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I'm thinking working through your labor is not that common though
Maternity Leave
Started by bd1987
Well not active labor, but people often keep doing whatever they're doing in early labor. And if pregnant women dropped everything whenever they had contractions, they could lose weeks and weeks of work.
The story has her working through her active labor so I guess I wasn't precise in my wording. And the floor calls I think were supposedly post delivery.
My co-chief operated while having acute appendicitis but before it was diagnosed (she got the scan faster than she thought she would so had one chole left that the or people wouldn't let her do once they found out she was added on to follow it). This was after we graduated and she was in private practice. She also rounded the next day prior to being dced (she changed into scrubs at least)
No offense to you surgery people, but it is downright ridiculous that people are expected (or expect it of themselves) to round on their patients while they, themselves, are still a patient. Absurd.
I fail to see what's wrong with going back to work on POD #1 if you feel up to it.
I've had plenty of patients do so because they felt well enough and I did so myself (during residency after a lap salpingectomy; the only reasons I didn't after my carpal tunnel a couple of years ago was 1) external sutures visible to patients; 2) had scheduled the week off for a conference which was cancelled due to Hurricane Sandy so my schedule was empty anyway).
I've had plenty of patients do so because they felt well enough and I did so myself (during residency after a lap salpingectomy; the only reasons I didn't after my carpal tunnel a couple of years ago was 1) external sutures visible to patients; 2) had scheduled the week off for a conference which was cancelled due to Hurricane Sandy so my schedule was empty anyway).
i told her she was crazy when she told me the story
I think when you calm down, you'll really regret saying this when you read this over again. I truly can't believe you think no female should have children during the course of residency, surgical or otherwise. And the first several weeks after delivering a baby is not a vacation. Your attitude is the exact stereotypical female surgeon demeanor I was so afraid of becoming.
I am very much pro-choice, but you would purposefully abort your child just because you are in residency?
Promise?
William Halsted (of which residency training came from) was also a cocaine addict. Not the best person to model things as to how residency should be in the 21st century, don't you think?
I'd terminate because I don't want to delay graduation if there's unforseen complications, and because i just don't think I could do both.
Not that I think anyone should, but i would choose to not.
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That demeanor somewhat stems from being unfairly judged as someone likely to take a bunch of time off and not focus on work because we are going to pop out a bunch of kids (plus old school guys thinking we just can't do the job as well as they can). So i can see why the op might be super bitter if these ladies are doing those very things without even acknowledging it makes more work for everyone else. Does that excuse saying that no one should ever have kids in residency? No, but sometimes sdn is a nice place to vent about stuff you can't really bitch about in person precisely because you are going to be judged for it. I mean does anyone really care when people judge them here (other than the initial annoyance of course)?
I'll take back what I said then. Still think it's weird though: The few programs whose contracts I've seen have always just been generic contracts from the GME office that were the same for every program. Everyone had the same pay, benefits, sick leave, maternity leave, policy on jury duty, whatever it was... for all the residents whether they were surgery, IM, psych, or anything else. I'll believe that some surgery programs carve out their own, but would still hope that no one is operating while projectile vomiting from both ends simultaneously.
Active emesis, no-too hard to keep it out of the field. Recent, possibly. All bets are off for diarrhea.
Most of those things are standardized regardless of the residency.
However vacation time, CME, book funds, and sick leave, which are not legally mandated, was up to each department's discretion. We also had one week less vacation that most of the other departments.
I guess while I don't agree with the OPs sentiment entirely (that residents shouldn't have kids, or that residents get pregnant to 'sit on their ass' for 6 weeks, or that maternity leave is the same as vacation, etc.), I see the point she is trying to make: if people leave for maternity leave, the remaining residents are left to pick up the pieces and cover all the responsibilities that would normally go to that resident.
It's one thing if it's days/clinic/etc, but to cover extra NF (does this mean that the resident on maternity leave has 2/4/6 weeks less of NF than everybody else upon returning) seems excessive. In addition there are extra calls that OP will (at least in OP's mind) have to take over for the resident on maternity leave. Is the resident on maternity leave planning on paying back at least the extra call days that OP will be forced to do? Is the extra NF schedule balanced between all of OP's co-residents (at least within the same PGY)?
I would say for the OP, being a single woman who has no kids (and it sounds like multiple people, if not all others, in her program have had children during this residency), it seems discriminatory AGAINST her (she who has birthed no child) to have to do extra cover when other residents who took time off for maternity leave are now back and able.
