Math classes...

[OSUdoc08]

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It would probably be helpful to those in a typical non-academic practice that want to read and understand the Anestesiology journal that has articles with integrals in them.

If your goal is to be able to understand EVERYTHING in a medical journal, perhaps you should consider going into research and getting a Ph.D.

I don't recall seeing integrals in my Emergency Medicine journal, but I'm sure if I did, I wouldn't cry if I had to skip the article.

 

[seadizzle]

You might not cry, but your patient's family might.

 

[OSUdoc08]

You might not cry, but your patient's family might.

Yup. I'm sure knowing the validity of a research study by looking at the math will prevent dangers to my patient.

You people crack me up. If you've ever seen an article, there is a summary that discusses anything a practicing physician would need. This summary does require any knowledge of Calculus.

 

[seadizzle]

Yup. I'm sure knowing the validity of a research study by looking at the math will prevent dangers to my patient.

You people crack me up. If you've ever seen an article, there is a summary that discusses anything a practicing physician would need. This summary does require any knowledge of Calculus.

😉 Ok, a little melodramatic on my part

I cannot imagine what math did to you to be so 😡 on it
Girlfriend cheat on you with a differential equation or something? I've thought about it a few times 😍

 

[OSUdoc08]

😉 Ok, a little melodramatic on my part

I cannot imagine what math did to you to be so 😡 on it
Girlfriend cheat on you with a differential equation or something? I've thought about it a few times 😍

2.0 college GPA in math after 2 years of calculus in high school,

followed by the realization that I never used Calculus during my last 2 years of college or my first 2 years of medical school.

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

This is a moot argument. Everything you need to know to be a good doctor will be taught in medical school. I'd say you don't need to know anything beforehand - including biology, chemistry, physics, etc. A reasonably clever person will be able to figure everything out.

Is math good to have? I think so. So is composition, literature, finance, philosophy, and any number of topics. We all have different opinions about the purpose of a university education and the breadth that one needs to be considered educated.

</off soapbox>

 

[OSUdoc08]

This is a moot argument. Everything you need to know to be a good doctor will be taught in medical school. I'd say you don't need to know anything beforehand - including biology, chemistry, physics, etc. A reasonably clever person will be able to figure everything out.

Is math good to have? I think so. So is composition, literature, finance, philosophy, and any number of topics. We all have different opinions about the purpose of a university education and the breadth that one needs to be considered educated.

</off soapbox>

👍 👍

 

[tikiman]

2.0 college GPA in math after 2 years of calculus in high school,

followed by the realization that I never used Calculus during my last 2 years of college or my first 2 years of medical school.

WOW... math has screwed me up pretty nicely too. Already have two W's on my application for dropping from Calculus I two times in the same yr (freshmen)...

so wat grades did u get in those math classes? How did u manage to get into med school with math gpa of 2.0? Any word of advice would be helpful as i recently found out that i should probably go for calc AGAIN?
tikiman

 

[OSUdoc08]

WOW... math has screwed me up pretty nicely too. Already have two W's on my application for dropping from Calculus I two times in the same yr (freshmen)...

so wat grades did u get in those math classes? How did u manage to get into med school with math gpa of 2.0? Any word of advice would be helpful as i recently found out that i should probably go for calc AGAIN?
tikiman

Calculus I --> 2.0
Biostatistics --> 2.0

The medical schools I was accepted to did not have a math prerequisite.

 

[tikiman]

Calculus I --> 2.0
Biostatistics --> 2.0

The medical schools I was accepted to did not have a math prerequisite.

i meant that getting 2.0's in two classes must have screwed up ur gpa royally. So with that in mind, how did u get into an MD school since MD schools avg gpa is like 3.4-5???? Wat gpa did u pass undergrad with? i thought that ALL med schools have a math pre requisites... wat school do u go to???
tikiman

 

[seadizzle]

Any word of advice would be helpful as i recently found out that i should probably go for calc AGAIN?

