Match rates are really high!! Why all the Gunning???

[TOMFighter]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

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[Blesbok]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

You really think interviewing at 30 locations and having a 60% chance of of matching in one of those is a good match rate?! Nonetheless having any chance of matching into the location of your choice.

 

[njbmd]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

There is no "all the gunning". Don't believe everything that you read. Most people aren't even interested in derm.

 

[DrDre311]

There is no "all the gunning". Don't believe everything that you read. Most people aren't even interested in derm.

Derm = boring.

And I definitely wouldn't consider 60% a high match rate. The numbers you reference don't mean that 60% of people wanting to do derm get into it. It means that: of all the people that apply to derm, those that are subsequently granted interviews (and there are many who apply and are granted zero interviews), accept those interviews, and submit a rank list with a derm program ranked #1--about 60% of U.S. allopathic seniors in this category match into dermatology. I'd have to back and look at the NRMP's numbers to give you an exact percentage.

These are not good odds (better than the odds for plastic surgery, but still not good). You have to be a pretty good applicant to be granted any derm interviews at all, and even if you are, then you still have a 40% chance of failing to match in your chosen field. If you're really interested in derm then I advise you to PM MOHS_01, who can help you with derm stuff more than I can.

 

[indo]

a wise forensic pathologist said about derm, "if it is wet, dry it and if it is dry, wet it".

 

[vtucci]

The statistics do not tell the whole story. Many students self-select out of the more competitive specialties if their stats including board scores do not make them competitive for the field.

 

[Long Dong]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

That rate is for people who were granted an interview, not all those that applied. Around 900 actually apply for ~300 spots for a match rate of ~30%.

 

[DrDre311]

That rate is for people who were granted an interview, not all those that applied. Around 900 actually apply for ~300 spots for a match rate of ~30%.

PRS is similar: about 300 apply for ~90 spots.

 

[Law2Doc]

That rate is for people who were granted an interview, not all those that applied. Around 900 actually apply for ~300 spots for a match rate of ~30%.

Agreed. And it's actually worse than that because there is a ton of self selecting and heavy handed advising. Your school probably will not even let you apply for derm if you were a mediocre student with an average Step. Someone will sit you down and tell you that you don't have a chance, and should try to get excited about one of the less competitive specialties. So the 900 you mention might be a third of the folks who originally like the idea of derm in early med school.

This thread is a good example of why published statistics can be misused and misunderstood. 94% of US allo students will match into something, and most will get their "first" choice. But that is a "first" choice after self selecting, heavy handed advising, applying, getting interviews, etc. So it may have been way way way down the list when you started the process. Unlike undergrad folks often aren't allowed by their schools to take long shots in this process, and what they rank highly tend to be the chip shots -- things they are competitive for and had good interviews at. You apply to things you think you'll get. So the fact that there's a 60% match in something is actually pretty crummy odds.

 

[IHeartNerds]

Meh, who cares what the match rate is? Gunning to some degree is ingrained in your personality by the time you reach MS1....it's hard to stop old habits. And med school isn't too good about letting the uncompetitive type in, despite what every wanna-be-type-b person in your class may say.

 

[Rogue Synapse]

Nope, I'm about as uncompetitive as they come, despite what you say about every nonexistent wanna-be type b person in your class. I don't just want to be type b. I am! In a way, I'm competitive about being the least competitive.

*BLINK*

that was me blinking out of existence in a self-paradox vortex

 

[Timmythemic22]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

Only thing I'm gunning for is your mom.

 

[LadyWolverine]

Why all the gunning?

Because that's what medical students are born and bred to do. Haven't you noticed all of the "I'm in high school, what college should I go to in order to have the easiest classes and get the highest GPA" threads popping up as of late? They're getting younger and younger. Once you've turned someone into a competitive machine through years of conditioning, it's really hard to change them back.

 

[sirus_virus]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

So you might avoid becoming one of the unsuccessful 40% of whom you choose to ignore.