Any concern about systematic discrimination against OP because she is a woman without kids? Maybe the PD has a bunch of kids and is super understanding to all the new parents popping up in the residency - I get that. I really do. But is it fair to unilaterally dump on (possibly) the 1 person who doesn't have kids within the residency program? I mean if there's some sort of trade of - Increased vacation time for OP, increased compensation (at least the 2 weeks the program doesn't have to pay the resident on maternity leave)
Especially in a residency where resident coverage is absolutely necessary. Part of the reason I'm glad that 1) I'm not going into a surgical sub-specialty and more importantly 2) attendings can function ON THEIR OWN, without having resident coverage 100% of the time, in the field I'm entering.
OP - Question for you. How many residents per year in this program? If > 2 (meaning you have more than 1 co-resident in the same year as you), did all remaining residents in the same PGY get equal (increased) amounts of NF (or did you at least some other consideration, like more vacation, more clinic or weekend-off rotations)? I'm sorry that the others are not being appreciative for the sacrifices you are making.
In regards to leaving early and stuff for people with kids, seems like your PD is just going to let it remain the status quo. While this sucks and is likely a main reason you're venting, residency is temporary, and stuff like this isn't where you should really make a stand IMO.
It's one thing if it's days/clinic/etc, but to cover extra NF (does this mean that the resident on maternity leave has 2/4/6 weeks less of NF than everybody else upon returning) seems excessive. In addition there are extra calls that OP will (at least in OP's mind) have to take over for the resident on maternity leave. Is the resident on maternity leave planning on paying back at least the extra call days that OP will be forced to do? Is the extra NF schedule balanced between all of OP's co-residents (at least within the same PGY)?
I would say for the OP, being a single woman who has no kids (and it sounds like multiple people, if not all others, in her program have had children during this residency), it seems discriminatory AGAINST her (she who has birthed no child) to have to do extra cover when other residents who took time off for maternity leave are now back and able.
Any concern about systematic discrimination against OP because she is a woman without kids? Maybe the PD has a bunch of kids and is super understanding to all the new parents popping up in the residency - I get that. I really do. But is it fair to unilaterally dump on (possibly) the 1 person who doesn't have kids within the residency program? I mean if there's some sort of trade of - Increased vacation time for OP, increased compensation (at least the 2 weeks the program doesn't have to pay the resident on maternity leave)
Especially in a residency where resident coverage is absolutely necessary. Part of the reason I'm glad that 1) I'm not going into a surgical sub-specialty and more importantly 2) attendings can function ON THEIR OWN, without having resident coverage 100% of the time, in the field I'm entering.
OP - Question for you. How many residents per year in this program? If > 2 (meaning you have more than 1 co-resident in the same year as you), did all remaining residents in the same PGY get equal (increased) amounts of NF (or did you at least some other consideration, like more vacation, more clinic or weekend-off rotations)? I'm sorry that the others are not being appreciative for the sacrifices you are making.
In regards to leaving early and stuff for people with kids, seems like your PD is just going to let it remain the status quo. While this sucks and is likely a main reason you're venting, residency is temporary, and stuff like this isn't where you should really make a stand IMO.
^^^This. It is my belief that a child needs to be with its mother full time until old enough for school. I find it very disturbing that people intentionally have children only to hand them over to daycare asap. Your child should be the most prized thing in your life if you want a family, and it's peculiar how people are willing to hand over the most important thing in their life to minimum wage caregivers. People are willing to put their life on hold to endure residency, but the idea of putting ones career on hold to build a family has become anathema. Residency is an absolutely inappropriate time to start a family. It's an inconvenient fact. Of course, I find myself biting my tongue frequently because my 'old-fashioned' opinion is so poorly received these days. It's kind of rammed down our throat that we are automatically supposed to accept the idea of strategic family building among resident-resident couples as the norm and we must be sexist dinosaurs if we think women can't or shouldn't raise children and work 80 hrs a week at the same time. At some point I think people have to choose what's more important to them in life, and if having a family is that important, then maybe that 11 year supersubspecialty training track is the wrong career choice.
I don't think any of us are going to judge a female colleague who is struggling with an accidental pregnancy and we will bend over backwards to try and help her through the difficulties of having children in residency. But there is a very big difference between that and someone who chooses to undergo a very long residency with the intention from the very beginning of having multiple children throughout it without any support at home regardless of the ramifications to the program, her colleagues, her personal health, and to her children. If this makes me a sexist, so be it.
would you be satisfied if the father stayed home with the kid full time instead of mom? If so then not sexist.
