year out of residency, want to end distinction between osteopathic and allopathic physicians."

But you still would not be able to back this claim up.

If you are going to use statistics, use them properly!

I'm not sure he meant to use DOs strictly on the SDN forum as the sample size for the "study." However, if he did, then you are correct. I don't know anything on the poster, so I can't make a claim either way -- simply clarifying the situation at hand.

 

[Prodigy]

Nope. 95% would rather keep their degree as is.

I'd tend to think that may be correct. There are a good deal of DOs wishing to be MDs; however, for every one DO like that, there are several DOs who fully embrace their medical heritage.

This study shouldn't exist, and neither should discussions of it exist. You don't see threads and posts about converting all DDS's into DMDs or vice-versa. I don't know why DOs have this inferiority complex (it may strictly be a pre-med/med thing, I don't know), but if this talk continues to permeate, then it will only give MDs due reason to look down upon DOs. Think about that before you all make posts/threads/"studies" about converting all DOs into MDs, regardless of how narrow the difference may currently be.

 

[toothless rufus]

I think its all alpha dog syndrome at the Hootenanny, lol!!

 

[Static Line]

This is not random sampling, it is selected sampling, so you cannot use this to support your 90% claim. Don't forget, in order to say 90% of any group wants something, each member of the population must have and equal and independent chance of being selected. You have narrowed the population down to those within the first year out of residency. 90% of that sample group would equal a very small percentage of the entire population. Your initial statement should have been "90% of D.O.s, within their first year out of residency, want to end distinction between osteopathic and allopathic physicians."

But you still would not be able to back this claim up.

If you are going to use statistics, use them properly!

So true. There are a couple of different populations in osteopathic schools that could be surveyed and outcomes for each group would be at odds with each other.

The first group is the die hard osteopaths, massage therapists, Chiros, and CAM people who still believe osteopathy is holistic. These are among the weirdest and creepiest people I have met in class and if you disagree with cranial then you shall receive a thousand flogs for being an infidel. These people are willing to go down with the sinking ship. They are also the ones critics of OMM secretly find in the hallways and ask for treatments and they walk hand in hand to the OMM lab together. Just a guess but I would say that these make up about 10% of the class. They are DO for life.

The next group are the allo rejects. They are frustrated that they always have to explain what a DO is, and explain that they are real doctors, and just wish that they could have the MD name instead. They are the first to jump ship when it is sinking. All in all jumping is not a bad idea because I am not fanatical enough to die for anyones cause save God, country, or family. You can pick them out after just a few minutes because they are among the bitterest people you will ever meet which is a good reason to not be part of this group. Bad juju for the BP. Another guess but I would say 30-40%. They are MD wannabes for life and will pull a California on you faster than you can blink.

The last group are the ones somewhere in the middle. It encompasses a larger diverse group of people that can't be classified into one category. Some were drawn to osteopathic school because they were under the impression (probably from reading too many posts on SDN) that this is more holistic than other forms of medicine. Doesn't take them long to figure out otherwise. Some had an osteopath as a family physician and saw no difference between the MD they used to go to and the DO they now see. To them it was just a means to an end. Some will be loyal to the AOA because they made it into med school somewhere- beit allo or osteo. I know some who are just as competitive (at least MCAT GPA wise) but it was just a competitive year and this is their fallback option. They would be good whether DO or MD. Many are complacent with whatever degree they get and just don't care. They remind me of the typical pot smoker who is chilled out and just wants something to munch on. You may not get a vote from these people because they don't care either way. My guess 40-50%

I can keep going on and on but I have better things to do. osta!

 

[medhacker]

The first group is the die hard osteopaths, massage therapists, Chiros, and CAM people who still believe osteopathy is holistic. These are among the weirdest and creepiest people I have met in class and if you disagree with cranial then you shall receive a thousand flogs for being an infidel. These people are willing to go down with the sinking ship. They are also the ones critics of OMM secretly find in the hallways and ask for treatments and they walk hand in hand to the OMM lab together. Just a guess but I would say that these make up about 10% of the class. They are DO for life.

