MATCH VIOLATOR

[DRHOPE2020]

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[deleted480308]

An fmg with a violation is big hill to climb. I'm sorry

 

[Lostin_space]

Hi guys
Unfortuantely I lost my position in the match for allegly falsfying information on the the program documents after I matched although I told the PD about it in an email before I sent the document and it wan an unintentional mistake and after I reliazed the mistake I told the program about it before they discover, I have proof of all this. NRMP sanctioned me. I am arbitrating with the NRMP. Did anyone had the same experience. did anyone matched after a violation before? how about outside the match program. I know it is really difficult to match after a violationbut what are my options. and what about outside match programs

Thank you

How is it a match violation if you did something inappropriate after the match? I'm confused. Did the program let you go or did the NRMP do something to you? I'm confused. Can you elaborate on what it is that you did?

 

[AdmiralChz]

An fmg with a violation is big hill to climb. I'm sorry

Formal match violations are really quite rare, and it's a major, MAJOR red flag for a US graduate severely limiting his/her options.

Honestly for an FMG, all but rules out using NRMP making getting a residency almost impossible. If you can get it overturned, awesome, but otherwise you'll need to go outside NRMP... No clue how to do that.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

How is it a match violation if you did something inappropriate after the match? I'm confused. Did the program let you go or did the NRMP do something to you? I'm confused. Can you elaborate on what it is that you did?

I matched March 18 after I matched I was charged with a stupid an offense April 1 , I tried to dismiss it (indeed it got dimissed late) however I couldn't do it on time. In May During my hiring phase there was a question about pending criminal charges other than noncrminal violation. I clicked NO however I double checkeck the question on google and I knew it was yes so immediately I discolsed everything to the program director by emails and phones and didn't send the document. I told him what happened and asked him if he wants to dimiss me. After a week I receievd a phone call from the PD asked me in the morning to continue my onbarding paperwork iIsent it and forgot to correct the question and the next day I reliazed my mistake again and called him. Then he accuses me of lying. I have the emails and my phone log and I have proof of disclosure. NRMP sanctioned me for 2 years because of submitting mispresented information druing the application, interview and matching process. I was honest and upfront and the mistake happened after the matching process

 

[DRHOPE2020]

Formal match violations are really quite rare, and it's a major, MAJOR red flag for a US graduate severely limiting his/her options.

Honestly for an FMG, all but rules out using NRMP making getting a residency almost impossible. If you can get it overturned, awesome, but otherwise you'll need to go outside NRMP... No clue how to do that.

I am contesting it however the NRMP are superpower. Please read my explanation I made a mistake and take full responsibility of it and I was upfront and didn't lie. Thank you for your reply

 

[DRHOPE2020]

An fmg with a violation is big hill to climb. I'm sorry

I know thank you for your reply

 

[deleted480308]

I am contesting it however the NRMP are superpower. Please read my explanation I made a mistake and take full responsibility of it and I was upfront and didn't lie. Thank you for your reply

Bear with me because this is a pretty tough punishment they laid out and I don't want to dogpile on you. But you (and a lot of other people facing big punishments) used the phrase "take full responsibility" with the implication that somehow that should be a mitigating factor in your punishment. Sometimes full responsibility is the big harsh punishment. The nrmp doesn't have a million rules but they are extremely clear and firm about the ones they do have, I doubt this gets turned over and for what it's worth I'm sorry.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

Bear with me because this is a pretty tough punishment they laid out and I don't want to dogpile on you. But you (and a lot of other people facing big punishments) used the phrase "take full responsibility" with the implication that somehow that should be a mitigating factor in your punishment. Sometimes full responsibility is the big harsh punishment. The nrmp doesn't have a million rules but they are extremely clear and firm about the ones they do have, I doubt this gets turned over and for what it's worth I'm sorry.

Thank you for your reply. I mean I took full responsibility for the charges after the match. However I didn't do anything durin the application interview matching process. I have been choosen already. They are snactioning me Retrospectively. Anyhow I totally agree with you thanks again.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

Thank you for your reply. I mean I took full responsibility for the charges after the match. However I didn't do anything durin the application interview matching process. I have been choosen already. They are snactioning me Retrospectively. Anyhow I totally agree with you thanks again.

