Matriculating to an unranked school

[sinombre]

There's also a lot of selection bias. People who go to a brand name school for med school and undergrad are likely the same people who will put a lot of weight on name in their residency.

I can tell you that from my personal experience of n=1, do well in med school and doors open up. State school + strong boards + AOA = interviews wherever you want. As previously stated, if you're a jerk on interviews, it's game over.

This will (hopefully) be my last bit of advice: You will get a great medical education wherever you go (in the states). Medical education is entirely dependent on how much you put in. Believe it or not, we get the same textbooks at my school as they do at Yale. Beyond that, I would even go so far as to say I think I got a better education than most. I have never scrubbed in on a whipple (nor do I have the desire to do so), but I was first assist on every surgery for my surgery rotation; I delivered a ton of babies on ob/gyn; I tubed and lined a ton of patients on EM and ICU; oh psych, well, I basically just sat around, but the point still stands. You need to figure out where you will be happy. For me, I would be happy if I stayed in-state so I could keep my loans down and be close to family. A lot of people feel like they need to go to a name school to be happy, I didn't. My MCAT wouldn't have been high enough to get me a merit scholarship at anywhere fancy and I don't come from money, so it didn't make sense. What made sense to me was being somewhere that was close enough to home, where I liked the people and (with some savings and a little help from my family) I could keep my student loans below the 6 figure mark.

Good luck.

Great post! And loans below 6 figures? I wish I had that opportunity. I'll almost definitely have more than 300k of debt by the time I graduate. Definitely worth it, but still an extremely daunting thought.

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[SoulinNeed]

Where did you learn so much about medical school and the match? Do they teach this in the pre-med curriculum these days?

lol.

It's easier to get looked at in almost any field when you come from a great medical school. Not to mention the fact that Harvard is pass/fail and the average board score is good enough to get a serious look at most derm programs.

I know a lot about it because both of my parents are doctors and I had to help them during the match process. Sit down with your nonsense.

 

[SoulinNeed]

You are really missing the point. Harvard is sitting on the Mount Everest of NIH money, they just don't count it towards their medical school for that silly magazine.

Again, nobody cares about USNWR I'm talking about the top 10 to 15 schools as perceived by residency directors, based on their research efforts and funding. And again the order isn't going to matter a ton.

Next thing I know someone is going to point out Mayo is prestigious and ranked X where X is not a high number compared to Y and QQQQQ again totally missing the point.

If your option is a school ranked 34th vs. unranked pick the cheaper one. If it's a top tier school (again top 10-15 NOT USNWR) then I'd go to the high ranked school regardless of the financial situation if your goal is academic medicine or a competitive specialty.

I get your point. Harvard gets a ton of funding. I get it.

However, this is the top funding list. http://medcitynews.com/2011/03/top-nih-grant-funding-by-institutions-states-for-2010/

If you notice, University of Washington is number 3 (4th if you combine all of Harvard). Does this mean that they get more competitive specialties than a school like Pritzker? Now, I agree with you on academic medicine, to an extent. If you want to do academic medicine at a top program, then it's better to go to a top school. However, you don't need to go to a top school to do a competitive specialty (or did you mean top program in a competitive specialty?). Go look at bottom tiered schools, they've got plenty of people going into competitive specialties, just like any other school. Now, they may not be at top programs, but if you're looking to go into private practice, it really doesn't make much of a difference.

 

[rangoon1984]

Harvard could mail bags of **** to every household in America and they'd still be the most prestigious university in the US.

 

[twistedoak]

What are some of the unranked schools people would consider worthy to attend? (Over mid-ranked schools).

 

[SoulinNeed]

What are some of the unranked schools people would consider worthy to attend? (Over mid-ranked schools).

New York Medical College seems to be unranked this year, and for some reason, Loyola-Stritch was unranked this year, but was a mid tier ranked school the year before. Loyola is unranked because they didn't disclose all of their info to US News this year, but we'll see if that changes in the upcoming rankings. Rosalind Franklin is also unranked, but that's generally thought of as a bottom tiered school. Though, Rosalind Franklin matches plenty of people into competitive specialties, and Loyola had a very impressive match list this past year (this is Loyola's match list, it's the first post http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=897848).