I've done some intro calc tutoring, and I really believe anyone can learn calculus. The problems a lot of people have is either 1. they are not mathematically prepared (had poor teachers in alg2/trig) or 2. are intimidated by math/the idea of calculus, or 3. confuse understanding a lecture with being able to work the problems.

Where did you run into problems in the times you took calculus?

 

[OSUdoc08]

i meant that getting 2.0's in two classes must have screwed up ur gpa royally. So with that in mind, how did u get into an MD school since MD schools avg gpa is like 3.4-5???? Wat gpa did u pass undergrad with? i thought that ALL med schools have a math pre requisites... wat school do u go to???
tikiman

Incorrect, not all medical schools require math (i.e. calculus or above).

I interviewed at several MD schools, but was rejected based on factors other than my math GPA.

I go to Oklahoma State.

 

[tikiman]

Incorrect, not all medical schools require math (i.e. calculus or above).

I interviewed at several MD schools, but was rejected based on factors other than my math GPA.

I go to Oklahoma State.

dude, u just gave me hope for the future! 😍

....do u have any idea on how many schools do not require math?

 

[OSUdoc08]

dude, u just gave me hope for the future! 😍

....do u have any idea on how many schools do not require math?

"The following chart lists all of the schools that publish a requirement in math. If you do not find a school on this list, it is because they do not have a math requirement."

http://www.studentaffairs.columbia.edu/preprofessional/health/premedical_curriculum/math_req.php

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

if you want to be a "car mechanic" physician, then no you don't need to understand math.

If you understand that the body is a constantly changing system, then you understand the value of math.

Most people that don't understand math, don't understand why it's useful.

 

[OSUdoc08]

if you want to be a "car mechanic" physician, then no you don't need to understand math.

If you understand that the body is a constantly changing system, then you understand the value of math.

Most people that don't understand math, don't understand why it's useful.

I've taken 5 semesters of calculus. You will NEVER use it in a non-academic practice. I promise you that.

Not at any point in the diagnosis and treatment of my patient do I need to "bust out" an integral to help me decide on the appropriate treatment.

Unless you have completed at least 2 years of medical school, there is no need to respond to this post, since you don't have the appropriate experience to give a dissenting opinion.

 

[americanpierg]

no offense... but if you have to take Trig in college you might not be on track to go to med school... your Gen Chem and Physics classes will be largely based on Math, and the physical sciences section of the MCAT requires you to have certain Math operations down like breathing... do you go to Eastern BTW ?

LOL are you kidding me? im sure i need to find out if a series converges or diverges and convert random useless equations into taylor series to succeed in medicine

 

[americanpierg]

I've taken 5 semesters of calculus. You will NEVER use it in a non-academic practice. I promise you that.

actually i found calc one to be very applicable and a great tool to know, the second half of calc 2 and calc 3 are just useless material though

 

[novawildcat]

LOL are you kidding me? im sure i need to find out if a series converges or diverges and convert random useless equations into taylor series to succeed in medicine

yeah and I'm sure I'm going to have to recall passages from Dante's Inferno or know what Existentialism is to also succeed in medicine...
come to think of it, why go to college? from the sounds of it, a college education is worthless since 99% of the time you "don't use it in med school."

 

[OSUdoc08]

actually i found calc one to be very applicable and a great tool to know, the second half of calc 2 and calc 3 are just useless material though

Can you provide some examples of how I would use it in practice?

Thanks.

 

[americanpierg]

yeah and I'm sure I'm going to have to recall passages from Dante's Inferno or know what Existentialism is to also succeed in medicine...
come to think of it, why go to college? from the sounds of it, a college education is worthless since 99% of the time you "don't use it in med school."

lol you are an idiot, if u were able to read you woudlve noticed the respone was directed towards the comment "no offense... but if you have to take Trig in college you might not be on track to go to med school... ",

and to answer your question, a college education IS worthless, but sadly one has to go through it in able to reach med school, who wants to cram for a physics class if they didnt have to, if given the chance 99.99% of the people out there would gladly go right into med school from highschool and skip this bull**** undergrad. dont give me all this crap about this being ur time to pick random classes and learn stuff that u find exciting, cuz id rather do that on my own time and not waste my life with this stuff, all this stuff that you learn which have no relevance to medicine, how much of it are you going to be able to remember 5 years from now?

