Marietta, OH - EM ***Beware***

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Northridger

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This program has successfully destroyed the careers of EM residents - one 2 months before graduation for what sounds like minor offenses (certainly nothing warranting professional murder of this caliber). BEWARE OF THIS PROGRAM BEFORE GOING THERE.......research up one side and down the other before you sign on their dotted line. I know of two doctors there who have had their life destroyed. Abuse in EM residency is not uncommon - DON'T FOOL YOURSELF - IT DOES EXIST.

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You are very vague. Tell us more about PGY and what you can regarding the circumstances of them being let go? This seems like an odd post with interview season starting....
 
This program has successfully destroyed the careers of EM residents - one 2 months before graduation for what sounds like minor offenses (certainly nothing warranting professional murder of this caliber). BEWARE OF THIS PROGRAM BEFORE GOING THERE.......research up one side and down the other before you sign on their dotted line. I know of two doctors there who have had their life destroyed. Abuse in EM residency is not uncommon - DON'T FOOL YOURSELF - IT DOES EXIST.

So you have a personal vendetta with the program and/or were dismissed/disciplined and you post about it in vague terms here?

keep-sharp-and-stay-classy.jpg
 
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Not sure about the poster or the comments above but I do seem to recall that this was the only program in the country last year (allopathic or osteopathic) that had spots left over after the match. Well, there was Hackensack but that apparently was because they were new and didn't interview enough people but the Marrietta program is an osteopathic program that I *think* had two open slots last year. The fact that there were any open slots kinda perked my eyebrow and may lend to what the OP is talking about or it may not, just putting the info out there. I don't know a thing about the program and it may be stellar or terrible.
 
So you have a personal vendetta with the program and/or were dismissed/disciplined and you post about it in vague terms here?

keep-sharp-and-stay-classy.jpg

I wonder if one of the Yale residents from last year's über-disgruntled thread transfered here? d;-)

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never heard of it... the program OR the city. how ignominious could it be?

that being said... i've never heard of about 75% of DO programs esp in ohio...
 
So I am currently a resident of the said program and I love it here. Yes, 2 individuals have not completed the program for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the staff, the hospital, or anyone outside the individuals themselves. We definitely are going through the early bumps that all new programs do, as we are only in our third year. Our PD is fantastic, she saved this program. Our staff is fantastic. WE have a good mix of new docs with new ideas and Us training etc, as well as docs that have been around a while lol. No other way of saying that i suppose. We did scramble 2 spots last year. As a new program with high expectations we may have did that to ourselves in terms of ranking specific people how we did.. I dont know, they don;t tell us that sort of thing. This is not a malignant or abusive program. I urge you to read the above commentors 2 posts. 2 whole posts. And put the pieces together. Why would a program target and let go of a resident if it didn't absolutely have to. Let alone a new program who hasn't graduated a class yet. Think about how far things have to had gone, as we can only speculate. If you want to be in a small city with the opportunity to see high accuity and just straight-up odd cases that test you daily, keep us in mind. 🙂
 
I urge you to read the above commentors 2 posts. 2 whole posts.

To be fair, you have an entire 1 post (less than he does as well), so we have no reason to trust you any more than we have to trust the OP (which I don't trust, to be honest, but that's neither here nor there).
 
Beware of following the advice of outliers or the disgruntled.

As an interviewer of applicants, if I ask if you have any questions, and you proceed with 7 questions about disciplinary procedures and remediation, I'll think you're anticipating problems...

Try questions like, "Is this a fun place to work?"
 
This program has successfully destroyed the careers of EM residents - one 2 months before graduation for what sounds like minor offenses (certainly nothing warranting professional murder of this caliber). BEWARE OF THIS PROGRAM BEFORE GOING THERE.......research up one side and down the other before you sign on their dotted line. I know of two doctors there who have had their life destroyed. Abuse in EM residency is not uncommon - DON'T FOOL YOURSELF - IT DOES EXIST.