And you better believe it is this first group who will inherit the leadership of the AOA. Osteopathic medicine is a private society - it will do what "it" wants to do. Thus, the other two groups better learn how to negotiate with the die hards, 'cause whether the other two groan, fuss or moan there are certain aspects of osteopathic medicine which, fortunately or unfortunately, are here to stay... 😍

 

[CommanderRiker]

To change the DO degree to MD would concede that it is somehow inferior (which it is not). I do not have a DO degree yet, but I would not want to change it based on that premise alone.

What needs to change is public awareness of DOs - luckily that is already happening and I hope by the time I complete residency these topics will not be an issue.

Commander Riker signing in.

There are 22,500 allopaths versus 3,000 osteopaths who begin residency each year. By the time we graduate, another 600 osteopaths will be added. Assuming the allopathic number stays the same, 3,600/22,500 gives about a 16% D.O. to M.D. ratio. Most D.O.s are and will be concentrated in New York, Philadelphia, on the East and West Coasts, and in the Southern states like Texas and Oklahoma. Large swathes covering thousands of square miles haven't even heard of D.O.s, let alone the people there will choose them. In about a third of the United States, D.O.s are rarer than finding a genuine phaser from Star Trek for five bucks.

If you have a D.O. in front of your name, you will be practicing in certain states only. Can you practice in all 50 states? Sure. But you better get a heavy-duty coffee maker because you'll be perfecting your 'What is a D.O.?' explanation for many long nights.

Computer, end transmission.

 

[CommanderRiker]

And you better believe it is this first group who will inherit the leadership of the AOA. Osteopathic medicine is a private society - it will do what "it" wants to do. Thus, the other two groups better learn how to negotiate with the die hards, 'cause whether the other two groan, fuss or moan there are certain aspects of osteopathic medicine which, fortunately or unfortunately, are here to stay... 😍

Good point, and unfortunately true. Many modern D.O.s want to feel privileged and will do anything to feel that way, even if it means endorsing ideas that will hurt the profession overall.

 

[Static Line]

And you better believe it is this first group who will inherit the leadership of the AOA. Osteopathic medicine is a private society - it will do what "it" wants to do. Thus, the other two groups better learn how to negotiate with the die hards, 'cause whether the other two groan, fuss or moan there are certain aspects of osteopathic medicine which, fortunately or unfortunately, are here to stay... 😍

You are, I believe, 100% correct.

Those who can--do. Those who can't --teach (they also get into administration and keep alive some antiquated, dead philosophies and SOP's. In the AOA it is called the status quo.)

I am not anti-AOA but they tend to eat their young. It would be a much more powerful lobby if they didn't alienate so many graduates and make life needlesly more difficult for others.

 

[CommanderRiker]

You are, I believe, 100% correct.

Those who can--do. Those who can't --teach (they also get into administration and keep alive some antiquated, dead philosophies and SOP's. In the AOA it is called the status quo.)

I am not anti-AOA but they tend to eat their young. It would be a much more powerful lobby if they didn't alienate so many graduates and make life needlesly more difficult for others.

👍👍 This man just earned my respect for 2 days. Congratulations, and welcome to the Starship Enterprise! 🙂

 

[homeboy]

Arguing that DOs are different or better because their daily thought process frequents the notion that “the body is a unit, et al.” is a farce.

Let’s call a spade a spade: is our profession based on true distinction rooted in core differences of logic and approaches to patient care, or a nostalgic fantasy that superficial attributes equate to genuine professional distinction?

You are the physician / medical student you are not because you went to DO school, but because you have your certain set of beliefs and attitudes towards health care, life, patients. etc... If you were an MD, you wouldn't be any less of a physician.

