Making 6K/mo with 2K/mo loans...And primary care aint looking so good

[DarksideAllstar]

My school was pushing a scholarship program (tuition reimbursement) for people interested in pursuing a primary care specialty. I think the only requirement was that you had to practice in an underserved community for x amount of years. I know that this was a national program (not just through my school), but I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, if you are really into primary care, you should look into it as there are many "underserved" areas adjacent to, or even in larger cities.

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[Law2Doc]

My school was pushing a scholarship program (tuition reimbursement) for people interested in pursuing a primary care specialty. I think the only requirement was that you had to practice in an underserved community for x amount of years. I know that this was a national program (not just through my school), but I can't remember the name of it. Anyway, if you are really into primary care, you should look into it as there are many "underserved" areas adjacent to, or even in larger cities.

There are definitely also a number of state schools that offer this, within their states (not nationally). It's a pretty good deal if you were going to do primary care anyway.

 

[deleted87716]

There is absolutely high demand. But the laws of supply and demand do not apply where the market is not free.

Correct. However, even a price-controlled market must correct itself over time, particularly in the case of primary care, where demand (thanks to the aging baby boomer population) is increasing, and supply (thanks to low reimbursement) is declining. To that end, expect to see some significant realignment in the next year with regard to reimbursement for Medicare E&M services. Medicare will not spend any more money, but it will increase reimbursement to primary care physicians at the expense of specialists. Since private insurance companies base their fee schedules on Medicare, this will have an across-the-board effect on reimbursement. This is long overdue, IMO.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

FYI i was pulling my 6K/mo figure from the salary.com website; i think with an avg FP salary i believe. this was in OH though.

and gas is looking better and better. i think i just need to hope to marry well ("well" being just "ok", really) and then i can go IM with no worries.

I've seen figures like that on salary.com, too. One thing to note is that the $6k is usually take home pay after taxes, retirement contributions and benefit premiums. Of course, salary.com can't accurately predict that, but that's why it's $6k and not $9k or so as a previous poster noted.

 

[signomi]

Good Lord. I consolidated my $160,000 or so student loan debt and am paying something like $400 per month for the next three which is going to jump to about $700 after that. I have some private loans which are deferred but which will tack on another $600 (for ten years) once I start paying them back. So let's say that in three years Im going to be paying $1300 a month for debt service for the rest of my working life.

What's funny is that I rounded down. I pay $4200 per month. I did consolidate all my federal loans. However, because of loan caps some of us have to take out private loans with high interest (10%+) that cannot be consolidated. These loans have to be paid back in (some) 5 years or (some) 10 years. Plus I needed a relocation loan to move to my residency and set up housekeeping. And no, I didn't live high on the hog. Some of us went to college and med school without a single $1 worth of help from family/friends/scholarships/etc.

While it would be admirable to continue to provide primary care in an underserved area with A LOT of medicare/medicaid patients, not everyone can afford it. I think that residents coming out tend to think that they will make those higher end salaries in primary care, when not everyone can be so lucky. The average is just that - an average. My main goal in posting was to show that $125,000 doesn't go nearly as far as some might think it does. I would love to put down roots and have a house and all its accoutrements, which is in essence part of the american dream, but I cannot afford that.

I'm just one more person that left primary care. You know I left practice 4 months ago and even just yesterday I had ERs calling me to talk about "my patients." Of course I declined, because I am not a PCP and do not have insurance for that anymore and legally cannot be involved. My point: a lot of my old patients haven't been able to find new docs.

 

[Jon Davis]

I've been learning how the stock market works during my year off. Forget about working off the loans, it'll take me a longer amount of time. I don't want to be my bank's best friend.

 

[benyjets23]

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but there is nothing more depressing than hearing people freaked out about whether making $125,000 is enough to live on. My God.

What will we remember with the fondest memories when we become the patient and are edging towards the brink. That $60,000 sports car you had when you were 40, or the time you spent a week hunched over a toilet in with a bad case of Delhi belly. The 40 foot motor home you bought that was more expensive than you neighbours house or the time you packed it all in and spent a year home schooling the kids in hotel rooms over looking the Taj, the river jordan or some remote bush cabin in northern BC?

I totaly agree that primary doctors need to be paid more. I agree that it is moral indignation that causes many of us to want higher pay. I agree you doctors are worth the money. I just don't think the motive should be hungering after the "American Dream", which is a fading illusion.

Ben

 

[Law2Doc]

The 40 foot motor home you bought that was more expensive than you neighbours house or the time you packed it all in and spent a year home schooling the kids in hotel rooms over looking the Taj, the river jordan or some remote bush cabin in northern BC?

Ya lost me. Am I buying a big motor home in the US and somehow shipping it to India, the mideast, etc. If so, the cost of that is what I'm going to remember most.

