"Maxillofacial", "Oral and Maxillofacial", but not just "oral surgery"

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toofache32 said:
Was she a "double-bagger?" You wear a paper sack on your own head in case hers falls off.
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You could always place a frost stitch or two just in case you have the temptation to remove the bags...
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Bifid Uvula said:
You could always place a frost stitch or two just in case you have the temptation to remove the bags...
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Or just have her bend over... You don't have to look at the face from that angle... Plus you can get an obligatory spank in there... "Say my specialty! Say it!"
 
Hello all,

Interesting reading. We as dentist do more than just drill and fill. But the sad fact is that the public as well as many health care professionals do not know the full scope of dentistry. It is very annoying when the time we put in doing years of residency do not get us "paid back" when others see us as just the "drill and fill" providers. I can clearly see how OMFS people or any other specialist get upset at this but the fact is that a dental specialist is still a dentist. An oral and maxillofacial surgeon or a maxillofacial prosthodontist is still a dentist. We should not forget our root and abandon where we came from or what we are. When I was in NYC doing my fellowship, I just got back from the OR in my OR attire when a patient stopped me and ask " You go to the OR? I thought you are a dentist?". Ofcourse, it bothers me but that's what public see us. As long as that DDS, DMD is on your jacket, you are the dentist because that's what you are and the public perception that goes with it. DP
 
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Dr. Dai Phan said:
We should not forget our root and abandon where we came from

As long as that DDS, DMD is on your jacket, you are the dentist because that's what you are and the public perception that goes with it.
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Well, I don't think anyone who has done, or is currently doing, OMS recidency has forgotten their dental roots. And you are absolutely right that the public in general doesn't know squat what we do. What I think bothers most people on this thread, is when other professionals who should know better, call OMFSs "oral surgeons" or even "dentists". Even when they know the full title of the speciality and what it takes to earn it. As has been pointed out this is often times because "oralandmaxillofacialsurgery" is a bit of a mouthful, but sometimes they do it just to annoy us 🙁

I'm proud of being a dentist and of my roots in dentistry, and have the feeling that so are the other OMFSs here on SDN. But I also feel I've earned the right to be called a maxillofacial surgeon.
 
Nobody is arguing that an OMFS is essentially a dentist who specializes in the surgical management of the maxillofacial region, so I think it is more appropriate to refer to an OMFS as a SURGEON. It is the same argument that if you tell an Orthopod, CT surgeon or neurosugeon you are not a surgeon don't forget your roots you started as a just a physician !!!
 
toofache32 said:
Was she a "double-bagger?" You wear a paper sack on your own head in case hers falls off.
Click to expand...

I dont think the double bagging would work for me. Like those folks who cover their eyes just enough so they can peek at the horror movie scenes, I think I would be very tempted to still take a quick gander.
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
When I was in NYC doing my fellowship, I just got back from the OR in my OR attire when a patient stopped me and ask " You go to the OR? I thought you are a dentist?".
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One time in the ER, I was consulted on this MVC guy with a sustained orbital fracture. I go see the guy and his ER nurse just so happened to be there at bedside. I introduced myself (cant remember but probably) as an Oral Surgery Doctor. Even before the the patient had a chance to respond, the nurse replied right in front of the patient, "this patient doesnt have a toothache, he's got eye issues." I just ignored the nurse and didnt even acknowledge her presence the entire time I did an H&P.

I feel your pain, but unfortunately, there are ign'ants even throughout the entire healthcare chain.

It always kinda irks me that when some other non-OMFS residents would see me, they would point to their teeth and act as if they got a toothache. Next time I see a urology/GI/Gen surg resident, I'll be sure to ask them to take a close look at my taint. :meanie:
 
Doggie said:
One time in the ER, I was consulted on this MVC guy with a sustained orbital fracture. I go see the guy and his ER nurse just so happened to be there at bedside. I introduced myself (cant remember but probably) as an Oral Surgery Doctor. Even before the the patient had a chance to respond, the nurse replied right in front of the patient, "this patient doesnt have a toothache, he's got eye issues." I just ignored the nurse and didnt even acknowledge her presence the entire time I did an H&P.

I feel your pain, but unfortunately, there are ign'ants even throughout the entire healthcare chain.

