Max IV Fluid Rate in a healthy person/animal

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DVM4K9

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Well, I posted this question on the emergency and critical care forums... no good answers obtained. I was told to post it here, so here it goes:

In a healthy patient or (dog), what is the max amount of crystalloid I may be able to infuse in terms of ml/kg/hr without getting into complications like pulmonary edema? Assuming the patient is not under general anesthesia. I tried to find an answer on Pubmed, but could not.
Thanks for your help!
DVM😕

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Well, I posted this question on the emergency and critical care forums... no good answers obtained. I was told to post it here, so here it goes:

In a healthy patient or (dog), what is the max amount of crystalloid I may be able to infuse in terms of ml/kg/hr without getting into complications like pulmonary edema? Assuming the patient is not under general anesthesia. I tried to find an answer on Pubmed, but could not.
Thanks for your help!
DVM😕

You didn't get any answers because it's a weird question.

I think adults' kidneys can excrete about 1L/hr of free water.

So, if I had to guess I'd put the max at around 10-20 ml/kg/hr.
 
You didn't get any answers because it's a weird question.

I think adults' kidneys can excrete about 1L/hr of free water.

So, if I had to guess I'd put the max at around 10-20 ml/kg/hr.

That sounds like a good answer and along the lines of what I was thinking -- I wasn't sure what the limit of kidneys was.

However, it is still weird question. The question doesn't say anything about the hydration status of the patient. I've given >1 L/hr of crystalloid to clearly volume depleted patients without a problem.

The other thing related to that is the reserve you have in the lungs to hold extra volume. So you could hemodilute the patient if the kidneys aren't quite keeping up, and still be fine to a degree.

All of this is assuming you haven't given the patient any medications such as diuretics or vasodilators.

Context is also important. If you take this patient and put them on bypass, if I recall correctly, the pump prime volume is >1 L for an adult, but the lungs are no longer in the picture.

I was going to remain silent, but since you voiced your thoughts, I thought I would voice mine.

Too many variables to consider with such a short stem. So I'll just second your thoughts: weird question.
 
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Sorry for not giving more details. By a healthy patient I mean a patient that is not dehydrated, no kidney or cardiovascular issues. I was giving IV fluids to a 6Kg cat that had a urethral stones a week ago (FLUTD in veterinary medicine). He had been blocked for about 24hrs (unable to urinate). It came to our hospital, but the owners did not have any money to run diagnostics (CBC, serum electrolytes, ECG, etc ([*sigh*]). These cats tend to get dehydrated and hyperkalemic, so monitoring serum electrolytes is a "must" (if you can pay for it). So, we unblocked the cat and he was placed on IV fluids (0.9% NaCl). Cats with urethral obstruction tend to pee a lot after they are unblocked (kidney washout phenomenon). So, I put him on 60 ml//hr for about 16hrs (that is 10mL/Kg/hr). The cat was urinating really well. Then I decreased the IV fluid rate to 40ml//hr. He did OK for 12hrs, then he suddenly died. No signs of dyspnea, no lung crackles or wheezes....nothing to suggest fluid overload. On admission no cardiopulmonary issues were detected on physical exam. I told the owner that it is crucial to monitor the serum electrolytes of these patients because they tend to get wacky. Unfortunately, the client had serious financial concerns and we could not offer the "gold standard" in terms of treatment/ICU care. So, I have this mind-boggling issue of "did I kill the cat with too much fluid?" However, I was watching this cat very carefully. He was comfortable, normal respiratory rate, etc... then boom - died. It is very frustrating....

Thanks for your attention! I love having the chance to "crossover" and discuss medical issues with human doctors! You guys have so much resources!

DVM4K9!
 
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that is a lot of fluid! the maintenance rate for a 6 kg baby would be 4cc/kg/hr. so you have the cat 15 times his maintenance rate. if the cat wasn't dehydrated you should have given maintenance plus replace his urine output. You probably made the cat very hyponatremic and his brain swelled. that's my opinion. and if you ask me, it's kind of crazy you deviated for the standard of care based on ability to pay. this is essentially unheard of in the medical community.
 
that is a lot of fluid! the maintenance rate for a 6 kg baby would be 4cc/kg/hr. so you have the cat 15 times his maintenance rate. if the cat wasn't dehydrated you should have given maintenance plus replace his urine output. You probably made the cat very hyponatremic and his brain swelled. that's my opinion. and if you ask me, it's kind of crazy you deviated for the standard of care based on ability to pay. this is essentially unheard of in the medical community.

They will also euthanize their patients for peeing on the rug (again, not something we frequently do in the medical community).
 
Sorry for not giving more details. By a healthy patient I mean a patient that is not dehydrated, no kidney or cardiovascular issues. I was giving IV fluids to a 6Kg cat that had a urethral stones a week ago (FLUTD in veterinary medicine). He had been blocked for about 24hrs (unable to urinate). It came to our hospital, but the owners did not have any money to run diagnostics (CBC, serum electrolytes, ECG, etc ([*sigh*]). These cats tend to get dehydrated and hyperkalemic, so monitoring serum electrolytes is a "must" (if you can pay for it). So, we unblocked the cat and he was placed on IV fluids (0.9% NaCl). Cats with urethral obstruction tend to pee a lot after they are unblocked (kidney washout phenomenon). So, I put him on 60 ml//hr for about 16hrs (that is 10mL/Kg/hr). The cat was urinating really well. Then I decreased the IV fluid rate to 40ml//hr. He did OK for 12hrs, then he suddenly died. No signs of dyspnea, no lung crackles or wheezes....nothing to suggest fluid overload. On admission no cardiopulmonary issues were detected on physical exam. I told the owner that it is crucial to monitor the serum electrolytes of these patients because they tend to get wacky. Unfortunately, the client had serious financial concerns and we could not offer the "gold standard" in terms of treatment/ICU care. So, I have this mind-boggling issue of "did I kill the cat with too much fluid?" However, I was watching this cat very carefully. He was comfortable, normal respiratory rate, etc... then boom - died. It is very frustrating....

