Mass Killing Theater

Started by doctor712
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.


When I carry a Glock I carry in condition 3. Most people carry their Glock in Condition two so a proper holster is essential to ensure the trigger isn't touched by accident or the Glock will go off.
 
I own several AR weapons for personal defense. Would my rifles become illegal? Will you pay me back for my legally purchased rifles? If my rifles are legal then criminals will just acquire older preban rifles to committ crimes while law abiding citizens will be denied their AR rifle due to excessive cost.

I'm talking about a ban on the sale of assault rifles, not a ban on ownership.

Reducing the current supply could work through a buy back program and seizing weapons used by criminals.

Such a ban would make the weapons more expensive for criminals too, and that's the point.
 
Blade,

Took this for a spin tonight.

photo-1.jpg


I like it, not sure I LOVE it. I actually thought it would be much smaller from your pictures. Not a great sight, dad was telling me it's really a weapon for 3-5 ft away, quick self defense pull and shoot. I would probably prefer a Glock for the jogging situation, I have to look into the smallest Glock available, if that's the 26, might be a bit too big and I'll have to goto the Ruger. Dad was saying how much he loves his Glocks because they just aren't jamming, has all the faith in them. Going to research a bit now.

Note: a semi-automatic, .380, 10 shot (i think) HANDGUN for self-defense. Thank you Jame Madison, this is all I need. Not a frigging AK-47, or an RPG. :laugh::laugh::laugh: Empty weapon (thus finger near trigger, I didn't notice ANY safety on this weapon).

Problem: so, for example, to get this gun as a gift, or buy it from dad, there is no paperwork required, there is no record keeping by my state or federal govt, and no record between two private parties is required by law during this "sale." I think. So, when there is more paperwork and record keeping in order to REGISTER a 1955 Chevy, then keep track of a LETHAL WEAPON, i have a problem with that.

D712
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Condition Four: Chamber empty, no magazine, hammer down.
Condition Three: Chamber empty, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition Two: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer down.
Condition One: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety on.
Condition Zero: A round chambered, full magazine in place, hammer cocked, safety off.


When I carry a Glock I carry in condition 3. Most people carry their Glock in Condition two so a proper holster is essential to ensure the trigger isn't touched by accident or the Glock will go off.

I thought condition 2 only applied to weapons that can fire from the open bolt position. Or is that just a military thing?


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app
 
Devised by pistol guru Jeff Cooper, this convention is used to designate the state of readiness of a m1911 pattern pistol. It can also be applied to most other designs of auto loading pistols.
The 5 conditions are:

Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also called "cocked and locked", this means that a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety is on.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked.
Condition 3 - There is no round in the chamber, the hammer is uncocked but a fully loaded magazine is inserted in the mag well.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, the hammer is uncocked and there is no magazine inserted in the mag well
Condition 1 is the preferred state of readiness if carrying a Single Action autoloader like the 1911 as it offers the best balance between safety and readiness. It does seem menacing to the untrained as the sight of a cocked hammer makes some people needlessly nervous.

Condition 2 is not recommended in the 1911 as it has no decocker and would entail pulling the trigger and slowly lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber. This both violates a gun safety rule and renders you with a gun that will not fire even if the trigger is pulled. And should the hammer slip you will then have a negligent discharge and possibly a broken thumb when the slide hits it on the recoil. On a DA/SA pistol with a decocker, like the Variant 1 H&K USP, this is a safe and ready way to carry. It is point and click.

Condition 3 offers an added margin of safety as there is actually no round in the chamber but has the disadvantage of taking a relatively longer time to get into action. The IDF is trained to carry their sidearms this way and hence the name "Israeli Draw".

Condition 4 is no way to carry a concealed sidearm unless there are legal reasons you can not carry a loaded firearm. Should you be unfortunate enough to be in such a country, carry a gun anyway, three seconds to put a gun in action still beats running back home to get one.
 
If you want a carry gun which is very accurate at 25 feet then the Glock 26 is your gun.