Now, if you so happen to be one of the unsuccessful 40%, you are going to end up scrambling into another specialty. Some of whom will make you log 30 hour shifts and disempact seniors routinely. Somewhere in the middle of that, you are going to wish you had gunned a little more.

 

[DrDre311]

So you might avoid becoming one of the unsuccessful 40% of whom you choose to ignore.

Now, if you so happen to be one of the unsuccessful 40%, you are going to end up scrambling into another specialty. Some of whom will make you log 30 hour shifts and disempact seniors routinely. Somewhere in the middle of that, you are going to wish you had gunned a little more.

I gunned a little bit. Not too much, but a little bit. I'm not gonna lie about it.

 

[cfdavid]

Nope, I'm about as uncompetitive as they come, despite what you say about every nonexistent wanna-be type b person in your class. I don't just want to be type b. I am! In a way, I'm competitive about being the least competitive.

*BLINK*

that was me blinking out of existence in a self-paradox vortex

Well, you'll probably live longer than most of our peers, here. I can't imagine the hypersensitive symathetics of a Type A is too good for the ole cardiovascular system over the long haul......

 

[cfdavid]

Only thing I'm gunning for is your mom.

very mature.

 

[Moniker]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

maybe you should be more specific...what exactly is it that's bothering you about this? the word "gunning" has many different meanings.

 

[Long Dong]

So you might avoid becoming one of the unsuccessful 40% of whom you choose to ignore.

Now, if you so happen to be one of the unsuccessful 40%, you are going to end up scrambling into another specialty. Some of whom will make you log 30 hour shifts and disempact seniors routinely. Somewhere in the middle of that, you are going to wish you had gunned a little more.

Yeah on top of that if you do get the specialty you want, you might not get the location you want. You'd wished you gunned a little more when your on call christmas and new years and your family/gf/friends are over 2,000 miles away and on your one day off on tuesday you don't know anyone to do anything with but just sit and be miserable in your apartment by yourself. So for location you'd wished you gunned it a little bit more.

I only gunned it on my boards, studied a little more then most for step 1 and 2. On the wards and classroom I just did my work and nothing extra, school was pass/fail.

 

[Doublecortin]

So you might avoid becoming one of the unsuccessful 40% of whom you choose to ignore.

Now, if you so happen to be one of the unsuccessful 40%, you are going to end up scrambling into another specialty. Some of whom will make you log 30 hour shifts and disempact seniors routinely. Somewhere in the middle of that, you are going to wish you had gunned a little more.

and correct me if I am wrong, but if you don't match derm or plastics or whatnot the first time, it's infinitely harder to match the second time around, even if you do research for 5 years and get tons of pubs. So basically, you get only one shot, one opportunity at your dream,
if that doesn't scare you and motivate you to gun like crazy, I don't know what will

 

[Law2Doc]

and correct me if I am wrong, but if you don't match derm or plastics or whatnot the first time, it's infinitely harder to match the second time around, even if you do research for 5 years and get tons of pubs. So basically, you get only one shot, one opportunity at your dream,
if that doesn't scare you and motivate you to gun like crazy, I don't know what will

You generally only do the match once, and if you don't get in someplace, you scramble for an open slot in whatever specialty is leftover. Med school is all about single shots. You get one shot at Step 1, one shot on the match, etc.

 

[Doublecortin]

You generally only do the match once, and if you don't get in someplace, you scramble for an open slot in whatever specialty is leftover. Med school is all about single shots. You get one shot at Step 1, one shot on the match, etc.

that's the best answer to the OP's question

 

[Moniker]

You generally only do the match once, and if you don't get in someplace, you scramble for an open slot in whatever specialty is leftover. Med school is all about single shots. You get one shot at Step 1, one shot on the match, etc.

no but he's right - if you were to forego the scramble and try to "reapply next year" after doing a year or two of internship or research, you chances of matching are worse, not better.