 

[saradoor]

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but there is nothing more depressing than hearing people freaked out about whether making $125,000 is enough to live on. My God.
...

Everyone's situation is different. 125K/yr may be enough for someone who does not have a big student loan to live in a city with a moderate housing price in today's world. But many people are not that lucky and will end up with a huge student loan from both undergraduate and medical school. And remember many folks on this thread will not make this much for a long time and everything will cost more in 7+ years. So I don't think it is fair for anyone to criticize folks who are worried about their financial future without knowing their individual situation.

 

[8744]

What's funny is that I rounded down. I pay $4200 per month. I did consolidate all my federal loans. However, because of loan caps some of us have to take out private loans with high interest (10%+) that cannot be consolidated. These loans have to be paid back in (some) 5 years or (some) 10 years. Plus I needed a relocation loan to move to my residency and set up housekeeping. And no, I didn't live high on the hog. Some of us went to college and med school without a single $1 worth of help from family/friends/scholarships/etc.

While it would be admirable to continue to provide primary care in an underserved area with A LOT of medicare/medicaid patients, not everyone can afford it. I think that residents coming out tend to think that they will make those higher end salaries in primary care, when not everyone can be so lucky. The average is just that - an average. My main goal in posting was to show that $125,000 doesn't go nearly as far as some might think it does. I would love to put down roots and have a house and all its accoutrements, which is in essence part of the american dream, but I cannot afford that.

I'm just one more person that left primary care. You know I left practice 4 months ago and even just yesterday I had ERs calling me to talk about "my patients." Of course I declined, because I am not a PCP and do not have insurance for that anymore and legally cannot be involved. My point: a lot of my old patients haven't been able to find new docs.

Let me get this straight. You're paying 4200 bucks a month for your medcial school loans which by my calculations comes out to...let's see...four times twelve plus 24...a whopping $54,000 per year!

$54,000 per year? Come on now. This makes no sense. I have a home mortage for about as much as I owe on student loans and I only pay 1500 a month for it. Was your medical school super-expensive?

 

[DarlynVMD]

If you're paying $4200/month on student loans... I feel sorry for you! Is this your required payment amount per month? I highly doubt that. And about your private med student loans.... a number of places consolidate private student loans... loantolearn is a very popular one, and definitely not the only one... all you have to do is research...... it's all out there.

Now..... about salaries..... These salaries are coming from physicians that are working less than 25 hrs a week.... come on...... if you want to make money you're gonna have to work your a$$ off PERIOD...and that applies to any career at that. My friend is an OB/GYN in the State of Florida, he has a practice in Miami and makes over $450,000 per year after expenses, which include overhead, malpractice, etc., but before uncle sam's cut. When most OBs are making around +/- $260,000..... he works about 50 + hrs a week, but he's making some sacrificies right now. Remember not to deduct your malpractice from your take home income, this is normally included with your overhead fees and everything else.

 

[saradoor]

Let me get this straight. You're paying 4200 bucks a month for your medcial school loans which by my calculations comes out to...let's see...four times twelve plus 24...a whopping $54,000 per year!

$54,000 per year? Come on now. This makes no sense. I have a home mortage for about as much as I owe on student loans and I only pay 1500 a month for it. Was your medical school super-expensive?

I think it is entirely possible especially when both undergraduate and medical school loans are combined with the high interest rates on any non-secured loan. We cannot compare student loans with mortgage loans. Mortgage loans are secured since the lenders can foreclose the properties if payments are not made. They cannot do that to a person and hence the higher interest rates.

Just as an example, consider this:

If you have a loan total of $365K (say you have to borrow your way thru both a private undergrad and med) and you consolidated all your loans to a 10yrs, 6.8% APR loan, you will have to pay about $4200/mo. If not all loans can be consolidated and some with higher interest rates, the loan amount will be smaller than $365K or the payment will be higher.

I may be wrong but I think student loans can only be consolidated once so it is entirely possible that one will be stuck with more than one loan. See: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060620164508AAr6EZE

 

[100041]

There are definitely also a number of state schools that offer this, within their states (not nationally). It's a pretty good deal if you were going to do primary care anyway.

There is a national group - the National Health Service Corps Scholarship, which is similar to the armed forces' scholarships but takes place in underserved areas.

 

[signomi]

$54,000 per year? Come on now. This makes no sense. I have a home mortage for about as much as I owe on student loans and I only pay 1500 a month for it. Was your medical school super-expensive?

As I said, that is the total for undergrad loans, med loans and car payments and it is the bare minimum payment for all but one. That one I kick in an extra $200 because the 10% interest is annoying. And yes, when I was attending, it was the most expensive med school in the country. So why the heck wasn't it in the top 50?

