Malpractice Risk with Bilateral Knee Replacement?

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BLADEMDA

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  1. Attending Physician
Here is the situation:


79 year old male presents for Bilateral Total knee Replacement. He is in his usual state of poor health but has notes/records from Primary and Cardiology. He has history of CAD, COPD, HTN, PVD, DM, etc.

1. EF of 35%, Moderate CAD, Mild Aotic Stenosis, Mild Pulm HTN, 2 Coronary stents placed in '06. Stress Thalium- No change from '07- "cleared" by cardiology. (Off Plavix for 1 week. )

2. COPD- 2 liters of O2 at night. Room Air Saturation is 89%.


Other pearls:

3 different inhalers incl. a steroid inhaler
Baby Asa
Calcium Channel blocker and ACE inhibitor
PO DM medications, Insulin at night (not taken)


EKG: SB, rate=59 First degree AV block, LVH, Non specific ST/T Changes

Labs- Hgb-16.9 PLt- 387,000 CR- 1.35 K=3.9 Glucose- 356 (this AM)
 
What's your plan for this case? Any problem doing Bilateral Total Knees on this patient? Surgery will take 4-5 hours for both knees.
 
If everybody is on board with this you don't have a lot of leverage, but this is clearly a patient who is at high risk for BKA.
 
Here is the situation:


79 year old male presents for Bilateral Total knee Replacement. He is in his usual state of poor health but has notes/records from Primary and Cardiology. He has history of CAD, COPD, HTN, PVD, DM, etc.

1. EF of 35%, Moderate CAD, Mild Aotic Stenosis, Mild Pulm HTN, 2 Coronary stents placed in '06. Stress Thalium- No change from '07- "cleared" by cardiology. (Off Plavix for 1 week. )

2. COPD- 2 liters of O2 at night. Room Air Saturation is 89%.


Other pearls:

3 different inhalers incl. a steroid inhaler
Baby Asa
Calcium Channel blocker and ACE inhibitor
PO DM medications, Insulin at night (not taken)


EKG: SB, rate=59 First degree AV block, LVH, Non specific ST/T Changes

Labs- Hgb-16.9 PLt- 387,000 CR- 1.35 K=3.9 Glucose- 356 (this AM)

How's this guy going to rehab with his cardiopulmonary insufficiency? And how many years of benefit is a 79yo guy with this many comorbidities going to get?
.

I would load the boat by reiterating to surgeon, patient and family just how sick the guy was, and how many ways he could die from this, potential for ICU, etc.

Glucose > 350 is unacceptable IMO for a totally elective case

A-line, large PIVs.

I would consider epidural if I really believed he had abstained from Plavix for 7 days (don't suppose he's had a platelet mapping study). Baby ASA is ok.

Hopefully he didn't take his ACEI on DOS.
 
Having just said all that, I feel like this is the classic oral boards case that can go either way. If I pick regional/neuraxial, the patient will refuse. If I pick ETT, it will be difficult airway, or he will just never get off the vent.
 
Fix the glucose. Increase chance of infection especially with bilateral hardware + hyperosmolar/DKA. This case can be cancelled based on a glucose of 350+.

Once fixed: LMA or Ett +/- fem blocks keeping in mind that nerve injury is higher with bilateral knees (vs one at a time). You could also go with spinal catheter with ketafol gtt.

+/- A-line... depending on the pulm htn numbers.

Ask why 2 knees at once vs one at a time in an 80 y/o.

This sounds like a typical patient at my hospital (minus the 80 year old for blt. Knees- that age group gets one at a time over here... IF and when we do them).
 
80 y/o for bl. knees needs to be reasonably healthy. What is his life expectancy and current functional capacity? These cases are infrequent.
 
He's hyperglycemic because he didn't take his insulin last night. If I had a reason to believe he was always poorly controlled, maybe I'd punt him for better optimization. Otherwise, give him some insulin and he'll be OK within a couple hours.