 

[FSU2013]

What are some of the unranked schools people would consider worthy to attend? (Over mid-ranked schools).

You're missing the point. The point is that every US med school is good. You need to find out what fits you. You're trying to create another ranking system, just not the one that is established.

New York Medical College seems to be unranked this year, and for some reason, Loyola-Stritch was unranked this year, but was a mid tier ranked school the year before. Loyola is unranked because they didn't disclose all of their info to US News this year, but we'll see if that changes in the upcoming rankings. Rosalind Franklin is also unranked, but that's generally thought of as a bottom tiered school. Though, Rosalind Franklin matches plenty of people into competitive specialties, and Loyola had a very impressive match list this past year (this is Loyola's match list, it's the first post http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=897848).

Just as a warning to pre-meds: it's VERY hard to evaluate a school based on their match list, even for people "in the know." This is not to belittle you, just a matter of fact. First, you don't know what programs are strong in what field. As a fourth year med student, I still don't know what programs are strong in more than a couple fields, and even then, it's only a handful per field. Even in the field I'm going into, there isn't a list of top programs, and there are certainly elite programs that I know very little about. You could ask an attending in the field and even he or she may not know all of the great programs. Beyond that, you don't know people's personal preference. My school is in the south - very few people match into so-called "top programs" - a lot of which is due to selection bias. The idea of going somewhere cold or on the west coast is a huge turn off to a lot of people in my class - sure MGH, Hopkins, Mayo, etc are phenomenal, but I wore shorts and sandals today and a lot of people want to keep it that way. California is great and has some phenomenal programs, but the furthest west anyone in my family lives is Ohio. Also, you can buy a home near a lot of decent programs for $100,000, whereas you may be able to afford a shoe box in Boston, NYC or San Fran. I have a lot of friends who are great students with really strong apps but want to train close to home, or in the same city as their spouse can find a job, or have kids and want to live somewhere cheap, or want to go to a lesser known program that is really strong in a niche in which they are interested.

Again, all of this is not to say anything negative about any of the elite med schools or superstrong residency programs, this is just to say that a match list is extremely multifactorial and a lot of the people who put little value in going to a "name" med school are likely to put little value on it for residency.

 

[SoulinNeed]

You're missing the point. The point is that every US med school is good. You need to find out what fits you. You're trying to create another ranking system, just not the one that is established.



Just as a warning to pre-meds: it's VERY hard to evaluate a school based on their match list, even for people "in the know." This is not to belittle you, just a matter of fact. First, you don't know what programs are strong in what field. As a fourth year med student, I still don't know what programs are strong in more than a couple fields, and even then, it's only a handful per field. Even in the field I'm going into, there isn't a list of top programs, and there are certainly elite programs that I know very little about. You could ask an attending in the field and even he or she may not know all of the great programs. Beyond that, you don't know people's personal preference. My school is in the south - very few people match into so-called "top programs" - a lot of which is due to selection bias. The idea of going somewhere cold or on the west coast is a huge turn off to a lot of people in my class - sure MGH, Hopkins, Mayo, etc are phenomenal, but I wore shorts and sandals today and a lot of people want to keep it that way. California is great and has some phenomenal programs, but the furthest west anyone in my family lives is Ohio. Also, you can buy a home near a lot of decent programs for $100,000, whereas you may be able to afford a shoe box in Boston, NYC or San Fran. I have a lot of friends who are great students with really strong apps but want to train close to home, or in the same city as their spouse can find a job, or have kids and want to live somewhere cheap, or want to go to a lesser known program that is really strong in a niche in which they are interested.

Again, all of this is not to say anything negative about any of the elite med schools or superstrong residency programs, this is just to say that a match list is extremely multifactorial and a lot of the people who put little value in going to a "name" med school are likely to put little value on it for residency.