Yes. The main problem I have is when both parents work crazy hours and never seen their children and think this is an acceptable way to raise a family, especially young children.
I feel that way too. I mean it generally has to be mom having the kid (although adoption and surrogacy wouldn't involve that) and for me I would want to be really involved even if i wasn't staying at home full time, but dad can bond with and raise a child too which some people tend to ignore. We had a guy with several kids and someone once said something that was meant as an insult towards him "he always wants to go home when the work is done". I thought that was absurd because here is a guy doing a surgical residency but still trying to be involved in his kids life. But for the most part he was liked because even when he took paternity leave when his youngest was born he tried to minimize the effect on others by getting scheduled for something where his presence was less missed and by not just acting entitled if he needed to leave early for something with his kids. And he paid stuff like that back in whatever way he could.
I LOLd when I read that. Such a surgical thing to say and is word for word a complaint made about me when I was an intern.
Carry on...
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I am sure someone said it about me at some point too. Given the choice between violating hours and staying for a case post call or letting another resident have it I usually let them have it (I am talking about countable cases that were worth doing, not that I dumped crap on them).
Mine wasn't about violating work hours (since that wasn't a thing yet) but rather wanting to go home to my naked BF. 😛
This thread is unbelievable. OP if and when you have kids, you will have support from the rest of us who have them. We won't shut you out. But I hope you don't beat yourself up too much when you realize how ridiculous you sounded in this thread.
Except her demeanor goes beyond just that, like the kid barfing comment and the PPD #4 comment of a resident showing her baby, never mind the occupied uterus comment.
All true and why I advocate procreating as a trainee. You can't give people back time, most won't forgive you so you might as well do it to people you don't intend to work with in the future. Then you can tell your prospective partners that you have older kids. They won't care how you got there.
I've been following this thread with some interest, as this happens not infrequently. On an anonymous forum, people can be honest about their feelings and concerns.
In my experience, there are two ends of a spectrum here. Some residents who need maternity leave bend over backwards to rearrange their schedules such that no one is inconvenienced. They front load their schedule with more call / work, so that when they go out on leave it isn't a big problem. At the other end, I've had residents come to me to tell me they were taking maternity leave with the attitude that it's basically my problem as the employer to sort it out -- which is 100% true. Those residents end up creating a bunch of bitterness and unhappiness. I warn them about this, and then they are surprised when they can't find anyone to help cover their schedule for a meeting or an interview.
However, after a resident has children and returns from leave, they then can't just miss work because their kid is ill at daycare. Well, actually, they probably can because they can (potentially) claim it as FMLA time -- but that should usually be unpaid and every missed day gets tacked onto their training. We're clear with residents (and with faculty) that they need a backup plan if their child is ill, and usually a backup to the backup. Reliability is an important trait in a physician -- despite changes in the profession that might argue otherwise, we are not interchangeable widgets (in most fields) where continuity is important.
In my experience, there are two ends of a spectrum here. Some residents who need maternity leave bend over backwards to rearrange their schedules such that no one is inconvenienced. They front load their schedule with more call / work, so that when they go out on leave it isn't a big problem. At the other end, I've had residents come to me to tell me they were taking maternity leave with the attitude that it's basically my problem as the employer to sort it out -- which is 100% true. Those residents end up creating a bunch of bitterness and unhappiness. I warn them about this, and then they are surprised when they can't find anyone to help cover their schedule for a meeting or an interview.
However, after a resident has children and returns from leave, they then can't just miss work because their kid is ill at daycare. Well, actually, they probably can because they can (potentially) claim it as FMLA time -- but that should usually be unpaid and every missed day gets tacked onto their training. We're clear with residents (and with faculty) that they need a backup plan if their child is ill, and usually a backup to the backup. Reliability is an important trait in a physician -- despite changes in the profession that might argue otherwise, we are not interchangeable widgets (in most fields) where continuity is important.
Sounds right. Are you an attending yet? Cause at least in the .mil, my fellow attendings f-ed me way more than any fellow.
I meant support parent to parent. Her posts make being a parent sound like a cake walk, and that paired with being a physician it is anything but. I would hope any physician parent would not screw anyone over as you put it. But that wasn't really what I meant any way.
Phrasing...
