Making MCAT pass/fail

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Tensor Fasciae Latte

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The AAMC has stated that a score of 500 on the MCAT displays the ability to handle medical school coursework/exams. The AAMC emphasized to adcoms that 500 is a good score, yet several schools will not give serious consideration to your application if you have a 500 MCAT score. MSAR recently published the new admissions data, and several of these schools have median MCAT scores greater than 515 with some even as high as 521 at several schools. This trend of higher and higher MCAT scores year after year is only going to produce applicants who work like machines to attain a high MCAT and this is leading to a lot of needless stress. Pretty soon, you'll need a 518+ MCAT score to get into an MD school and DO schools MCAT scores will go up to around 510. This should not be happening.
So I am proposing that the AAMC make the MCAT pass/fail, where if you have gotten a score equivalent to a 500, you will pass and the only thing medical schools will see is Pass. I believe that this would make the admissions process much more fair to the applicants and it would allow medical schools to actually start using their "holistic" approach instead of going for applicants with the highest MCAT and GPA. This would lead to a much more well rounded applicant and would greatly benefit the mental state of pre-meds. I welcome all thoughts on the matter.
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Tensor Fasciae Latte said:
The AAMC has stated that a score of 500 on the MCAT displays the ability to handle medical school coursework/exams. The AAMC emphasized to adcoms that 500 is a good score, yet several schools will not give serious consideration to your application if you have a 500 MCAT score. MSAR recently published the new admissions data, and several of these schools have median MCAT scores greater than 515 with some even as high as 521 at several schools. This trend of higher and higher MCAT scores year after year is only going to produce applicants who work like machines to attain a high MCAT and this is leading to a lot of needless stress. Pretty soon, you'll need a 518+ MCAT score to get into an MD school and DO schools MCAT scores will go up to around 510. This should not be happening.
So I am proposing that the AAMC make the MCAT pass/fail, where if you have gotten a score equivalent to a 500, you will pass and the only thing medical schools will see is Pass. I believe that this would make the admissions process much more fair to the applicants and it would allow medical schools to actually start using their "holistic" approach instead of going for applicants with the highest MCAT and GPA. This would lead to a much more well rounded applicant and would greatly benefit the mental state of pre-meds. I welcome all thoughts on the matter.
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It's a seller's market, and we're not merely looking for competence, but mastery.
 
I think we should make college pass/fail! I mean, a C is, by definition, "average", so therefore it's the course equivalent of a 500 on the MCAT. Let's make anything C or above a passing grade, because why should someone with a 2.0 cGPA not have an equal shot as someone with a 4.0? Why don't we do that?

...Oh, I remember why. It's because that's a terrible idea, and objective metrics are a helluva lot more fair than subjective ones.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using SDN mobile
 
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1. It is unlikely that average scores for matriculation will continue to increase linearly like how you described it. The scores are matched to percentiles and unless an increasing amount of people who have no business taking the MCAT begin taking the MCAT, a 50th percentile this year should in theory be very similar to a 50th percentile 10 years ago.
2. Pass/Fail does no good for admissions as a metric and does not give true merit where it may have been earned. Do you really think that a 501 and 528 should be viewed the same way by medical schools?
3. In theory it sounds as though it may make things less stressful, but I personally doubt it. Other metrics would likely increase since other people would find that they could spend the time towards the MCAT on other projects.
4. It would be to the detriment of non-traditional students who want to showcase their current status as someone capable of handling the rigor of medical school despite being mathematically incapable of bringing their GPA up to a sufficient point.

I would vote against making the MCAT pass/fail and consider it a good way to equalize the playing field amongst applications. Sure a 500 means they can handle it; the same way a 70% on a test is a C otherwise known as average. Medical schools can choose the pick of the litter and will do so in the same way that getting a C isn't going to impress anyone.
 
I scored a 525 on the MCAT. I'm sick of people characterizing high stats applicants as "not well rounded". I have thousands of hours of clinical experience, and great bedside manner. When people imply that people with 520+ MCATs are just nerds, don't have social skills, it makes me sad. I've interviewed at schools with 521 median MCATs and a school with a 508 median MCAT. I actually found that the 521 were much more well-rounded than the latter and had a lot of diversity of experiences. Please stop categorizing schools that have stats applicants as schools that only take students who can't interact with patients. We can, trust me.

"believe that this would make the admissions process much more fair to the applicants and it would allow medical schools to actually start using their "holistic" approach instead of going for applicants with the highest MCAT and GPA."