Exactly. Many of the people applying for residencies are in their 30's or near them, and have many obligations that they consider before some arbitrary ranking system that few people are even aware of or even care about. In the end, preferential location will likely be more important to you than how you perceive a program is ranked.

 

[bollywoodlover]

I'm reading a book called "The Successful Match" by Katta and Desai.

It looks like school reputation is one of the less important factors.

For plastics, a very competitive specialty, the order of important residence selection criteria were:
1)AOA
2) pubs
3) letters from a plastic doc
4) usmle scores
5) letters from friend or colleauge
6) letters of recc
7) med school class rank
8) rotation at your institution
9) med school grade pt average
10) research performed
11) MEDICAL SCHOOL
12) other honors
13) ecs
14)prior work experience
14) PS
16) dean's letter
17) med school rotations
18) Undergrad attended

Med school reputation is less important than some people make it seem. As you can see, it's FAR MORE important to do well relative to your class whereever you go to school and do well on the USMLE. If you don't make it into AOA, you are less likely to match into a competitive speciality than if you get AOA at an unranked school and are ranked well among your peers. I believe almost 50% that get into derm are in AOA. I know super smart people that went to top 20 med school and ended up in peds or something. They didn't make it into AOA and I was a bit surprised, while I know people at state schools who matched into derm or rads and were in AOA.

 

[Lanolin]

I know a lot about it because both of my parents are doctors and I had to help them during the match process. Sit down with your nonsense.

You know a lot about the match process, medical school, etc b/c your parents are doctors? Well ****, you might as well call me a radiologist and a wine expert b/c my parents are..

Give me a break.

 

[FSU2013]

I'm reading a book called "The Successful Match" by Katta and Desai.

It looks like school reputation is one of the less important factors.

For plastics, a very competitive specialty, the order of important residence selection criteria were:
1)AOA
2) pubs
3) letters from a plastic doc
4) usmle scores
5) letters from friend or colleauge
6) letters of recc
7) med school class rank
8) rotation at your institution
9) med school grade pt average
10) research performed
11) MEDICAL SCHOOL
12) other honors
13) ecs
14)prior work experience
14) PS
16) dean's letter
17) med school rotations
18) Undergrad attended

Med school reputation is less important than some people make it seem. As you can see, it's FAR MORE important to do well relative to your class whereever you go to school and do well on the USMLE. If you don't make it into AOA, you are less likely to match into a competitive speciality than if you get AOA at an unranked school and are ranked well among your peers. I believe almost 50% that get into derm are in AOA. I know super smart people that went to top 20 med school and ended up in peds or something. They didn't make it into AOA and I was a bit surprised, while I know people at state schools who matched into derm or rads and were in AOA.

Book = out of date.

Check the NRMP website for the PD survey. They also publish "Charting the Outcomes" every other year, which indirectly shows what PDs look for - it should be coming out this year a few months after the match.

 

[fahimaz7]

I'm reading a book called "The Successful Match" by Katta and Desai.

It looks like school reputation is one of the less important factors.

For plastics, a very competitive specialty, the order of important residence selection criteria were:
1)AOA
2) pubs
3) letters from a plastic doc
4) usmle scores
5) letters from friend or colleauge
6) letters of recc
7) med school class rank
8) rotation at your institution
9) med school grade pt average
10) research performed
11) MEDICAL SCHOOL
12) other honors
13) ecs
14)prior work experience
14) PS
16) dean's letter
17) med school rotations
18) Undergrad attended

Med school reputation is less important than some people make it seem. As you can see, it's FAR MORE important to do well relative to your class whereever you go to school and do well on the USMLE. If you don't make it into AOA, you are less likely to match into a competitive speciality than if you get AOA at an unranked school and are ranked well among your peers. I believe almost 50% that get into derm are in AOA. I know super smart people that went to top 20 med school and ended up in peds or something. They didn't make it into AOA and I was a bit surprised, while I know people at state schools who matched into derm or rads and were in AOA.