 

[DOSouthpaw]

And you better believe it is this first group who will inherit the leadership of the AOA. Osteopathic medicine is a private society - it will do what "it" wants to do. Thus, the other two groups better learn how to negotiate with the die hards, 'cause whether the other two groan, fuss or moan there are certain aspects of osteopathic medicine which, fortunately or unfortunately, are here to stay... 😍

You're kidding right? I have been to many AOA meetings and have served on AOA committees myself, and I can tell you that none of those people are in the first group at all. The AOA leadership are all about keeping power. OMT is a way to justify the seperate but equal status and therefore justify an AOA. None of those folks actually do OMT and if they do certainly not the voodoo type at all. It all about lip service and keeping the organization.

 

[JohnUC33]

We can try a simple experiment. Let's ask D.O.s if they would rather be John Doe, M.D., or John Doe, D.O. Also, the D.O.s who are asked this question should be less than a year out of residency.

I guarantee the first choice would be picked by 90%. 😀 Hence:

"You will lose." - Ivan Drago, U.S.S.R. Heavyweight Champion, Rocky IV.

Well, I for one chose osteopathic medicine, not as a backup plan. I actually would fight legislations replacing my D.O. initials with M.D. Yes, we share many similarities, but we still are different and we should celebrate those differences instead of conforming to allopathic medicine completely.

 

[medhacker]

You're kidding right? I have been to many AOA meetings and have served on AOA committees myself, and I can tell you that none of those people are in the first group at all. The AOA leadership are all about keeping power. OMT is a way to justify the seperate but equal status and therefore justify an AOA. None of those folks actually do OMT and if they do certainly not the voodoo type at all. It all about lip service and keeping the organization.

You are missing the forest for the trees...

Their current OMM status says nothing about how they were when they were in med school. (for those who are/were physicians)

Besides, you are missing the point even further by not realizing it is the first group who finds the most favor before the current powers that be - for obvious reasons.

 

[DOSouthpaw]

You are missing the forest for the trees...

Their current OMM status says nothing about how they were when they were in med school. (for those who are/were physicians)

Besides, you are missing the point even further by not realizing it is the first group who finds the most favor before the current powers that be - for obvious reasons.

I still totally disagree with you. The first group do NOT find favor at all with the current powers that be. They use the first group as a means to an end. You ought to hear the way the AAO members are talked about in AOA meetings and in private conversations with AOA leadership. The AAO (the people who fall into the "first group") are only kept around for distinctiveness, because without them, the AOA would not be able to keep up the separate but equal argument. This whole idea plays into many different "problems" we as a profession have at the moment...such as the entire match process. But I won't get into that because that is a very big firestorm. lol

 

[Hernandez]

If you have a D.O. in front of your name, you will be practicing in certain states only. Can you practice in all 50 states? Sure. But you better get a heavy-duty coffee maker because you'll be perfecting your 'What is a D.O.?' explanation for many long nights.

Computer, end transmission.

🙄 I've been asked all of once what a DO was, and it wasn't by a pt. You're making assumptions based on limited information. And you've made it very clear from your post history that you view Osteopathic schools as back up options for allopathic rejects. If you do not wish to be a DO, wait a year or take a few years to get your stats to where you make it into an allopathic school. But again, if you actually got into OSU-COM as an out of state applicant, there is no reason you should not be able to get into an allopathic school as OSU-COM is just as competitive as many allopathic schools.

👍👍 This man just earned my respect for 2 days. Congratulations, and welcome to the Starship Enterprise! 🙂

And somehow I really doubt you have much idea why many of us Osteopathic physicians have issues with the AOA. I have issues with them, but it has nothing to do with them not working to change my degree designation to MD.

 

[GreenShirt]

I hate to say it, but if DO programs became MD programs, many of the DO applicants who get in with less than perfect stats would no longer have a shot at a U.S. medical education. Keeping the institutions seperate is giving some of us a chance we would not have otherwise.

 

[medhacker]

I still totally disagree with you.

Ok, let me appeal to your reason.