Epidural. His AS is mild so I think the problem with a spinal is the need for a 5+ hour surgical block, not the abrupt SVR drop. Maybe a spinal catheter if his CV numbers were worse, but they really don't look that bad. I don't even think you really need an a-line for him, but 4+ hours of q3min cuff cycling kind of sucks, so I'd place one. 3 mg of epidural morphine when we're done.

I'm concerned about postop pain control and the risk that carries in this guy, from both a cardiac & respiratory perspective. He would really benefit from a pair of femoral nerve catheters for the first 2-3 days, but getting our orthopods to go along with it would be a hard sell. Here, odds are he'd go to a monitored bed and get a PCA.


I would not reflexively balk at an old cardiopulmonary cripple like this getting both knees done at once. These patients know their days are numbered, and if they've been appropriately counselled by us and the surgeon and have given their informed consent, and if they and their surgeon feel their quality of life will benefit from the procedure, and if there's nothing to reasonably optimize by delaying the case, I'm not going to say no.
 
PGG,

Good answer. The patient forgot to take his Insulin last night. He thought that since he wasn't go to eat later he didn't need it.

The patient has severe knee pain. He wanted his knees replaced in '07 but was told he was high risk. Now the pain is so bad he can barely walk to the bathroom. Despite his room air Sat of 89 he can get around with oxygen okay.

Orthopod wants your opinion on bilateral knees. Is it too risky? Should he insist patient just do one knee now and another in 4-6 months?
 
80 y/o for bl. knees needs to be reasonably healthy. What is his life expectancy and current functional capacity? These cases are infrequent.

Not here. I have participated in a 100 year old getting a total joint replacement. I have met 89 year olds getting their fourth total joint.

Most are not very healthy. A few are in decent shape but some are solid ASA3 with morbid obesity.
 
Haven't read the journal, but what I know in the past is based on Urban et al with their exclusion criteria

Exclusion Criteria
Age ≥ 75 yr
ASA class III
Active ischemic heart disease (positive stress test)
Poor ventricular function (LVEF < 40%)
Oxygen-dependent pulmonary disease

Patients considered at increased risk for morbidity and mortality&#8195;
IDDM&#8195;
Renal insufficiency
Pulmonary hypertension&#8195;
Steroid-dependent asthma&#8195;
Morbid obesity (BMI > 40)&#8195;
Chronic liver disease&#8195;
Cerebrovascular disease
 
Haven't read the journal, but what I know in the past is based on Urban et al with their exclusion criteria

Exclusion Criteria
Age &#8805; 75 yr
ASA class III
Active ischemic heart disease (positive stress test)
Poor ventricular function (LVEF < 40%)
Oxygen-dependent pulmonary disease

Patients considered at increased risk for morbidity and mortality&#8195;
IDDM&#8195;
Renal insufficiency
Pulmonary hypertension&#8195;
Steroid-dependent asthma&#8195;
Morbid obesity (BMI > 40)&#8195;
Chronic liver disease&#8195;
Cerebrovascular disease

That pretty much covers 75 percent of my patients having surgery
 
75 and older make up about 5% of our total joints. 55-75 y/o make up 95% our total joint population.

However, I would say 90% of our TFN's are over 70.
 
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That pretty much covers 75 percent of my patients having surgery

This is what the Orthopedic literature seems to point out.

Well like the end of the article says in AnA 'Given the controversy surrounding this issue...it may be time for the establishment of national guidelines to aid physicians and patients with the decision of whether to proceed with BTKA.'

This article notes male gender associated with increased odds of major morbidity and mortality, but people are not going to avoid BTKA because its a dude.

In the end it will come down to clinical judgement of the risk vs benefit. Situations like this are fun, if everything was a clear cut guideline/protocol I wouldn't have been able to enjoy half these threads.
 
This is what the Orthopedic literature seems to point out.

Well like the end of the article says in AnA 'Given the controversy surrounding this issue...it may be time for the establishment of national guidelines to aid physicians and patients with the decision of whether to proceed with BTKA.'