AOA goes hand in hand with board scores, class rank, and extracurricular activities. Big shocker that people who are competitive for derm are also likely to be nominated to AOA. What you're missing here is that the school you go to can help you quite a bit when all else is equal. When you apply to a competitive specialty or a competitive location for a specialty, you might be looked favorably upon if you came from a well known medical school instead of Mercer University in Georgia or some other lesser-known program.

About half of our AOA students are headed into peds, obgyn, or internal medicine. Residency selection is not a reflection of scholastic performance or competitiveness. FSU for example has an outstanding application and choose to go into EM. The top guy in my class is going general surgery. Top girl in my school is doing Peds.

 

[Kaputt]

Umm yes it is. Again the best advice is to look at the programs you are interested in.

http://medicine.ucsf.edu/education/residency/current/

You'll notice most, but not all, residents are from "brand name" schools. I couldn't find MGH's residency class so I picked a similarly competitive program.

You missed the point, though. Going to a "brand name" school doesn't guarantee you anything. I sincerely doubt that if the OP went to a USNews Top 20 school instead of his state school that his Step 1 score would be any higher.

I know it's an oft-repeated mantra that it's the student and not the school that matters, but I tend to believe it. There are too many confounding variables to be able to draw an accurate conclusion for why big-name schools place students into big-name residencies. Maybe they just have awesome students? But going there doesn't necessarily make you awesome.

 

[SoulinNeed]

You know a lot about the match process, medical school, etc b/c your parents are doctors? Well ****, you might as well call me a radiologist and a wine expert b/c my parents are..

Give me a break.

I never said that I knew a lot, but I have some idea. This is 2013, not 1972. We have plenty of data, and we can logically break down some of it. No, we're not experts, but there are some general ideas that can be drawn. To try to make it seem like I don't know anything because I'm not currently in medical school is nonsense. I have a very close friend who's currently preparing to apply, and I know more than him about the process, lol.

 

[FSU2013]

AOA goes hand in hand with board scores, class rank, and extracurricular activities. Big shocker that people who are competitive for derm are also likely to be nominated to AOA. What you're missing here is that the school you go to can help you quite a bit when all else is equal. When you apply to a competitive specialty or a competitive location for a specialty, you might be looked favorably upon if you came from a well known medical school instead of Mercer University in Georgia or some other lesser-known program.

About half of our AOA students are headed into peds, obgyn, or internal medicine. Residency selection is not a reflection of scholastic performance or competitiveness. FSU for example has an outstanding application and choose to go into EM. The top guy in my class is going general surgery. Top girl in my school is doing Peds.

well, aww shucks, lol.

 

[Lanolin]

I never said that I knew a lot, but I have some idea. This is 2013, not 1972. We have plenty of data, and we can logically break down some of it. No, we're not experts, but there are some general ideas that can be drawn. To try to make it seem like I don't know anything because I'm not currently in medical school is nonsense. I have a very close friend who's currently preparing to apply, and I know more than him about the process, lol.

So those that can't do... teach? Basically? Don't worry though, I was once just like you on this forum.

well, aww shucks, lol.

😍

 

[RogueUnicorn]

How negatively will it affect my chances for a competitive residency (derm)? For a non-competitive residency at a competitive program (IM at MGH)?

don't be so prestige obsessed yo

 

[Medstart108]

You missed the point, though. Going to a "brand name" school doesn't guarantee you anything. I sincerely doubt that if the OP went to a USNews Top 20 school instead of his state school that his Step 1 score would be any higher.

I know it's an oft-repeated mantra that it's the student and not the school that matters, but I tend to believe it. There are too many confounding variables to be able to draw an accurate conclusion for why big-name schools place students into big-name residencies. Maybe they just have awesome students? But going there doesn't necessarily make you awesome.

I agree. Its the student not the school. The reason big name schools send their students to big name residencies is because these big name schools select brighter students who then go on to get into a good residency because they are better. It is not in a residency PD's interest to favor one school over another. They just want the best candidate.

