Master thread for those who have found good jobs

[medgator]

Professional partnership in one year. Opportunity for technical buy-in.

'exceptional OR private OR practice OR opptunity OR STATECODE:"NE"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

2,497 'exceptional OR private OR practice OR opptunity OR STATECODE:

careers.astro.org

Didn't realize there was a Columbus in NE...

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[TDDro]

Banner year if you're looking academic, seems every other center is hiring. The flipside is it means an applicants market, will be interesting to see if institutions react accordingly (probably won't).

Analogous to what's gonna happen with the medstudent application cycle this year IMO...

 

[DukeNukem]

Banner year if you're looking academic, seems every other center is hiring.

Of course academics is hiring. There are new satellites to fill and unhappy, underpaid satellite docs to replace.

 

[xrthopeful]

Of course academics is hiring. There are new satellites to fill and unhappy, underpaid satellite docs to replace.

With how unhappy and miserable you claim you are, you would think you would have been looking at the ASTRO site. There have been plenty of main campus Academic jobs posted. More main than satellite.

I can send you a link if needed.

 

[DukeNukem]

How naive are you? Over half the "academic" jobs on the ASTRO site are satellite jobs. Even if the job doesn't say that it's a satellite position, they often are. They only tell you when you interview. You just hope that you're told by phone or at ASTRO rather than informed when you show up on site.

I've been through this personally numerous times and know people at several of the places hiring. For anonymity I'm not going to tell you which ones on ASTRO right now are really satellite jobs, but I know at least half are.

BTW, this includes the academic places that claim you get one (non-protected) "academic day" at the main center. Those jobs are a total gimmick and a super common way they justify it as "not a satellite job" to pay even less while giving no route for academic productivity or promotion.

 

[radOresident]

How naive are you? Over half the "academic" jobs on the ASTRO site are satellite jobs. Even if the job doesn't say that it's a satellite position, they often are. They only tell you when you interview. You just hope that you're told by phone or at ASTRO rather than informed when you show up on site.

I can confirm, at my institution that is what we've done in the past when trying to fill our satellites. We interview at ASTRO for main campus and invite select people but only tell them that it's one of the satellites 1.5-2 hours away once on site.

 

[medgator]

. For anonymity I'm not going to tell you which ones on ASTRO right now are really satellite jobs, but I know at least half are.

Cursory glance of the site would confirm that. Even lower tier places like wvu etc are looking to staff satellites

 

[deleted573262]

Cursory glance of the site would confirm that. Even lower tier places like wvu etc are looking to staff satellites

my magic eight ball predicts prostate sbrt at satellites for all future residents looking for jobs!

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

I can confirm, at my institution that is what we've done in the past when trying to fill our satellites. We interview at ASTRO for main campus and invite select people but only tell them that it's one of the satellites 1.5-2 hours away once on site.

This is so disrespectful of people's time.

 

[OTN]

This is so disrespectful of people's time.

At least is gives the applicant a sense of how much the department cares about their physicians.

 

[seper]

In the part of the country I'm working at, academic satellite jobs are replacing well-established, senior solo docs at those hospitals. New university hires accept about 280K while old docs compensation was often > 500K.

Of course academics is hiring. There are new satellites to fill and unhappy, underpaid satellite docs to replace.

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

At least is gives the applicant a sense of how much the department cares about their physicians.

It's true, if someone made me waste a minimum of 2 days of my time interviewing for a job with a location and job description totally different from what we had discussed with absolutely no advance warning, it would tell me a lot about what it would be like to work there.

 

[fiji128]

In the part of the country I'm working at, academic satellite jobs are replacing well-established, senior solo docs at those hospitals. New university hires accept about 280K while old docs compensation was often > 500K.

Sounds about right from my own experience. I also had a few places do the interview switcheroo. Advertised for a main site in a reasonable location but job is actually at a small community clinic 60 miles away. Why can't places be up front about what they are actually hiring for, who knows.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Sounds about right from my own experience. I also had a few places do the interview switcheroo. Advertised for a main site in a reasonable location but job is actually at a small community clinic 60 miles away. Why can't places be up front about what they are actually hiring for, who knows.

