Malignant Programs?

[music89]

How do you know if a program is malignant? Obviously it won't be listed on FREIDA...so how would you find out? A Google search??? Rumors heard from others?? How you feel about the program at the interview???

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[Psai]

It's mostly hearsay. You will meet people who end up at different programs on the interview trail or you have friends at different programs or medical schools. You can also see what people say on websites like scutwork or even here at times but those reviews are a little out of date and usually biased as angry people are probably more likely to put up a review than a happy person. You can't really tell about a program just from the interview day. They are usually trying to put their best foot forward and want to impress the applicants just as much as you want to impress them.

An indirect way to get a sense of the quality of a program is to see how many IMGs/DOs there are compared to US grads.

 

[Goro]

A clinical dean once told me that you can spot a malignant program if it's one in a competitive specialty and it still has open spots.

 

[Donald Juan]

How do you know if a program is malignant? Obviously it won't be listed on FREIDA...so how would you find out? A Google search??? Rumors heard from others?? How you feel about the program at the interview???

It's tough to know, google searches can be unreliable, and rumors through the grape vine might just descend from other people's google searches.

Practically speaking, here's your course of action at choosing programs: When you apply, don't worry about any rumors about malignancy. Choose programs that line up with your region/specialty/competitiveness/career goals. Keep your eyes/ears open to what programs are considered "malignant" but always take it with a grain of salt. If you happen to interview at a program that you heard was malignant, and you still think they are high on your list, go there for a second look and feel it out for yourself.

 

[Buffeye]

It's mostly hearsay. You will meet people who end up at different programs on the interview trail or you have friends at different programs or medical schools. You can also see what people say on websites like scutwork or even here at times but those reviews are a little out of date and usually biased as angry people are probably more likely to put up a review than a happy person. You can't really tell about a program just from the interview day. They are usually trying to put their best foot forward and want to impress the applicants just as much as you want to impress them.

An indirect way to get a sense of the quality of a program is to see how many IMGs/DOs there are compared to US grads.

When did DOs stop being AMGs/US grads?

 

[operaman]

You really can't tell honestly. And many of the rumors stem from past residents who created their own problems. Even the open spot thing is problematic - sometimes things just don't work out right and a program doesn't target it's interviews appropriately.

Things I would look at that may or may not be any clue:
1) how happy are the current residents?
2) how many show up to interview day or any other events?
3) how many faculty are part of the day? Is it all hands on deck? Small group?
4) how tired do the current residents seem?
5) what's the call schedule like?
6) do the residents feel comfortable taking to or calling attendings? What about juniors?
7) how many residents have left or been fired in recent years?
8) recent faculty changes? A steady exodus may suggest general unhappiness of staff. Could also mean it's a prestigious place and faculty leave for bigger academic positions.

I think you out enough factors together and you can start to spot a malignant program. Or at least a program where most people are overworked and unhappy. So much ultimately depends on you and what you bring to the situation.

 

[Psai]

A clinical dean once told me that you can spot a malignant program if it's one in a competitive specialty and it still has open spots.

Meh from the data it looked like a bunch of derm spots were open this year and I seriously doubt that they are malignant enough to deter all those 250, five pubs, amazing cv derm applicants. Sometimes programs get cocky and don't rank enough when they are trying to recruit from the same pool of amazing applicants as the other top programs or try to save spots etc.

 

[235009]

A clinical dean once told me that you can spot a malignant program if it's one in a competitive specialty and it still has open spots.

a program not filling represents a miscalculation by the program with regards to who and how many applicants they interviewed or ranked. There are plenty of malignant programs that fill every year because they target less competitive or more desperate applicants. Unfortunately the whole residency application process is based around hearsay and as @Psai said in addition to gathering opinions of various people and getting a gut feeling during the interview a more objective way is to look and see which programs US MDs avoid.

 

[Lee Ik-jun MD]

Be careful with the university affiliation too.
i know a couple of Internal medicine programs with " affiliated with Yal* School of Medicine,"and they're not very academic at all.

 

[pulmoblast]

If someone does a study...I think the following will be the most sensitive and specific for gauging if a program is malignant or not

1. The quality of food/beverages/refreshments you get while interviewing
2. The average BMI of support staff/nurses

I am being completely serious here


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[235009]

Be careful with the university affiliation too.
i know a couple of Internal medicine programs with " affiliated with Yal* School of Medicine,"and they're not very academic at all.