Bear with me because this is a pretty tough punishment they laid out and I don't want to dogpile on you. But you (and a lot of other people facing big punishments) used the phrase "take full responsibility" with the implication that somehow that should be a mitigating factor in your punishment. Sometimes full responsibility is the big harsh punishment. The nrmp doesn't have a million rules but they are extremely clear and firm about the ones they do have, I doubt this gets turned over and for what it's worth I'm sorry.

Another thing I have a job back home in my medical school and they will notify my medical school. I am a jenior faculty memeber. I will be fired backhome to. Thank you

 

[NotAProgDirector]

It is clear that English is not your first language. The story you have recounted here does not add up -- which makes me worry that you have somehow missed something important.

If I understand your story correctly, you applied and matched to a program via the NRMP. Match day was mid march. After the match, you were charged with some offense that you have not disclosed the nature of to us. Then, when asked to complete paperwork for your new program which included a question about pending criminal charges, which you answered "No" to. Then immediately you decided the answer was actually yes, and tried to correct it. Sounds like your PD was going to allow you to correct it, but then you "forgot" to correct it, and then they terminated you for lying, and you got a match violation.

Somehow, you're missing some important details:

1. You claim this charge was a "stupid offense". But obviously it must be serious enough to be reported. If you were asked if there were any pending charges against you, I find it hard to believe that you could "forget" about them, or that you decided that they were just "stupid" and didn't need to be reported.

2. It sounds like your PD gave you a second chance, and then you managed to screw it up again? That you "forgot" to include it after you furiously tried to undo your prior mistake? I find this very hard to believe. How could you forget, after getting a second chance to address the problem you forgot/ignored this first time?

3. Per your timeline, all of this occurred after the match. In that case, I don't see how the NRMP would get involved, or how you could be found to be a violator. You enrolled in the match and played by the rules. You totally screwed up the onboarding process for your new program, and they are in their full rights to "unhire" you over it. They would need to apply for a "match waiver" -- official permission from the NRMP to not hire you despite your match. I had the same issue when one of my incoming interns failed their drug test. But this doesn't cause you to be a match violator.

In order to get a match violation, something you did before the match must be the problem. If you lied about this in your actual application, then that could get you sanctions. But then your whole timeline is off.

And why exactly are we talking about this now, in November? The NRMP usually investigates things much faster than this, if this was last March/April.

 

[gutonc]

There are so many incongruous issues here that it's impossible to give you any useful advice. As usual, aPD pointed out essentially all of them.

Either be honest with us or be gone.

 

[LucidSplash]

Hi guys
Unfortuantely I lost my position in the match for allegly falsfying information on the the program documents after I matched although I told the PD about it in an email before I sent the document and it wan an unintentional mistake and after I reliazed the mistake I told the program about it before they discover, I have proof of all this. NRMP sanctioned me. I am arbitrating with the NRMP. Did anyone had the same experience. did anyone matched after a violation before? how about outside the match program. I know it is really difficult to match after a violationbut what are my options. and what about outside match programs

Thank you

My understanding of being labelled a match violator means that no institution that participates in the match can hire you, even outside the match. Which is why it is such a serious thing. They essentially prevent you from being able to do an end-run around them. The programs would face sanctions including not being able to participate in the match next year or several years. So finding a spot outside the match will not work.

 

[Psai]

It is clear that English is not your first language. The story you have recounted here does not add up -- which makes me worry that you have somehow missed something important.

If I understand your story correctly, you applied and matched to a program via the NRMP. Match day was mid march. After the match, you were charged with some offense that you have not disclosed the nature of to us. Then, when asked to complete paperwork for your new program which included a question about pending criminal charges, which you answered "No" to. Then immediately you decided the answer was actually yes, and tried to correct it. Sounds like your PD was going to allow you to correct it, but then you "forgot" to correct it, and then they terminated you for lying, and you got a match violation.

Somehow, you're missing some important details:

1. You claim this charge was a "stupid offense". But obviously it must be serious enough to be reported. If you were asked if there were any pending charges against you, I find it hard to believe that you could "forget" about them, or that you decided that they were just "stupid" and didn't need to be reported.