They're going for both now. To get into a top-10 you need both. Everyone has high stats at the top-25 schools. You think that the difference between an acceptance there is a 518 vs 519? Or a 3.86 vs. 3.88? NO. It's the interview, the essays, the activities, the factors that get at who you are as a person and what motivates you to medicine. The people who get into medical school at the top places have both, not just high stats. There is already holistic review happening, and part of that is academic preparedness.
 
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I disagree. I want to know that my doctor or my loved one's doctor worked like a machine to earn the privilege of being the caregiver. I don't really care for their backpacking trip across Europe or their talent in painting. At the end of the day, we're going to have to differentiate applicants on the basis of some measure - I would rather have that measure be GPA/MCAT over subjective life experiences.
 
STLouisVuittonDon said:
I scored a 525 on the MCAT. I'm sick of people characterizing high stats applicants as "not well rounded". I have thousands of hours of clinical experience, and great bedside manner. When people imply that people with 520+ MCATs are just nerds, don't have social skills, it makes me sad. I've interviewed at schools with 521 median MCATs and a school with a 508 median MCAT. I actually found that the 521 were much more well-rounded than the latter and had a lot of diversity of experiences. Please stop categorizing schools that have stats applicants as schools that only take students who can't interact with patients. We can, trust me.

"believe that this would make the admissions process much more fair to the applicants and it would allow medical schools to actually start using their "holistic" approach instead of going for applicants with the highest MCAT and GPA."

They're going for both now. To get into a top-10 you need both. Everyone has high stats at the top-25 schools. You think that the difference between an acceptance there is a 518 vs 519? Or a 3.86 vs. 3.88? NO. It's the interview, the essays, the activities, the factors that get at who you are as a person and what motivates you to medicine. The people who get into medical school at the top places have both, not just high stats. There is already holistic review happening, and part of that is academic preparedness.
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Love the before and after screen name
 
This is not unique to med school admissions, it happens when you apply for residency as well. The most competitive specialties - Derm, Neurosurgery, Ortho, ENT, Plastics, Rad Onc, Urology, Radiology, Ophthalmology - all have ridiculously high avg Step 1 scores that seem to increase every year (above 240 for all, 250s for some like Derm, meanwhile a passing score is 192 and national avg is 228). My point is this is the way it is not only for premeds but med students as well. I don't anticipate things changing so might as well get used to it now.
 
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Lol, it wouldn’t be fair to anyone who scored over 500, which is a very significant portion of those who make it in. Why would someone who scored 520+ be on the same level as someone who scored a 500, assuming all extracurriculars are the same? There’s a huge difference between the two.
 
21Rush12 said:
Did you not get yours? Sent to the registered address about 2 weeks after scores come out.
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He/she might be in Alaska or Hawaii so it may take longer than 2 weeks to ship.
 
Why complain when you could be studying?

I don’t think more than a hanful of people ace the MCAT without effort.

The people getting 515+ are applying their work ethic to all aspects of their life and are likely successful because of that.

When I inevitably end up as a patient one day, I want that sort of doctor to care for me.

TL;DR: Don’t hate the players, or the game, or anything.
 
I know a lot of ~500 scoring buddies and unless your including ability to party hard, they are not, my friend, what one would call well rounded..

From what I've seen, the ones with the higher scores are typically much more well rounded from a medicine point of view. And if they put in the work to score better than X percentile of other takers, they should be rewarded accordingly.
 
Per OP's previous posts, I have learned that OP scored below 500 on the MCAT, which explains OP's perspective on the MCAT and how it should be scored.

I can't help but think that if OP had done better on the MCAT, this thread would not exist.

To OP: Get off SDN and go study!
 
BadgerMedCj said:
I know a lot of ~500 scoring buddies and unless your including ability to party hard, they are not, my friend, what one would call well rounded..

From what I've seen, the ones with the higher scores are typically much more well rounded from a medicine point of view. And if they put in the work to score better than X percentile of other takers, they should be rewarded accordingly.
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Uh I got a 504 and I'm extremely well rounded! College athlete, bartender, over 1000+ hours of clinical experience, research followed by a publication, global health humanitarian mission, and these are just a few. Just because we are trying to acknowledge that 515+ people aren't weirdos doesn't mean you should knock us ~500 people either!