 

[americanpierg]

I've taken 5 semesters of calculus. You will NEVER use it in a non-academic practice. I promise you that.

Not at any point in the diagnosis and treatment of my patient do I need to "bust out" an integral to help me decide on the appropriate treatment.

Unless you have completed at least 2 years of medical school, there is no need to respond to this post, since you don't have the appropriate experience to give a dissenting opinion.

elementary calc is bascially a shortcut to all the math we learned up to that point, most of physics is bascially calc, u could use calc when analyzing the profits of ur practice, use it when working on ur investments (ie stockmarket), and im sure they use it when analyzing the flow of blood in a person and whatnot (there was a math problem on this lol).

how do u not see its usefullness after taking 5 semesters of calc 1, if i wouldve taken this class in middle school it wouldve made highschool/college a whole lot easier, calc is a better tool to know than chemistry would ever be

 

[OSUdoc08]

elementary calc is bascially a shortcut to all the math we learned up to that point, most of physics is bascially calc, maybe if ur analyzing the profits of ur practice, you could throw in an integral to make ur life much easier not to mention less stress on ur calculator , to sum it up, calc is a one big shortcut to math

how do u not see its usefullness after taking 5 semesters of calc 1, if i wouldve taken this class in middle school it wouldve made highschool/college a whole lot easier, calc is a better tool to know than chemistry would ever be

This is only if you are responsible for this sort of thing. As an emergency physician, I will not.

I will use chemistry every day in the emergency department.

I will never use calculus. Sorry to burst your little math club bubble.

 

[americanpierg]

This is only if you are responsible for this sort of thing. As an emergency physician, I will not.

I will use chemistry every day in the emergency department.

I will never use calculus. Sorry to burst your little math club bubble.

what would you use chemistry for?

 

[OSUdoc08]

what would you use chemistry for?

I think I'll let you attend medical school to find out for yourself.

I'll give you a hint:

ABG's

Electrolytes

etc.

 

[novawildcat]

lol you are an idiot, if u were able to read you woudlve noticed the respone was directed towards the comment "no offense... but if you have to take Trig in college you might not be on track to go to med school... ",

and to answer your question, a college education IS worthless, but sadly one has to go through it in able to reach med school, who wants to cram for a physics class if they didnt have to, if given the chance 99.99% of the people out there would gladly go right into med school from highschool and skip this bull**** undergrad. dont give me all this crap about this being ur time to pick random classes and learn stuff that u find exciting, cuz id rather do that on my own time and not waste my life with this stuff, all this stuff that you learn which have no relevance to medicine, how much of it are you going to be able to remember 5 years from now?

LOL, I am the "idiot" when you are the one who has a huge chunk of writing that is nothing but a run on sentence. You=example of why a college education is NOT worthless. Maybe if you learned how to actually write proper English sentences in college, people would be able to understand you. Here is a scary thought-you being a MD when you only have the mental capacity to write like a 5 year old.

How the hell do you think the tools like the NMRI, CT Scan, EKG, etc. were invented in the first place? They were probably invented by physicists, engineers, and doctors all working in conjuntion with each other. I'll put my money down that the MDs who helped to build those wonderful tools had to have had a basic understanding of what the hell the physicists and engineers were talking about in terms of math. Why do you think med schools have the basic prereqs? Hmmmm.... maybe because people who have been practicing medicine for a hell of a lot longer than you, me, and probably 99% of the people on this board KNOW MORE THAN US. **Gasp!!** believe it or not, there are students who will enter med school that will eventually become physician scientists, and WILL probably at some point in their carreer have to recall some of their gen. chem., Ochem, physics, or calculus.