 

[bollywoodlover]

Agreed. It's the students not the school. When the average student is a 36 mcat and 3.9 of course the match list is going to look better. I'm sure the smart kid at a top 20 would have still got into derm at a state school. Even then it's not like top 20s have significantly more people matching into derm than state schools. sure maybe these kids weren't interested in derm, but how can you tell. Maybe actually only 3 ppl at that top 20 were good enough for derm. Unless you want to do your residency at the school you did your med a school at (say a harvard med grad doing their residency at mass general)..There is little advantage.

At the state school I'm matriculating, 13 went into orthopedics. Seems pretty darn good to me for a state school.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Agreed. It's the students not the school. When the average student is a 36 mcat and 3.9 of course the match list is going to look better. I'm sure the smart kid at a top 20 would have still got into derm at a state school. Even then it's not like top 20s have significantly more people matching into derm than state schools. sure maybe these kids weren't interested in derm, but how can you tell. Maybe actually only 3 ppl at that top 20 were good enough for derm. Unless you want to do your residency at the school you did your med a school at (say a harvard med grad doing their residency at mass general)..There is little advantage.

At the state school I'm matriculating, 13 went into orthopedics. Seems pretty darn good to me for a state school.

If you look at the percentage of people going into certain specialties at the top schools vs. the bottom US MD schools, it's generally the same. The difference is in the ranking of these residency programs that they get into. Of course, residency program rankings isn't generally all that important, unless you're trying to go into academic medicine or research.

 

[bollywoodlover]

Ya agreed. Most places you look at top 20 or not about 40 to 50 percent do primary care while 40 to 50 percent specialize. I guess I don't pay to much attention to programs since I won't be heading out to the northeast anytime soon where prestige seems more pronounced. Texan here. No interest in elite academics or research either. In reality very few students will pursue that route. Academics and research pays less than if you do mostly clinical. I guess I don't really get the hype of a prestigious residency to get a prestigious academic job to ultimately get paid less, but I guess some prefer prestige to money. Will never make sense to me.

Not saying that money is the most important thing in life, but logically and economically it should be more important indicator of success than simply what residency you came from or med school.

 

[fahimaz7]

If you look at the percentage of people going into certain specialties at the top schools vs. the bottom US MD schools, it's generally the same. The difference is in the ranking of these residency programs that they get into. Of course, residency program rankings isn't generally all that important, unless you're trying to go into academic medicine or research.

There are no real limitations to residency location and prestige if you are a top candidate in the field that you are applying to. The only possible hitch is that of regional preference (getting into cali from Georgia for example). We have numerous 3.9+ 260/270 students in my class that have interviewed at top programs all around the country in fields like radonc, plastics, ENT, ortho, optho, rads, derm, urology, etc

The real question is are you more likely to get into this elite club from a state school or from an ivy tower? I would venture to guess that it doesn't matter and that the people who would score 260/270 would do so from an online medical school.

The top person in the class above me went into peds/neuro combined program and stayed at my home institution! Why? She wanted to be close to family and will be a leader in her field regardless of where she goes. She was in the 270/280 club for step 1 and step 2!

 

[gasblaster]

Some field are more about pedigree than others. It's still possible to match derm from a low-tier medical school, however it's less likely that it's going to be at one of the big name places. The uber-competitive specialties like rad-onc, derm, plastics, etc have such competitive candidates that pedigree (and connections that arise from pedigree) come into play. In the moderately competitive specialties, I think pedigree becomes less of a factor.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Some field are more about pedigree than others. It's still possible to match derm from a low-tier medical school, however it's less likely that it's going to be at one of the big name places. The uber-competitive specialties like rad-onc, derm, plastics, etc have such competitive candidates that pedigree (and connections that arise from pedigree) come into play. In the moderately competitive specialties, I think pedigree becomes less of a factor.