I find this forum disheartening ... this is an example of what i think is wrong with medicine ... ... ... Women should be able to have a career in medicine and a family ... ... Should they really delay having a family for 3-7 years just because of the "old boys club" mentality still existent in medicine?? Life it short and employers and coworkers trying to convince a woman not to have kids while under their employment is disgusting... i'm not going to get pregnant anytime soon and that is my choice, but i feel that i am in a very supportive program that would not hold it against me if i did, and for that i am thankful.
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This strikes me as a rare issue where it's easy to appreciate both sides. We have a societal expectation - to wit, that women can be both mothers and have a career - that must be borne by a small group of individuals. It's equally dissatisfying to ask a woman to delay or forego childbirth as it is to ask someone else to subsidize that decision without any appreciable benefit. Ultimately, unless we're going to go back to Mad Men days, I don't see a resolution. And reasonable people will continue to disagree about the appropriate course of action.
I didn't mean to imply that there isn't a 'right' way to go about being a physician on maternity leave. But I would characterize these proposals as ameliorations rather than resolutions. That is, a mindful and considerate approach may make the outcome of maternity leave more palatable, but the underlying conflict remains. Just because the formerly pregnant resident does the same amount of work doesn't mean the situation is equitable.
"Schedule a pregnancy" is a little simplistic even for an orthopod 😉
What a good program does is decide on the appropriate workload for a resident, require that amount of work and then find other ways to cover the rest (attendings, midlevels, whatever). It's really the programs fault when they assign you someone else's work. Either they were being too nice before or they are overworking you now. My old fellowship had one fellow per year for a while in the early 2000s. The attendings alternated call with us. We also had every female fellow for a decade have a kid during fellowship fwiw.
What a good program does is decide on the appropriate workload for a resident, require that amount of work and then find other ways to cover the rest (attendings, midlevels, whatever). It's really the programs fault when they assign you someone else's work. Either they were being too nice before or they are overworking you now. My old fellowship had one fellow per year for a while in the early 2000s. The attendings alternated call with us. We also had every female fellow for a decade have a kid during fellowship fwiw.
What with months with 5 weeks and all it is just over 9 months and under 10
A month is 4 1/3 weeks. So 40 weeks is 9 months and a week
You never realized that most months have more than 4x7=28 days?
By the same token, why is it your co-resident's job to deny herself a family to facilitate giving you an easier time in residency? THAT'S the part that selfish. The resident didn't tell you it's your job. Your program did. We all know what we're getting into and we know that given that residency is when it is (mid to late-20s through early to mid-30s), people WILL be having children. Go into residency assuming this is a FACT, not a what-if and you'll be a lot happier.
There is such a thing as paternity leave. You should have applied for it.
Translation: Ya got me. Nothing left to say.
EASIER?
Uh, no. The point here is you're already working your butt off on a regular (surgical sub) call schedule. You don't see your family much. Now your colleage, without so much as a thanks, has a baby, takes at least six weeks off, and increases you and your coworkers workload.
Residency Isn't an easy lifestyle as is. I'd be pissed as all hell if someone acted like a dbag and told me to go f me and my family because they want to have a baby.
We all make sacrifices to be where we are and to get where we want to go. Don't f someone in the a for something that benefits you and you alone.
You want a baby so bad? Become a psych resident or family med.
So you have kids ... what if i told you had to wait 5 years to have kids, that you couldn't have them... that you don't have the right to have them. And here you are telling people who believe it's ok to have a family that you hate them.. .. ..
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there is...when the belly button turns inside out...really close to done! 🙂
no...he is not saying not to have kids...he's saying one should not expect that other residents will make sacrifices to THEIR lives and with THEIR families so you can have one...and he has a point, why should he have to sacrifice time with his kids to let you have time with your own? Just because he is the dad doesn't mean he doesn't want to be able to spend time with his kids and that somehow being a mother is more important than being a father...
obviously there is no good time in residency to have kids...but there are better times than other...intern year...bad, senior or chief year, better...in IM or FM, the residency is short...three years you can work something out...but the longer residencies not so much...but there are research months or year, elective time that can be put back to back, etc so you miss the least amount of calls, front load before maternity leave, etc...its not that you shouldn't be allowed to be pregnant but you shouldn't expect your co-residents to bend over backward to make that plan easy for you.
What? First of all your post doesn't make sense.
No ones telling anyone to not have kids, they're saying don't be a jacka** about it.
