Math classes...

[OSUdoc08]

---

Members do not see this ad.

What's the rationale for the best medicals schools wanting to accept a higher proportion of math nerds? There must be some logic behind the decision, right?

Obviously not, since there is no math beyond an 8th grade level in medical school.

It may have something to do with personality (or lack thereof.) They tend to stick with their own.

 

[dbhvt]

Is there anyone here that likes advanced mathematics, is good at it, but insists that it is worthless in medicine?.

That would be me, though worthless is probably too strong. It is not necessary, and most likely you will find yourself stretching to use it in clinical medicine.

However, to understand the clinical literature, a thorough understanding of basic statistics is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. More advanced stats are helpful.

From where I'm sitting, a physician who is afraid of numbers is a big problem, but as far as calc is concerned, the concepts that are important are easy to understand without even knowing they are calc concepts. Rates, areas under curves, whatever. These things are important in, say, pharm, but they are basic easy to understand concepts and I just don't think you need the skills for manipulating the equations.

On another note regarding journal articles, reading an abstract or a summary only, amounts to taking what is said as gospel. That is very dangerous! As anyone familiar with research (I mean truly familiar, not a couple of years of pre-med research) knows, much of what is in the literature is erroneous, and even more of the conclusions are based on faulty analysis of faulty and incomplete studies, with data that has little (if any) statistical error analysis. Thus, it is important to read articles with a questioning mind. That means physicians and medical students with precious little time to read journal articles should be very selective about the articles that they read, and read them critically. That means to look at how the studies were done, and question whether the conclusions follow logically from the data and analyses presented. Quite often conclusions and interpretation of data are on very shaky ground and should be regarded as such. Here is where the math comes in. In a lot of studies, at least an appreciation of mathematics (statistics, calculus, complex variables, whatever may be the case) is needed to be able to understand a body of work and so to be able to view it critically and put it in its proper perspective, i.e. whether or not and how you want to use that information in your daily practice, be it medical research or patient care.

Good elaboration on my earlier post 👍

 

[OSUdoc08]

That would be me, though worthless is probably too strong. It is not necessary, and most likely you will find yourself stretching to use it in clinical medicine.

However, to understand the clinical literature, a thorough understanding of basic statistics is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY. More advanced stats are helpful.

From where I'm sitting, a physician who is afraid of numbers is a big problem, but as far as calc is concerned, the concepts that are important are easy to understand without even knowing they are calc concepts. Rates, areas under curves, whatever. These things are important in, say, pharm, but they are basic easy to understand concepts and I just don't think you need the skills for manipulating the equations.




Good elaboration on my earlier post 👍

I agree. Basic stats are important for medicine. You will never use calculus equations in practice.

 

[top]

Obviously not, since there is no math beyond an 8th grade level in medical school.

It may have something to do with personality (or lack thereof.) They tend to stick with their own.

i guess that could be it, although i wish you luck trying to get THAT kind of honest out of the people who determine those regulations!

maybe they just like people who demonstrate a firm mastery of purely theoretical concepts, even if you never use it for clinical medicine. it's certainly a different part of the brain than the more or less rote memorization of biochemistry/anatomy/pathology etc.

i do agree with the earlier poster that statistics is more important. i would go so far as to say that if it were up to me, everyone who graduates from college would be required to take one semester of basic stats. it's a lot harder to be manipulated by numbers if you know what the hell they mean.

 

[Charles Murphy]

Summary: If medical schools really saw a need for higher-level math past Calculus I (if even that), I am sure they would require it. The majority do not.

End of discussion.

 

[MollyMalone]

Summary: If medical schools really saw a need for higher-level math past Calculus I (if even that), I am sure they would require it. The majority do not.

End of discussion.

I tried that, a few pages back. It didn't work.

They're just arguing for the sake of arguing now. 🙄

 

[ocean09]

i think someone said something about "if you don't know cal then you are a bad doctor."

how about those who aced all their cal classes but years later they hardly remember a thing.

my friend took cal I when she was a soph in hs. an dtook cal II when she was junior in hs. and she passed al lher ap exams. now if you ask her anything about cal, she hardly remember anytlhing. she is a junior in college by the way.

she is a premed. does that make her a bad doc?