 

[Law2Doc]

no but he's right - if you were to forego the scramble and try to "reapply next year" after doing a year or two of internship or research, you chances of matching are worse, not better.

I'd actually go further and say that chances of getting into derm after a failed match are nonexistant, not worse. I sure didn't suggest "better" in my post.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

You generally only do the match once, and if you don't get in someplace, you scramble for an open slot in whatever specialty is leftover. Med school is all about single shots. You get one shot at Step 1, one shot on the match, etc.

Also taking one shot in the face can get you into the specialty of your choice. OP you should try it, you might like it.

 

[Doublecortin]

Also taking one shot in the face can get you into the specialty of your choice. OP you should try it, you might like it.

hah, wtf?!?

 

[Taurus]

 

[mikedc813]

and correct me if I am wrong, but if you don't match derm or plastics or whatnot the first time, it's infinitely harder to match the second time around, even if you do research for 5 years and get tons of pubs. So basically, you get only one shot, one opportunity at your dream,
if that doesn't scare you and motivate you to gun like crazy, I don't know what will

I completely disagree with this. For the most competitive fields, you're not doomed if you don't match on your first try. If you improve your application, most commonly through significant research, you put yourself in a strong position to match on your 2nd try. MANY well-qualified people don't match into really competitive programs, people with 250+ Step scores who are AOA for example. On the other hand less qualified people (at least on paper) do match. It's sort of a crap shoot. My point is that re-applicants can be seen as being just as competitive as first time applicants if they do the necessary things to strengthen weaknesses in their applications.

 

[mikedc813]

Match rates for desired specialty are actually VERY HIGH. Even the most competitive dermatology residency is 60%

Why all the gunning?

I agree that the % that successfully match into the most competitive residencies can be surprisingly high. However, realize that almost everyone who applies to these residencies is EXTREMELY competitive. These are theoretically some of the best and brightest in the medical field. When you are studying hard in med school with the intent to match into one of these fields, remember that you are not really competing against your class so much as the hundreds of people throughout the country who are also applying for derm, rad onc, plastics, etc. I luckily matched into radiation oncology this year, but know of MANY people who were AOA and had 250+ Step scores and multiple publications that didn't match into rad onc. It's hard to believe, but the competition is really incredible in some fields. That's why it's important to work hard throughout med school if your goal is to get into a competitive residency.

 

[Doublecortin]

I agree that the % that successfully match into the most competitive residencies can be surprisingly high. However, realize that almost everyone who applies to these residencies is EXTREMELY competitive. These are theoretically some of the best and brightest in the medical field. When you are studying hard in med school with the intent to match into one of these fields, remember that you are not really competing against your class so much as the hundreds of people throughout the country who are also applying for derm, rad onc, plastics, etc. I luckily matched into radiation oncology this year, but know of MANY people who were AOA and had 250+ Step scores and multiple publications that didn't match into rad onc. It's hard to believe, but the competition is really incredible in some fields. That's why it's important to work hard throughout med school if your goal is to get into a competitive residency.

that's really freakin' scary!
why do you think they didn't match? Didn't apply to enough programs? Poor interviewing skills?

 

[vtucci]

Students are taught to be gunners. Relentless pursuit if high grades is required to gain entry to medical school. To a similar extent, it is required to gain entry into the really competitive fields.

Why is this the case? We are perpetuating a myth that those with the highest grades/board scores must be the best and smartest doctors. It is true that there are some fantastic and really caring people who have high board scores and test averages. It is also true that there are some people who just test well and should not be permitted anywhere near a patient. However, because it is often harder to judge these other qualities that make someone a good physician, we try to rely more heavily on the "objective" criteria (test scores).

For most medical schools, mere points separate the top of the class from the bottom of the class and what makes the best doctor will long be a matter open to interpretation.