By the way I oppose any law which infringes on my right to buy and own an AR15 rifle. I do not object to taxes, fees, registration, etc of certain on certain firearms and accessories. I don't like them but I undersand the need for them.
 
Blade,

Watching the NH video you posted.

Can you tell me the logic of taking Phenobarbital prior to doing something like this? It's an anxiolytic, right? But is that the idea, just to stay calm during it all? I would think I would want to be hyped and sensitized, not calmed...

But then again, I'm not a masked bank robber.

D712
 
Blade,

Watching the NH video you posted.

Can you tell me the logic of taking Phenobarbital prior to doing something like this? It's an anxiolytic, right? But is that the idea, just to stay calm during it all? I would think I would want to be hyped and sensitized, not calmed...

But then again, I'm not a masked bank robber.

D712

Similar to people taking beta-blockers before public-speaking. Calm = focused. Just look at anyway who's too amped up on caffeine (or crack for that matter). Were I to have to be in a gunfight, I'd rather be the former than the latter. Assuming the dosage is correct, you don't want to be somnolent....
 
I do not have much interest in this topic. But I wonder why this "stream-of-conciousness" is used as an insult all over sdn. Never heard anybody use this term in real life except when referring to some novels. I don't really know what it means(am I going stream-of-conciousness now👍). Do they teach in ms3 psychiatry that stream-of-conciousness = schizophrenia? I would not be surprised if this was so in real life. But when you write on a message board, it's a little different from when you are talking to somebody face to face. Even keeping your own private diary is a little different from talking in front of a "colleague" or a boss or a judge. Do you think writing something mean in a diary makes you an evil person? How can you even tell that someone is angry here? Seems the only anger is that you are not declared a clear winner in your debate.

I don't think it's being used as an insult; there's just a certain way of writing and phrasing thoughts that should be followed for any meaningful communication to occur... as in concise and easy to read paragraphs, absence of random capitalized words and proper punctuation.
 
I don't think invoking the Bush administration is inappropriate here, because the operation was started by the Bush administration.

The operation was not started by the Bush administration. They did something similar, except (as I noted before)
- they actually tracked the guns
- they worked in concert with Mexican authorities
- they eventually acquired a clue and stopped

F&F was unbelievably stupid, and people should be fired because of it. Regardless, I don't want to derail the thread too much.

You're generally relatively rational in your arguments, but I'm calling you out on this one being a bit fishy.

An assault rifle was as alien to the founding fathers as mustard gas - why would they oppose individual possession of one and not the other? You're setting a pretty arbitrary line here.

Not really. One is just a rifle - they weren't stupid, of course they knew guns would get better over time. A weaponized cloud of gas was a totally novel invention and unexpected, up until the day some Germans opened some chlorine canisters on a battlefield.

But in any case, the "predictability" of a weapon's invention isn't really relevant here. The clear intent of the 2nd Amendment was an armed populace. There's a reason they used the vague word "arms" and not specific descriptive terms like "musket" ...

I don't think the line is arbitrary, though I can respect disagreement here. One set of weapons is usable by individuals or small groups of individuals against like-sized groups. The other set of weapons has NO use beyond strategic or terror attacks. Seems like a pretty clear and meaningful demarcation to me.


Also your interpretation of the second amendment is suspect, as you are missing the historical context. There wasn't really a standing army when the Constitution was signed. The US mainly depended upon a network of militias for defense. Eventually conflicts with the native Americans necessitated formation of a standing army, but the point of the second amendment wasn't to keep citizens armed against their government, it was to make citizens the defenders of their government.

Once a standing army was established (first in 1791), that rationale became less important.

It became less important for defense against a foreign enemy. But the Founders were clearly concerned about domestic tyranny as well, and desired an armed populace for that reason. A standing army didn't change this - indeed, won't ever change this.


If this shooting happened in Florida or Texas and you were carrying legally in those states would you have taken a shot?

Not if I wasn't sure of my target and what lay beyond it. It's not OK to defend your life by putting other people at risk.


In order for any gun control measure to truly be effective, it would have to be federal.