After all these years, I'm still amazed when I see posts like this. Even if a program has issues, if they were that severe they would be addressed internally with their own GME office. Not all programs match all personalities. Be open and ask good questions. This might not be the program for you, but there is certainly no reason to bash them in a forum.

Remember, you are graded on professionalism during residency.

🙄
 
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Try questions like, "Is this a fun place to work?"

Assuming a program is malignant and the residents aren't happy, why would an interviewer answer this question honestly anyways?
 
I would be worried about a program that gave someone the boot with 2 months to go.
Don't know the story, but it would raise an eyebrow.
I'd ask one of the seniors about it if I had the chance.

I was a little concerned about a similar story at another program.
When I found out the details, the concern went away.
Sometimes residents just do dumb things that don't give the program a choice.
They really don't want to boot anyone.
That makes things even worse for the program and the residents on a number of levels.
 
I would be worried about a program that gave someone the boot with 2 months to go.
Don't know the story, but it would raise an eyebrow.
I'd ask one of the seniors about it if I had the chance.

I was a little concerned about a similar story at another program.
When I found out the details, the concern went away.
Sometimes residents just do dumb things that don't give the program a choice.
They really don't want to boot anyone.
That makes things even worse for the program and the residents on a number of levels.

I worked in a program (not EM), and we put a resident on probation 3 months prior to graduation for professionalism issues. He almost didn't graduate because of poor choices on his part.

:clap:
 
Having been a part of the experience resulted in ending ties with a resident, it is a very regimented process. There are standards such as HIPAA, etc to which some violations may be considered heinous enough to fire an employee immediately; however, most things involve layers of probation and heaps of evidence. Especially for vague things like unprofessional conduct or academic inadequacy. These will require significant documentation of attempts to remediate and recover the learner. As others have alluded to, the residency loses two residents, the other residents have more shifts to cover, rotations to cover, fewer seniors, etc. There is a potential for legal action against a residency or employer with an arbitrary firing and so no institution will do that without great thought. As for being safe at the end of residency...thats when things come to a head. A program has to decide to either graduate a person, extend their training, or let them go. If you graduate someone who is not adequate in some way (practice, professionalism, etc), you are hurting society and all of the person's future contacts as well as the reputation of your program. You will want to make sure you graduate from a program whose graduates are worthy of graduation and independent practice, Marietta obviously takes that responsibility seriously and its graduates have passed through this standard.
 
It isn't an odd post - it's what happened. Your 46 months into a 48 month program - and for as yet that I can determine - it's all a bunch of non essential garbage. Nothing that I can ascertain about this case of dismissal warrants it. Maybe other have info....I don't know. If the circumstances warrant dismissal - then that's what it is.
 
No, I just want you to know what your dealing with. I just informed you that a man's life was destroyed 46 months into a 48 month program - had never been on probation or committed and offense worthy of dismissal - mostly personality conflict in my opinion.

KNOW THE NATURE OF THE BEAST WITH WHOM YOU SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE - IT MEANS EVERYTHING FOR YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS.
 
It isn't an odd post - it's what happened. Your 46 months into a 48 month program - and for as yet that I can determine - it's all a bunch of non essential garbage. Nothing that I can ascertain about this case of dismissal warrants it. Maybe other have info....I don't know. If the circumstances warrant dismissal - then that's what it is.

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It isn't an odd post - it's what happened. Your 46 months into a 48 month program - and for as yet that I can determine - it's all a bunch of non essential garbage. Nothing that I can ascertain about this case of dismissal warrants it. Maybe other have info....I don't know. If the circumstances warrant dismissal - then that's what it is.