 

[DrDre311]

I completely disagree with this. For the most competitive fields, you're not doomed if you don't match on your first try. If you improve your application, most commonly through significant research, you put yourself in a strong position to match on your 2nd try. MANY well-qualified people don't match into really competitive programs, people with 250+ Step scores who are AOA for example. On the other hand less qualified people (at least on paper) do match. It's sort of a crap shoot. My point is that re-applicants can be seen as being just as competitive as first time applicants if they do the necessary things to strengthen weaknesses in their applications.

I can't speak for rad onc or derm or whatever but I can tell you this: the number of people that match into integrated plastics as re-applicants is infinitesimally small. I have only heard of one person in this situation. He interiewed at 17-18 places his first time but didn't match (i.e. near miss the first time), did a prelim year, reapplied and was only extended 4 interviews. He was lucky and matched the second time around but had to repeat his intern year. I can think of 2 more people who snuck in through side doors when people quit and there were openinings, but these were people with 4 years GS training--so not all that far from the traditional route.

The fact is that if you don't match in PRS the first time around you have 3 things working against you for the following year:

(1) Your app just isn't that different. Your grades and scores are still the same and you're only a few months into internship when the application process starts over again. In most cases your letters are the same. Maybe if you took several years to do research it might matter but most people choose to go the gen surg-->independent plastics match route instead of putting their lives on hold to do lab work which may or may not help you much.

(2) Applicants get more competitive every year. USMLE scores go up. More of medicine's best and brightest try to go into plastics but the number of spots doesn't increase significantly (it's been ~90 the last several years). It's a fact that average USMLE scores for matched applicants in PRS have been increasing steadily since the inception of the integrated model as a widespread training concept. So your 240+ from 3 years ago doesn't look as good as the 250+'s you're competing against, and it'll look even paler in comparison to the 255-260+'s that next year's class will be rocking, etc.

(3) You have the stigma of "did not match last year." You'll get fewer interviews the second time around, and PD's will wonder what's wrong with you that you failed to match the first time around. It will hurt you in the application process.

All this being said, I do know of one person for whom this worked--but you're talking about one spot out of ~90/year. If you fail to match on your first try in plastics, you aren't doomed but you cannot do anything to put yourself into a "strong position" the second time around when the very fact of there being a second time around is a negative for your app. You're better off trying to do gen surg at a program with a strong plastics department.

 

[Law2Doc]

The fact is that if you don't match in PRS the first time around you have 3 things working against you for the following year:

Your same points are going to be true for all the highly competitive fields. That is the reason people scramble rather than sit out for a year. If you already have research, it's nearly impossible to improve your application and get more competitive. In most cases if you are applying for the uber competitive things, you will already have research and pubs, have taken step 2, and so that simply doesn't give you much room to improve. I've certainly heard of people sitting out of the match and getting more research if they don't have it, but once you enter the match, you are going to have that stigma.

 

[DrDre311]

Your same points are going to be true for all the highly competitive fields. That is the reason people scramble rather than sit out for a year. If you already have research, it's nearly impossible to improve your application and get more competitive. In most cases if you are applying for the uber competitive things, you will already have research and pubs, have taken step 2, and so that simply doesn't give you much room to improve. I've certainly heard of people sitting out of the match and getting more research if they don't have it, but once you enter the match, you are going to have that stigma.

I agree. No way around it. I limited my previous post to plastics because I have a great deal of personal experience with the integrated plastics application process, but I'd be pretty shocked if that experience didn't translate to the derm/rad onc/ortho/[competitive residency X] application process.

 

[mikedc813]

Your same points are going to be true for all the highly competitive fields. That is the reason people scramble rather than sit out for a year. If you already have research, it's nearly impossible to improve your application and get more competitive. In most cases if you are applying for the uber competitive things, you will already have research and pubs, have taken step 2, and so that simply doesn't give you much room to improve. I've certainly heard of people sitting out of the match and getting more research if they don't have it, but once you enter the match, you are going to have that stigma.