This article notes male gender associated with increased odds of major morbidity and mortality, but people are not going to avoid BTKA because its a dude.

In the end it will come down to clinical judgement of the risk vs benefit. Situations like this are fun, if everything was a clear cut guideline/protocol I wouldn't have been able to enjoy half these threads.


The authors also added that they aren't recommending BTKR for ASA3 and 4 patients. Would you advise the Orthopod to do one knee on this patient or proceed with both knees?
 
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DISCUSSION

We were able to characterize the incidence of major complications and mortality in patients undergoing BTKA and identify risk factors. Independent risk factors included advanced age, male gender, and a number of comorbidities, with congestive heart failure and pulmonary hypertension carrying the highest odds for major adverse outcome. Our data can be used to help guide the selection of individuals who are considered candidates for this procedure.

Understanding the pathophysiology leading to increased morbidity and mortality in patients undergoing joint arthroplasty and especially bilateral procedures is important when interpreting our findings. Previous research suggests that complications after joint arthroplasty can be related to overall intraoperative embolic debris and cement load that gains access to the vascular system during surgery, on one hand, and the end-organ reserve, on the other.7,8,15,21 Embolic material entering the lungs causes lung injury and increases pulmonary vascular resistance,7,8 which in turn may lead to right ventricular and atrial strain promoting arrhythmias, hypotension, and venostasis.22 These events may be responsible for the increased rates of acute respiratory distress syndrome and thromboembolic events occurring in patients undergoing bilateral versus unilateral TKA.2 Similarly, increased exposure of the central nervous system and other organs, such as the kidney, to embolic material may explain the higher rates of delirium and renal complications in BTKA versus UTKA patients.2,3

In this study, we identified advanced age to be a risk factor for increased morbidity and mortality. This finding is consistent with previous research3,21 and could be explained by the known phenomenon of age-related physiologic decline in end-organ reserve.23 Thus, it is possible that although embolic load associated with surgery remains unchanged in the elderly, the capacity of organs to withstand the insult is decreased, resulting in worse outcome.

Male gender was found to be associated with increased odds of major morbidity and mortality. Although previously described in the arthroplasty population,21 the reasons for this finding have to remain speculative at this point, but potential reasons may include hormonal differences that may offer some degree of protection for female patients.24

A number of comorbidities independently increased the risk for major morbidity and mortality; congestive heart failure and pulmonary hypertension were associated with the highest odds. Preexisting decreased vascular reserve of the lungs is a likely factor associated with this finding. Indeed, the load-dependent response and capacity of the lungs to absorb the embolic insult was shown in healthy patients undergoing bilateral hip arthroplasty.8 Whereas no significant changes in pulmonary vascular resistance were seen after the first joint implantation, an increase in pulmonary vascular parameters was measured after the second implantation, suggesting that the ability of the pulmonary vascular bed to compensate may be overwhelmed by the larger embolic load of 2 joints. Interestingly, these derangements continued to be present on postoperative day 1, suggesting that the stresses are prolonged and not short-lived, as often assumed. Whereas these pulmonary hemodynamic changes may be of limited clinical consequence in otherwise healthy individuals,8 significantly increased rates of morbidity and mortality among patients with pulmonary hypertension undergoing even unilateral hip and knee replacement have been found.15 It is therefore not surprising that pulmonary hypertension was 1 of the 2 most significant risk factors for morbidity and mortality in this study.

Given these findings, it seems prudent to screen patients who are suspected of having increased pulmonary pressure or right heart dysfunction, including patients with sleep apnea25 and those with a history of pulmonary embolism,26 and consider them at high risk. Attempting the estimation of pulmonary pressures by echocardiography in patients at risk for pulmonary hypertension during preoperative testing may therefore be of benefit. Although no data are available to judge what level of pulmonary hypertension should be considered significant in this setting, taking a conservative approach in judgment when assessing suitability for BTKA may be advisable until more research is available. If preoperative pharmacologic treatment of abnormal parameters is of benefit has to remain speculative at this point and would warrant detailed investigations.