But, pass/fail for the MCAT wouldn't work. I just think about in college i worked hard, harder than my classmates, and my GPA shows it and I want credit for that awesome GPA. I worked hard for the MCAT too (just as hard if not harder!) But for some reason, my score doesn't necessarily show it. Oh well. Life isn't fair sometimes it works in our favor and sometimes it doesn't
 
I've been on a somewhat similar wavelength as OP for quite some time on this site. My position differs in some key ways OP might want to consider though:

1. I don't care (so much) that some schools want 520 students and other schools are "less picky". I do care that 50% of applications to any school can be thrown out right away because every single one of those applicants does not have any kind of realistic shot at that medical school or medical school in general. This strikes me as a somewhat slimy way for medical schools to generate a small revenue stream from misinformed, misguided, or ignorant applicants.

Schools should be honest about their expectations. If you don't want anyone below 515 in your class, don't accept applications from anyone with less than a 515 and make that knowledge perfectly clear on AMCAS or your webpage. Save our time and yours, adcoms. Afraid you're going to lose those "diamonds in the rough"? I'm sure there are more than enough polished diamonds in the applicant pool that nobody will really notice and those "diamonds in the rough" will get a chance to shine at schools with less stringent expectations. What I'm advocating for is a transparent P/F line for each school, decided by the school itself. After that bar, MCAT scores simply arent considered (erased, even, from the application entirely) and the admissions committee must attempt to be more holistic.

2. Consider the consequences of creating such a system. The reality is that most applicants are very similar, even those at the very top of the LizzyM foodchain (or, as @LizzyM knows them, the students she actually meets at the interview). Implementing a P/F bar for academic metrics on a largely homogenous applicant pool will not necessarily mean that admissions becomes more holistic; rather, it might mean that admissions becomes more arbitrary with undergrad pedigree and ECs becoming more important. A gap year might become even more common than it already is because it might become too difficult to truly differentiate yourself during the undergrad years alone. Gap years are already becoming more common, but we should think as to whether we should make an already long training pipeline even longer and potentially more expensive.

Personally, I think the differences between a 515 and 523 will be ultimately miniscule in terms of their ability to succeed in medical school, match, and eventually practice medicine (and I believe the research bears this out as well), but there are a significant number of schools where that gap is the difference between going from the printer to the shredder or an adcom's desk. We should all feel at least a little embarrassed about how ridiculous this process can be.

Ultimately, no change at the admissions level will really change the quality or kinds of doctors we produce. Those changes happen at the level of undergraduate and graduate medical education, incentives and reimbursements schemes for practicing physicians, debt financing mechanisms, costs of education. That is, material conditions within and without the physician workforce determine the kinds and quality of physicians we produce, not admissions. The job of admissions is essentially to check that someone has the constitution and base aptitude for medicine, is capable of succeeding in medical school, and is a dependable individual. We should, however, continue to ask ourselves how we can go about rationally gatekeeping medicine and I'd like it for programs to be more honest than they are with their potential students.
 
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What I would find entertaining would be a pass/fail system for retakes. If you score < 500, you may retake but if you score 500 or more, you may not (like the step 1 exam). That would really have people waiting until they were very prepared.

Up to a point, MCAT scores are predictive of Step 1 scores and graduation in 4 years and in 5 years. Schools will take some applicants with lower MCAT scores while having a preference for higher scores. Would you want to say that 500 or 550 in each section of the SAT is passing and that the numbers don't matter?? Should undergrad admissions go to that system?

Frankly, as long as MCAT is part of the formula for ranking med schools, some schools will be stat ****** because they are prestige ****** who are trying to climb and/or avoid slipping in the rankings.
 
Lucca said:
1. I don't care (so much) that some schools want 520 students and other schools are "less picky". I do care that 50% of applications to any school can be thrown out right away because every single one of those applicants does not have any kind of realistic shot at that medical school or medical school in general. This strikes me as a somewhat slimy way for medical schools to generate a small revenue stream from misinformed, misguided, or ignorant applicants.