Because places that do (like U of Iowa who state it's a facility 75 miles outside and Cleveland Clinic trying to fill Mansfield which is like halfway to Columbus, 60-90 minutes outside of cleveland and Allegheny Health trying to fill Clarion which is 90 minutes outside Pittsburgh) probably struggle in getting people to apply to it. I know I didn't apply to any of those three jobs b/c screw that. I'm at risk for this exact scenario, so I guess that's what I'm going to be asking around at ASTRO.

For the record - I'm cool interviewing for an academic satellite if it's close to the major city it's affiliated with. Just be upfront about it ideally.

 

[scarbrtj]

Sounds about right from my own experience. I also had a few places do the interview switcheroo. Advertised for a main site in a reasonable location but job is actually at a small community clinic 60 miles away. Why can't places be up front about what they are actually hiring for, who knows.

The departments get "positive reinforcement" for their behavior because despite the relative mendacity of their actions they still get people ("I'll pass" is not an answer job-seekers give in a very tight job market) to accept job offers after the fact. And thus the cycle perpetuates. Bait-and-switch behavior by departments (and it's now academic departments who are radiation oncologists' primary employers/job-givers) is one marker IMHO of the badness of the job market.

 

[xrthopeful]

I think most places clearly say it in the posting or in initial phone calls/meeting at Astro.

It’s hard for me to believe that someone is going to fly you out and then tell you that the job isn’t for main after telling you on the phone or at ASTRO that it was at main. If this has happened it’s a clear rare occurrence. I’m not going to call anyone a liar but anyone who has applied recently or is applying now knows that this is far from the norm.

Agree with evil about those three satellites he mentioned being probably hard to fill. Many satellites in a city or close to city are much easier to fill

 

[deleted1002574]

Problem with debating with conspiracy theorists...

"But this new data point shows exactly the opposite of what you've been suggesting"

"Exactly. That's part of the conspiracy!"

WVU - lists that it's satellites
UNC - lists that it's satellites (and they definitely pay terrible)
CCF - says that it's a satellite ("Meths"field)
The zillion UWashington jobs - had exodus, These are main site. Will probably need housing vouchers. They do list one that's a satellite.
Beaumont - clearly says one is a new site and the other will be "at one of our three major centers". Probably some amount of time up and down I-75.

I'm sure someone's buddy's cousin's former girlfriend got hosed and was told it was a satellite, when they thought it wasn't.

How about just asking the person on the phone? "I'm excited about this position. It is at your main site, correct? Because I'm currently not interested in a satellite position." It's not that hard to do some due diligence when you're, you know, making a significant career decision.

 

[fiji128]

The story I was given was that the position that I applied to had "already been filled" but hey we have this other opportunity to check out.

 

[xrthopeful]

Problem with debating with conspiracy theorists...

"But this new data point shows exactly the opposite of what you've been suggesting"

"Exactly. That's part of the conspiracy!"

WVU - lists that it's satellites
UNC - lists that it's satellites (and they definitely pay terrible)
CCF - says that it's a satellite ("Meths"field)
The zillion UWashington jobs - had exodus, These are main site. Will probably need housing vouchers. They do list one that's a satellite.
Beaumont - clearly says one is a new site and the other will be "at one of our three major centers". Probably some amount of time up and down I-75.

I'm sure someone's buddy's cousin's former girlfriend got hosed and was told it was a satellite, when they thought it wasn't.

How about just asking the person on the phone? "I'm excited about this position. It is at your main site, correct? Because I'm currently not interested in a satellite position." It's not that hard to do some due diligence when you're, you know, making a significant career decision.

Yep.

Places that have listed for their main site off top of my head - UNC, Kansas, Kentucky, Arkansas, Harvard, yale, WashU, Emory, Baylor

 

[evilbooyaa]

I have been informed that at least one 'academic' position listed on ASTRO is actually for a satellite. I agree that most people, if it's important to you, should be directly asking that at ASTRO interviews before you commit to an on-site. Agree that it's rare that a true bait and switch is happening at that stage of the game.

I have been pleasantly surprised at the number of academic (at least on paper) jobs that have been posted in the past few weeks.

 

[OTN]

I think most places clearly say it in the posting or in initial phone calls/meeting at Astro.