I don't mean to sound like a prick, but there is nothing more depressing than hearing people freaked out about whether making $125,000 is enough to live on. My God. What will we remember with the fondest memories when we become the patient and are edging towards the brink. That $60,000 sports car you had when you were 40, or the time you spent a week hunched over a toilet in with a bad case of Delhi belly. The 40 foot motor home you bought that was more expensive than you neighbours house or the time you packed it all in and spent a year home schooling the kids in hotel rooms over looking the Taj, the river jordan or some remote bush cabin in northern BC?

I think you missed the point entirely. I don't know any local primary care docs with sports cars or motor homes or who could afford to leave their jobs and move to a foreign country. While $125,000 is a lot of money to Joe Drivethru, when you are 7 years behind your peers in terms of having an income that is not slave wages, savings, asset acquisition (read: a house), etc and are coming out $200,000+ in debt they will never have, then $125,000 is not much money. I am speaking purely of the poorly compensated primary care docs, not the high paid specialists/subspecialists.
Oh, and I was working in an underserved area with a desperately underserved population.

 

[Margaritaville]

I was working in an underserved area with a desperately underserved population.

Well, that doesn't sound like such a wise move for someone in your situation, does it?

Most people who want to work with the poor don't expect to get rich doing it.

 

[DarksideAllstar]

There is a national group - the National Health Service Corps Scholarship, which is similar to the armed forces' scholarships but takes place in underserved areas.

Thanks. I couldn't remember the name of it when I posted earlier (ie I am not primary care-bound).

 

[crys20]

ben, i'm curious how much debt your currently under, or anticipating being under. the 125K/yr figure IS worrisome when you borrowed your way thru undergrad, thru med, etc without a dime of help anywhere along the way as someone else mentioned.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

ben, i'm curious how much debt your currently under, or anticipating being under. the 125K/yr figure IS worrisome when you borrowed your way thru undergrad, thru med, etc without a dime of help anywhere along the way as someone else mentioned.

Ben appears to be a Canadian, so he might not get the med school debt thing since their schools are cheap.

 

[beetlerum]

As I said, that is the total for undergrad loans, med loans and car payments and it is the bare minimum payment for all but one. That one I kick in an extra $200 because the 10% interest is annoying. And yes, when I was attending, it was the most expensive med school in the country. So why the heck wasn't it in the top 50?

I think you missed the point entirely. I don't know any local primary care docs with sports cars or motor homes or who could afford to leave their jobs and move to a foreign country. While $125,000 is a lot of money to Joe Drivethru, when you are 7 years behind your peers in terms of having an income that is not slave wages, savings, asset acquisition (read: a house), etc and are coming out $200,000+ in debt they will never have, then $125,000 is not much money. I am speaking purely of the poorly compensated primary care docs, not the high paid specialists/subspecialists.
Oh, and I was working in an underserved area with a desperately underserved population.

You are right that 125k is not a huge amount for someone with loans who may be close to thirty without having worked. However, you give the impression that everyone not in med school has been earning a big salary since the day they graduated college. This is really not true at all. And 30 may seem like a really old age to start making good money, but it's really not. There are lots and lots of other people who don't make much in their twenties, maybe they spend a big chunk of it in some form of training, school or other, but then they don't crack six figures once they get it together at 30.

I apparently hang out with the wrong people though. Because it seems that every med student on SDN has all friends who have made huge salaries from 22 while partying 8 nights a week.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

Ask any competent financial advisor: the money you save up and invest, however big or small (compared to hugely NEGATIVE savings for medical students, "debt"), in your 20s is the most empowering financial act a person can do. Savings/investments in later years don't have nearly as much potential for growth or so little risk (since you can ride out tough markets for a longer time) as money you save and invest in later decades of your life.

So, yes, if I had taken a teaching job with a starting salary of 30K right out of college-- I would be far ahead financially at age 35 than I would be as a doctor at age 40.

I think some of you are really missing the point as to why some of us are concerned. After the years of education, training and debt we (including our current/future families) deserve to be financially solvent and secure. That doesn't seem like such a sure thing any more in the medical field.

 

[beetlerum]

Ask any competent financial advisor: the money you save up and invest, however big or small (compared to hugely NEGATIVE savings for medical students, "debt"), in your 20s is the most empowering financial act a person can do. Savings/investments in later years don't have nearly as much potential for growth or so little risk (since you can ride out tough markets for a longer time) as money you save and invest in later decades of your life.

So, yes, if I had taken a teaching job with a starting salary of 30K right out of

college-- I would be far ahead financially at age 35 than I would be as a doctor at age 40.

Excuse me? You are much better off financially as a doctor! I don't know what the move ahead point is, 35 or not, but it is frankly ridiculous to suggest that you are better off as a teacher. And it defies common sense. Look around at doctors and teachers you know. Who seems to live the more affluent lifestyle? And don't tell me it's because doctors used to make so much more money.