Equally important risk factors identified included a number of comorbidities suggesting decreased end-organ reserve, i.e., renal disease, neurologic disease, congestive heart failure, and chronic pulmonary disease. It is important to note that these comorbidities are not uniquely associated with adverse outcomes among BTKA patients,21 because many surgical procedures are defined by significant metabolic injury, fluid shifts, and other insults exposing various organ systems to a number of stresses. However, when considering the likely pathophysiology (i.e., intraoperative debris embolization) of morbidity and mortality in the BTKA population, physicians should be cautioned against worsening of organ function in this particular setting. Although many clinicians are well aware of the impact of cardiac and pulmonary disease on the outcome in surgical patients, our results serve to alert about the negative impact of diseases with low prevalence on perioperative morbidity and mortality. This, in turn, underlines the advantages of large database research, which allows for the study of low-incidence scenarios.

Our study is limited by a number of factors inherent to secondary data analysis of large administrative databases. As such, clinical information (i.e., type of anesthesia, amount of blood loss, length of surgery, etc.) available in the NIS is limited, and our analysis must be interpreted in this context. Because of the nature of the NIS, only inpatient data are available and thus complications and events after discharge are not captured. Furthermore, the need for readmission cannot be accounted for in this database. Thus, conclusions should be limited to the acute perioperative setting with the notion that mortality and complications are likely underestimated.

In this context, we are also unable to compare the outcomes of patients who have 2 TKAs performed during different hospitalizations. Whereas we have previously shown that staging procedures a few days apart during the same hospitalization offers no benefit in the risk for mortality and even may increase the risk for perioperative complications,3 Ritter et al.27 suggest that 30-day mortality rates of the BTKA performed 3 to 12 months apart is between 0.29% and 0.36%, compared with significantly increased rates for simultaneously performed BTKA (0.99%) and those scheduled 6 weeks apart (0.48%).

It must also be mentioned that the identification of comorbidities in this study was based on the validated method of Elixhauser et al., which is based on the bundling of ICD-9 codes to define various comorbidities in administrative databases.14 However, it is often not possible to determine from ICD-9 codes whether a comorbidity is preexisting or acquired during the hospitalization. It should be kept in mind, however, that this does not diminish the value of the comorbidities identified as risk factors as studied in this analysis, because they should alert clinicians of increased risk if they are encountered before surgery.

Furthermore, our modeling approaches are also somewhat limited by software availability and a gap in research in the arena of application of stepwise procedure in logistic regression analyses of survey data that take the survey design (stratification and clustering) and strata weights into account. We followed the latest recommendations published by Hosmer and Lemeshow20 on how to deal with this situation, but it is clear that further simulation-based research is needed for delineating the scenarios in which there might be deviation in the models fitted through “design-based” and “model-based” approaches. Software development incorporating procedures for fitting logistic regression in a stepwise manner for complex survey data is also necessary for easy implementation.

An additional limiting factor is the bias associated with the retrospective nature of our study. Nevertheless, because of the availability of data from a large, nationally representative sample, this type of analysis may provide a more accurate estimate of events surrounding BTKA than various prospective studies that are limited in sample size and thus lack the ability to capture low-incidence outcomes.

In conclusion, we were able to identify a number of risk factors for major morbidity and mortality in patients undergoing BTKA. These data can be used to aid in the selection of patients for this procedure, which otherwise may be associated with increased morbidity and mortality compared with a unilateral approach.