It’s hard for me to believe that someone is going to fly you out and then tell you that the job isn’t for main after telling you on the phone or at ASTRO that it was at main. If this has happened it’s a clear rare occurrence. I’m not going to call anyone a liar but anyone who has applied recently or is applying now knows that this is far from the norm.

Agree with evil about those three satellites he mentioned being probably hard to fill. Many satellites in a city or close to city are much easier to fill

They're only hard to fill because they're taking former $500K+ jobs and trying to fill them at $275k/yr. I'm sure they'll fill soon, though.

Financially, academic departments have become the biggest enemy of radiation oncology physicians. It's tough NOT to think about a conspiracy when the same people who are increasing residency spots directly benefit financially from the increased supply.

 

[Neuronix]

I'm sure someone's buddy's cousin's former girlfriend got hosed and was told it was a satellite, when they thought it wasn't.

This happened a few years ago to a new grad interviewee where I trained. It was sprung on them when they arrived for an on site interview that the main center job they discussed at ASTRO was already filled, but a nice new satellite job was available one hour away. Boy was that applicant pissed off.

 

[PleaseRemainCalm]

I think most places clearly say it in the posting or in initial phone calls/meeting at Astro.

It’s hard for me to believe that someone is going to fly you out and then tell you that the job isn’t for main after telling you on the phone or at ASTRO that it was at main. If this has happened it’s a clear rare occurrence. I’m not going to call anyone a liar but anyone who has applied recently or is applying now knows that this is far from the norm.

Agree with evil about those three satellites he mentioned being probably hard to fill. Many satellites in a city or close to city are much easier to fill

There are a lot humiliating things that can happen in this job search process and not everyone is going to be upfront with just anyone about how much they got lowballed their salary, how little of their academic job is actually devoted to research, or what kind of things they went through to get an interview. Many people are probably going to pretend that whatever situation they end up in is what they wanted all along.

 

[Irradi8or]

There are a lot humiliating things that can happen in this job search process and not everyone is going to be upfront with just anyone about how much they got lowballed their salary, how little of their academic job is actually devoted to research, or what kind of things they went through to get an interview. Many people are probably going to pretend that whatever situation they end up in is what they wanted all along.

Yes, this happened to me. I went to an academic interview that was 2 days long. There was a lot of mutual interest, and in fact at the end of the second day, the chair said they wanted to extend an offer to me. However, the chair said that the day before I came for the interview, they were strong armed by an applicant who had interviewed the week prior and ended up offering that person the job right before I started the interview. That applicant had accepted like during my interview day. The chair therefore only had satellite positions open. That was pretty disappointing and basically 3 days of my time...

 

[Mandelin Rain]

You guys see through those lines as complete fabrications, right?

 

[dieABRdie]

Professional partnership in one year. Opportunity for technical buy-in.

'exceptional OR private OR practice OR opptunity OR STATECODE:"NE"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

2,497 'exceptional OR private OR practice OR opptunity OR STATECODE:

careers.astro.org

Didn't realize there was a Columbus in NE...

I am very familiar with this practice and have told the medical director I would assist in recruiting. I think the ideal candidate might be a rad onc who has become financially independent and can take the risk of buying.... but also might have a family looking for a nice place to raise kids.

Please PM me if you are truly interested. I'm not sure what info she wants posted.

 

[medgator]

Trying to read between the lines here...

My guess: older rad onc with a tiny shop in the middle of nowhere looking for someone to do the work while the owner collects the technical. The alternative is to pay several million to buy the shop.

How close am I? If I'm right, it would certainly not be the only "partnership" opportunity like this.

Realistically it seems like an undesirable location and the listing does mention collecting full professional fees after a year, which seems about right if it is truly a difficult place to recruit to. Could try to negotiate a percentage of global collections for the center.

Best thing would be to talk to any previous associates to get a feel for the situation.

 

[fiji128]

I am very familiar with this practice and have told the medical director I would assist in recruiting. I think the ideal candidate might be a rad onc who has become financially independent and can take the risk of buying.... but also might have a family looking for a nice place to raise kids.

Please PM me if you are truly interested. I'm not sure what info she wants posted.

Wish there were more opportunities out there like this. Would much rather invest in myself like this then play the RVU game.