It always kinda irks me that when some other non-OMFS residents would see me, they would point to their teeth and act as if they got a toothache. Next time I see a urology/GI/Gen surg resident, I'll be sure to ask them to take a close look at my taint. :meanie:
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I like your post doggie it made me laugh. Obviously, I am not even a dentist yet (still in d-school). But I have spent some time at residencies and with residents (still don't know **** though). Anyway, where I was at we just introduced ourselves as the "face doctors". To be honest I don't think any patient ever gave a damn the residents were only dentists (it was a single degree program). They were just happy that we just fixed their face. And the other residents and even nurses treated us with the up most respect (I guess this depends on where you go though). Sorry I keep saying us and we, I mean the residents not the lowly extern. Anyway, what really irks me is the people at my dental school. I have had professors say in lecture that single degree OMFS are not trained to stitch up a face laceration. Are you kidding me!! And ER faculty give my classmate a hard time because he is going to a dual degree program and he is just wasting his time getting his MD, because all he will do is pull teeth. Even though as of right now he wants academia more than private practice (not saying that you only pull teeth in private practice). Its seriously ridiculous and these are dentists who should be at least a little more knowledgeable. I can handle the public being uninformed but other dentists should be at least slightly more informed. I love this field because of the surgical aspects and to be constantly challenged. I just wish my fellow dental colleagues would give the field a little respect. Anyway, I can blab about this forever, but I guess all that really matters is that I am going to work as hard as I can to possibly one day call myself an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon.
 
I don't see why everyone gets mad at physicians, nurses, etc for calling OMFS just dentists. That is what a majority of oral surgeons are! They leave their residency, with tremendous training, and then go pull teeth and place implants. You're a dentist in their mind, and everyone elses.

Also, what about all these old physicians and surgeons who may have had OMFS residents in their programs when they were residents themselves. Maybe back in the day at their program, the OMFS residents did nothing but pull teeth and the occasional mandible.

The truth is though, that 'dentist' is a perfectly honest representation of most of the PRACTICING OMFS...right? You can't hate them for calling what they see...

Besides...even the ones who know the truth are just jealous. so let them snicker and point all they want. They know OMFS is awesome.
 
Doggie said:
One time in the ER, I was consulted on this MVC guy with a sustained orbital fracture. I go see the guy and his ER nurse just so happened to be there at bedside. I introduced myself (cant remember but probably) as an Oral Surgery Doctor. Even before the the patient had a chance to respond, the nurse replied right in front of the patient, "this patient doesnt have a toothache, he's got eye issues." I just ignored the nurse and didnt even acknowledge her presence the entire time I did an H&P.

I feel your pain, but unfortunately, there are ign'ants even throughout the entire healthcare chain.
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Again, if every omfs resident began to refer to him/herself as Maxillofacial, Maxfax, or face surgeon... this would help to put a lot of this to an end. No?
 
i can't believe this thread is still going. Frankly, it's starting to sound like a bunch of whining. I personally don't really care what ER nurses think I do. Just focus on doing solid work and your reputation will develop. When I was a Pgy 1,2,3 etc , I too wanted to prove that we can do it all and we are not just dentists. At this point, I'm happy if the patient understands what I have to offer them and they sense the confidence and are at ease that they will get the right treatment. I guess this all sounds cliche but I think it makes things a lot simpler to look at this way. Don't get me wrong; I have a low threshold for letting other services know what our scope is when it becomes an issue. Our hospital doesn't have a strong ENT or Plastics presence at all and we get weird consults like temporal bone fractures, skull base fractures, etc). Those are times when I have to say "Hey, I'm just an OMS" Also, I get to say it when trauma surg wants to turf some dude with a c-collar and ortho injuries to our service because they don't have any trauma surg issues anymore. Then I get the "oh you know his neck isn't broken, he's just drunk and is on PCP and thats why the collar is on". My response usually is "ok, if you know his neck isn't broken, take the collar off and i'll gladly take the pt." God sometimes I love being the dentist.
 
scalpel, if you don't mind, what program are you at?

thanks
 
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I'm gonna chime in here for the Canadian perspective.....

As a specialist in Maxillofacial surgery you are doing all of us a disservice calling yourself and "Oral Surgeon". It is basically "dental surgeon" to those who don't know. In Canada, the ENT and PRS guys have been slandering our specialty for years at every opportunity by calling us "Dental surgeons/Oral surgeons/Tooth Fairy"- they make a point, a notable/OBVIOUS point of calling us ORAL/DENTAL surgeons to every single nurse/medical student/lay person that will listen.

It may not sound like a big deal but it is. It is really a war of attrition. In Canada, when the funding for our (gasp!) public health care system gets dished out the policy makers/RN administrators/MD's/public perception is what they've last/mostly been told. That we are glorified tooth shuckers, without any knowledge or surgical skill- which is incredibly inaccurate. It hurts our specialty immensely and irrevocably in some cases.

I didn't do 7 years of residency hell, learn everything about the head and neck to be considered a second rate pseudo-surgeon. It is a complete disservice to the excellent and ambitious surgeons who paved the way for us and the ones that continue to push the boundaries/scope.