Although it is beyond the scope of this article to provide final and specific guidelines, we would urge institutions to engage in discussions to establish criteria to restrict BTKA procedures to patients with decreased reserve of the cardiopulmonary, vascular, renal, and central nervous system and contemplate exclusion of patients of advanced age and those with evidence of significant end-organ disease. Until detailed evaluation guidelines can be agreed on, it seems prudent to exclude the elderly and patients with ASA physical status &#8805;3. Patients at risk for occult derangements of pulmonary hemodynamics and right heart dysfunction (i.e., the obese and those with sleep apnea, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, and previous pulmonary embolism) should undergo cardiopulmonary evaluation with echocardiography to rule out significant preexisting increases in pulmonary artery pressures, which may predispose patients to increased morbidity and mortality.

Given the controversy surrounding this issue and the fact that a number of studies have been published in recent years on this subject, it may be time for the establishment of national guidelines to aid physicians and patients with the decision of whether to proceed with BTKA.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21752942
 
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The authors also added that they aren't recommending BTKR for ASA3 and 4 patients. Would you advise the Orthopod to do one knee on this patient or proceed with both knees?

If he is asking for my advice, I'd explain that I would not do BTKA in this patient based on the fact he has multiple risk factors(Age &#8805; 75 yr
ASA class III, Poor ventricular function (LVEF < 40%), Oxygen-dependent pulmonary disease, IDDM, Renal insufficiency) that put him at increased mortality and morbidity when doing BTKA versus TKA * 2. Therefore, I would state the TKA * 2 would be the better path to follow.
 
👍

This is the kind of topic I like to discuss during the "medically challenging cases" sessions at the ASA. Preop, intraop and post op. Practical/clinical.

Thanks for posting.
 
If he is asking for my advice, I'd explain that I would not do BTKA in this patient based on the fact he has multiple risk factors(Age &#8805; 75 yr
ASA class III, Poor ventricular function (LVEF < 40%), Oxygen-dependent pulmonary disease, IDDM, Renal insufficiency) that put him at increased mortality and morbidity when doing BTKA versus TKA * 2. Therefore, I would state the TKA * 2 would be the better path to follow.


As a Consultant in Anesthesiology would you counsel the patient to re-consider having both knees done at the same time? If you decide to do the anesthetic what would you write down on the record?

If the patient dies from complications following Bilateral Total Knee replacement how would you defend your decision to proceed with BTKR?

Finally, what is your anesthetic plan for this case if both Surgeon and Patient agree/understand to proceed with this high risk surgery?
 
As a Consultant in Anesthesiology would you counsel the patient to re-consider having both knees done at the same time? If you decide to do the anesthetic what would you write down on the record?

If the patient dies from complications following Bilateral Total Knee replacement how would you defend your decision to proceed with BTKR?

Finally, what is your anesthetic plan for this case if both Surgeon and Patient agree/understand to proceed with this high risk surgery?

I would counsel the patient that while I understand it is not easy to come in for two surgeries as opposed to one, and the duration of finishing rehab, etc will be longer by doing TKA * 2, it is in his best interest to do it this way. Like PMPMD stated above he has a lot of the deck stacked against him. I would point out that this area has been studied and he has not just one, but multiple risk factors that increase his chance of passing away/having complications. In the end, I would explain that I have his best interest in mind, that if I felt it was safe to do this in one shot I would, but I don't. You trust your mechanic(+/-) with your car, trust me with this.

If you decided to do it anyway, I would write down the entire discussion. If I got sued, it would all be useless. I was against this, but the patient and surgeon understood so I put my judgement aside? What do you do when you are arguing one position strongly, but switch due to other parties? It's like wanting an arterial line in the case, being unable to get it, now you do the case without one. Did you really not need it to begin with? Or is the fact you can't get what you want just making you change your plan? Random questions.
 
Though spot. If this guys knees are as bad as you say he is going to have a very difficult time rehabbing if you just do one knee if his other knee can barely get him to the can. However, his poor cardiopulmonary status will make rehab for BTKA very difficult as well.

Also, WTF is taking your surgeons 5 hours to do 2 knees. I'm at an academic place and our fastest guy (who is also very good) has tourniquet times for his knees of <50 minutes per side (shortest one I can remember doing was 38 minutes). And this is with residents doing part of the procedure. Our best quality guy is a little slower but still has tourniquet times of around an hour or less.