And why do most people choose not to get pregnant during college? Same concept with residency, except you have all your coworkers to think about instead of just yourself.
This is what he said ... .. "Great, now explain to me why it's my job to facilitate you having your family. And why my kids deserve to see me less so that you can see yours more." how else should i interpret this??? ... .... ...
thank god the law is on my side... ... i think it would be sad for anyone to let their co-residents decide when they start a family, it is a major life decision that is literally no one else's business, complain all you want, but women have the right to have kids and a career ... ...
i'm signing off of this thread.. .. thanks for wishing me ill will and saying that you hate a complete stranger... .. i wish you the best
You chose the specialty, knowing (or you should have known) that at least one or two of your colleagues would likely take leave during training. The fact that you didn't choose another specialty where you're not "already working your butt off" is not my problem.
I find it more than a little hypocritical that you're talking about dbags when you post the above. A colleague having a baby does NOT have to run it by you for your approval. You're pissed that your workload increases? Take it up with your program for not having more residents. It sure as hell isn't your co-resident's responsibility to keep your schedule manageable.
Sorry sweetheart. If I choose to have a baby, YOU won't even be a consideration, especially with that entitled attitude. Think of just myself? When it comes to having MY baby? Oh yeah, how incredibly selfish of me not to give colleagues a say in when I have a baby. (/sarcasm). You have absolutely nothing to do with me choosing when to start/expand my family. Nothing. Whatsoever. That is MY decision and the decision of my spouse. Leave exists for a reason and I sure as hell am not going to be guilted, intimidated, or insulted into not having a baby (or terminating a pregnancy) because it's inconvenient for you.
No one is saying you need to get permission from anyone else or forgo having kids. We are just saying that you should show a little ****ing gratitute for the people who are picking up the slack so that you can do so (whether said slack is being taken up by fellow residents, the attendings, or some magical maternity/paternity leave physician extenders hired just for your babymaking). Sure it would also be cool if you try not to royally screw everyone over with the timing, but of course **** happens on its own time frame often so people will understand unless of course you tell everyone you timed it so you would drop a kid during the busiest rotation on purpose. I took medical leave during residency and also while an attending, and while I know that I was within my rights to take the time whenever the hell I wanted I didn't just consider myself when choosing the times I went out (since medically I had flexibility). I was also well within my rights to take as much time as I could get and not make any of it up, but I offered to take some extra call before and when I came back (just like would happen with taking vacation). I also thanked the people who covered for me during that time (and more importantly was ready and willing to cover them when needed). You would be surprised at how losing the attitude of entitlement can smooth away a lot of the issues that can arise with taking leave.
I never disagreed with that. Of course you should be grateful, just as you should be grateful any time people try to accommodate you. You should absolutely thank those covering for you and you should absolutely offer to take some extra call, even if you're not required to. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is the sheer hostility because others don't agree with your (not you specifically, just in general) mantra of (a) not having a baby during residency (which has been suggested in this thread), (b) the guilt trips -- "why should I sacrifice time with my family so you can start yours?", and (c) the expectation that if I don't plan my pregnancy around my colleague's convenience, I'm selfish. Having a baby is a personal thing between a husband and a wife, not something open for Internet polls with colleagues having a say into when the baby should be conceived.
I would have no problem picking up the extra work load to cover shifts for a coworker... so long as I got paid extra for it.
If I work X and get paid Y, then if I work 1.25X I should get paid 1.25Y.
Otherwise I'm missing time with my family for no reason.
I don't care if the coworker is out because of pregnancy, surgery, vacation, religious retreat, skydiving lessons, etc, etc, etc.
Pay me for my extra work.
If I can't/won't get paid for the extra work, then don't be surprised when I'm upset at my coworker for dumping extra work on me for whatever their reasons may be.
If I work X and get paid Y, then if I work 1.25X I should get paid 1.25Y.
Otherwise I'm missing time with my family for no reason.
I don't care if the coworker is out because of pregnancy, surgery, vacation, religious retreat, skydiving lessons, etc, etc, etc.
Pay me for my extra work.
If I can't/won't get paid for the extra work, then don't be surprised when I'm upset at my coworker for dumping extra work on me for whatever their reasons may be.
Again, the above is the difference between surgery types and medicine types.
Keep in mind that surgery subs may have as few as two residents per class; three to five is average for ortho. One person leaving for any reason for any amount of time has a huge impact on the call schedule.
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