2. It sounds like your PD gave you a second chance, and then you managed to screw it up again? That you "forgot" to include it after you furiously tried to undo your prior mistake? I find this very hard to believe. How could you forget, after getting a second chance to address the problem you forgot/ignored this first time?

3. Per your timeline, all of this occurred after the match. In that case, I don't see how the NRMP would get involved, or how you could be found to be a violator. You enrolled in the match and played by the rules. You totally screwed up the onboarding process for your new program, and they are in their full rights to "unhire" you over it. They would need to apply for a "match waiver" -- official permission from the NRMP to not hire you despite your match. I had the same issue when one of my incoming interns failed their drug test. But this doesn't cause you to be a match violator.

In order to get a match violation, something you did before the match must be the problem. If you lied about this in your actual application, then that could get you sanctions. But then your whole timeline is off.

And why exactly are we talking about this now, in November? The NRMP usually investigates things much faster than this, if this was last March/April.

Nice.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

It is clear that English is not your first language. The story you have recounted here does not add up -- which makes me worry that you have somehow missed something important.

If I understand your story correctly, you applied and matched to a program via the NRMP. Match day was mid march. After the match, you were charged with some offense that you have not disclosed the nature of to us. Then, when asked to complete paperwork for your new program which included a question about pending criminal charges, which you answered "No" to. Then immediately you decided the answer was actually yes, and tried to correct it. Sounds like your PD was going to allow you to correct it, but then you "forgot" to correct it, and then they terminated you for lying, and you got a match violation.

Somehow, you're missing some important details:

1. You claim this charge was a "stupid offense". But obviously it must be serious enough to be reported. If you were asked if there were any pending charges against you, I find it hard to believe that you could "forget" about them, or that you decided that they were just "stupid" and didn't need to be reported.

2. It sounds like your PD gave you a second chance, and then you managed to screw it up again? That you "forgot" to include it after you furiously tried to undo your prior mistake? I find this very hard to believe. How could you forget, after getting a second chance to address the problem you forgot/ignored this first time?

3. Per your timeline, all of this occurred after the match. In that case, I don't see how the NRMP would get involved, or how you could be found to be a violator. You enrolled in the match and played by the rules. You totally screwed up the onboarding process for your new program, and they are in their full rights to "unhire" you over it. They would need to apply for a "match waiver" -- official permission from the NRMP to not hire you despite your match. I had the same issue when one of my incoming interns failed their drug test. But this doesn't cause you to be a match violator.

In order to get a match violation, something you did before the match must be the problem. If you lied about this in your actual application, then that could get you sanctions. But then your whole timeline is off.

And why exactly are we talking about this now, in November? The NRMP usually investigates things much faster than this, if this was last March/April.

Thank you very much Sir for your reply. I am in the middle of Arbitration and I will discolse with you the nature of charges it was misdemeanor (i mean by stupid that it was stupid mistake) i am not hiding anything.
I match March 18
Charges March 28 (10 days after I match)
Hired a lawyer April 1st
I got my licensw April 13
May 23 received secondary paper work asking if there is pending crminial charges other than non criminal violation I locked at the police report it says misdemeanor offense in my language offense is different than a crime. I signed no and scanned the document however I had a bad feeling about that question I googled it and then I found it should be yes. So immediately I emailed the PD. didn't correct and didn't send the document yet. Then called the PD and told him I am sorry and I am ready to be dimissed. He emailed me and told me your situation is being disscued with HR and legal department.

June 1st he called me in the morning to continue my paper work ( that I have signed but not sent week before) and was with me on the phone and asked to sent it quickly. I sent it and the next day i realized I didn't correct the question because I wasn't anticipating he will ask me to continue my paperwork.
That is the whole story.

You are right I have the onboarding process was the problem, my lawyer says NRMP has no right to sanction you retrospectively, because you entered the match and came out the match as a fair game and I really screwed everything after the match.

I have emails, phone logs and everything however The NRMP decided to sanction me as a match violator.

The whole issue was after the match i never lied before the match about anything this is the true story I swear. i have never been arrested before or lied about anything.

 

[gutonc]

I'm going to assume that I understand what you're saying here, and that the timeline is legit. This is not a Match violation. The PD may choose not to bring you, but you haven't violated the Match agreement.