And yes, you are better off saving early. But it still doesn't make up for this difference. Anyway, most people don't save a lot in their 20s. It's difficult. Other people have student loans, you know, and they may not make a lot of money. They switch careers. All kinds of things happen.

I think some of you are really missing the point as to why some of us are concerned. After the years of education, training and debt we (including our current/future families) deserve to be financially solvent and secure. That doesn't seem like such a sure thing any more in the medical field.

There is possibly no other profession that offers a better chance of being financially secure! Of course there are no guarantees, but seriously. If you are a pcp in a place like Manhattan, than it can be really tough. But that said. being a doctor offers overall an immense amount of financial security.

And I don't know where this "deserve" comes in. That's now how free market economies work. Salaries are not determined by years of schools or what you perceive to be your importance to society. And plenty of people are not treated as they "deserve." I know people who went through terrible financial problems after years and years of experience. I know a man who lost his business after 30 years of building it up. He became a bus driver. At least in medicine you are rewarded with high status and a good salary for doing good work. Most people working in the public good don't have that.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I apparently hang out with the wrong people though. Because it seems that every med student on SDN has all friends who have made huge salaries from 22 while partying 8 nights a week.

Me, too. I am sort of curious about where that SDN legend comes from.

 

[1Path]

Oh, and I was working in an underserved area with a desperately underserved population.

I thought the gov't sponsered loan forgiveness programs for folks who worked in underserved areas? In fact, I'm almost sure they do!

 

[100041]

I thought the gov't sponsered loan forgiveness programs for folks who worked in underserved areas? In fact, I'm almost sure they do!

Only if you sign up for the program and make the commitment.

 

[billclinton]

Ask any competent financial advisor: the money you save up and invest, however big or small (compared to hugely NEGATIVE savings for medical students, "debt"), in your 20s is the most empowering financial act a person can do. Savings/investments in later years don't have nearly as much potential for growth or so little risk (since you can ride out tough markets for a longer time) as money you save and invest in later decades of your life.

So, yes, if I had taken a teaching job with a starting salary of 30K right out of college-- I would be far ahead financially at age 35 than I would be as a doctor at age 40.

I think some of you are really missing the point as to why some of us are concerned. After the years of education, training and debt we (including our current/future families) deserve to be financially solvent and secure. That doesn't seem like such a sure thing any more in the medical field.

$30,000*13 yrs = $390,000

avg salary for primary care is around 160k, but let's say it is only 140k
22 yrs old + 4 yrs med school + 3 yrs residency = 29 years old

$140,000 * 6 yrs = $840,000

Now, let's take into account tuition at the cost of $150,000.

$840,000 - $150,000 = $690,000

Although this is a generalization, you can see that going to med school you would still be significantly better, financially speaking, than if you were a teacher right out of college. Certainly, a teacher's pay will increase, but so will the physicians.

 

[Law2Doc]

$30,000*13 yrs = $390,000

avg salary for primary care is around 160k, but let's say it is only 140k
22 yrs old + 4 yrs med school + 3 yrs residency = 29 years old

$140,000 * 6 yrs = $840,000

Now, let's take into account tuition at the cost of $150,000.

$840,000 - $150,000 = $690,000

Although this is a generalization, you can see that going to med school you would still be significantly better, financially speaking, than if you were a teacher right out of college. Certainly, a teacher's pay will increase, but so will the physicians.

Although I agree with you that a doctor makes more than a teacher, even considering school, your analysis is very badly flawed. You need to take into account the time value of money. Getting 150k seven years from now is worth significantly less than getting 150k today. (Additionally, your tuition will generally be paid back plus interest, making it well over the principle amount). If you don't agree, give me 150k today and I will even give you 155k back seven years from now. We'll see who makes out better.

 

[MJB]

You aren't going to start arguing that Teachers are more financially stable than docs now are you? That's almost in line with the trash man argument.

I'm kinda with the "I can't believe people are bitching about ONLY making 6 figures" crowd. Not everyone chooses to live in the most expensive areas of our country...

 

[crys20]

I don't care where you're living. Maybe I was delusional but I always thought if you had a family with a single-physician income you would be doing good, fine, not worrying, comfortable, etc. Then I come to the realization of the huge, huge cost of education it takes to get thru MD school (considering you didn't come from a great family who could help substantially). So you take a primary care doc's avg salary, which I quoted as 6K. Probably decently accurate. Then you take off the 2K a month you are paying off in loans for 10...15...or more years. 4K for a family for a month, ANYWHERE, is...well it isn't great to me UPON considering the hell that we go through...4 years of undergrad when if you were like me you busted your ass trying to repair a GPA, get As, do ok on the MCAT, do all the volunteer-type stuf you really didn't want to do THAT much just to get in to school...Then 4 years of med which I can't really speak to yet...Then you're 30, you've spent all of your 20s in school and you're FINALLY making that cool 6K a month, minus the loans that have been racking up interest all these years.