 

[w00tz]

Wish there were more opportunities out there like this.

People in the boonies need radiation treatment too, so it's good that there are people like you out there. I briefly lived in a city with a population that was 50% greater than Colombus, Nebraska and couldn't imagine being there long term. For me it's mostly the big city amenities I'm used to. But another thing I'm glad I don't have to deal with as much in a larger city is racism. The racism in these smaller towns is mostly ignorantly "benign", but have experienced more "malicious" racism than I have in the larger cities.

 

[dieABRdie]

Trying to read between the lines here...

My guess: older rad onc with a tiny shop in the middle of nowhere looking for someone to do the work while the owner collects the technical. The alternative is to pay several million to buy the shop.

How close am I? If I'm right, it would certainly not be the only "partnership" opportunity like this.

very wrong

 

[Neuronix]

very wrong

In the small world that is rad onc it turns out that I know dieABRdie, and they assure me that it's a real opportunity with reasonable partnership track that just happens to be in the middle of nowhere. I have removed my post.

 

[medgator]

In the small world that is rad onc it turns out that I know dieABRdie, and they assure me that it's a real opportunity with reasonable partnership track that just happens to be in the middle of nowhere. I have removed my post.

That's where I would expect to find them most often, even when the job market was better. 2-4 year partnership tracks have been the norm traditionally for more desirable areas. This is offering full pro fees after a year of working there

 

[bobloblaw]

I'm not trying to be inflammatory, but I am curious to know what current job applicants are looking for in their first job out of training?

In past years, my sense of the postings on studentdoctor has been that there was a lot of disappointment about the number of jobs available, reflecting the state of the job market at that time.

This year it appears that the # of job postings has increased, but now I am reading messages displaying dissatisfaction about the types of job postings available or anticipation that these jobs will be exploitative or subpar in some other way.

I am trying to understand if this reflects deficiencies in the job market, a general lack of trust among job applicants, unrealistic expectations, or something else?

 

[xrthopeful]

I feel like 300-350 is reasonable expectation for most people for their first year salary, and that’s most of what I hear is out there.

 

[medgator]

I feel like 300-350 is reasonable expectation for most people for their first year salary, and that’s most of what I hear is out there.

It's never about the first years salary when it comes to looking for a long term job...

 

[bobloblaw]

I realized that since I asked the question I should probably also provide my own answer.

My salary # also landed around $300-350 for a new grad, taking into account both salary and incentive.
Could be a bit higher in less densely populated areas and a bit lower in densely populated (saturated) large cities.

Would also want to have discussion/disclosure up front of the following:
- formula for determining the incentive/bonus (if there is one)
- how is my performance measured. what are they looking for me to contribute (mainly RVUs, practice building, program building)?
- how is salary growth determined (what is the pathway for moving forward in the practice?)
- what is the track record for promotion (if academic) or offering partnership (if private practice)?
- terms for joining a partnership (if it's a private practice - time to partnership, cost for buy-in, what exactly does the buy-in purchase?)
- how does the group measure productivity (i.e. kill what you eat, shared productivity models?) - i.e. am I competing with my colleagues?
- terms for leaving (i.e. malpractice tail coverage, buy-out, how is outstanding A/R handled, what amount of notice is required when leaving the practice?)
- what is the referral base like?
- is there a restrictive covenant?
- benefits structure (life insurance, health insurance, RETIREMENT CONTRIBUTIONS from the EMPLOYER/PRACTICE) <-- this is important over the long term

 

[xrthopeful]

It's never about the first years salary when it comes to looking for a long term job...

Oh I hundred percent agree

 

[deleted941485]

I realized that since I asked the question I should probably also provide my own answer.

My salary # also landed around $300-350 for a new grad, taking into account both salary and incentive.
Could be a bit higher in less densely populated areas and a bit lower in densely populated (saturated) large cities.