Long talk with surgeon, pt. and family. Pre-op femoral blocks. Spinal. A-line. Very light sedation.

Almost forgot, this should happen in a day or 2 after his glucose has been controlled better. No surgery for him today.
 
Though spot. If this guys knees are as bad as you say he is going to have a very difficult time rehabbing if you just do one knee if his other knee can barely get him to the can. However, his poor cardiopulmonary status will make rehab for BTKA very difficult as well.

Also, WTF is taking your surgeons 5 hours to do 2 knees. I'm at an academic place and our fastest guy (who is also very good) has tourniquet times for his knees of <50 minutes per side (shortest one I can remember doing was 38 minutes). And this is with residents doing part of the procedure. Our best quality guy is a little slower but still has tourniquet times of around an hour or less.

Long talk with surgeon, pt. and family. Pre-op femoral blocks. Spinal. A-line. Very light sedation.

Almost forgot, this should happen in a day or 2 after his glucose has been controlled better. No surgery for him today.

1. Slow Surgeons exist even in Private Practice😱
2. Case was not cancelled due to Glucose reading. I did get a reasonable HGB A1C (one week old) from Primary.
3. Patient and Surgeon agreed to increased risk. I documented conversation including advice/recommendation for just ONE total Knee at a time separated by 3-4 months.
4. Case was performed under Isobaric Bupivacaine. 20 mg. Block lasted 5-6 hours.
5. Arterial line was placed for the case.
 
1. Slow Surgeons exist even in Private Practice😱
2. Case was not cancelled due to Glucose reading. I did get a reasonable HGB A1C (one week old) from Primary.
3. Patient and Surgeon agreed to increased risk. I documented conversation including advice/recommendation for just ONE total Knee at a time separated by 3-4 months.
4. Case was performed under Isobaric Bupivacaine. 20 mg. Block lasted 5-6 hours.
5. Arterial line was placed for the case.

Would've left a cath: CSE or strait epidural
 



The cardiopulmonary complication, morbidity, and mortality rates of simultaneous bilateral procedures appear to be higher in elderly patients, and it may be considered unsafe in this group of patients. It may be a safer option in younger patients without preoperative comorbid factors.



The Article referenced in Anesthesia and Analgesia was from October 2011. It is more "evidence" for the malpractice lawyers when a serious complication or death occurs in the "unsafe" group of patients.
 
Bilateral Total Knee Arthroplasty: Risk Factors for Major Morbidity and Mortality


  1. Stavros G. Memtsoudis, MD, PhD*,
  2. Yan Ma, PhD†,
  3. Ya-Lin Chiu, MS†,
  4. Lazaros Poultsides, MD, PhD‡,
  5. Alejandro Gonzalez Della Valle, MD‡ and
  6. Madhu Mazumdar, PhD†
+ Author Affiliations

  1. From the *Department of Anesthesiology; †Division of Biostatistics and Epidemiology, Public Health; and ‡Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, Hospital for Special Surgery, Weill Cornell Medical College, New York, New York.

  1. Address correspondence to Stavros G. Memtsoudis, MD, PhD, Department of Anesthesiology, Hospital for Special Surgery, 535 East 70th St., New York, NY 10021. Address e-mail to [email protected].

Abstract

BACKGROUND: Bilateral total knee arthroplasty (BTKA) performed during the same hospitalization carries increased risk for morbidity and mortality compared with the unilateral approach. However, no evidence-based stratifications to identify patients at risk for major morbidity and mortality are available. Our objective was to determine the incidence and patient-related risk factors for major morbidity and mortality among patients undergoing BTKA.

METHODS: Nationwide Inpatient Survey data collected for the years 1998 to 2007 were analyzed and cases of elective BTKA procedures were included. Patient demographics, including comorbidities, were analyzed and frequencies of mortality and major complications were computed. Subsequently, a multivariate analysis was conducted to determine independent risk factors for major morbidity and mortality.