Neither you or I, have been to the plethora of AOA reunions which would allow us to know without reasonable doubt what "all" leaders of the AOA think about this issue.

It only stands to reason that of the groups described above, it would be the first one, that the powers that be would "most likely" wish to hand down their "empire" to. Why? well it is that group which best resembles their vision/mission of all the groups. I hope that's more clear. Peace.

 

[misparas]

I hate to say it, but if DO programs became MD programs, many of the DO applicants who get in with less than perfect stats would no longer have a shot at a U.S. medical education. Keeping the institutions seperate is giving some of us a chance we would not have otherwise.

Give me a break. You say that as if there aren't MD programs who take below average stats. There are many DO programs with higher stats than various MD programs.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

I hate to say it, but if DO programs became MD programs, many of the DO applicants who get in with less than perfect stats would no longer have a shot at a U.S. medical education. Keeping the institutions seperate is giving some of us a chance we would not have otherwise.

Once again someone has stuck their foot in their giant mouth and attempted to say something without actually thinking. If the degrees merged how would people all of a sudden NOT be getting into medical school? Are the schools going buh bye? The number of schools and applicants is not going to change so how would "DO applicants" no longer be getting in to school. Your comment makes no sense.

Also maybe you should check out some of the low-tier medical schools and compare them to DO schools. Many of them are below DO schools in stats, Meharry, Arkansas, East carolina, West Virginia, Wright State, and I could go on but you should stop making ridiculous comments.

 

[GreenShirt]

Once again someone has stuck their foot in their giant mouth and attempted to say something without actually thinking. If the degrees merged how would people all of a sudden NOT be getting into medical school? Are the schools going buh bye? The number of schools and applicants is not going to change so how would "DO applicants" no longer be getting in to school. Your comment makes no sense.

Also maybe you should check out some of the low-tier medical schools and compare them to DO schools. Many of them are below DO schools in stats, Meharry, Arkansas, East carolina, West Virginia, Wright State, and I could go on but you should stop making ridiculous comments.

Because the 23 "new" MD schools would now have the applications of all the 31+ MCAT crowd that didn't get into the current 125 MD schools but considered DO not for them. They would push out the 25 MCAT crowd that currently gets into DO schools. Yes, there are DO schools that get applicants with great stats, but if you look at the averages they are 25-27 MCAT across the board. Those students would not out-compete students with better stats under an AMA system.

Those MD schools you list have a strong in-state preference which brings down averages, further compounded by the fact that they are not known for their education systems.

I'm not advocating lower eductaion standards for DO schools, but if the AMA took over those schools, many of the DO students currently entering programs would say bye-bye to that education. I, for one, am thankful for my chance at a medical education.

 

[ceftazidime]

I'm not advocating lower eductaion standards for DO schools, but if the AMA took over those schools, many of the DO students currently entering programs would say bye-bye to that education. I, for one, am thankful for my chance at a medical education.

The AOA will not just disappear and let the AMA take over all the osteopathic medical schools in the country. In fact, nothing would change except for the fact the degree "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" would be designated MD, DO or MD-O rather than just DO like it currently is. I think I follow your logic in that you think more high-quality applicants will now start applying to osteopathic schools, therefore pushing away the lower-quality applicants who would have barely gotten in anyway. This may indeed be the case, but then so be it... It is not a bad thing to have more qualified osteopathic students, and it could even eliminate the bias that "DOs are inferior". And still, the pre-med 4.0 GPA, 45 MCAT gunners will still prefer Harvard over XXX-COM.

 

[GreenShirt]

The AOA will not just disappear and let the AMA take over all the osteopathic medical schools in the country. In fact, nothing would change except for the fact the degree "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" would be designated MD, DO or MD-O rather than just DO like it currently is. I think I follow your logic in that you think more high-quality applicants will now start applying to osteopathic schools, therefore pushing away the lower-quality applicants who would have barely gotten in anyway. This may indeed be the case, but then so be it... It is not a bad thing to have more qualified osteopathic students, and it could even eliminate the bias that "DOs are inferior". And still, the pre-med 4.0 GPA, 45 MCAT gunners will still prefer Harvard over XXX-COM.