Would also want to have discussion/disclosure up front of the following:
- formula for determining the incentive/bonus (if there is one)
- how is my performance measured. what are they looking for me to contribute (mainly RVUs, practice building, program building)?
- how is salary growth determined (what is the pathway for moving forward in the practice?)
- what is the track record for promotion (if academic) or offering partnership (if private practice)?
- terms for joining a partnership (if it's a private practice - time to partnership, cost for buy-in, what exactly does the buy-in purchase?)
- how does the group measure productivity (i.e. kill what you eat, shared productivity models?) - i.e. am I competing with my colleagues?
- terms for leaving (i.e. malpractice tail coverage, buy-out, how is outstanding A/R handled, what amount of notice is required when leaving the practice?)
- what is the referral base like?
- benefits structure (life insurance, health insurance, RETIREMENT CONTRIBUTIONS from the EMPLOYER/PRACTICE) <-- this is important over the long term

How long have they been starting at 300-350? That’s been the starting at our shop for the last 10 years and we aren’t out in the middle of no where either. What I have noticed is that nowadays they tack on more and more quality metrics in the contracts.

 

[deleted941485]

How long have they been starting at 300-350? That’s been the starting at our shop for the last 10 years and we aren’t out in the middle of no where either. What I have noticed is that nowadays they tack on more and more quality metrics in the contracts.

If you were starting the grads at 300-350 ten years ago.

That’s about 14% less just from inflation. From 09’-19’.

I can’t say the upside has increase much either in real terms

 

[bobloblaw]

Accurate salary data is hard to come by. I pulled some #s from the ARRO 1st year salary survey (i.e. the Terry Wall talk):

Private Practice:
2018 - average 353.5k, median 330k, range 240-525k
2017 - average 362.4k, median 325k, range 220k - 540k
2016 - average 320k, median 300k, range 290 - 490k
2015 - average 319.9k, median 300k, range 200 - 565k
2014 - average 327.5k, median 325k, range 180 - 550k
2013 - average 300.8k, median 300k, range 230 - 400k
2012 - average 285k, median 302, range 180-450k
2011 - average 310k, range 215 - 400k
2009 - average 256k
2005 - average 215k

Academic:
2018- average 299.5k, median 310k
2017 - average 288.2k, median 280k
2016 - average - 297.2k
2015 - average 287.8k, median 300k
2013 - 267k (slides do not specify with this is average or median, but most likely average)
2012 - 269k
2010 - 246k
2009 - 252k
2008 - 235k
2005 - 205k
2004 - 183.5k

This does not address issues of salary compression several years into practice, but is the most reliable information out there (that I am aware of anyway) WRT 1st year salaries.

 

[xrthopeful]

Awesome, thanks for compiling that for everyone

 

[bobloblaw]

Awesome, thanks for compiling that for everyone

Hope it is helpful.

There is a lot of useful advice in the Practice Entry Survey ARRO talk (it's available to stream or download as pdfs if you have access to any of the recent ASTRO virtual annual meetings). It's almost the same talk every year but the content is highly relevant to first time job-seekers.

 

[scarbrtj]

Accurate salary data is hard to come by. I pulled some #s from the ARRO 1st year salary survey (i.e. the Terry Wall talk):

Private Practice:
2018 - average 353.5k, median 330k, range 240-525k
2017 - average 362.4k, median 325k, range 220k - 540k
2016 - average 320k, median 300k, range 290 - 490k
2015 - average 319.9k, median 300k, range 200 - 565k
2014 - average 327.5k, median 325k, range 180 - 550k
2013 - average 300.8k, median 300k, range 230 - 400k
2012 - average 285k, median 302, range 180-450k
2011 - average 310k, range 215 - 400k
2009 - average 256k
2005 - average 215k

View attachment 278459

Academic:
2018- average 299.5k, median 310k
2017 - average 288.2k, median 280k
2016 - average - 297.2k
2015 - average 287.8k, median 300k
2013 - 267k (slides do not specify with this is average or median, but most likely average)
2012 - 269k
2010 - 246k
2009 - 252k
2008 - 235k
2005 - 205k
2004 - 183.5k

View attachment 278460

This does not address issues of salary compression several years into practice, but is the most reliable information out there (that I am aware of anyway) WRT 1st year salaries.

"Believe me or not," as they say.
2003-05 timeframe "no one" was taking less than $500K at 1-2y out of residency as a possible job. A 200K average PP salary in 2005 is just, pardon me, an inaccuracy. To be fair the numbers are conflating "average" and "starting" above, but I just wanted to chime in and say that as labelled ("average salary") the graphs are wrong.
The average private practice being quoted right here, on this very site, ~15 years ago was what... >$1 million??? To start was ~200K at a minimum. So your "average salary" graph needs to be changed to maybe "average starting salaries."
Even the lowest academic job taker (a woman!) at my training institution circa 2003 was getting ~240K to start.