 

[americanpierg]

LOL, I am the "idiot" when you are the one who has a huge chunk of writing that is nothing but a run on sentence. You=example of why a college education is NOT worthless. Maybe if you learned how to actually write proper English sentences in college, people would be able to understand you. Here is a scary thought-you being a MD when you only have the mental capacity to write like a 5 year old.

How the hell do you think the tools like the NMRI, CT Scan, EKG, etc. were invented in the first place? They were probably invented by physicists, engineers, and doctors all working in conjuntion with each other. I'll put my money down that the MDs who helped to build those wonderful tools had to have had a basic understanding of what the hell the physicists and engineers were talking about in terms of math. Why do you think med schools have the basic prereqs? Hmmmm.... maybe because people who have been practicing medicine for a hell of a lot longer than you, me, and probably 99% of the people on this board KNOW MORE THAN US. **Gasp!!** believe it or not, there are students who will enter med school that will eventually become physician scientists, and WILL probably at some point in their carreer have to recall some of their gen. chem., Ochem, physics, or calculus.

LOL i love it when people critize others grammer on random online forums, this isnt an english class bro, i grew up in the instant messaging age and this is the equivalent of AIM. im sorry if i dont expend as much effort as you to throw in a capitalization here, a period there, a random **GASP!!** in the middle of nowhere. i type what i wanna say and get it out with the least amount of effort/time. u losers who type out essays on AIM always crack me up, taking 2 minutes inbetween responses. Oh, and believe it or not, more MDs will be confined in the field of medicine than those that will venture off and submit crazy patents for insanely complicated machines.

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

Unless you have completed at least 2 years of medical school, there is no need to respond to this post, since you don't have the appropriate experience to give a dissenting opinion.

this is why i usually don't post in the md-only forum.

 

[novawildcat]

LOL i love it when people critize others grammer on random online forums, this isnt an english class bro, this is the equivalent of AIM. im sorry if i dont expend as much effort as you to throw in a capitalization here, a period there, a random **GASP!!** in the middle of nowhere. Believe it or not, more MDs will be confined in the field of medicine than those that will venture off and submit crazy patents for insanely complicated machines.

ok fine, screw the grammAr just at least learn how to spell. that is all i ask before you become the responsible one in the OR with the scapel.

 

[americanpierg]

ok fine, screw the grammAr just at least learn how to spell. that is all i ask before you become the responsible one in the OR with the scapel.

so what happened to the capitalization there? sorry but u cant be like me, nice try tho

alright wildcat, lets have some fun here. lets go into random general practitioners offices and ask them to integrate the simple simple equation 1/2(x) and see how many of them can do it. if they fail i guess they must be HORRRRIBLE inadequate doctors that should quit immediately since higher math is so crucial to a doctors success. everyone knows that if u need advance math to help assist in creating an electrocardiogram, you must need it to diagnose the flu.

 

[dbhvt]

Yup. I'm sure knowing the validity of a research study by looking at the math will prevent dangers to my patient.

You people crack me up. If you've ever seen an article, there is a summary that discusses anything a practicing physician would need. This summary does require any knowledge of Calculus.

Dude, you can't just read the summaries. There's shiit in those journals every week.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Dude, you can't just read the summaries. There's shiit in those journals every week.

You don't need to understand the journals anyway. That's why you go to math-free CME conferences.

 

[dbhvt]

You don't need to understand the journals anyway. That's why you go to math-free CME conferences.

Son, it's time we had a talk.

 

[MollyMalone]

The bottom line is that if a working knowledge of calculus were essential to the practice of the average physician, every medical school would require it.

Less than 25% of American allo schools require it.

Clearly there are some aspects of medical research in which calculus can be useful or even necessary but none of the practicing physicians I know advised me to take it when I asked them (it would have pushed me back a year). (OK, one told me to take it because it would make physics more fun, but even he admitted that it was not useful for his practice.) And I asked about 50 of them.