If you banned assault rifles nationwide, criminals would be limited to importing across national borders (difficult, at least smuggling weapons into the US) or by stealing them from military/law enforcement.

This would dramatically reduce the availability of these weapons to criminals and dramatically increase the price.

We had a federal ban on "assault weapons" for 10 years, and it didn't put the slightest dent in crime, or reduce availability to criminals. All it did was raise prices for law abiding citizens.

The illegal full auto guns used by the North Hollywood bank robbers occurred 63 years after machine guns were heavily regulated by the NFA, and 11 years after the registry was closed.

Why should we believe more laws and another attempt at a ban will have a different result?
 
I don't think it's being used as an insult; there's just a certain way of writing and phrasing thoughts that should be followed for any meaningful communication to occur... as in concise and easy to read paragraphs, absence of random capitalized words and proper punctuation.

This is exactly what I meant by using the term.
 
I don't think it's being used as an insult; there's just a certain way of writing and phrasing thoughts that should be followed for any meaningful communication to occur... as in concise and easy to read paragraphs, absence of random capitalized words and proper punctuation.

Nah. I'm doing just fine. Sans the typos that I found looking back.

Everyone's a critic... 😉

D712
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
The clear intent of the 2nd Amendment was an armed populace.
Ok...

There's a reason they used the vague word "arms" and not specific descriptive terms like "musket" ...
HOLY ****, let the BACKPEDALING BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW, all we have to do is think about today's STANDARDS in 2012 and make a rational decision about what "arms"
and armed populace SHOULD mean, and we are on target for a rational decision.

Unfortunately, PGG and the NRA think RPGs, GRENADES, TANKS, UZIs, AK-47s and F-15s should be construed into
the meaning of "arms" as intended by the Founders. Why, you ask?! Who the **** knows.

One set of weapons is usable by individuals or small groups of individuals against like-sized groups.
Yes, this is what handguns are regularly used for.


The other set of weapons has NO use beyond strategic or terror attacks.
Agreed, this is what AK-47s and AR-15s are used for by mass murderers. If PGG could only step back and read his OWN words.


Seems like a pretty clear and meaningful demarcation to me.
It would seem that way, yet you manage to place your personal armory and extremism in the way.

But the Founders were clearly concerned about domestic tyranny as well, and desired an armed populace for that reason.
Oy, here we go again...

Wanna psychoanalyze this post too, PGG?

D712
 
For the record, I'm not trying to argue just to argue..

With that said, an all out ban on assault weapons would almost certainly create a profitable and vibrant gun smuggling operation from the outside in, don't you think?

Maybe.

We can look at other modern civilized countries with complete or near-complete bans. The comparisons have flaws - just as it's difficult to point to the ubiquity of select-fire weapons in Switzerland or Israel gun culture and conclude anything about the consequences of doing the same in the US, we should be cautious about comparing what has happened in countries with draconian gun bans to what might happen if we did the same n the US.

But there doesn't seem to be a huge problem with gun smuggling and gun violence in the UK, for example.

Of course, Their gun ban didn't reduce crime or violence.

So declaring the UK's gun bans as some kind of success is silly. All that happened was that good citizens in the UK have surrendered a very basic civil right, in exchange for nothing.

They gave up an essential liberty, and didn't even get a little temporary safety out of the deal.



Also, I asked this a couple pages back ... I'd be interested in anyone who advocates an assault weapon ban to actually define what they mean by an "assault" weapon.
 
The operation was not started by the Bush administration. They did something similar, except (as I noted before)
- they actually tracked the guns
- they worked in concert with Mexican authorities
- they eventually acquired a clue and stopped

F&F was unbelievably stupid, and people should be fired because of it. Regardless, I don't want to derail the thread too much.

Gun walking started under Bush. So the conspiracy theories are silly.

The premise of the operation was sound as far as I understand it - just like in The Wire, you try to take down networks, not bust small timers.

Implementation was obviously flawed.

But let's not further derail the thread.