Once again, if you actually look at the match lists, the number of people going into these specialties seems to be relatively consistent throughout all US MD schools. Now, of course, this also depends on the student's preference, and the ranking of the program, but it's questionable whether or not that's important.

 

[FSU2013]

Some field are more about pedigree than others. It's still possible to match derm from a low-tier medical school, however it's less likely that it's going to be at one of the big name places. The uber-competitive specialties like rad-onc, derm, plastics, etc have such competitive candidates that pedigree (and connections that arise from pedigree) come into play. In the moderately competitive specialties, I think pedigree becomes less of a factor.

I was planning on going into radonc for most of the first three years of med school. The one thing I kept hearing was how small of a field it is, and how much a friend in the field helps. What I consistently heard was that I had to do externships and get some of the 'big names' on my side. Obviously, if you go to a Harvard or Hopkins or UCSF, those people are your advisers; as an outsider, it's a requisite that you do a rotation with them and have exactly 4 weeks to convince them that you deserve their endorsement.

 

[fahimaz7]

I was planning on going into radonc for most of the first three years of med school. The one thing I kept hearing was how small of a field it is, and how much a friend in the field helps. What I consistently heard was that I had to do externships and get some of the 'big names' on my side. Obviously, if you go to a Harvard or Hopkins or UCSF, those people are your advisers; as an outsider, it's a requisite that you do a rotation with them and have exactly 4 weeks to convince them that you deserve their endorsement.

Not radonc, but we did send one guy to BWH and another to UCSF in Rads last year.

 

[gasblaster]

Once again, if you actually look at the match lists, the number of people going into these specialties seems to be relatively consistent throughout all US MD schools. Now, of course, this also depends on the student's preference, and the ranking of the program, but it's questionable whether or not that's important.

I know. I agree that it's fairly consistent percent match into the competitive specialties across the board at US MD schools. I'm saying that when it comes to matching at top programs in the competitive fields, the applicants are often of pedigree. For example, the rad onc residents at Harvard are all from ivy medical schools or other top tier med schools (stanford, vandy, pritzker, etc). I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a top program in a competitive field, it helps coming from a big name school because there other factors that help.

I was planning on going into radonc for most of the first three years of med school. The one thing I kept hearing was how small of a field it is, and how much a friend in the field helps. What I consistently heard was that I had to do externships and get some of the 'big names' on my side. Obviously, if you go to a Harvard or Hopkins or UCSF, those people are your advisers; as an outsider, it's a requisite that you do a rotation with them and have exactly 4 weeks to convince them that you deserve their endorsement.

This.

 

[Frazier]

I know. I agree that it's fairly consistent percent match into the competitive specialties across the board at US MD schools. I'm saying that when it comes to matching at top programs in the competitive fields, the applicants are often of pedigree. For example, the rad onc residents at Harvard are all from ivy medical schools or other top tier med schools (stanford, vandy, pritzker, etc). I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a top program in a competitive field, it helps coming from a big name school because there other factors that help.

Yep.

I was just looking at the residents at a high end ophth residency program earlier today... All very high pedigrees, such as Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Columbia, etc (except for one single European grad which made me both 😕 and ).

 

[fahimaz7]

Yep.

I was just looking at the residents at a high end ophth residency program earlier today... All very high pedigrees, such as Harvard, Hopkins, UCSF, Columbia, etc (except for one single European grad which made me both 😕 and ).

What a lot of pre-med students and medical students don't realize is that there is also a component of choice (applicant) when ending up with a residency. For a lot of students, the idea of moving to UCSF, Stanford, or Boston isn't very attractive. Even if a student interviews at these programs, he or she may end up ranking them very low simply due to the cost of living and hardships for their family. Single individuals and people who are used to be city living are much more likely to decide to stay in these conditions when the time comes to apply for residency.

I really liked MGH, BID, and Stanford, but won't be ranking them in my top 5 since it would be very difficult for me to support my family in those areas. Now if I was a single dude or had two incomes it might be a much more attractive option.