 

[Law2Doc]

You aren't going to start arguing that Teachers are more financially stable than docs now are you? That's almost in line with the trash man argument.

Um no, read my first line - teachers salaries s&ck, even looked at on an hourly basis. But I am suggesting that when one compares salaries that start 7 years from now to salaries that start today, one has to at least use net present value, (and acknowledge that interest accrues on debt). Time truly is money. This is a very basic financial concept.

 

[MJB]

I agree, but you seem to assume that people are automatically able to save a substantial amount as soon as they enter the workforce...That's really not a reality on a salary as low as some teachers make.

In general, we agree....

Again, I'm one that is fine with "only" making 6 figures...and one of the schools I really want to go to will cost me a minimum of 50K a year including tuition, cost of living, etc...

 

[Miami_med]

Um no, read my first line - teachers salaries s&ck, even looked at on an hourly basis. But I am suggesting that when one compares salaries that start 7 years from now to salaries that start today, one has to at least use net present value, (and acknowledge that interest accrues on debt). Time truly is money. This is a very basic financial concept.

Atleast include in the calculation that the doc is paying at the upper end of the tax spectrum. The teacher pays little tax. That being said, teaching isn't that great a deal. You could make more and have a better lifestyle (Trust me on this one). This is a ridiculous comparison anyway. There are significant differences in the requirements of these two professions. That being said, for those that have never worked other jobs, there is plenty of busting your butt in a normal job regardless of pay.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Although I agree with you that a doctor makes more than a teacher, even considering school, your analysis is very badly flawed. You need to take into account the time value of money. Getting 150k seven years from now is worth significantly less than getting 150k today. (Additionally, your tuition will generally be paid back plus interest, making it well over the principle amount). If you don't agree, give me 150k today and I will even give you 155k back seven years from now. We'll see who makes out better.

The doctor still comes out ahead, even including all of that.

I will make the following unfavorable assumptions WRT the doctor's loan repayment status:

1. 50,000 per year in Medical School Debt.
2. The total amount paid for student loans does not include periodic repayment (I made this assumption because I forgot the formula for total amount repaid with a periodic repayment.)

Other assumptions:

1. 3% per year Inflation rate
2. 7% per year student loan interest, compounded annually
3. 30 year Loan Repayment Period
4. 30,000 per year residency salary, for a 3 year residency

Teacher:

30,000 salary over 13 years:

Total value at end of 13 years = 30,000(1.03^13 - 1)/(1.03 -1) = 468,533

Doctor:

Medical School Loans Repaid = 50,000(1.07)^30 = 360,612

Residency Salary Value at End of 13 years = 30,000(1.03)^8(1.03^3 - 1)/(1.03 - 1)
= 117,463

Doctor's Salary value at End of 13 years = 140,000(1.03^6 - 1)/(1.03 - 1) = 905,577

Total Value of Doctor's Salary at End of 13 years = 117,463 + 905,577 - 360,612
= 642,429

This is still 173,896 (or > 5 years of teacher's salary more,) under VERY, VERY conservative conditions. I'm not sure why 13 years was picked as the original time frame, but obviously, the longer the period of time, the better the job of a doctor looks financially. Some of the assumptions that I made were ridiculously conservative, yet things STILL come out ahead for the doctor.

Once again, I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about. The recipe for financial success in ANY career is simple: Keep your income as high as possible, and keep your costs as low as possible. As someone who currently earns less and lives very well, $140,000 can go a LONG way in the right place.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

I am not saying teaching is a better profession financially over an entire lifetime. But a normal doctor at age 40 is about financially even with a good teacher at age 35, assuming current conditions for medical students.

13 years of nice, steady all but guaranteed raises puts a teacher with a salary almost double that of what s\he started out with. Compound that with regular, matching contributions to his/her retirement savings, buying a house and other investments (that will have higher rates of returns than a doctor doing the same things ten years later) and the financial status of a teacher does not seem as bleak as we've all been taught to assume and is certainly as good, if not better, than that of a doctor who was in the same graduating college class as the teacher.

And, of course, the extended summer vacations and weekends/holidays teachers enjoy gives them the ability to maximize income should they seek part-time/seasonal work.

My point isn't that doctors eventually may have respectable savings and investments when they're 50 and 60-- it's that, during the prime of their lives (20-40)-- they're borrower-slaves who've been sold off to government-subsidized and insured exploitive corporations.

 

[billclinton]

Although I agree with you that a doctor makes more than a teacher, even considering school, your analysis is very badly flawed. You need to take into account the time value of money. Getting 150k seven years from now is worth significantly less than getting 150k today. (Additionally, your tuition will generally be paid back plus interest, making it well over the principle amount). If you don't agree, give me 150k today and I will even give you 155k back seven years from now. We'll see who makes out better.

yes, i knew i was leaving those out... but i believe even if those were considered, you would still make out better as a doc. Now if you are comparing law, engineering, or some other higher paying profession the line narrows. I just couldn't believe that one guy who said he would be better off as a teacher making $30k. There is no way that is true.