Not really. One is just a rifle - they weren't stupid, of course they knew guns would get better over time. A weaponized cloud of gas was a totally novel invention and unexpected, up until the day some Germans opened some chlorine canisters on a battlefield.

But in any case, the "predictability" of a weapon's invention isn't really relevant here. The clear intent of the 2nd Amendment was an armed populace. There's a reason they used the vague word "arms" and not specific descriptive terms like "musket" ...

I don't think the line is arbitrary, though I can respect disagreement here. One set of weapons is usable by individuals or small groups of individuals against like-sized groups. The other set of weapons has NO use beyond strategic or terror attacks. Seems like a pretty clear and meaningful demarcation to me.

I thought the point of weapons was to kill/disable people? Non conventional ones can do that quite efficiently.

It became less important for defense against a foreign enemy. But the Founders were clearly concerned about domestic tyranny as well, and desired an armed populace for that reason. A standing army didn't change this - indeed, won't ever change this.

The founders were more scared of a standing army than they were of citizens being disarmed. If you want to stay true to their intent, you should abolish the army first.

Not if I wasn't sure of my target and what lay beyond it. It's not OK to defend your life by putting other people at risk.

Easy to say when it isn't happening. Do you have actual combat training? Otherwise, you would probably have at best done nothing, at worst gotten other people killed.



We had a federal ban on "assault weapons" for 10 years, and it didn't put the slightest dent in crime, or reduce availability to criminals. All it did was raise prices for law abiding citizens.

The illegal full auto guns used by the North Hollywood bank robbers occurred 63 years after machine guns were heavily regulated by the NFA, and 11 years after the registry was closed.

Why should we believe more laws and another attempt at a ban will have a different result?

How about some statistics about the use of automatic weapons in crimes? That would be more relevant.
 
doctor712, I'm really not going to respond to you or engage you in conversation any more.

You can quote my posts and write what you like, of course, but there will be no replies.

I think I understood that about 20 posts ago. I will continue, however, to shoot down your arguments. No pun intended.

It is EXTREMELY important that I do so for others to see the opposing pov to the NRA.

D712
 
I thought the point of weapons was to kill/disable people? Non conventional ones can do that quite efficiently.

Specific people who are deliberately targeted. WMD kill random people.


The founders were more scared of a standing army than they were of citizens being disarmed. If you want to stay true to their intent, you should abolish the army first.

This is an interesting point. However, so long as we do have a standing army, that's all the more reason for citizens to remain armed.


Easy to say when it isn't happening. Do you have actual combat training? Otherwise, you would probably have at best done nothing, at worst gotten other people killed.

I do, actually. But again - as I've said multiple times in this thread - I don't think an armed person with a concealed carry permit would've been likely to stop this guy.

I wouldn't want to speculate what I may or may not have done, had I been there.


How about some statistics about the use of automatic weapons in crimes? That would be more relevant.

You want statistics on illegal weapons used in crimes, or legal weapons used in crimes?

Or do you not see the reason why the distinction is meaningful?
 
Specific people who are deliberately targeted. WMD kill random people.

That's not really true.

Just like an automatic weapon will kill a percentage of the people it is deployed against, the same is true of these weapons.

I think you need a stronger argument if you really want to make this distinction. Not to mention that WMD is a poorly defined term.

You want statistics on illegal weapons used in crimes, or legal weapons used in crimes?

Or do you not see the reason why the distinction is meaningful?

If they were manufactured in or legally imported into the US, no, I don't think it makes a difference.

I don't think those statistics exist though.
 
