Matching back to Residency from Australia to Canada

[WolfLarson]

According to this chart, it shows that 61% of people who study in Australia manage to match back in Canada. That is pretty good odds. What is the general consensus of people about coming back to Canada from Australia to do something like general surgery? Is it difficult to match gen surg coming from Australia back to Canada? What about the chances from places like Ireland (41%) or Carribbean (20%)?

http://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Table_50_IMGs_by_Region_of_Graduation_English.pdf

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[Domperidone]

You're looking at skew.
Gyn Gyn mentioned this in another thread. I can definitely attest to this based on my own medical school's classes. we kept track as a cohort for each other and subsequent students.

that's 61% of people who even got to the point of applying. As in, did the exams, had competitive scores, did some research for more compeitive things, did their away rotations and got LORs. then did interviews. it can take years to accumulate all those things. It's another 20-30 k out of pocket. you have less than a 2/3 chance given all that work to get an offer. Majority of those offers will be in rural family med and rural IM. not surgery. very, very few will match into surgery. And all of that work, outside of regular medical studies, medical school rotations and exams.

it's highly skewed in Australia right now because a lot of people used to be able to stay behind in Australia.
As i mentioned in another thread. there was that option to not even apply back home (wherever home is) if you didn't have the application together and stay in Australia. and previously, majority of international students couldn't even get to point of applying - at some point they had red flags or gave up on taking the boards.

it's not a joke, preparing for 8hr long board exams that can take a year to prepare for (the Australian system is not set up for you to succeed on American or Canadian boards) and then flying to North America to sit a live exam. Electives are not easy to organize either, and easily take up a year ahead of time to arrange. not to imply that you're being flippant about the situation, but based on your post, I can't detect if you're taking this seriously or just starry eyed by a statistic without considering how arduous the effort is going to be.

if you're will to take the risk, and be okay with having FM or IM as fall back, then so be it. take the risk, in knowing what other SDN posters have told you now. It's a lot of work for settling for something you either don't want or care for.

you have to be really desperate to become a doctor to settle for the offshore option, truly want it more than anything, and be okay with whatever comes your way. I wish there was a kinder way to say this, but when comes to residency - beggars can't be choosers if you're an IMG (as in, someone with a foreign medical degree attempting to compete with local grads for residency - even if it is within your home country). You're not really entitled to being entitled. Remarkably, there are going to be resilient, flexible individuals about this, where none of this will bother them as long as they can practice medicine in some form, somewhere - but is that going to be you?

If you want choice, you have to work harder now to get into something onshore. Something in North America.

but there is a strong chance you will not get surgery if you go offshore. that is already odds stacked against you from the beginning. that said, considering you're premed, rotations may change your mind later. have you shadowed a surgeon?

 

[WolfLarson]

You're looking at skew.
Gyn Gyn mentioned this in another thread. I can definitely attest to this based on my own medical school's classes. we kept track as a cohort for each other and subsequent students.

that's 61% of people who even got to the point of applying. As in, did the exams, had competitive scores, did some research for more compeitive things, did their away rotations and got LORs. then did interviews. it can take years to accumulate all those things. It's another 20-30 k out of pocket. you have less than a 2/3 chance given all that work to get an offer. Majority of those offers will be in rural family med and rural IM. not surgery. very, very few will match into surgery.

it's highly skewed in Australia right now because a lot of people used to be able to stay behind in Australia.
As i mentioned in another thread. there was that option to not even apply if you didn't have the application together, which previously - majority couldn't even get to point of applying. it's not a joke, preparing for 8hr long board exams that can take a year to prepare for (the Australian system is not set up for you to succeed on American or Canadian boards) and then flying to North America to sit a live exam. not to imply that you're being flippant about the situation, but based on your post, I can't detect if you're taking this seriously or just starry eyed by a statistic without considering how arduous the effort is going to be.

if you're will to take the risk, and be okay with having FM or IM as fall back, then so be it. take the risk, in knowing what other posters on SDN have told you. but there is a chance you will not get surgery. that said, considering you're premed, rotations may change your mind later. have you shadowed a surgeon?

Thanks for your post.

What do you mean by 'had competitive scores'? I was under the impression that to study in Canada one needs to pass the MCQEE and nobody really looks at scores for it?

Also, why does one need to do all of those things you listed to get into Canada from Australia? And how long does it take to accumulate a complete package (assuming I start from day 1 at an australian school concentrating on returning to Canada)?

I am seriously considering my options right now, because I am too late to apply to US MD this cycle, my MCAT scores are coming out Tuesday but I don't think I did well given how my practice exams were, and will probably be applying DO.