Schools should be honest about their expectations. If you don't want anyone below 515 in your class, don't accept applications from anyone with less than a 515 and make that knowledge perfectly clear on AMCAS or your webpage. Save our time and yours, adcoms. Afraid you're going to lose those "diamonds in the rough"? I'm sure there are more than enough polished diamonds in the applicant pool that nobody will really notice and those "diamonds in the rough" will get a chance to shine at schools with less stringent expectations. What I'm advocating for is a transparent P/F line for each school, decided by the school itself. After that bar, MCAT scores simply arent considered (erased, even, from the application entirely) and the admissions committee must attempt to be more holistic.
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I agree with this 100%. I don't care that WashU has a sky high MCAT average/median, but I do care that the average MCAT of applicants to WashU have a 504 or something like that. I don't know how they can take these applicant's money knowing full well that they have 0 intention of ever even looking at their app. Be honest with the applicants at your expectations.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I agree with this 100%. I don't care that WashU has a sky high MCAT average/median, but I do care that the average MCAT of applicants to WashU have a 504 or something like that. I don't know how they can take these applicant's money knowing full well that they have 0 intention of ever even looking at their app. Be honest with the applicants at your expectations.
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My concern would be that mandatory MCAT floors would further encourage top schools to compete with each in other in securing the classes with the highest median MCAT scores. At least now you technically have of getting in without a sky-high MCAT. I think rather than 510+ floor, the floor should be set be at the first percentile of the last entering class. That way people who scored so lowly that they have essentially no chance of getting in won't be compelled to donate their money to institutions that don't need it. And people with relatively low scores can still have a chance of acceptance, highlighting their other strong characteristics in their applications and interviews.
 
I guess I dont understand why it is the schools fault that applicants with 0% chances are applying there and wasting money. Does anyone think a school saying, “Sorry, we wont look at your app unless you hit 513+ on the MCAT” would go over well?

Its the applicants money, they are the ones responsible for putting it to good use.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
I agree with this 100%. I don't care that WashU has a sky high MCAT average/median, but I do care that the average MCAT of applicants to WashU have a 504 or something like that. I don't know how they can take these applicant's money knowing full well that they have 0 intention of ever even looking at their app. Be honest with the applicants at your expectations.
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I don't think it's fair to just blame the schools though. Applicants also have access to these stats and in my experience there are a lot of people who apply to schools they are not competitive for, but they have an ego and think they deserve to be at a top 10, for example based on their undergrad pedigree. I'm not saying applicants shouldn't have a couple reach schools, that is perfectly reasonable, but I personally know people who were unreasonable in where they applied because of their egos, or they just had rich parents who were willing to pay for them to apply wherever they wanted.
 
What is the best way to distinguish between people? Having a small committee debate over the merit of one mission trip vs. another, or the merit of volunteering at one shelter vs. a food drive at another school, what about the GPAs of applicants from different schools? The MCAT is the great equalizer. It has the potential to enlighten if a 3.95 GPA might have not taken many science courses fluffing their GPA at an easy school and maybe aren't ready for an extremely expedited 1-1.5 year foundational curriculum. It also has the potential to reward a 3.35 GPA in a ridiculously challenging major at a difficult school.
 
SuaveCardigans said:
I guess I dont understand why it is the schools fault that applicants with 0% chances are applying there and wasting money. Does anyone think a school saying, “Sorry, we wont look at your app unless you hit 513+ on the MCAT” would go over well?

Its the applicants money, they are the ones responsible for putting it to good use.
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I don’t think of it so much as a responsibility as being respectful of people’s time and effort. If someone has no chance, you are telling them to move on and make better choices for their school list.
 
This proposal only sounds like it would benefit one niche interest: the medical school applicant with good grades from a reputable institution and maybe connections who doesn’t do as well as they’d like on the MCAT. Everyone else involved in the process would stand to lose or be neutral. Sounds like a non starter.

Believe it or not even the admitted students need quite a bit of accommodation for their intolerance to stress. I don’t know if the system could stand people who can’t even tolerate the stress of the MCAT.
 
LizzyM said:
What I would find entertaining would be a pass/fail system for retakes. If you score < 500, you may retake but if you score 500 or more, you may not (like the step 1 exam). That would really have people waiting until they were very prepared.

Up to a point, MCAT scores are predictive of Step 1 scores and graduation in 4 years and in 5 years. Schools will take some applicants with lower MCAT scores while having a preference for higher scores. Would you want to say that 500 or 550 in each section of the SAT is passing and that the numbers don't matter?? Should undergrad admissions go to that system?