While many applicants to these competitive fields have many publications, I'd say that most have 1-2. Additional publications WILL make you more competitive, especially if they are in one of the top journals. Research is going to give you the biggest bang for your buck if you don't match without a doubt. There's not much else you can do.

Keep in mind that scrambling isn't much of an option in some fields. This year there was ONE scramble spot for rad onc. The fields are just too small and the demand too high.

 

[mikedc813]

I agree. No way around it. I limited my previous post to plastics because I have a great deal of personal experience with the integrated plastics application process, but I'd be pretty shocked if that experience didn't translate to the derm/rad onc/ortho/[competitive residency X] application process.

There may be some similarities between integrated plastics and these other fields... I can only speak from a rad onc perspective I guess. Research is ridiculously emphasized, arguably more than any other field at this current time, in the rad onc application process.

 

[Law2Doc]

Keep in mind that scrambling isn't much of an option in some fields. This year there was ONE scramble spot for rad onc. The fields are just too small and the demand too high.

I don't think we are talking about scrambling into your desired competitive field. That is generally impossible. We are talking about if you don't get plastics you scramble into a gen surgery job and hope to get to plastics through a fellowship. Or if you don't get something on the medicine side, scramble to IM.

 

[DrDre311]

There may be some similarities between integrated plastics and these other fields... I can only speak from a rad onc perspective I guess. Research is ridiculously emphasized, arguably more than any other field at this current time, in the rad onc application process.

The average number of "research experiences" for matched applicants for the various fields is available here. In 2007, the average number of "abstracts/presentations/publications" for matched applicants in: derm was 5.7; PRS was 6.0; and rad onc was 6.3. The average number of "research experiences" was 3.4 for PRS and derm and 3.7 for rad onc.

These data include all research self-reported on the ERAS application and are not limited to research done in medical school or field-specific research.

For the last several years, there have been zero scramble spots for PRS and derm. Excluding some residency programs with <10 total spots (such as medicine-family medicine and integrated vascular surgery), the most competitive specialties in order for the 2007 Main Residency Match were, in decreasing order of competitiveness: PRS, derm, ortho, ENT, and rad onc.

Maybe things are a little different in a research-heavy field like rad onc, but the research numbers given by the NRMP were similar across these fields in 2007. I don't have any data or any experience with re-applicants in rad onc, but for PRS and derm, if you don't match the first time, your odds are even worse next time around no matter what you do.

 

[sirus_virus]

I don't think we are talking about scrambling into your desired competitive field. That is generally impossible. We are talking about if you don't get plastics you scramble into a gen surgery job and hope to get to plastics through a fellowship. Or if you don't get something on the medicine side, scramble to IM.

Moral of the story is: unless you are dealing with eggs, scrambling is not a good thing.

In fact check out the dictionary definition of the word scramble:

"to mix together confusedly"

 

[Law2Doc]

Moral of the story is: unless you are dealing with eggs, scrambling is not a good thing.

In fact check out the dictionary definition of the word scramble:

"to mix together confusedly"

Well, I think the point of some of us on this thread is that, while it may not be a good thing, it's still probably better than the alternative, which is to have an unsuccessful match and hope you do better next year. You generally don't do better the second time around, since most people applying to the most competitive specialties are going to have a hard time distinguishing themselves more the next time, since they generally already did a decent amount of research for such fields. Whether you have two publications or 4, it's still not going to overcome the stigma of having not matched the first time out of the chute.

 

[Monica Lewinsky]

it's still probably better than the alternative, which is to have an unsuccessful match and hope you do better next year.

I would disagree. The worst thing you want to do is to scramble into a field that you will be unhappy in. Some fields that would be a 2nd choice specialty are too competitive to match into via the scramble, but would be a probable enough match if you took a year off to try to get in via the regular match.

 

[DrDre311]

I would disagree. The worst thing you want to do is to scramble into a field that you will be unhappy in. Some fields that would be a 2nd choice specialty are too competitive to match into via the scramble, but would be a probable enough match if you took a year off to try to get in via the regular match.