Colorado gun stores are seeing a big jump in demand for firearms since last Friday's massacre at a midnight movie showing in Aurora.
Background checks for people wanting to buy guns in Colorado reportedly increased more than 41 percent after last week's Aurora movie massacre. The Denver Post reports that firearm instructors have also seen increased interest in training needed for a concealed-carry permit.
"It's been insane," Jake Meyers, an employee at Rocky Mountain Guns and Ammo in Parker told the newspaper Monday.
Between Friday and Sunday, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation approved background checks for 2,887 people who wanted to purchase a firearm — a 43 percent increase over the previous Friday through Sunday and a 39 percent jump over those same days on the first weekend of July.
The biggest spike was on Friday, when there were 1,216 checks, a 43 percent increase over the average number for the previous two Fridays.
On Friday morning, just hours after alleged 24-year-old gunman James Holmes killed 12 and injured 58 others at the Century Aurora theater, up to 20 people were already waiting outside the store when Meyers arrived, he said.
He said the day was "probably the busiest Monday all year" and said basic firearms classes that he and the store's owner conduct are booked for the next three weeks — a first for this year, the newspaper reports.
"A lot of it is people saying, 'I didn't think I needed a gun, but now I do,' " he told the newspaper. "When it happens in your backyard, people start reassessing — 'Hey, I go to the movies.'"


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/24/background-checks-for-guns-in-colorado-reportedly-jump-41-percent-since-movie/#ixzz21YIxpXUX
 
still cannot get it to work, weird. maybe a safari glitch, moving over to firefox.

eta: please repost link, it's down on 2 browsers now. msnbc no longer exists, now nbcnews.com

D712
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/48283194#48283194

4 minute video about used gun sales. A must watch for those anti-gun advocates out there.

Much as I hate this kind of journalism, person-to-person transfers in states that don't require a dealer to be involved for the background check are a loophole. I don't have an objection to requiring all transfers to be done in the presence of a licensed dealer.

I think at least one of the people in the video may actually have been committing a crime though, as he implied he sold guns that way for profit, which would make him an unlicensed dealer. If you routinely sell guns out of your truck you're asking for prison time, regardless of state laws.

In any case, the number of crimes that are committed with guns obtained this way is estimated to be well under 1% so while changing the law to require a FFL to be involved is reasonable, it's not going to appreciably reduce crime or violence.
 
Much as I hate this kind of journalism, person-to-person transfers in states that don't require a dealer to be involved for the background check are a loophole. I don't have an objection to requiring all transfers to be done in the presence of a licensed dealer.

I think at least one of the people in the video may actually have been committing a crime though, as he implied he sold guns that way for profit, which would make him an unlicensed dealer. If you routinely sell guns out of your truck you're asking for prison time, regardless of state laws.

In any case, the number of crimes that are committed with guns obtained this way is estimated to be well under 1% so while changing the law to require a FFL to be involved is reasonable, it's not going to appreciably reduce crime or violence.

Do you have statistics for the primary sources for guns used in committing crimes?

Legitimately curious about this.
 
Do you have statistics for the primary sources for guns used in committing crimes?

Legitimately curious about this.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/fuo.txt

Code:
                         Percent of State inmates
                         possessing a firearm
Source of gun               1997        1991
     Total                 100.0%      100.0%
Purchased from --           13.9        20.8
  Retail store               8.3        14.7
  Pawnshop                   3.8         4.2
  Flea market                1.0         1.3
  [COLOR="Red"]Gun show                   0.7         0.6[/COLOR]
Friends or family           39.6        33.8
Street/illegal source       39.2        40.8
[...]

In 1997 among State inmates possessing a gun, fewer than 2% bought their firearm at a flea market or gun show, about 12% from a retail store or pawnshop, and 80% from family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source.

There are caveats to this data of course

1) Of those 0.7% of guns used in crimes that were bought at a gun show, we don't know how many were purchased through a dealer (background check required). Most guns bought at shows are bought from dealers. The so-called "gun show loophole" pertains to individual person-to-person sales, which in SOME states can be conducted without a licensed dealer involved to run the background check.

2) 0.7% of criminally used guns coming from gun shows may in fact be a (somewhat) alarming number IF nationwide fewer than 0.7% of ALL guns are bought at gun shows. This would suggest that a disproportionate number of criminally used guns came from shows.


I have seen more recent data, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Most prohibited persons get their illegal guns through old fashioned, essentially undetectable straw purchases. A non-prohibited family member or friend buys the gun and gives it to the criminal.
 