Frankly, as long as MCAT is part of the formula for ranking med schools, some schools will be stat ****** because they are prestige ****** who are trying to climb and/or avoid slipping in the rankings.
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From the studies I've seen regarding correlation between MCAT and STEP1 scores there was only a weak to moderate correlation, and the moderate correlation was seen when looking at individual section scores with the Biological Sciences section beings the best predictor of success on the STEP1. The factor that has the highest correlation with MCAT score is socioeconomic status with those in the highest economic status scoring an average of a 30 (on the old MCAT) while those in the lowest economic status scoring on average what I believe was a 24.

And unlike the MCAT where your undergraduate institution does not really have an incentive or motivation to actually help guide you and give you resources to help those that are coming from lower socioeconomic status actually be on an equal playing field, Medical schools -at least from the interviews I've been on - all make an active effort to really help their students succeed. This is why I believe medical school look for those diamonds in the rough - the applicants that show an incredible work ethic but started life with a ****y hand.
 
I think part of the problem is that its become the norm to dedicate 6+ months of your life in order to do well on the MCAT.

I'm sorry but if you put things into perspective, you're never going to be able to take 6+ months off from life again to pass an exam. There should be more scrutiny placed on HOW you get your mcat score, rather than just getting the score. I think someone working full time and scoring 505 is very different than someone doing nothing but mcat prep for 6 months and scoring 515

Until schools start doing that, premeds will continue to feel the stress to take a year off and score 515+ at no cost.
 
DelayedGratification said:
I think part of the problem is that its become the norm to dedicate 6+ months of your life in order to do well on the MCAT.

I'm sorry but if you put things into perspective, you're never going to be able to take 6+ months off from life again to pass an exam. There should be more scrutiny placed on HOW you get your mcat score, rather than just getting the score. I think someone working full time and scoring 505 is very different than someone doing nothing but mcat prep for 6 months and scoring 515

Until schools start doing that, premeds will continue to feel the stress to take a year off and score 515+ at no cost.
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This is a very important point. It is been said numerous times that medical schools don't care how much time it took you to get there, but they care about your accomplishments regardless. This makes everyone think gap year = necessary for competitiveness. There should be a metric that measures or values the concentration of work done in a short amount of time. Sure, you can get your Bachelor's in 10 years and do a ton of activities and blow everyone else out of the water with EC's, and sure, you can take three years and pay out a mortgage for test prep to get a 520+, but what about the student who takes six weeks coming from disadvantaged economic state and is able to get the same score in a prompt matter? Shouldn't medical schools value working under pressure, assimilation of large amounts of information quickly, initiative to do things in a prompt manner?

Just some thoughts...
 
DelayedGratification said:
I think part of the problem is that its become the norm to dedicate 6+ months of your life in order to do well on the MCAT.

I'm sorry but if you put things into perspective, you're never going to be able to take 6+ months off from life again to pass an exam. There should be more scrutiny placed on HOW you get your mcat score, rather than just getting the score. I think someone working full time and scoring 505 is very different than someone doing nothing but mcat prep for 6 months and scoring 515

Until schools start doing that, premeds will continue to feel the stress to take a year off and score 515+ at no cost.
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Its not like everyone who did well dedicated 6 months to studying, and doing so doesnt guarantee a high score.

There seems to be a lot of straw man arguments about high MCATs every time one of these threads comes up
 
Lucca said:
I don’t think of it so much as a responsibility as being respectful of people’s time and effort. If someone has no chance, you are telling them to move on and make better choices for their school list.
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I feel like most places are kinda trying to do that though when they offer averages in FAQ sections. There may be a better way to do it, but I still think you would have plenty of people applying with a “why not” attitude.

I agree it can be misleading when they show the range of values (Duke and WashU come to mind) with a low value of a 502 or whatever. Obviously, that only applies to outlier candidates
 
SuaveCardigans said:
Its not like everyone who did well dedicated 6 months to studying, and doing so doesnt guarantee a high score.

There seems to be a lot of straw man arguments about high MCATs every time one of these threads comes up
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At least at my undergrad the pre-medical admissions office sends out a report that says what those who received high scores did to prepare. The vast majority spent 3 months studying 6-8 hours a day with minimal to no other commitments or took an MCAT Prep Course - which again many of those coming from a lower socioeconomic status simply can't do. Of course there are a few who can do well without studying much but you can't possibly believe that that group makes up a sizable amount of those that do well.
 
SuaveCardigans said:
Its not like everyone who did well dedicated 6 months to studying, and doing so doesnt guarantee a high score.

There seems to be a lot of straw man arguments about high MCATs every time one of these threads comes up
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I'm not sure where I said everyone with a high mcat takes 6 months off...