The simple fact that you're posting this 6 months into your intern year (and 8 months after this appears to have been an issue) however makes me suspicious.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

I'm going to assume that I understand what you're saying here, and that the timeline is legit. This is not a Match violation. The PD may choose not to bring you, but you haven't violated the Match agreement.

The simple fact that you're posting this 6 months into your intern year (and 8 months after this appears to have been an issue) however makes me suspicious.

Thank you very much

The violation report was issued in August and I am going for Arbitration. I contested the decision. I am just trying to see your opnion about my situation before I go for hearing at arbitration. In addition I was extremely depressed about the whole situation.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

I also just knew this forum couple of days ago I just registered. So that is why I posted late. And my arbitration hearing is on progress.

Thank you all for your reply.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

When you say "Arbitration", I don't know if you mean with your program, or with the NRMP. Your program can certainly decline to hire you over how you handled the situation.

If you're contesting the NRMP decision, life is more complicated. At first, my answer was the same as above, I can't see how this is an NRMP violation. But, looking more closely at the NRMP match guidelines, it's possible.

The main statement in the agreement pertaining to this issue is this one:

4.4 Completeness, Timeliness, and Accuracy of Information -- Applicants are responsible for the completeness, timeliness, and accuracy of the information provided to programs. The submission of information by an applicant during the interview and/or matching process that is false, misleading, incomplete, or plagiarized from another source is a violation of this Agreement.

We all would agree that if you were untruthful prior to the match itself, there's no question this would be an NRMP violation. But since the event occurred after the match, I would assume it wasn't. But herein lies the issue -- when is the "match process" over? Is it match day/week? Or is it July 1, when contracts should all start? It's not clear. The match agreement includes a "schedule of dates", and the last date on the schedule is 7/1. So if the NRMP considers the entire onboarding process as part of the match process, then they can hold this issue as a match violation.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

The date schedule ends March 18 and here is a definition of matching process

It is until the applicant either match or exhauste his list and when match is complete all tentive match becomes final

 

[DRHOPE2020]

When you say "Arbitration", I don't know if you mean with your program, or with the NRMP. Your program can certainly decline to hire you over how you handled the situation.

If you're contesting the NRMP decision, life is more complicated. At first, my answer was the same as above, I can't see how this is an NRMP violation. But, looking more closely at the NRMP match guidelines, it's possible.

The main statement in the agreement pertaining to this issue is this one:


We all would agree that if you were untruthful prior to the match itself, there's no question this would be an NRMP violation. But since the event occurred after the match, I would assume it wasn't. But herein lies the issue -- when is the "match process" over? Is it match day/week? Or is it July 1, when contracts should all start? It's not clear. The match agreement includes a "schedule of dates", and the last date on the schedule is 7/1. So if the NRMP considers the entire onboarding process as part of the match process, then they can hold this issue as a match violation.

Thank you very much sir I mean Arbitration with NRMP not the program, I have been dimissed already. In section 1 of the agreement it says that the match results ends in Friday 1 pm. It is an uphill battle I know but I was truthful and I disclosed my issue by emails and I don't what is the outcome. However I don't have any options except Arbitration. It is plain text contract, and the onboarding process is different from the matching process, my lawyer says there is no assumptions here what is written is written if it is one process so that means all the people who go for the match will be hired or will go through the onboarding process.
In addition if you download the final match results from the NRMP website you will find the official announcement of the match results with a definiton of matching process at the third page. If this the results of the matching process, we are not matching anymore after the match.
I will let you all know my results of this arbitration, I am in a mess. My scores are 250s and I lost everything.
In addition the term misleading or false has legal definitions there is different between mistake and misleading in the legal point of view. So if I disclosed something proven by emails there is no intention of misleading. Lets see what happens. Thanks again sir and it was all after the match not before.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

One more question, the offer was withdrawn before I join the program, that means I was terminated officially ?? Is it on my record? I am asking this because of future questions in many forms. Is it termination or withdrawn offer?

 

[DRHOPE2020]

Any options if the violation is upheld on me after arbitration?? Or any advice??
Do out of match programs look at applicant match history from the NRMP, they are around 20 programs IM out of match?

Thanks again

 

[Doctor Bob]

my lawyer says NRMP has no right to sanction you retrospectively...