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/ascii/fuo.txt



There are caveats to this data of course

1) Of those 0.7% of guns used in crimes that were bought at a gun show, we don't know how many were purchased through a dealer (background check required). Most guns bought at shows are bought from dealers. The so-called "gun show loophole" pertains to individual person-to-person sales, which in SOME states can be conducted without a licensed dealer involved to run the background check.

2) 0.7% of criminally used guns coming from gun shows may in fact be a (somewhat) alarming number IF nationwide fewer than 0.7% of ALL guns are bought at gun shows. This would suggest that a disproportionate number of criminally used guns came from shows.


I have seen more recent data, I'll see if I can dig it up.

Most prohibited persons get their illegal guns through old fashioned, essentially undetectable straw purchases. A non-prohibited family member or friend buys the gun and gives it to the criminal.

Yeah, but where do the illegally purchased guns come from?

They're not being imported, at least not the bulk of them.
 
West Virginia top exporter per capita
West Virginia is the top exporter, per capita, of illegal guns, with 41 traced guns per 100,000 state residents, followed by Mississippi, at 39 guns per 100,000, and South Carolina, at 31. The average national rate is 11 exported guns. Kentucky, Alabama, Virginia, Georgia, Indiana, Nevada, and North Carolina round out the top 10 exporting states, per capita, reads the report, titled "The Movement of Illegal Guns In America: The Link between Gun Laws and Interstate Trafficking."
 
Yeah, but where do the illegally purchased guns come from?

They're not being imported, at least not the bulk of them.

😕

They come from straw purchasers.

Joe has a felony conviction. He can't pass a background check. He gives his girlfriend Sue $500, takes her to a gun store, and points at a Glock. Sue buys the gun for her baby's daddy and passes the background check. 12 seconds after they walk out the door, Joe has an illegally obtained gun. (If they're in California, 10 days and 12 seconds later they walk out the door and Joe has an illegally obtained gun.)

That's where almost all illegal guns come from.

Not guys selling $4000 .50 cals person-to-person in parking lots.
 
😕

They come from straw purchasers.

Joe has a felony conviction. He can't pass a background check. He gives his girlfriend Sue $500, takes her to a gun store, and points at a Glock. Sue buys the gun for her baby's daddy and passes the background check. 12 seconds after they walk out the door, Joe has an illegally obtained gun. (If they're in California, 10 days and 12 seconds later they walk out the door and Joe has an illegally obtained gun.)

That's where almost all illegal guns come from.

Not guys selling $4000 .50 cals person-to-person in parking lots.

My point was that those initial purchases are almost all legal. Not importation or illegal manufacture, just someone buying as many guns as he can in a state with lax laws (legally) and then selling them (illegally, but almost impossible to stop) to people who traffic in guns or directly to criminals.

It would be easy to cut off the flow completely, there just is no political will for further regulation and tracking of guns.
 
My point was that those initial purchases are almost all legal. Not importation or illegal manufacture, just someone buying as many guns as he can in a state with lax laws (legally) and then selling them (illegally, but almost impossible to stop) to people who traffic in guns or directly to criminals.

How would you propose we cut off the flow completely? Ban legal sales?

Because that's the only part of the chain from legal dealer to straw purchaser to prohibited person that regulation could conceivably impact.


It would be easy to cut off the flow completely, there just is no political will for further regulation and tracking of guns.

You say that like it's a bad thing. 😉

As for political will - Obama started talking about gun control in the last couple days, to the dismay of other Democrats who know what a poisonous issue this is for them. I thought it was interesting that Reid openly stated that gun control was off the table this year, but refused to comment on what might happen after the election.

Very similar to when Obama got caught on an open mike talking to Medvedev:

"This is my last election. After my election, I have more flexibility."

He was talking about missile defense. We know he favors gun control but lacks the political capital to pursue it currently without jeopardizing re-election. Anyone who thinks that just because he signed a law allowing carry in national parks and has been mostly silent on the issue during his presidency, that he favors 2nd Amendment rights beyond hunting, and that he isn't interested in more gun control after November, only needs to look as far as what he told the Russians about another sensitive topic:

"This is my last election. After my election, I have more flexibility."
 