If you score 515 on your first attempt without taking a gap year or while working full time, that score is significant. It shouldn't be compared to a 520 achieved after dedicating 6+ months of your life to the exam
 
Dr. Meliodas said:
At least at my undergrad the pre-medical admissions office sends out a report that says what those who received high scores did to prepare. The vast majority spent 3 months studying 6-8 hours a day with minimal to no other commitments or took an MCAT Prep Course - which again many of those coming from a lower socioeconomic status simply can't do. Of course there are a few who can do well without studying much but you can't possibly believe that that group makes up a sizable amount of those that do well.
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I think you're trying to argue that the MCAT isn't fair because it disadvantages low SES students. Are you implying that you agree with the original poster and think MCAT should be pass/fail and move to other metrics? Lower SES students are even more affected in those areas. Low SES students don't have the time to have thousands of hours of unpaid volunteer work, and don't have the same access to research labs and PIs publishing. They might need to work non-medical jobs to support themselves while more well-off students can go on a mission trip paid for by their parents. The MCAT isn't fair argument applies to every level of the application so it becomes moot. The MCAT is still the great equalizer because it makes everyone perform the same activity so they can be judged apples to apples
 
STLouisVuittonDon said:
I think you're trying to argue that the MCAT isn't fair because it disadvantages low SES students. Are you implying that you agree with the original poster and think MCAT should be pass/fail and move to other metrics? Lower SES students are even more affected in those areas. Low SES students don't have the time to have thousands of hours of unpaid volunteer work, and don't have the same access to research labs and PIs publishing. They might need to work non-medical jobs to support themselves while more well-off students can go on a mission trip paid for by their parents. The MCAT isn't fair argument applies to every level of the application so it becomes moot. The MCAT is still the great equalizer because it makes everyone perform the same activity so they can be judged apples to apples
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But you stop comparing apples to apples when scores are looked at in a vacuum with no regard to if the person was working full time or taking a full course load versus someone with the means to take a prep class and dedicate months without any other commitment
 
Factoring in how ppl study for the McAT is insane. We would have to invent an entirely new game just to study for the test in the “right” way. Setting up a lot of people to fail themselves. We need less of this kind of gamesmanship stuff not more.
 
Lucca said:
Factoring in how ppl study for the McAT is insane. We would have to invent an entirely new game just to study for the test in the “right” way. Setting up a lot of people to fail themselves. We need less of this kind of gamesmanship stuff not more.
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Is it hard to factor in how someone studies? 100%
But you can factor in time taken or # of attempts or what other activities you had going on at the time.

When you look at the USMLE, it's easier to compare apples to apples because most everyone is expected to take the exam in the same time frame and while being a medical student
 
DelayedGratification said:
I'm not sure where I said everyone with a high mcat takes 6 months off...

If you score 515 on your first attempt without taking a gap year or while working full time, that score is significant. It shouldn't be compared to a 520 achieved after dedicating 6+ months of your life to the exam
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Lucca said:
Factoring in how ppl study for the McAT is insane. We would have to invent an entirely new game just to study for the test in the “right” way. Setting up a lot of people to fail themselves. We need less of this kind of gamesmanship stuff not more.
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Actually, there is a simpler way. Its a matter of roughly conceptualizing the timeframe each candidate had for completing his academics, EC's and MCAT. If he took 4 years to complete undergrad, get in good clinical and volunteerism plus research and a 515 MCAT, he should be chosen over someone who took six years because they needed a ton of time to study for MCAT.

I think this is already done when looking at course load: 8 credits a semester over six years will almost necessarily look worse than 16 credits a semester over three and a half, even if the former candidate had a few extra points on his MCAT.
 
DelayedGratification said:
Is it hard to factor in how someone studies? 100%
But you can factor in time taken or # of attempts or what other activities you had going on at the time.

When you look at the USMLE, it's easier to compare apples to apples because most everyone is expected to take the exam in the same time frame and while being a medical student
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This
 
DelayedGratification said:
But you stop comparing apples to apples when scores are looked at in a vacuum with no regard to if the person was working full time or taking a full course load versus someone with the means to take a prep class and dedicate months without any other commitment
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Yep, and that's as close as we'll ever get. At least the Y axis is the same. If we threw out the MCAT, both the Y axis and the X axis would be different.
 