RESULTS: Included were 42,003 database entries, representing an estimated 206,573 elective BTKAs. The incidence of major in-hospital complications and mortality was 9.5%. Risk factors for adverse outcome included advanced age (odds ratios [ORs] for age groups 65–74 and >75 years were 1.88 [confidence interval, CI: 1.72, 2.05] and 2.66 [CI: 2.42, 2.92], respectively, compared with the 45–65 years group), male gender (OR: 1.54 [CI: 1.44, 1.66]), and a number of comorbidities. The presence of congestive heart failure (OR: 5.55 [CI: 4.81, 6.39]) and pulmonary hypertension (OR: 4.10 [CI: 2.72, 6.10]) were the most significant risk factors associated with increased odds for adverse outcome.

CONCLUSIONS: We identified patient-related risk factors for major morbidity and mortality in patients undergoing BTKA. Our data can be used to aid in the selection of patients for this procedure.
 
Never pushed 20 mg of marcaine as a single shot. Are you talking about a catheter?
 
Never pushed 20 mg of marcaine as a single shot. Are you talking about a catheter?


Nope. I'm talking about 4mls of Isobaric 0.5% Bupivacaine. Lasts 5 hours.
Safe and effective



In a recent survey of 3315 patients,10 the most important risk factors for hypotension detected in a multiple logistic regression model were chronic alcohol consumption, history of hypertension, increased body mass index, block level >T6, and urgent surgery. There was no relevant difference between the mean doses of bupivacaine injected in the patients with and without hypotension (17.5 vs 17 mg; P=0.01). As we aim at reaching the requested sensory level for surgery with the initial intrathecal dose of bupivacaine, we occasionally administer 20 mg of plain bupivacaine even in planned combined spinal&#8211;epidural anaesthesia, but it is the maximal dose injected intrathecally in our department. The unpredictable level of spinal anaesthesia achieved in an individual patient suggests that severe vagal side&#8208;effects could occur even at moderate or lower doses of spinal anaesthetics. M. Luginbühl
Bern, Switzerland
 
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another concern is continued postop bleeding into the thigh

this usually happens overnight on pod 0 and manifests as orthostatic hypotension and anemia on the morning of pod 1, and often impedes being able to get up with PT

some surgeons leave drains in and this can help as a monitor; some surgeons allow for some of the scavenged blood to be reinfused in the PACU, which can help

then there is the return of fluids from the third space on day 2-ish to worry about

PCA to control pain, or femoral nerve catheters with US guidance to optimally place and run at 4cc/hr with 0.1 % ropivicaine turned off 1 prior to PT

if epidural pull it when anticoagulation demands, and throw in the 3mg of astramorph at that time, not immediately postop (you've got local running and wont need it as much)

tell the surgeon to strongly consider postop celebrex for a few days
 
After the glucose has been fixed and adressed. How about bilateral femoral catheters. Then single shot sciatics bilaterally. Then 3 cc of isobaric bupivicaine. A-line obviously with 2 large bore IVs and blood depending on the competency of the surgeon. As long as the plavix has been off for 10 days I think I would go about it this way so they can anticoagulate without worrying about an epidural catheter. Hopefully case won't make m and m rolls later in the month.
 
An 83-year-old 65-kg woman with noninsulin-dependent diabetes mellitus, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, hypertension, and osteoarthritis underwent bilateral total knee arthroplasties at UPMC Shadyside Hospital in Pittsburgh. Preoperatively, bilateral perineural femoral nerve catheters were placed and 15 mL ropivacaine 0.35% was injected at each site. In addition, bilateral single infragluteal sciatic blocks (5) were also performed with 10 mL ropivacaine 0.35% at each site. The operation was conducted uneventfully under light general anesthesia. In the recovery room, infusions of both perineural femoral catheters were begun using ropivacaine 0.2% at a rate of 5 mL/h each. On the evening of surgery the patient was alert and comfortable as she was likewise the afternoon of the following day. Later that evening, however, she became confused, hypotensive, and her oxygen saturation decreased to less than 90% despite administration of oxygen via nasal cannula. An EKG was little changed from the preoperative cardiogram, revealing neither ischemia nor arrhythmia. The patient was promptly taken for a ventilation-perfusion scan that demonstrated a high probability of pulmonary embolus. She was transferred to the intensive care unit, and a heparin infusion was begun. The continuous femoral infusions of 0.2% ropivacaine were continued, and she remained comfortable and in need of minimal supplemental analgesics. She recovered fully over the next several days.
 