Obama's never going to attempt anything with gun control. He doesn't have the spike for it.
 
Obama's never going to attempt anything with gun control. He doesn't have the spike for it.

Maybe not legislatively.

I do think he'd be willing in his 2nd term. Whether enough other Democrats would go along with it is another issue. They'll still have re-election to worry about. I don't see the Republicans losing their majority in the House, so new federal gun control is probably off the table even after an Obama win.


However, most of the progress in rolling back bad gun control over the last 10 years has come through the courts. Obama can (and will) do far more damage to 2nd Amendment rights if he gets 4 more years to appoint judges.

There are a lot of cases trickling through federal courts right now, a few of which are probably bound for the Supreme Court in the next 2-5 years. Heller & McDonald were 5-4 wins. The legal landscape even today would be substantially different if Heller had gone 4-5.
 
The bottom line is that Obama needs to lose next election. If he wins, by 2014, we'll have ATF agents going door-to-door collecting guns from households.

"CITIZEN, YOU ARE TO SURRENDER YOUR ARMS. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE."
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
They don't have to be, because they're still legal to produce, purchase, and own. If those laws change, then the import business will come..

Way too expensive and guns are much harder to smuggle than drugs.

Of course that would happen, but it would not replace the domestic illegal gun market in scale.

Anyone who "loses" a gun that is subsequently used in a crime should be required to forfeit all weapons and have their right to purchase arms revoked. There needs to be sufficient registration and tracking of weapons to make this possible.
 
Anyone who "loses" a gun that is subsequently used in a crime should be required to forfeit all weapons and have their right to purchase arms revoked. There needs to be sufficient registration and tracking of weapons to make this possible.

What exactly are you proposing? Like so-called "assault" weapon bans, the devil's in the details.

And the people who write gun control laws never, ever get the details right, either as a result of simple ignorance (we gotta ban barrel shrouds!) or deliberate malfeasance. As exhibit A, I again refer you to the absolute goatrope that the California laws are: CA flow chart to determine whether or not a rifle is an "assault" weapon. These laws are so complex that individuals with perfectly legal guns have been wrongfully arrested for possession of "assault" weapons by police who don't know the law - multiple times. See Richards v Harris.


You wrote that you favor changing the laws to make no distinction between how a person whose gun is legitimately stolen, and a willful straw purchaser? You didn't use those words, but you clearly stated you want to make the victim of a crime of theft a prohibited person. You want them to permanently surrender one of their most basic civil rights, #2 in our nation's Bill of Rights, because they were the victim of a crime? Really?

We could start with actually prosecuting people for being straw purchasers, which is rarely done. I'm not totally sure why - I assume because it's hard to prove deliberate intent there, since the primary witness to the crime is also a crimnal.

Of course, if you take a step closer towards reasonable, backpedal a bit, and revise your proposed law to only punish people who negligently lose guns that are later used in crimes, the burden and difficulty of proof is exponentially higher.

Remember, one of the claims at the center of the ATF's ridiculous defense to the Fast & Furious absurdity, was that they didn't have enough evidence to actually convict the straw purchasers they were tracking! But suddenly it's going to be feasible to convict people accused of accidentally-on-purpose "losing" guns?


Or we could back up further and look at states that already have laws to punish individuals who negligently store guns which are subsequently stolen, or who fail to report a stolen gun promptly:

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2007/rpt/2007-R-0335.htm

It doesn't appear that these laws are really being enforced either, or that anyone is keeping track of the actual impact of either those guns or the laws to promote better storage habits. And of course, as is always the case when it comes to gun laws, there isn't actually any documented reduction in violent crime.

What's the point of accepting infringments on liberty if there isn't even a tangible benefit?



As for registration -

The core of resistance to registration is that history teaches us that there's a high probability that eventually it will lead to or facilitate additional restrictions or outright confiscation. If you think confiscation is impossible or unlikely, I simply refer you to the deliberate and systematic confiscation of firearms from law-abiding people that occurred after Katrina. It took about two whole days for a simple natural disaster, one that was predicted a week+ in advance, to so strain civilization that the authorities felt the need to seize weapons.