I don't know about this particular program but this kind of stuff does happen. I've seen it in EM a few times but mostly in surgery, usually around the pgy 3 yr. and thymeless is right, there are multiple multiple steps before dropping a resident. not only the paperwork but the financial implications on the program too. plenty of thought goes into the decision before pulling the plug on a resident. and not to forget the legal considerations that had to be discussed. I can assure you hospitals, programs, the RRC, ACGME (AOA too?) have so much legal mumbo jumbo in place there's usually a paper trail somewhere and the decision to leave isn't always the programs. sometimes the resident wants to leave or complete residency somewhere else. i hate to seeing someone getting their career smashed but there's usually a deeper part to the story....
 
No, I just want you to know what your dealing with. I just informed you that a man's life was destroyed 46 months into a 48 month program - had never been on probation or committed and offense worthy of dismissal - mostly personality conflict in my opinion.

KNOW THE NATURE OF THE BEAST WITH WHOM YOU SIGN ON THE DOTTED LINE - IT MEANS EVERYTHING FOR YOUR NEXT FOUR YEARS.

since you're not behind the scenes, I doubt you have the full story.
 
Actually discussed with a friend who is faculty at Marietta. He reported academic fraud was the cause.
 
Actually discussed with a friend who is faculty at Marietta. He reported academic fraud was the cause.

But they DESTROYED HIS CAREER MALIGNANT PROGRAM MOUTH FOAMING ARRGH.
 
Hmmm so I'm wondering if he did something like faking the data/results of his research project? That would be the only thing left that close to the end of residency right?
 
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No, I just know what resident abuse and harassment is all about..........
 
Thank you - finally someone who see the world from the resident side. Your 300,000 dollars in debt - you've devoted 46 months of your life to something (about 6 to 7%) of your entire human existence and your out on the street without so much as severance pay.......good luck getting into another program.
 
I know enough to get you to read about it.

We all get it---you were dismissed----you are bitter and you are venting here.

It is impossible for any of us to empathize with you when:

1) We have no details
2) All details will be provided from your perspective without any of the findings from your program
3) Your cryptic postings are bizarre and poorly worded and do not help us form a positive opinion of you
 
I wasn't dismissed. I graduated. But I know the attitude that your defending - you must be one of them.
 
I wasn't dismissed. I graduated. But I know the attitude that your defending - you must be one of them.

All you've managed to say is that someone was dismissed. You have not provided any details behind the situation, and I doubt that you even know them. When I was a chief we had a few residents make bad decisions that led to severe consequences. We didn't kick anyone out, but we certainly weren't going to let other residents know what happened. We didn't even tell the faculty. For all you know, this dismissed resident could have been selling narcotic scripts, stealing from the hospital, writing fraudulent records, raped a patient, pissed off the hospital administration from sheer rudeness, failed to show up for shifts, lied on his resume, and the list goes on.
 
"We didn't even tell the faculty. For all you know, this dismissed resident could have been selling narcotic scripts, stealing from the hospital, writing fraudulent records, raped a patient, pissed off the hospital administration from sheer rudeness, failed to show up for shifts, lied on his resume, and the list goes on. "


...................err, uhh...yeah...well... maybe that could the case in some other generic world. But, I think I know a bit more than you. Maybe the program wants to come on here and make an official statement?
 
...................err, uhh...yeah...well... maybe that could the case in some other generic world. But, I think I know a bit more than you. Maybe the program wants to come on here and make an official statement?

True, maybe you do. But as has been frequently stated in these threads, you're not giving us any of that information. All we have to go on is what you've said and how you've said it, and what that tells us it's that you're bitter and angry and vague. It's not in anyone's best interest to give a resident the boot for no good reason, and that includes the program. Until you share this supposed insider info, Occam's Razor suggests that there was a serious offense that the resident in question committed, with or without your knowledge.

But yes, the program would love to come to an online forum to respond to anonymous accusations with no supporting information made by a clearly disgruntled former resident. BTW, I'm guessing if they ever actually see this thread, they'll have a pretty good idea who you are.
 
Not that I'm in EM, but I saw this thread on the "New Posts" section and wanted to comment because the type of thinking I see on this thread drives me nuts.