What I'm curious about is, if you have a lawyer, why are you asking this question here? While we have various degrees of knowledge of the NRMP process, (to the best of my knowledge) none of us are healthcare contract lawyers.

 

[deleted480308]

What I'm curious about is, if you have a lawyer, why are you asking this question here? While we have various degrees of knowledge of the NRMP process, (to the best of my knowledge) none of us are healthcare contract lawyers.

And NOOOOO lawyer would send you to SDN

 

[NotAProgDirector]

In section 1 of the agreement it says that the match results ends in Friday 1 pm.

Actually, no. The schedule of dates is here: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2017-Main-Residency-Match-Calendar-Apps.pdf The last date listed is June 30, when the system closes. Everyone would agree that refusing to take your match spot in May would be a match violation, and that happens after match day. So it's not so clear. This is why a lawyer might be helpful.

I can't comment on "mistake" vs "untruthful".

One more question, the offer was withdrawn before I join the program, that means I was terminated officially ?? Is it on my record? I am asking this because of future questions in many forms. Is it termination or withdrawn offer?

No. If you fail in the onboarding process, you're not terminated. It's like you were never hired. Some applications ask if you were ever denied / refused / failed to gain privileges when applying for a position -- and that question you'd need to answer yes.

Any options if the violation is upheld on me after arbitration?? Or any advice??
Do out of match programs look at applicant match history from the NRMP, they are around 20 programs IM out of match?

If they are out of the match, they won't care about your match history. But you should tread carefully. They are probably out of the match for a reason.

 

[bannie22]

Thats unfortunate

Seemed like your would be PD screwed you by accepting your apology then going back on his word and blaming you

This isnt really the correct place to be seeking advice I would get in touch with a lawyer and share with him your story and the documentation you have collected

I feel sorry for you but these things happen not infrequently. I wish you all the best in coming to the ideal resolution but I would consider other options now because as other posters have stated it seems like your odds for residencies is now very slim

 

[DRHOPE2020]

Actually, no. The schedule of dates is here: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/2017-Main-Residency-Match-Calendar-Apps.pdf The last date listed is June 30, when the system closes. Everyone would agree that refusing to take your match spot in May would be a match violation, and that happens after match day. So it's not so clear. This is why a lawyer might be helpful.

This list is for the 2017 Match they updated it the previous 2016 Match didn't have any extra dates after March 18. As I showed you. It is still a gray zone.

I can't comment on "mistake" vs "untruthful".

I know sir, I should have corrected the question but I didn't know he will ask me to submit the document I though he will dismiss me. It is so crazy that I discolsed the issue the same day I amswered No and submitted the document a week after.



No. If you fail in the onboarding process, you're not terminated. It's like you were never hired. Some applications ask if you were ever denied / refused / failed to gain privileges when applying for a position -- and that question you'd need to answer yes.



If they are out of the match, they won't care about your match history. But you should tread carefully. They are probably out of the match for a reason.

Thank you sir for your helpful answers. I will get back to this form after the Arbitration and tell you my experience. I hope I pass this and all resident learn a lesson for my situation.

Please everyone read the NRMP contract before the match, it is important in order not to be in trouble like me. I even didn't know there is a contract !! I know it seems unrealistic and funny however if you ask many IMG and some AMG they are not aware about the contract.

 

[DRHOPE2020]

Thats unfortunate

Seemed like your would be PD screwed you by accepting your apology then going back on his word and blaming you

This isnt really the correct place to be seeking advice I would get in touch with a lawyer and share with him your story and the documentation you have collected

I feel sorry for you but these things happen not infrequently. I wish you all the best in coming to the ideal resolution but I would consider other options now because as other posters have stated it seems like your odds for residencies is now very slim

Thank you very much for your answer. I was trying to see if anyone had a smiliar experience like me before.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thats unfortunate

Seemed like your would be PD screwed you by accepting your apology then going back on his word and blaming you

This isnt really the correct place to be seeking advice I would get in touch with a lawyer and share with him your story and the documentation you have collected

I feel sorry for you but these things happen not infrequently. I wish you all the best in coming to the ideal resolution but I would consider other options now because as other posters have stated it seems like your odds for residencies is now very slim

1. he's mentioned several times already that he has an attorney.

2.this does not happen frequently.


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