 

[americanpierg]

The bottom line is that if a working knowledge of calculus were essential to the practice of the average physician, every medical school would require it.

Less than 25% of American allo schools require it.

Clearly there are some aspects of medical research in which calculus can be useful or even necessary but none of the practicing physicians I know advised me to take it when I asked them (it would have pushed me back a year). (OK, one told me to take it because it would make physics more fun, but even he admitted that it was not useful for his practice.) And I asked about 50 of them.

hallelujah!!, right on brotha, CAN I GET AN AAAAMENN!!! sorry for the outburst, unlike u doctors im gonna become a preacher of propagandized religion, ie all religion, BUT anyways back on subject

totally agree, calculus is like physics, u dont NEED it in a medical practice, but it makes everyday life a little bit easier at times, ie calculating the amount of neopoints itll cost for u to upgrade you neoshop to size 350

 

[seadizzle]

You got a C in Calc I yet took four more semesters of calculus? Why submit yourself to calcII, multivar, diffeq, and I guess a vector calc class?

If your thinking about the world didn't evolve in five semesters of calculus then I guess it was worthless to you. My thinking definitely evolved after taking those classes, I gained a much more mature understanding of so many natural processes. There might not be direct application when you are in the ER (nurse, I need integral from 1 to 8 of x^2 dx ccs of morphine, STAT), but I think the maturity of thinking and understanding that *should* come along with five semesters of (applied) math is helpful.

I'm sorry if you feel like those five semesters were wasted on you. I've taken more than those five, and they certainly were not wasted on me.

 

[Iwy Em Hotep]

Wow, why all the hating on OSUdoc for his math preferences? He's not suggesting that no one should take math, or that math is useless. He just doesn't like math. What's wrong with that?

I like math, but I don't think that math has a monopoly in terms of developing critical thinking skills. And calculus *certainly* doesn't - you have to at least get into the ball-busting proof-based courses before you get some real rigor. But plenty of other classes (and yes, even activities outside of school) give you the abstraction and deductive reasoning skills that are helpful in medicine.

I feel like starting a thread decrying pre-med curricula for their dearth of arts classes, since a good eye for art is also really helpful in medicine.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Son, it's time we had a talk.

Let's talk.

P.S. Some medical schools don't require math for a reason.

 

[OSUdoc08]

You got a C in Calc I yet took four more semesters of calculus? Why submit yourself to calcII, multivar, diffeq, and I guess a vector calc class?

If your thinking about the world didn't evolve in five semesters of calculus then I guess it was worthless to you. My thinking definitely evolved after taking those classes, I gained a much more mature understanding of so many natural processes. There might not be direct application when you are in the ER (nurse, I need integral from 1 to 8 of x^2 dx ccs of morphine, STAT), but I think the maturity of thinking and understanding that *should* come along with five semesters of (applied) math is helpful.

I'm sorry if you feel like those five semesters were wasted on you. I've taken more than those five, and they certainly were not wasted on me.

They may not have been wasted on you, but they certainly won't help you in medicine.

P.S. It was Calculus AB AP and Calculus BC AP in high school, followed by Calclulus I in college, all of which were worthless.

 

[americanpierg]

They may not have been wasted on you, but they certainly won't help you in medicine.

P.S. It was Calculus AB AP and Calculus BC AP in high school, followed by Calclulus I in college, all of which were worthless.

lol luckily you didnt venture further into calc, as you wouldve found the rest to be even more worthless than you've already experienced

 

[dbhvt]

Let's talk.

P.S. Some medical schools don't require math for a reason.

Not about the math, about the journals.

Calculus is great fun, but you just don't need it. I'm with you there (on the not needing it).

 

[seadizzle]

They may not have been wasted on you, but they certainly won't help you in medicine.

P.S. It was Calculus AB AP and Calculus BC AP in high school, followed by Calclulus I in college, all of which were worthless.

Haha, I'm not sure taking the same two semesters of calculus 5 times counts as five semesters of calculus. You clearly didn't understand it if got a C the fifth time you took freshman calculus. Maybe it is your lack of understanding of the subject that blinds you to the indirect use it could serve to people?