 

[Law2Doc]

I just couldn't believe that one guy who said he would be better off as a teacher making $30k. There is no way that is true.

I think that is one thing most of us can agree on.

But if you love what you do, and can live on it, I think that's the brass ring. Too many threads of people counting the money they hope to have on here.

 

[fun8stuff]

I think that is one thing most of us can agree on.

But if you love what you do, and can live on it, I think that's the brass ring. Too many threads of people counting the money they hope to have on here.

Teaching isn't all that bad if you can stand the kids. After a Masters and 20 years it is possible to make $70k+ and you still get summers and weekends off.

 

[BlazerMed]

Teaching isn't all that bad if you can stand the kids. After a Masters and 20 years it is possible to make $70k+ and you still get summers and weekends off.

Possible = depends on location.

My mom has a masters and 30 years of teaching (all in the same system), makes less than 50k. Of course, the school system for the county blows, as it does for the vast majority of the state's public schools.

 

[fun8stuff]

Possible = depends on location.

My mom has a masters and 30 years of teaching (all in the same system), makes less than 50k. Of course, the school system for the county blows, as it does for the vast majority of the state's public schools.

yeah, well even if it were $70k (which I have heard of- but yeah, it would be pretty rare to make that much), it still isn't better money. What I was getting to was that it was an all-around good job if you like doing it. To me, it would beat sitting in a office all day doing the same old thing... but i couldnt deal with the kids and i think i would get sick of teaching the same types of classes over and over.

 

[BlazerMed]

yeah, well even if it were $70k (which I have heard of- but yeah, it would be pretty rare to make that much), it still isn't better money. What I was getting to was that it was an all-around good job if you like doing it. To me, it would beat sitting in a office all day doing the same old thing... but i couldnt deal with the kids and i think i would get sick of teaching the same types of classes over and over.

I'd agree with that. I had an office job for the past 6 months, it blows, I couldn't stand it. I always told myself that if med school never worked out that I'd be a high school bio teacher, but with the way it seems kids are today, I'd probably get fired for strangling one of the snot-nose little pricks.

 

[tncekm]

I'm such a planner. Through salary.com I figure baseline primary care, not business mogul type docs will pull in about 6K after taxes. Now, me, I'm at the high, high end of total student loan debt due to paying undergrad alone, etc. So I figure probably about $2K in loans/mo unless I want to be paying them off for upwards 30 years. 4K is sort of not what I envisioned by doctor life to be.

I guess my question is how many people do you think in similar situations pursue a field of medicine JUST for the $$$ and of course bigger picture ease of life after the long haul of medicine. Of course if I end up marrying someone with a decent income, I could easily pay that $2k and still live a very comfortable life but it's funny...If I'm comfortably married in late med school, I'll choose the primary care field I probably most prefer...If not, gas to pay the bills. Is there an error with my logic here?

this is where writeoffs and smart investing comes in. you don't honestlythink that people who make 100k+ are losing 45%in taxes do you?

roth ira, 401k, money market accts, owning property, etc. You can keep lots of your money.

And, if your interest rate on your loans is low, you're better off paying the minimum and investing the difference because you can easily return a rate of 10%/yr with wise investing. So, if you pay off your loan of say 5-6% at minimumand invest the difference you make more money than you would save by paying more than the minimum.

you've got to be wise with your money otherwise there isn't much difference between a 150k/yr income and an 80k/yr income.

 

[tncekm]

Um no, read my first line - teachers salaries s&ck, even looked at on an hourly basis. But I am suggesting that when one compares salaries that start 7 years from now to salaries that start today, one has to at least use net present value, (and acknowledge that interest accrues on debt). Time truly is money. This is a very basic financial concept.

Where I live HS teachers are making 50-70k/yr working 188 days/yr. That works out to be 33/hr and 46/hr respectively.

A CC teacher I know, also heads the math dept., teaches 3 sections at a time and makes 80k/yr. That's hardly what I'd call "suck"

But even if you assume for $35/k yr and 188 days/yr that's $23/hr. Not too bad IMO.

But, you nailed it 1110000% on the head with the statement "time is money". People have no idea of the power of exponential growth. Just to put it in perspective, at 10% return you double your money in roughly 8 yrs. And, to put the power of exponential growth into perspective, doubling 2 ten times (or 2^10) is 1024, a 500 fold increase.

Basically, if you can double your money 5 times (10% over 40 yrs) you can make a 15 fold increase in yoru initial investment.

edit: if my numbers are off at all ,its 5:20 am and i haven't slept yet forgive me

 

[BlazerMed]

But even if you assume for $35/k yr and 188 days/yr that's $23/hr. Not too bad IMO.