STLouisVuittonDon said:
I think you're trying to argue that the MCAT isn't fair because it disadvantages low SES students. Are you implying that you agree with the original poster and think MCAT should be pass/fail and move to other metrics? Lower SES students are even more affected in those areas. Low SES students don't have the time to have thousands of hours of unpaid volunteer work, and don't have the same access to research labs and PIs publishing. They might need to work non-medical jobs to support themselves while more well-off students can go on a mission trip paid for by their parents. The MCAT isn't fair argument applies to every level of the application so it becomes moot. The MCAT is still the great equalizer because it makes everyone perform the same activity so they can be judged apples to apples
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Sorry if I wasn't clear. I do not think the MCAT should be pass fail at all and agree with you that although not perfect it is the better way to compare applicants across schools as of now. I think that one of the potential solution for those from lower SES would be to improve pre-medical resources at undergraduate institutions. I think many medical school do actually take a holistic look at applicants and that is why some applicants get in with lower MCATs.

I don't agree with your statement about how "they might need to work non-medical jobs to support themselves". There is no reason why they can't get a medically related job that kills two birds with one stone (you get clinical experience and get paid). I did this and worked for pay as a research assistant got tons of lab experience, several publications, and got paid. Same can be done working as a medical scribe. Those from Lower SES have to be more strategic in the task they chose to do than those more well-off students who can chose to do whatever interest them the most. It is the student's responsibility to be a well rounded applicant and apply when they are actually ready too. No one should be accepted who does not have any clinical experience. By no means should coming from a lower SES mean you can get in being less qualified.

My point is that a lower MCAT does not necessarily mean you are less qualified. Those from lower SES also bring a much different perspective to medical schools than those coming from more well off applicants. They've lived in underserved communities, they know the mindset and are better equip to reach that more diverse patient population which is very important as well.
 
Dr. Meliodas said:
Sorry if I wasn't clear. I do not think the MCAT should be pass fail at all and agree with you that although not perfect it is the better way to compare applicants across schools as of now. I think that one of the potential solution for those from lower SES would be to improve pre-medical resources at undergraduate institutions. I think many medical school do actually take a holistic look at applicants and that is why some applicants get in with lower MCATs.

I don't agree with your statement about how "they might need to work non-medical jobs to support themselves". There is no reason why they can't get a medically related job that kills two birds with one stone (you get clinical experience and get paid). I did this and worked for pay as a research assistant got tons of lab experience, several publications, and got paid. Same can be done working as a medical scribe. Those from Lower SES have to be more strategic in the task they chose to do than those more well-off students who can chose to do whatever interest them the most. It is the student's responsibility to be a well rounded applicant and apply when they are actually ready too. No one should be accepted who does not have any clinical experience. By no means should coming from a lower SES mean you can get in being less qualified.

My point is that a lower MCAT does not necessarily mean you are less qualified. Those from lower SES also bring a much different perspective to medical schools than those coming from more well off applicants. They've lived in underserved communities, they know the mindset and are better equip to reach that more diverse patient population which is very important as well.
Click to expand...

I agree with all of this. I said 'might'. For many of the people who get EMT licenses and work on an ambulance, campus EMS service, or in the hospital as a tech, those jobs are harder to get for lower SES (EMT classes and licensure can be thousands of dollars). For scribe work, the training and hours might not line up with lower SES schedules/transportation resourses (taking public transit 25 minutes to the hospital). Same thing for research assistant jobs. Sure, it's possible. But it's all harder
 
STLouisVuittonDon said:
I agree with all of this. I said 'might'. For many of the people who get EMT licenses and work on an ambulance, campus EMS service, or in the hospital as a tech, those jobs are harder to get for lower SES (EMT classes and licensure can be thousands of dollars). For scribe work, the training and hours might not line up with lower SES schedules/transportation resourses (taking public transit 25 minutes to the hospital). Same thing for research assistant jobs. Sure, it's possible. But it's all harder
Click to expand...

It is definitely harder and is something I think many admissions committees do notice from those that actually do it (which again I do not think many do). It shows heart and passion for the medical field, and everyone loves rooting for the underdog. But again in this case if everything else is there and an applicant has a lower MCAT I don't think that the MCAT should keep them out of medical school again because it is only weakly to moderately associated with STEP1 Performance (from studies I've looked into) and only moderately when you look at individual sections with the Biological Sciences section having the highest predictive value - and everything else in the students application points to them having the chops to make it through medical school. It would also help if the applicants strongest section was in Biological Sciences.
 
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