If osteopathic schools offered an "MD" degree there would be no "XXX-COM", no "osteopathic schools" and likely no "AOA". If having a separate organization govern a separate but parallel degree doesn't make sense to most people, then having one separately govern the same degree would make even less sense. Turning DO into MD would require a full merger.

I agree that maintaining separate institutions so that borderline candidates can go to medical school is a dumb arguement for maintaining a separation. However, I wonder if most of those making the arguement for a merger have considered the implications of it on their chances for medical school. Many of those who are not happy with the DO degree are likely the ones who wanted an MD but didn't make the cut for allopathic schools. Those same people would not be at any medical school if this country only offered MDs.

As to whether or not there should be parallel institutions, I don't know. Is it really a problem for anybody other than those who's egos would perfer a certain set of initials after their name? Healthcare is full of overlapping degrees...does this fact worsen our healthcare system?

 

[ceftazidime]

I didn't say change DO to MD, I said change it to MD,DO or MDO (the latter I think is better because it's still distinct). The college would still be a college of osteopathic medicine, and OMT would still be taught just as it's always been. This is not about a merger... it's about correctness. We work our butts off studying and practicing "medicine", our degree is called "doctor of osteopathic medicine", yet there is no "M" in our designation. This seems trivial, but to the general public it helps a great deal with their understanding of what an osteopathic physician is.

 

[Static Line]

I didn't say change DO to MD, I said change it to MD,DO or MDO (the latter I think is better because it's still distinct). The college would still be a college of osteopathic medicine, and OMT would still be taught just as it's always been. This is not about a merger... it's about correctness. We work our butts off studying and practicing "medicine", our degree is called "doctor of osteopathic medicine", yet there is no "M" in our designation. This seems trivial, but to the general public it helps a great deal with their understanding of what an osteopathic physician is.

But there is a "D" in our name and it means doctor. That is the part I worked really hard for. Really, I don't think a name change would mean anything to me or to the public at large. I think if we changed our initials to MDO then the ignoramousus out there would still zero in on the "O" and ask, "what's that?"

Just the very mention of the word "osteopathy" can send the conversation into a whirlwind and in the end, other than being "the doctor", they still don't know what an osteopathic physician is. When they do ask then the easiest way to define it is by just saying you are a medical doctor (you are). They don't really care, and you don't have to spend ions explaining it.

If your practice doesn't include OMM then why bother trying to explain it, you really are no different than the MD. If it does include OMM then show them what you do and you have less explaining to do afterward, and then they remember "the doctor that cracked my back."

 

[spicedmanna]

But there is a "D" in our name and it means doctor. That is the part I worked really hard for. Really, I don't think a name change would mean anything to me or to the public at large. I think if we changed our initials to MDO then the ignoramousus out there would still zero in on the "O" and ask, "what's that?"

Just the very mention of the word "osteopathy" can send the conversation into a whirlwind and in the end, other than being "the doctor", they still don't know what an osteopathic physician is. When they do ask then the easiest way to define it is by just saying you are a medical doctor (you are). They don't really care, and you don't have to spend ions explaining it.

If your practice doesn't include OMM then why bother trying to explain it, you really are no different than the MD. If it does include OMM then show them what you do and you have less explaining to do afterward, and then they remember "the doctor that cracked my back."

Well said. 👍

 

[ceftazidime]

But there is a "D" in our name and it means doctor. That is the part I worked really hard for. Really, I don't think a name change would mean anything to me or to the public at large. I think if we changed our initials to MDO then the ignoramousus out there would still zero in on the "O" and ask, "what's that?"