 

[medgator]

. So your "average salary" graph needs to be changed to maybe "average starting salaries."
Even the lowest academic job taker (a woman!) at my training institution circa 2003 was getting ~240K to start.

First sentence of his post indicated it was first year starting salary

 

[MegaVoltagePhoton]

"Believe me or not," as they say.
2003-05 timeframe "no one" was taking less than $500K at 1-2y out of residency as a possible job. A 200K average PP salary in 2005 is just, pardon me, an inaccuracy. To be fair the numbers are conflating "average" and "starting" above, but I just wanted to chime in and say that as labelled ("average salary") the graphs are wrong.
The average private practice being quoted right here, on this very site, ~15 years ago was what... >$1 million??? To start was ~200K at a minimum. So your "average salary" graph needs to be changed to maybe "average starting salaries."
Even the lowest academic job taker (a woman!) at my training institution circa 2003 was getting ~240K to start.

Not only is the quoted post/survey very literally talking about starting salaries, the linked thread includes Stephew, 10 years ago, saying that the starting academic/PP salary was 200-300k.

 

[scarbrtj]

Not only is the quoted post/survey very literally talking about starting salaries, the linked thread includes Stephew, 10 years ago, saying that the starting academic/PP salary was 200-300k.

Yeah maybe I'm like Donny, but that old thread would be part of my point: starting salaries 200-300k 10 years (10-15y ago actually) ago are not much different than the starting salaries of today. This thesis would conflict with the graphs. And what is a "starting" salary? The salary you're making on the first day of your job? The amount you make at month six? The amount you make after year one? The average over your first three years out of residency? Suffice it to say any graph of any sort of salary (starting, year one, year thirty, what have you) in radiation oncology showing the rises as shown in these graphs has veracity problems... again, maybe from my POV only. However the part where bobloblaw said "Accurate salary data is hard to come by" has zero veracity problems and has always been the case in radiation oncology.

 

[deleted1002574]

Through the “carnival tricks”, he’s actually right. If that data is saying something, it’s is saying that in absolute dollars that the first year starting salary was $256k-290k in 2009-2011 and $353k-362k in 2017-2018.

Uh. No. Perhaps the absolute dollars starting salary has gone up a smidge. But there has not been a $275->$350k bump in that 8 year time span. There has not been a >25% increase in starting salary for private practice. Full stop. End of sentence. That is bad data. I’d rather have no data, than bad data that plays right into the hands of the wrong people.

Tell me - any of the private practice guys on this board- is your starting salary 25-30% higher for new grads today compared to 2010?

 

[medgator]

Tell me - any of the private practice guys on this board- is your starting salary 25-30% higher for new grads today compared to 2010?

Nope

 

[deleted1002574]

With equipment and labor costs rising, reimbursements and volumes decreasing, you think these small businesses that have lower and lower partner incomes are deciding to increase their new hire salaries by 25-30%? I mean the audacity of this...

Partner incomes are down 30-40% in absolute dollars (one can make the argument that some folks were making too much, but that’s not the issue).

Don’t let these numbers fool you. They are incorrect.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Through the “carnival tricks”, he’s actually right. If that data is saying something, it’s is saying that in absolute dollars that the first year starting salary was $256k-290k in 2009-2011 and $353k-362k in 2017-2018.

Uh. No. Perhaps the absolute dollars starting salary has gone up a smidge. But there has not been a $275->$350k bump in that 8 year time span. There has not been a >25% increase in starting salary for private practice. Full stop. End of sentence. That is bad data. I’d rather have no data, than bad data that plays right into the hands of the wrong people.

Tell me - any of the private practice guys on this board- is your starting salary 25-30% higher for new grads today compared to 2010?

Thanks for this post. While I feel like it's more likely that those making < 250k (or < 275k) are less likely to give their numbers (in the current era) even in anonymous fashion, it's good once in a while to have some real world corroboration from those that are actually out there.