This is VERY common and prevalent across the country.


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[Psai]

This is VERY common and prevalent across the country.


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Mt Sinai is putting their name on literally everything

 

[Crayola227]

if the Chief Resident essentially comes out saying it's a malignant program during the tour, I think you can count on that! (this happened to me)

Same thing at the pre-interview dinner or the interview lunch.

If it's that bad that current residents are confiding to you on interview day (keep in mind a lot of programs try to encourage the happy ones to participate and try to shield you getting contact with the disgruntled), that's some pretty serious stuff from the horse's mouth

watch how the residents interact with each other too

one program I knew 5 min into the day during morning report when everyone was essentially yelling at each other, that it was not the place for me

 

[WinslowPringle]

If at the night-before dinner, the residents start talking up the other programs you applied to and tell you how great they are and how they wish they were there - it might be a malignant program.
When the resident interviewing you says, "Yeah, [the PD] yells a lot at us in the OR....He has a short temper" - it might be a malignant program.
When the PD tells you straight up that they fired multiple residents "because they couldn't cut it" - it might be a malignant program.

 

[Dr. Death]

Can you guys give some examples of what is meant by malignant?

 

[darkjedi]

I found it to be a red flag if the program didn't match anyone from their own institution, particularly if they had a strong medical school attached to it. If their own med students who had first hand insight into the program didn't want to match there, it should give you pause.

 

[qwerty89]

I found it to be a red flag if the program didn't match anyone from their own institution, particularly if they had a strong medical school attached to it. If their own med students who had first hand insight into the program didn't want to match there, it should give you pause.

Bingo. This method works best in big cities like NYC or Chicago.

Can't blame a Rush student for choosing residency at Northwestern or University of Chicago, but if they are consistently choosing Loyola or UIC over Rush then that says something.

 

[Oh_Gee]

I found it to be a red flag if the program didn't match anyone from their own institution, particularly if they had a strong medical school attached to it. If their own med students who had first hand insight into the program didn't want to match there, it should give you pause.

what if they just wanted to live somewhere else

 

[Law2Doc]

The only way you'd ever really know if a place was truly malignant would be to get the inside scoop from residents and former residents. So tap into whatever alumni network you can, and make the most of your resident interactions at interviews. But just be wary of the lone person who is having an awful time of it, while the rest of the residents seem to be loving their program - every diamond gets one flaw.
I always felt you could get decent insight into resident life and interactions based on the pre-interview dinners, and who and how many residents showed up.

 

[WingedOx]

Bingo. This method works best in big cities like NYC or Chicago.

Can't blame a Rush student for choosing residency at Northwestern or University of Chicago, but if they are consistently choosing Loyola or UIC over Rush then that says something.

I'd love to know what specialty we're talking about here.

 

[darkjedi]

I think this is a potentially useful but also somewhat dangerous metric, since you are dealing with very small sample size and as someone just mentioned, you don't know the motivations of the individuals involved.

Our best M4 this year wants to go to a specific geographic locale for family reason. If we as a program help him fulfill that goal, that's a really good sign for the strength and benevolence (is that the opposite of malignant?) of our program.

what if they just wanted to live somewhere else

Just looking a single class wouldn't be useful, but I think looking overall at the program that would have 3-7 classes worth of residents should give a decent indicator as to whether or not they retain their own talent. It's obviously not a perfect metric, but I think it's really difficult to measure malignancy outside of actually talking to several different residents of the program. Even then, that's not a perfect measure since they could just be lying to themselves, want to sell the program to keep it's prestige, or just be a grumpy person.

 

[cbrons]

If someone does a study...I think the following will be the most sensitive and specific for gauging if a program is malignant or not

1. The quality of food/beverages/refreshments you get while interviewing
2. The average BMI of support staff/nurses

I am being completely serious here


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So for #2, the higher the BMI of support staff, the more or less malignant?

More IMGs = More malignant?

 

[cbrons]

So from this thread:

Red flags for malignancy in residency program (to look out for when interviewing):

1. Few residents show up for pre-interview dinner.
2. Fellowships have low % of residency graduates
3. Food/beverages served at pre-interview dinner is bad.
4. Nurses/support staff are fat.

Any others?

 

[Athrowaway11]

When did DOs stop being AMGs/US grads?

Sorry bro, everyone knows that the more allopathic US graduates that are at a program usually means the program is more competitive. Top programs attract top talent. I wish the DO bias weren’t a thing, but it’s true.