I have not shadowed a surgeon. I have no idea how to go about it. Any tips?

 

[Domperidone]

lol. they do look at scores. they look at everything.
most programs aren't going to know you or your offshore school if you choose to go to one. All they have is the paperwork. And a brief window into the live version of you that is the interview - if you get to this stage.

shadowing doctors is often a requisite for building up your north american applications for medical school. phone around or email. it may take many tries, but some clinician will come to expect it. but you have to go out and ask. it's no different to how you organize your overseas electives as a medical student later. there's no magical system half the time, it's just. literally asking around. taking a leap of faith. you'll want the mentoring that comes with it if you have a good connection with the people you shadow.

lol something i never want to hear. 'it's too late to apply.' or that you simply can't wait anohter year. well, if you want the easy way out, sure apply now. but you make your life harder with matching in Norht America later if that is your intent on graduation. it's only delaying the hard part. and you may be forced to sit out a year anyway if you don't match the first year out of med school. which does happen.

*face palm.
what do you mean why do people need all these things?
sorry I forget you're premed. of course it hasn't really occurred to you before. barely any premeds can focus beyond just the getting into medical school part.

partly, that is simply how the system is.
I don't even have an opinion on whether it is 'right or wrong', it just is, and has been, for ages.

And for any competitive specialty, the process of apply is no different for local CMGs or AMGs at home, everyone goes through this. it's not merely a list of things for off shore students to match back home to Canada or the USA - everyone goes through this. but yes, stakes are higher for IMGs - because no one in that residency program will know you or your school - no one can account for your reliability in looking after their patients. whereas it's easier for local grads to match into FM or IM - relatively.

Remember - we're talking about lives in the communities surrounding whatever hospital/program that hires you - it's not your average set of work responsibilities.

 

[WolfLarson]

lol. they do look at scores. they look at everything.
most programs aren't going to know you or your offshore school if you choose to go to one. All they have is the paperwork. And a brief window into the live version of you that is the interview - if you get to this stage.

shadowing doctors is often a requisite for building up your north american applications for medical school. phone around or email. it may take many tries, but some clinician will come to expect it. but you have to go out and ask. it's no different to how you organize your overseas electives as a medical student later. there's no magical system half the time, it's just. literally asking around. taking a leap of faith. you'll want the mentoring that comes with it if you have a good connection with the people you shadow.

lol something i never want to hear. 'it's too late to apply.' or that you simply can't wait anohter year. well, if you want the easy way out, sure apply now. but you make your life harder with matching in Norht America later if that is your intent on graduation. it's only delaying the hard part. and you may be forced to sit out a year anyway if you don't match the first year out of med school. which does happen.

*face palm.
what do you mean why do people need all these things?
sorry I forget you're premed. of course it hasn't really occurred to you before. barely any premeds can focus beyond just the getting into medical school part.

partly, that is simply how the system is.
I don't even have an opinion on whether it is 'right or wrong', it just is, and has been, for ages.

And for any competitive specialty, the process of apply is no different for local CMGs or AMGs at home, everyone goes through this. it's not merely a list of things for off shore students to match back home to Canada or the USA - everyone goes through this. but yes, stakes are higher for IMGs - because no one in that residency program will know you or your school - no one can account for your reliability in looking after their patients. whereas it's easier for local grads to match into FM or IM - relatively.

Remember - we're talking about lives in the communities surrounding whatever hospital/program that hires you - it's not your average set of work responsibilities.

Thanks for the post! Can you elaborate more on what you mean by taking the 'easy way out by applying now'?

 

[Domperidone]

As in you apply to Australia broadly, I guarantee you will get in. In terms of acceptances or offers, it's no different to the Carib or any other offshore school. It's very simple, they need your tuition. They choose not to be selective. they care less about what happens to you after grad or if you fail. You're there, because you pay to be.

It's relatively harder to put together an application within North America. It's more competitive - because they are more selective and choose to be. the match rate of their grads is 93-99% at home (and majority if not all will apply to home programs) and home programs try to keep their own students that they know and molded.

Again, if you want choices and want entitlement, it's worth waiting another cycle and building your application or resume further. If you don't care, then apply offshore - like I said, you will get into an Australian school. Many don't do interviews, some don't even care if you have an undergrad degree or any prereqs. just that you can pay their tuition fees.

If you want academic programs later - you'll be continually doing research in residency, doing more board exams while working and collecting referees all the same for fellowship. Unless you do family med.

Med school is not a means to an end, it's only the beginning.