Any doctorate will have a "D" in their title, such as PhDs, pharmDs, ODs, JDs, PsyDs, DPTs, DOMs, DPMs, DDSs... etc. I don't know about you, but I don't consider myself to be in the same profession as an astronomist or lawyer. I will be a physician, which = medical doctor, hence the "M" is paramount. I agree with you on how it may not really affect the public's view all that much, but I feel that our letters do not do us justice for the specific work we do. Don't get me wrong, I love the "O" part of "DO", and I wouldn't trade it for the world. But MDO... what better way to communicate the fact that we are medical doctors + osteopaths than simply having it displayed on our coat?

 

[GreenShirt]

MDO vs. DO is something that would only mean anything to the less than 5% of the DO population. Maybe it would clear up the DO/OD dyslexic confusion at best. But the public is not going to appreciate the "M" in there anymore than they do the whole MD/DO thing.

 

[CommanderRiker]

I didn't say change DO to MD, I said change it to MD,DO or MDO (the latter I think is better because it's still distinct). The college would still be a college of osteopathic medicine, and OMT would still be taught just as it's always been. This is not about a merger... it's about correctness. We work our butts off studying and practicing "medicine", our degree is called "doctor of osteopathic medicine", yet there is no "M" in our designation. This seems trivial, but to the general public it helps a great deal with their understanding of what an osteopathic physician is.

👍👍 Totally agree.

 

[ceftazidime]

MDO vs. DO is something that would only mean anything to the less than 5% of the DO population. Maybe it would clear up the DO/OD dyslexic confusion at best. But the public is not going to appreciate the "M" in there anymore than they do the whole MD/DO thing.

You should try talking to your classmates (future DOs) about this... you'd be surprised how many agree with the change to MDO. The ones that don't agree usually come from a family with a long line of DO history... which just goes to show that it's tradition rather than logic that is putting the brakes on this change.

 

[MaximusD]

Give me a break. You say that as if there aren't MD programs who take below average stats. There are many DO programs with higher stats than various MD programs.

Let's put it this way... I applied to 17 schools... only 5 of those were osteopathic. I got 0 allo interviews but got 3 osteo interviews and 3 osteo acceptances... Hard to argue with.

 

[Mixmaster]

90% want to keep the D.O. designation? Are you serious? In the 60's most over 50% of D.O.'s paid to get rid of the D.O. What about in 2007? I bet well over 90% would be willing to pay to get rid of the D.O. and go M.D.

 

[CommanderRiker]

90% want to keep the D.O. designation? Are you serious? In the 60's most over 50% of D.O.'s paid to get rid of the D.O. What about in 2007? I bet well over 90% would be willing to pay to get rid of the D.O. and go M.D.

Yep.

 

[NjD00]

In the current age, the only real difference between an M.D. and D.O. degree is that osteopathic physicians learn OMM.

I for one would not want to lose the "heritage" of the recognition of being a D.O. versus the M.D. history, but one must acknowledge that the confusion between degrees is tiresome. I would also fight legislation that would entirely convert the D.O. degree to M.D., but for the sake of convenience and uniformity throughout the medical field, I would support something along the lines of changing "D.O." to something like "M.D.o"

Some people would argue "why should D.O.s concede to change towards MD instead of everyone changing?" I simply think this would work best because MD is more recognized worldwide and because the vast majority of physicians are MDs.

All D.O.s and M.D.s are indeed "medical doctors" so changing DO to MD would create uniformity and erase some confusion over lettering. Adding a subscript "o" would help retain the heritage and identity as having an osteopathic education and would signify that that physician had been trained in the added tool of OMM.

I fully expect someone to pissed about this idea, but please remember that I'm just another person brainstorming about this ever-present topic. Any thoughts on this idea?

 

[julia645]

What is with you guys and this 90% figure? You can't just make numbers up!

How do you explain the results of this poll? (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=336628) Conversion to MD doesn't even get the majority of votes. Sure, SDN is not exactly a random sample of the population, but it's hardly a stronghold of DO zealots.