With regard to peripheral nerve blocks, it is important to recognize that lumbar plexus blocks, while also indicated for total knee arthroplasty, have been reported to produce hypotension with associated confusion and hypoxia (6). This difference in the safety profile of femoral nerve block versus lumbar plexus block is one advantage of using the former technique for postoperative pain management following total knee replacement.
 
I don't know the exact anticoagulation course that our joint guys use, but I am pretty sure that the pt.'s start coumadin either the night before they come in for surgery or on the evening of POD #0. This would make an epidural or lumbar plexus catheter a less desirable option in my opinion.
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I was wondering if you guys that have orthopods that start Coumadin the night PRIOR to surgery have had any issues. The protocol at my new gig involves giving 10 mg Coumadin the night before (5 mg if under 80 kg) and then performing the case with a femoral nerve block and a spinal without checking an INR in the morning . I do not have a problem with the femoral block since it is compressible. Theoretically, the Protein C and S issue should make the first 24 hours safe to do a neuraxial but I don't have any literature to back me up. Is this reasonable standard of care? Defensible?
 
What's your plan for this case? Any problem doing Bilateral Total Knees on this patient? Surgery will take 4-5 hours for both knees.
I guess I'd smile at the surgeon and say, "wow, you really got a pair to do bilateral on this guy; what do you want me to do for you, man?" Guaranteed the surgeon will stop and think about what the heck (s)he's doing. Let the surgeon change his/her mind. It's all in the presentation.
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I was wondering if you guys that have orthopods that start Coumadin the night PRIOR to surgery have had any issues. The protocol at my new gig involves giving 10 mg Coumadin the night before (5 mg if under 80 kg) and then performing the case with a femoral nerve block and a spinal without checking an INR in the morning . I do not have a problem with the femoral block since it is compressible. Theoretically, the Protein C and S issue should make the first 24 hours safe to do a neuraxial but I don't have any literature to back me up. Is this reasonable standard of care? Defensible?

Guess it depends on whether the patient has been taking other meds which knock out platelets. It's the double hit that raises the patient's risk for spinal hematoma, eh?
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I was wondering if you guys that have orthopods that start Coumadin the night PRIOR to surgery have had any issues. The protocol at my new gig involves giving 10 mg Coumadin the night before (5 mg if under 80 kg) and then performing the case with a femoral nerve block and a spinal without checking an INR in the morning . I do not have a problem with the femoral block since it is compressible. Theoretically, the Protein C and S issue should make the first 24 hours safe to do a neuraxial but I don't have any literature to back me up. Is this reasonable standard of care? Defensible?

Asra last guidelines addressed this one dose Coumadin night before w/o any additional meds, and no RF for bleeding its ok
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I was wondering if you guys that have orthopods that start Coumadin the night PRIOR to surgery have had any issues. The protocol at my new gig involves giving 10 mg Coumadin the night before (5 mg if under 80 kg) and then performing the case with a femoral nerve block and a spinal without checking an INR in the morning . I do not have a problem with the femoral block since it is compressible. Theoretically, the Protein C and S issue should make the first 24 hours safe to do a neuraxial but I don't have any literature to back me up. Is this reasonable standard of care? Defensible?

Our patients all get 5 mg the night before. I have no problem with a spinal in that situation unless they have other risks for bleeding.
 
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