Lots of factors go into ranking a program... Kinda nuts once you find yourself in the midst of it.


- The only person who might actually be able to weigh in on pedigree would be the PD who submits the final ranking for his/her applicants. Most residencies interview 5-15 applicants for each spot that they are offering in order to ensure they match their spots.

 

[gasblaster]

What a lot of pre-med students and medical students don't realize is that there is also a component of choice (applicant) when ending up with a residency. For a lot of students, the idea of moving to UCSF, Stanford, or Boston isn't very attractive. Even if a student interviews at these programs, he or she may end up ranking them very low simply due to the cost of living and hardships for their family. Single individuals and people who are used to be city living are much more likely to decide to stay in these conditions when the time comes to apply for residency.

I really liked MGH, BID, and Stanford, but won't be ranking them in my top 5 since it would be very difficult for me to support my family in those areas. Now if I was a single dude or had two incomes it might be a much more attractive option.

Lots of factors go into ranking a program... Kinda nuts once you find yourself in the midst of it.


- The only person who might actually be able to weigh in on pedigree would be the PD who submits the final ranking for his/her applicants. Most residencies interview 5-15 applicants for each spot that they are offering in order to ensure they match their spots.

This is true. However, even if MGH, Hopkins, UCSF, etc, did not fit what an applicant wanted, I would think a majority would look to go to equivalent or similar programs. If large, urban cities was the issue, there are still a number of top tier programs in smaller cities that would fit (specialty-dependent) like Duke, Michigan, UVa, etc.

Plus, I think we were discussing it the other way around. What the PD looks for in applicants, not what the applicant is looking for in programs.

 

[fahimaz7]

This is true. However, even if MGH, Hopkins, UCSF, etc, did not fit what an applicant wanted, I would think a majority would look to go to equivalent or similar programs. If large, urban cities was the issue, there are still a number of top tier programs in smaller cities that would fit (specialty-dependent) like Duke, Michigan, UVa, etc.

Plus, I think we were discussing it the other way around. What the PD looks for in applicants, not what the applicant is looking for in programs.

It's not like these top programs only interview ivy league students. Interviewing and ranking well is something that no one but the PD knows, so it's kinda a waste of time. The guys at MGH who were from Vandy, Columbia, etc. could have easily been in the lower half of the rank list on the program's side.

Vandy was a top program for me pre-interview and fell out of the top 10 after my interview. But yea, some people go for the name and others go for the city, fit, feel, personality, benefits, COL, spouse's preference, etc.

Wasn't it Duke that didn't match a single spot in Urology last year b/c the PD was such an abrasive personality?

 

[gasblaster]

It's not like these top programs only interview ivy league students. Interviewing and ranking well is something that no one but the PD knows, so it's kinda a waste of time. The guys at MGH who were from Vandy, Columbia, etc. could have easily been in the lower half of the rank list on the program's side.

Vandy was a top program for me pre-interview and fell out of the top 10 after my interview. But yea, some people go for the name and others go for the city, fit, feel, personality, benefits, COL, spouse's preference, etc.

Wasn't it Duke that didn't match a single spot in Urology last year b/c the PD was such an abrasive personality?

My original point was that coming from a top tier med school increases the likelihood that you match (most likely by choice) at another to top tier program. Of course, there are more spots that students from other schools match that those programs as well. You're not going to see a lot of kids from HMS getting pushed out of top programs. Yeah there is a lot more that comes into play with the match, but if you look at the match lists from any of the top schools, you'll find that it's filled with matches at the best programs in the country in whatever specialty.

 

[fahimaz7]

My original point was that coming from a top tier med school increases the likelihood that you match (most likely by choice) at another to top tier program. Of course, there are more spots that students from other schools match that those programs as well. You're not going to see a lot of kids from HMS getting pushed out of top programs. Yeah there is a lot more that comes into play with the match, but if you look at the match lists from any of the top schools, you'll find that it's filled with matches at the best programs in the country in whatever specialty.

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