Your calculation is flawed. It assumes that the teacher only does work while school is in session. You must also account for teacher workdays w/o kids, time spent preparing the classroom during the summer, grading tests/papers after hours, preparing the next day's/week's lessons, parent/teacher conferences, faculty meetings, etc.

This is all stuff that I have seen my mom do every single year. She's even been guilted into repainting her classroom this summer (although she doesn't have to buy the paint), and this is her last year of teaching. The vast majority, if not all, of the stuff on her classroom walls was paid for out of her pocket, even some of the computers/moniters/printers she took to school when we'd upgrade.

And she's just a second grade teacher, imagine how much more work it would be for say... a high school AP teacher, that, atleast in the school system I grew up in, probably doesn't make much more than her. You're going to have a hard time convincing me (or anyone else that has a teacher parent or has been a teacher) that they are well compensated.

 

[billclinton]

Your calculation is flawed. It assumes that the teacher only does work while school is in session. You must also account for teacher workdays w/o kids, time spent preparing the classroom during the summer, grading tests/papers after hours, preparing the next day's/week's lessons, parent/teacher conferences, faculty meetings, etc.

This is all stuff that I have seen my mom do every single year. She's even been guilted into repainting her classroom this summer (although she doesn't have to buy the paint), and this is her last year of teaching. The vast majority, if not all, of the stuff on her classroom walls was paid for out of her pocket, even some of the computers/moniters/printers she took to school when we'd upgrade.

And she's just a second grade teacher, imagine how much more work it would be for say... a high school AP teacher, that, atleast in the school system I grew up in, probably doesn't make much more than her. You're going to have a hard time convincing me (or anyone else that has a teacher parent or has been a teacher) that they are well compensated.

it sounds like you may also have a hard time convincing a family doctor (or anyone else that has a primary care doc as a parent or has been a primary care doc) that they are well compensated

 

[t33sg1rl]

I thought the gov't sponsered loan forgiveness programs for folks who worked in underserved areas? In fact, I'm almost sure they do!

Yes they do but they will only pay 10K per year on your student loans. I anticipate that my payments will be around 1500/month, or 18K/year, so it's not that great of a deal. That extra 10 a year will NOT make up for the fact that you got stuck in a job making 70,000 a year while your fellow PCPs are starting at over 100...

I also heard that you can't choose your area-that they will just randomly assign you anywhere in the country, making this program a no-go for those of us with roots. I'm not sure if that's true or not, it seems really evil.

 

[100041]

Where I live HS teachers are making 50-70k/yr working 188 days/yr. That works out to be 33/hr and 46/hr respectively.

My wife just finished her first year teaching HS math, and made slightly over 30k a year. Oh, and she made an extra 1k for being a cheerleading coach. I'd love to know where you're living that teachers can start out making that much. Around here (Ohio), 50k is probably doable after 10 years of experience and with your first master's (most schools up your pay grade every 15 grad hours).

Oh, and as for your crazy doubling scheme...
When you're making 150k a year, you can have expenses of 120k a year and still invest 30k. Trust me - when you're making 30k a year, you're not managing to save very much even if you're very frugal.

 

[DrMom]

Where I live HS teachers are making 50-70k/yr working 188 days/yr. That works out to be 33/hr and 46/hr respectively.

I don't know anywhere that public HS teachers make that kind of money.

When teachers' salaries are listed, the # given includes ALL benefits paid by the district (insurance premiums--both the employees portion and the employers portion, retirement, disability, gov't withholdings--the employers portion that we don't usually think about, etc). Also, they average in the counselors, principals, and other administrators...who all make significantly more than teachers do. Please take reported teachers' salaries with a huge grain of salt.

Way back when I taught public school, my listed salary was $25K. My actual income, however, was around $18.5K. The average reported teacher salary in my area at the time was over $40K. Also, as far as that whole working 188 days thing goes--in the school year I worked as many hours as someone working full-time for a whole year--just crammed it into the 9 months. Add to that the students with attitudes, ****ty parents, huge class sizes, and lack of support from administration & I have to say that I wouldn't go back to teaching public school even if they paid more than I can make as a physician.

I hope that gives you some perspective.

 

[tncekm]

Your calculation is flawed. It assumes that the teacher only does work while school is in session. You must also account for teacher workdays w/o kids, time spent preparing the classroom during the summer, grading tests/papers after hours, preparing the next day's/week's lessons, parent/teacher conferences, faculty meetings, etc.

I understand this, but they are not the only profession to bring their work home. We'd have to adjust all working salary's if we took this position. Hell, almost everybody brings their work home to some degree. And, not all teachers HAVE to bring their work home.