 

[Charles Murphy]

To answer your question, no of course not. I think the main purpose for math for those who aren't planning on a math-intensive field like engineering or theoretical math/physics/economics is to gain that sense of "enlightenment" of higher learning. Math, in some aspects, can help you make connections between different subjects. Taking higher level math helps make it easier for you to grasp unrelated subjects that have the same intensity/problem solving as it does.

Most of the possible applications tend to be in research, but I would say it doesn't hurt or help one significantly to take college level math. I checked, by the way, and that MSAR is not current and has some flaws for the requirements. Only Harvard and Duke Medical Schools require a minimum of Calc I + Calc II. Every other school including Hopkins will take a mix of Calc I + Stats, only Calc I, only Stats, or no math whatsoever.

I know this discussion will continue despite my words, but again I reiterate that math beyond Calc I and Stats is probably overkill and unnecessary UNLESS you enjoy it. But by no means is it required.

 

[OctoDoc]

This is the definitive answer as to why everyone should know math:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPwqL9bwAw&search=math

(stick it out for a couple of minutes...)

 

[UMP]

This is the definitive answer as to why everyone should know math:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsPwqL9bwAw&search=math

wow, Basic Programming... that takes me back

 

[willthatsall]

Obviously not, since there is no math beyond an 8th grade level in medical school.

It may have something to do with personality (or lack thereof.) They tend to stick with their own.

Here we go with this one again. Top med schools only take calculus-loving geeks with high MCATs and GPAs with no social skills. Everyone at other MD or DO schools are way cooler and have better social skills because they don't like math.

 

[OctoDoc]

Here we go with this one again. Top med schools only take calculus-loving geeks with high MCATs and GPAs with no social skills. Everyone at other MD or DO schools are way cooler and have better social skills because they don't like math.

That sounds like a hypothesis. Quick, someone write a proposal. With no math. Or with lots of math. Oh, I don't know anymore.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Here we go with this one again. Top med schools only take calculus-loving geeks with high MCATs and GPAs with no social skills. Everyone at other MD or DO schools are way cooler and have better social skills because they don't like math.

👍 👍 👍

 

[seadizzle]

The reason top med schools want to see calculus is because it shows the students are able to tackle the quantitative side of research. If you needed to take 5 semesters of intro calculus, you are never going to be able to do research in predator/prey relations in immunology. Or calculate turbulent fluid flow in a heart with a partial obstruction. Or use operations research/linear programming to come up with an optimial solution to some type of diagnosis/treatment regimine. You might not think this is interesting, but math and "math geeks" advance the science of (and behind) medicine everyday.

You of course use these results... you learn in simpler terms what the conclusions of their research were, which allows you to practice clinical medicine without calculus. And if that's what you want to do, more power to you - we need troops on the front line, and you don't need to go to a top med school to practice.

And you keep telling yourself the people in top med schools are geeks with no social skills. It sounds like you have a few compensation issues. Anyway, I think you'd find the students in top med schools are quite outgoing and personable - club leaders, community service organizers, etc.

 

[novawildcat]

The reason top med schools want to see calculus is because it shows the students are able to tackle the quantitative side of research. If you needed to take 5 semesters of intro calculus, you are never going to be able to do research in predator/prey relations in immunology. Or calculate turbulent fluid flow in a heart with a partial obstruction. Or use operations research/linear programming to come up with an optimial solution to some type of diagnosis/treatment regimine. You might not think this is interesting, but math and "math geeks" advance the science of (and behind) medicine everyday.

You of course use these results... you learn in simpler terms what the conclusions of their research were, which allows you to practice clinical medicine without calculus. And if that's what you want to do, more power to you - we need troops on the front line, and you don't need to go to a top med school to practice.

And you keep telling yourself the people in top med schools are geeks with no social skills. It sounds like you have a few compensation issues. Anyway, I think you'd find the students in top med schools are quite outgoing and personable - club leaders, community service organizers, etc.

::sigh:: 99% of people will simply never understand that anything that is dynamic in nature, whether it be the human body, the stock market,drug metabolism, or the environment has the potential to be mathematically modeled using all sorts of fun differential calc. sea, i think it is just simply time to give up and move on.