You just sound ignorant if you say the courses won't help me in medicine. Calculus didn't help *you* in medicine. I have already said that in practice calculus probably won't be used directly, but indirectly? My vector calculus course greatly helped my ability to think in three dimensions.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Haha, I'm not sure taking the same two semesters of calculus 5 times counts as five semesters of calculus. You clearly didn't understand it if got a C the fifth time you took freshman calculus. Maybe it is your lack of understanding of the subject that blinds you to the indirect use it could serve to people?

You just sound ignorant if you say the courses won't help me in medicine. Calculus didn't help *you* in medicine. I have already said that in practice calculus probably won't be used directly, but indirectly? My vector calculus course greatly helped my ability to think in three dimensions.

If I want to know what 3 dimensions are, I'll just look in my pants.

P.S. Every time you do an integral, a Leydig cell dies.

 

[americanpierg]

If I want to know what 3 dimensions are, I'll just look in my pants.

P.S. Every time you do an integral, a Leydig cell dies.

i wish i could do the same, but god created mine through four dimensions, it cant even be viewed entirely becuase the bottom half rips through the frabric of three dimensional space, expanding into all vectors

 

[SoCalWeener]

my school is on the quarter system, how does this translate into semesters?

for example, if i have taken 1 quarter of calculus, 1 quarter of statistics, and 1 quarter of a computer programming class. am i ok?

 

[top]

Why do most of the elite medical schools require calculus?

 

[OctoDoc]

Is there anyone here that likes advanced mathematics, is good at it, but insists that it is worthless in medicine?

On another note regarding journal articles, reading an abstract or a summary only, amounts to taking what is said as gospel. That is very dangerous! As anyone familiar with research (I mean truly familiar, not a couple of years of pre-med research) knows, much of what is in the literature is erroneous, and even more of the conclusions are based on faulty analysis of faulty and incomplete studies, with data that has little (if any) statistical error analysis. Thus, it is important to read articles with a questioning mind. That means physicians and medical students with precious little time to read journal articles should be very selective about the articles that they read, and read them critically. That means to look at how the studies were done, and question whether the conclusions follow logically from the data and analyses presented. Quite often conclusions and interpretation of data are on very shaky ground and should be regarded as such. Here is where the math comes in. In a lot of studies, at least an appreciation of mathematics (statistics, calculus, complex variables, whatever may be the case) is needed to be able to understand a body of work and so to be able to view it critically and put it in its proper perspective, i.e. whether or not and how you want to use that information in your daily practice, be it medical research or patient care.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Why do most of the elite medical schools require calculus?

So that only math nerds will be accepted.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Is there anyone here that likes advanced mathematics, is good at it, but insists that it is worthless in medicine?

On another note regarding journal articles, reading an abstract or a summary only, amounts to taking what is said as gospel. That is very dangerous! As anyone familiar with research (I mean truly familiar, not a couple of years of pre-med research) knows, much of what is in the literature is erroneous, and even more of the conclusions are based on faulty analysis of faulty and incomplete studies, with data that has little (if any) statistical error analysis. Thus, it is important to read articles with a questioning mind. That means physicians and medical students with precious little time to read journal articles should be very selective about the articles that they read, and read them critically. That means to look at how the studies were done, and question whether the conclusions follow logically from the data and analyses presented. Quite often conclusions and interpretation of data are on very shaky ground and should be regarded as such. Here is where the math comes in. In a lot of studies, at least an appreciation of mathematics (statistics, calculus, complex variables, whatever may be the case) is needed to be able to understand a body of work and so to be able to view it critically and put it in its proper perspective, i.e. whether or not and how you want to use that information in your daily practice, be it medical research or patient care.

👍 👍 👍

 

[top]

So that only math nerds will be accepted.

What's the rationale for the best medicals schools wanting to accept a higher proportion of math nerds? There must be some logic behind the decision, right?