Thanks for your attention! I love having the chance to "crossover" and discuss medical issues with human doctors! You guys have so much resources!

DVM4K9!

Did you post this actual post on VIN? A blocked cat, esp for 24hrs, is a critical case, not a healthy patient.

I agree with rocurworld. 10ml/kg/hr is tonnes for a cat and too much for 16hrs. Were your ins matching your outs? Any chance this cat quietly went into ARF, and was still urinating a bit due to the huge amt of fluids? what happened after it died?

and rocurworld, every vet wishes desperately that money wasnt an issue. but we can only do what we can in a bad situation.
 
that is a lot of fluid! the maintenance rate for a 6 kg baby would be 4cc/kg/hr. so you have the cat 15 times his maintenance rate. if the cat wasn't dehydrated you should have given maintenance plus replace his urine output. You probably made the cat very hyponatremic and his brain swelled. that's my opinion. and if you ask me, it's kind of crazy you deviated for the standard of care based on ability to pay. this is essentially unheard of in the medical community.

Hyponatremic? What's the range for serum sodium in cats? NS has 154 mEq/L, and I think the osmolarity comes out to 290 (not at work now so I can't look, but it's in that range).

I would think, if anything, he might have made the cat hypernatremic, not hyponatremic.

Another concern is metabolic acidosis from a large saline infusion.
 
I agree - 0.9% NaCl would not cause hyponatremia. Also, we cannot compare the max fluid rate of human neonate vs an adult cat. Daily maintenance fluids for cats are about 55-60ml/Kg/24hrs (~15ml/hr). So at 60ml/hr I gave 4X the daily maintenance (this condition often causes them to be very dehydrated). The owner could keep the cat only 24hrs in the hospital. No blood work, no antibiotics, nothing else. So, I had to make this cat pee as much as possible. Again - no heart murmur, no pre-existing cardiorespiratory pathology. All the time vitals were WNL. Never had any neuro abnormality. After death not even a drop of fluid came out of his nostrils...
 
I agree - 0.9% NaCl would not cause hyponatremia. Also, we cannot compare the max fluid rate of human neonate vs an adult cat. Daily maintenance fluids for cats are about 55-60ml/Kg/24hrs (~15ml/hr). So at 60ml/hr I gave 4X the daily maintenance (this condition often causes them to be very dehydrated). The owner could keep the cat only 24hrs in the hospital. No blood work, no antibiotics, nothing else. So, I had to make this cat pee as much as possible. Again - no heart murmur, no pre-existing cardiorespiratory pathology. All the time vitals were WNL. Never had any neuro abnormality. After death not even a drop of fluid came out of his nostrils...

From the Merck Vet Manual

"When crystalloids alone are used for replacing intravascular volume causing perfusion deficits, the volume administered is determined by titrating to effect. A pretreatment blood pressure is obtained. Increments of isotonic crystalloids (10-15 mL/kg) are infused IV. The animal's perfusion parameters are assessed between boluses to determine the effect of the therapy. If the desired endpoints of resuscitation have not been met, another bolus is given (up to 90 mL/kg/hr in dogs, 40-55 mL/kg/hr in cats). Careful monitoring is required to avoid interstitial volume overload."

"Maintenance fluid therapy is meant to replace both ongoing and insensible losses. When there is no vomiting, diarrhea, fever, or loss into the third body fluid space, the average maintenance rate is 40-60 mL/kg/day. During fever, the maintenance rate increases an extra 15-20 mL/kg/day. Fluid losses through vomiting, diarrhea, the third body fluid space, and polyuria must also be estimated and replaced."

40-60 ml/kg/day is 1.7-2.5 ml/kg/hr.
6 kg is 10-15 ml/hr.
It looks like you were giving him 10 ml/kg hypotension resuscitation doses of fluid for 16 hours followed by 2.5-4x maintenance for another 12 hours.
That's seems like a significant fluid overload, and likely caused it's death.
It's maintenance rate for the 28 hours was 280-420ml. You administered 1440ml.
That's 3.4-5.1 times maintenance for 28 hours.
A better approach would be to give a 10-20 cc/kg bolus if it seemed unstable or dehydrated.
Start maintenance at 2 cc/kg/hr.
Calculate the urine output hourly and replace it 1:1 over the next hour (in addition to the 2cc/kg maintenance).
Monitor the HR and BP frequently (Q15 or 30), and if it was looking hypovolemic or unstable based on vital signs, just give another 10cc/kg bolus.
That's what I would have done in a human in the ICU. (and some blood work that you could not do in this case)
I bet you would have needed less than 1/2 the fluid you administered if you used targeted fluid therapy.
Of course it could have been septic, etc. who really knows. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. You did the best you could, but I'd recommend that you use a more goal directed fluid therapy approach in the future.
 
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If this were a human, the cause of death would either be hyperkalemia or sepsis, not fluid overload.
 
sounds like the cat died of hypokalemia. Just getting NS shouldn't cause cerebral edema. In fact, NS somewhat shrinks the brain. The sudden death after peeing a lot (losing their K) and receiving a lot of NS (diluting K stores in their body) go along with an arrhythmia after becoming severely hypokalemic.
 
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