...Nah.

Well, I think the point of some of us on this thread is that, while it may not be a good thing, it [scrambling] is still probably better than the alternative, which is to have an unsuccessful match and hope you do better next year. You generally don't do better the second time around, since most people applying to the most competitive specialties are going to have a hard time distinguishing themselves more the next time, since they generally already did a decent amount of research for such fields. Whether you have two publications or 4, it's still not going to overcome the stigma of having not matched the first time out of the chute.

...Yeah.

(1) Fail to match in PRS-->Prelim surg-->categorical GS-->try for PRS fellowship

(2) Fail to match in derm-->Prelim/categorical medicine-->possible fellowship in a medicine subspecialty

(3) Fail to match in ortho/ENT/uro-->Prelim surg-->categorical GS vs. total 180 on specialty and pick something like gas or path

(4) Fail to match in rad onc-->???

You can substitute "switch to FP" for any of the steps immediately after "fail to match" in [field x].

 

[8744]

very mature.

So is your mother.

 

[DrDre311]

So is your mother.

If by "mature" you mean "hot" then yes. Cfdavid's mom is hot like fire.

 

[Long Dong]

If by "mature" you mean "hot" then yes. Cfdavid's mom is hot like fire.

How would you know, did you put in her boob job, give her her six pack abs lipo, and J-lo glute implants.

 

[DrDre311]

How would you know, did you put in her boob job, give her her six pack abs lipo, and J-lo glute implants.

Nah, she didn't need it. She's hot like a habanero. Lava, smokin' hot. Like the 50-year-old grandma from the Bowflex commercials.

 

[Its_MurDAH]

Nah, she didn't need it. She's hot like a habanero. Lava, smokin' hot. Like the 50-year-old grandma from the Bowflex commercials.

that b1tch is too fine

 

[Monica Lewinsky]

...Nah.



...Yeah.

(1) Fail to match in PRS-->Prelim surg-->categorical GS-->try for PRS fellowship

(2) Fail to match in derm-->Prelim/categorical medicine-->possible fellowship in a medicine subspecialty

(3) Fail to match in ortho/ENT/uro-->Prelim surg-->categorical GS vs. total 180 on specialty and pick something like gas or path

(4) Fail to match in rad onc-->???

You can substitute "switch to FP" for any of the steps immediately after "fail to match" in [field x].

As for #3, are there any spots in gas to scramble into? If not then wouldn't you want to take a year off (I guess after prelim) and do the match during your prelim year rather than going to another specialty that you wouldn't be interested in (assuming ortho and gas would be the only 2 things you'd be happy doing)?

 

[sendwich]

As for #3, are there any spots in gas to scramble into? If not then wouldn't you want to take a year off (I guess after prelim) and do the match during your prelim year rather than going to another specialty that you wouldn't be interested in (assuming ortho and gas would be the only 2 things you'd be happy doing)?

take this with a grain of salt but I know a few M4 at different schools who've had classmates scramble from gen surg to gas this year.

 

[DrDre311]

As for #3, are there any spots in gas to scramble into? If not then wouldn't you want to take a year off (I guess after prelim) and do the match during your prelim year rather than going to another specialty that you wouldn't be interested in (assuming ortho and gas would be the only 2 things you'd be happy doing)?

In 2008, 1328 of 1364 total anesthesia spots were filled. A total of 16 programs had unfilled positions. The raw numbers are available here.

In my previous post I was just illustrating common outcomes for an applicant who failed to match. If you don't match in ortho that doesn't mean you absolutely have to do anesthesia. So nothing I posted was absolute, just common occurrences for people who don't match in certain fields.

My whole point regarding the Match is that if you don't match in one of the super-competitive fields, taking a year off, or doing a prelim year, or whatever, and reapplying usually doesn't really improve your chances because applicants look better on paper with each passing year. But nothing's impossible, so if you're really passionate about a field, then be tenacious and go for it until you've just run out of chances.