With regards to the OP, most people immediately distrusted him/her and had suspicions about their motivation. Stop and ask yourselves why. As medical students and residents, we are basically all people who "follow the rules" and therefore we side with the institutions (medical schools and residency programs) over those who we perceive as "disgrunted individuals." But it's not for any good reason. In my life, I've experienced a number of times when, for whatever reason, a conversation between residents drifts to talk about a resident who has been kicked out of a program. And universally, the residents will all agree that it was the resident's fault and side with the program. Which is really rather silly because it presupposes that the program is moral and "good," even when you know it's not.

For example, as a surgery resident, with work hours restrictions, there are programs who violate them, either currently or in the past. And it's always "unofficial" because a resident can't report it. I mean, you could, but 99% of the time you'd just be shooting yourself in the foot because it takes an incredibly strong person to fight a residency program, even if they are in the right. So what happens? Most people just say "we'll accept the rule-breaking of the program and just rationalize it by saying that people who complain are whiners or are not team players." So even though the program has committed the violation, the residents perceive people who disagree as "the problem." That's generally how things work in residency and medical school.

As another example, training programs take lots of preliminary residents solely for labor. In other words, they don't really care about their qualifications and know for a fact that they're not going to be able to continue training. As proof, I submit that my residency program routinely accepted for preliminary years residents who could barely speak English. No rational person would do that, as even attendings and co-residents had problems communicating basic ideas to them. They were there merely to fill call schedules. Now, that's bad for everyone. Bad for the resident, who is wasting their time chasing an imaginary carrot while being beaten down daily for something that really isn't their fault -- I couldn't complete a year of residency in a place where I didn't know the language. Bad for the other residents, who have to cover for that resident. Bad for the patients, who are receiving sub-optimal care when they have to interact with that resident. Now, if programs were as ethical and "good" as everyone subconsciously believes them to be, that would never occur. There are other ways to bridge that gap, including hiring PAs and NPs to take some burden off residents. But that, of course, involves money and so the cheapest way to go is to continue things the way they are. That's hardly ethical.

My point is merely to say that an innate distrust of "disgruntled individuals" is not always fair. In fact, posting on boards such as this may be what they perceive to be their only recourse. What power does an individual have? If they complain to the public, chances are most people won't even understand what they are talking about. Forums such as this are their only way to communicate to their peers and to express their frustration and anger with a situation.

Keep in mind that even hospitals are guilty of these things. As an attending, I worked at a hospital with a group of surgeons who were horrible. They were fine technical surgeons, but that was about it. They didn't care to see their patients, they openly expressed that rounding was not a surgeon's job, and they would ignore problems that they considered "beneath them." And yet they've been around as a group for decades. You will never know the inner workings of a hospital or a medical school or a residency program until you're inside of it. Period. So I caution everyone here, not just for this thread, but also for the future, to keep that in mind.

My two cents.
 
Hey, if he could write a well-written response like yours without paranoid ramblings I'd agree with you. He does himself no favors by being completely obsequious about his (the op's) relationship to the entire situation, and about the entire situation in general.
 
Hey, if he could write a well-written response like yours without paranoid ramblings I'd agree with you. He does himself no favors by being completely obsequious about his (the op's) relationship to the entire situation, and about the entire situation in general.

That's also not fair because often-times writing very specific things on boards like this will only allow people to identify you in real life. I could elaborate, for example, on my residency program and its firing of residents, but depending on the details that I revealed, it would probably be relatively easy to figure out who I was. I refuse to do so. Therefore, all I can do right now is to tell people that when a resident gets fired, it is not always fair, nor has the program always been moral. What the program knows how to do, however, is to cover itself from legal recourse, which they can do far more readily than a resident, believe me.

Again, this is not to say that every resident who gets fired is "right" because I've seen residents get fired who deserved it. However, to say that a program is always in the right when it fires a resident is false. Programs are no more ethical, and often less so, than residents. Trust me on that.
 