I'm not the strawman yappy fabricated a couple posts back; I'm not really that worried about the police or ATF going door-to-door collecting guns in the near future. But I'm also not naive enough to pretend to know what the United States will be like in 50 or 100 years. In 1934 a bunch of racists, classists, and well-meaning easily manipulated idiots colluded to produce the National Firearms Act - here we are, 80 years later, still putting up with that law and its effects on lawful gun owners.

I'm not willing to tolerate another incremental gun control law, that my descendants in 2112 will look back on and with the same level of disgust that rational people today view the NFA ... or worse, that my descendants will find themselves geuniunely in need of their civil rights to armed self defense, armed community defense, or armed defense from tyranny ... and find themselves disarmed, except for hunting and target guns.

150 years ago we had a civil war. 70 years ago we had a world war. I find it disturbing that so many people are so complacant and confident that there won't be another existential threat to our nation 70 or 150 years from now. So complacent and confident that they're willing to incrementally disarm the public, because 12 murders made them afraid.

That wasn't even the biggest criminal body count in this country that weekend!


Attempts to create new registration requirements are not acceptable.
 
Yes, if you are irresponsible enough to lose a firearm, even if it is stolen (it was your responsibility to secure it), you should lose the right to purchase or own weapons (at least temporarily).

There could be something akin to a three strikes law with temporary suspensions vs permanent bans. This would both punish irresponsible gun owners and stop straw purchasers.

For repeat offenses, jail time should obviously be on the table.
 
Yes, if you are irresponsible enough to lose a firearm, even if it is stolen (it was your responsibility to secure it), you should lose the right to purchase or own weapons (at least temporarily).

There could be something akin to a three strikes law with temporary suspensions vs permanent bans. This would both punish irresponsible gun owners and stop straw purchasers.

For repeat offenses, jail time should obviously be on the table.

So you mean the laws we already have are OK?

Illinois said:
House Bill 1696 allows the Illinois State Police to revoke the Firearm Identification Card (required to purchase firearms in Illinois) of anyone whose firearm is lost or stolen and who fails to file a police report to that effect. A first violation is a petty offense. Any subsequent violation is a class A misdemeanor, publishable by imprisonment for up to one year, a fine of up to $2,500, or both.

Minnesota said:
A gun owner who knows or had reason to know of the theft or loss and fails to report it is guilty of a misdemeanor, which is punishable by a fine of up to $700, imprisonment for up to 90 days, or both for a first offense. Any subsequent violation is a gross misdemeanor, which is punishable by a fine of up to $3,000, imprisonment of up to one year, or both. Intentional failure to report is a gross misdemeanor, except that if the person had been previously convicted of failing to report, it is a felony, which is punishable by imprisonment of up to two years, a fine of up to $5,000, or both.

Pennsylvania said:
House Bill 29 requires any gun owner whose gun is lost or stolen to file a police report within 24 hours after discovering the loss or theft. An unintentional failure to report is punishable by a fine of up to $500. But if the failure is intentional, (1) a first offense is a 1st degree misdemeanor, punishable by a prison term of up to five years and (2) any subsequent offense is a 3rd degree felony punishable by a prison term of up to seven years, a fine of up to $15,000, or both (Pa. Stat. Ann., Crime Code § 106).



This would both punish irresponsible gun owners and stop straw purchasers.

So there aren't any straw purchasers in Illinois, Minnesota, or Pennsylvania? People don't have guns stolen in those states?



Is there a point at which you will admit that the solution to violent crime isn't more gun control, or more laws making crimes extra-extra-super-duper-illegal?


You're not a politician. You don't need to pander to idiots to show you're tough on crime, or that you have done something (anything) to make schools safe.

Gun control is security theater at the expense of law abiding citizens. It's less effective and a greater infringement of citizens' rights than anything the TSA does.

Which, I'll note, you seem to recognize for the absurdity it is. Here too. 🙂