My science and math teachers graded their papers in the classroom much of the time. My calculus teacher was awesome. You'd finish your test and he'd grade it for you in about 5 mins while the rest of the class was still finishing.

And, unfortunately, science degrees are quite a bit more difficult than humanities degrees and the teachers get paid accordingly. Its easy to find a job as a math/science teacher and difficult for a humanities teacher. Their wages reflect that.

My wife just finished her first year teaching HS math, and made slightly over 30k a year. Oh, and she made an extra 1k for being a cheerleading coach. I'd love to know where you're living that teachers can start out making that much. Around here (Ohio), 50k is probably doable after 10 years of experience and with your first master's (most schools up your pay grade every 15 grad hours).

1k for Cheerleading coach? That's a ripoff. $30k in Ohio, however, probably isn't too bad considering the cost of living differences between there and California, where Im from. But, here is all you need to know, and remember, the numbers I quoted were from science/math teachers I know, so the mean salary for HS teachers will be slightly skewed to the left since it includes the other teachers:

http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/...isjswupdateoptin=&isnewsoptin=&choosesignup=0

Oh, and as for your crazy doubling scheme...
When you're making 150k a year, you can have expenses of 120k a year and still invest 30k. Trust me - when you're making 30k a year, you're not managing to save very much even if you're very frugal.

That's whY I didn't bring $30k/yr into the equation

However, it is possible to have a huge savings fairly easily. Between the ages of 18 and 25 pack away $2k/yr into a Roth IRA, invest and turn 10% (not too difficult with some research), and you'll retire at 65 yrs old with over $1,000,000 even if you never invest another dime after the age of 25. Numbers are simple. At 10% your money doubles roughly every 8 years. Double your money enough time and you've got some amazing results.

But, you're right. If you're making $30k/yr, living on your own, especially with kids, you'll probably be needing financial help... not saving $2k/yr.

I don't know anywhere that public HS teachers make that kind of money.

When teachers' salaries are listed, the # given includes ALL benefits paid by the district (insurance premiums--both the employees portion and the employers portion, retirement, disability, gov't withholdings--the employers portion that we don't usually think about, etc). Also, they average in the counselors, principals, and other administrators...who all make significantly more than teachers do. Please take reported teachers' salaries with a huge grain of salt.

Even if that's the case, that's reasonable to include in a person's salary report (aside form the principals and counselors, they're in separate reports for one, and I was getting this info word of mouth from the teachers.)

Also, as far as that whole working 188 days thing goes--in the school year I worked as many hours as someone working full-time for a whole year--just crammed it into the 9 months.

What did you teach?

Add to that the students with attitudes, ****ty parents, huge class sizes, and lack of support from administration & I have to say that I wouldn't go back to teaching public school even if they paid more than I can make as a physician.

I hope that gives you some perspective.

I can't disagree with you here. I'd never work with HS kids. I'd end up in prison

 

[signomi]

However, you give the impression that everyone not in med school has been earning a big salary since the day they graduated college. This is really not true at all. And 30 may seem like a really old age to start making good money, but it's really not.

I never said that.

I thought the gov't sponsered loan forgiveness programs for folks who worked in underserved areas? In fact, I'm almost sure they do!

Only in underserved areas they choose to recognize. Not all underserved areas are recognized by the program. I have to be where I am to take care of family, so I cannot move away without serious consequences. The only job available here at the time was in the underserved population. I took it because I needed a job desperately, not out of the kindness of my heart. Technically, all people that are medicaid and living in poverty on welfare and food stamps and moving from shelter to shelter are an underserved population. The gov't doesn't recognize that with loan forgiveness unfortunately.

 

[DrMom]

1k for Cheerleading coach? That's a ripoff.

Believe-it-or-not, coaching cheerleading takes up a significant amount of time. You also have to add in the really annoying/overbearing parent factor (worse than with your average teacher-parent interaction).

What did you teach?

Middle school science. There was a lot of prep time involved (lesson plans, writing tests & quizzes, setting up labs, etc). I also had over 170 students every day, so that's a ton of grading any time I assigned anything. In addition, I ran after school detention (which was extra pay that I included in the total I gave before). Add in parent-teacher conferences, phone calls to parents, inservice training, special education accomodations (ie: I had to record myself reading my exams/quizzes for some of my students), etc.

My hourly wage as a teacher wasn't much different than I make as a resident (of course I work more hours now) without any chance of ever making significantly more unless I went into administration.

 

[tncekm]

Middle School...I believe that was a total pain in the butt. I don't think teaching is worth it personally unless you're high school science/math, or college level. The other major bummer about Middle School kids is that EVERYTHING has to be given homework for, etc. So, I can only imagine how much time you spent reading through all that junk at home grading papers.

Parents ARE ridiculous. Hell, my dad ruined my baseball career. Just because he made me never wanna go back he was so embarassing!