Again, this is not to say that every resident who gets fired is "right" because I've seen residents get fired who deserved it. However, to say that a program is always in the right when it fires a resident is false. Programs are no more ethical, and often less so, than residents. Trust me on that.

Wholeheartedly agree. However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, coupled with the OP's borderline paranoid ramblings, to assume the program is at fault is a cognitive leap.

But, as is typically the case, I'm sure that in this instance there are 3 sides to this situation: the OP's story, the program's story, and the truth.

-d

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Again, this is not to say that every resident who gets fired is "right" because I've seen residents get fired who deserved it. However, to say that a program is always in the right when it fires a resident is false. Programs are no more ethical, and often less so, than residents. Trust me on that.

The two specific classes of program misbehavior are extremely rare to non-existent in EM. We don't have prelim spots and duty hour violations are rare (typically revolving around time off between shifts which for the slow charters among us is difficult to meet when working 12s). This gives us a very different perspective on resident termination than a surgery resident in a shady program.

We also get told stories on a daily basis by people who have very different life circumstances than we do. Some of these stories beggar belief (see the first 20 pages of the "Things I Learned from My Patient") and a subset of these tales are actually true. As mentioned in the above replies, one of the main methods we use to weigh veracity is the way in which the story was presented. The OP's tone seemed "off" for lack of a better descriptor. It's not a perfect measure by any means, but it's a filter that's tough to deactivate because it's proven broadly useful.
 
This is the most intelligence I've seen communicated and displayed since I've been posting on here.
If only the rest of residencies were filled with thinking like this - what a better world it would be. But based on most of the replies, I've seen on here - were pretty much still in the dark ages. Anyone who questions or resists the group think is going to get digital forum 'electric shock therapy'.


(response to ruralsurg4now)
 
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This is the most intelligence I've seen communicated and displayed since I've been posting on here.
If only the rest of residencies were filled with thinking like this - what a better world it would be. But based on most of the replies, I've seen on here - were pretty much still in the dark ages. Anyone who questions or resists the group think is going to get digital forum 'electric shock therapy'.


(response to ruralsurg4now)

Thanks, but that's the problem. In residency, it's basically way easier to just go along with everything rather than be "the nail that sticks up and gets the hammer." That allows residency programs to do some very underhanded things at times because they have effectively terrified everyone into agreement.
 
That's also not fair because often-times writing very specific things on boards like this will only allow people to identify you in real life. I could elaborate, for example, on my residency program and its firing of residents, but depending on the details that I revealed, it would probably be relatively easy to figure out who I was. I refuse to do so. Therefore, all I can do right now is to tell people that when a resident gets fired, it is not always fair, nor has the program always been moral. What the program knows how to do, however, is to cover itself from legal recourse, which they can do far more readily than a resident, believe me.

Again, this is not to say that every resident who gets fired is "right" because I've seen residents get fired who deserved it. However, to say that a program is always in the right when it fires a resident is false. Programs are no more ethical, and often less so, than residents. Trust me on that.

Honestly, I don't think anyone on here necessarily thinks that the program is in the right. And you are right that it would be risky to reveal more info. But he's splitting and a bit paranoid, so it just makes it extremely for us to accept his story at face value. If he wrote like you, I'm sure most people would be more suspicious of the program itself.
 
Thanks, but that's the problem. In residency, it's basically way easier to just go along with everything rather than be "the nail that sticks up and gets the hammer." That allows residency programs to do some very underhanded things at times because they have effectively terrified everyone into agreement.


The squeaky wheel gets the grease, but it can also be replaced.
 
This is the most intelligence I've seen communicated and displayed since I've been posting on here.
If only the rest of residencies were filled with thinking like this - what a better world it would be. But based on most of the replies, I've seen on here - were pretty much still in the dark ages. Anyone who questions or resists the group think is going to get digital forum 'electric shock therapy'.


(response to ruralsurg4now)

Do you have a problem with using the "quote" button?
 
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