It doesn't make you sound like a douche to call yourself a Maxillofacial Surgeon, or to correct people when they are WRONG. Do Cardiologists accept being called general practitioners/hospitalists/internal medicine? No. So why should we?

Anyhow, about the douche thing......if you are too lazy to say "Maxillofacial" or even just "Facial" then you should have gone into Perio, or you have some reservations about your training. "Oral Surgeon" hurts us who are trying to push...
And we need to make a unified push together (single/dual degree, full scope/mini-scope, all of us), which is another topic in itself. There is little doubt that the ENT/PRS groups have been unified on one thing- their squishing of Maxillofacial surgery.

MaxFax
 
MaxFax002 said:
I'm gonna chime in here for the Canadian perspective.....

As a specialist in Maxillofacial surgery you are doing all of us a disservice calling yourself and "Oral Surgeon". It is basically "dental surgeon" to those who don't know. In Canada, the ENT and PRS guys have been slandering our specialty for years at every opportunity by calling us "Dental surgeons/Oral surgeons/Tooth Fairy"- they make a point, a notable/OBVIOUS point of calling us ORAL/DENTAL surgeons to every single nurse/medical student/lay person that will listen.

It may not sound like a big deal but it is. It is really a war of attrition. In Canada, when the funding for our (gasp!) public health care system gets dished out the policy makers/RN administrators/MD's/public perception is what they've last/mostly been told. That we are glorified tooth shuckers, without any knowledge or surgical skill- which is incredibly inaccurate. It hurts our specialty immensely and irrevocably in some cases.

I didn't do 7 years of residency hell, learn everything about the head and neck to be considered a second rate pseudo-surgeon. It is a complete disservice to the excellent and ambitious surgeons who paved the way for us and the ones that continue to push the boundaries/scope.

It doesn't make you sound like a douche to call yourself a Maxillofacial Surgeon, or to correct people when they are WRONG. Do Cardiologists accept being called general practitioners/hospitalists/internal medicine? No. So why should we?

Anyhow, about the douche thing......if you are too lazy to say "Maxillofacial" or even just "Facial" then you should have gone into Perio, or you have some reservations about your training. "Oral Surgeon" hurts us who are trying to push...
And we need to make a unified push together (single/dual degree, full scope/mini-scope, all of us), which is another topic in itself. There is little doubt that the ENT/PRS groups have been unified on one thing- their squishing of Maxillofacial surgery.

MaxFax
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Wow. Great post. While I agree 1000%, I'm even more impressed that you dug into a 7 year old post to preach. Either way, it needed to be said. All the best.
 
An old topic but one that we all continue to face. When I was a lonely intern, I used to correct other services and nurses but it becomes so tiring. Unfortunately, I'm guilty of recently not going the extra mile to correct those who continue to call us things like "ORAL" (w/o the mention of surgery) or "DENTIST." Patients become confused when we talk about operating on their face as dentists.
 
This is a critical subject for our specialty and there is serious consideration of a name change. This has been discussed both by AAOMS and CALAOMS. I published a randomized double blinded survey comparing people's perception of "Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon" versus "Oral Surgeon." I have attached the paper that I published. Interested to hear your thoughts.
 

Attachments

Tufts R Us said:
What are they going to change the name to?
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Oral and Facial Surgeon.

"Facial" would not be an inaccurate descriptor considering how frontal sinus fracture, NOE, lac's, bicoronal, genioplasty, and obviously Lefort's/BSSO's are commonplace among OMFS residencies.
 
The Loma Linda group published an article a couple months ago in JOMS comparing the perception of the scope of practice of the Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon versus the Oral and Facial Surgeon, with results favoring the latter.

I think this is a fascinating discussing. As the speciality continues to expand its scope, I think branding and marketing the specialty has a significant role in the success of these endeavors. I think the colloquialism "oral surgeon" almost certainly harms this effort and I don't see any disadvantage from the transition from "maxillofacial" to "facial".
 
scandalouslj said:
I agree with some of the other posters. I have mad respect for the OMFS guys, but unfortunately your own brethren are to blame for the oral surgery mess. We have 6 oral surgeons in the city im living in, and only one takes trauma call. The rest pretty much stick to wisdom teeth, etc. Thus the other 6 ENT's end up taking pretty much all the trauma call.
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This is the main point. Oral surgeons in the US = wisdom teeth extraordinaires. What are the stats? 9 in 10 oral surgeons quit hospital to pursue private practice (which = wisdom teeth)? There's nothing wrong with that, hell for the money that's all I'd do. But to claim higher ranking just from sittin through 4-6 more years of residency? the knowledge of which goes to waste after a decade of chuckin' thirds, whose to blame?

EuroOMFS said:
No, this is true. Many countries in Europe use the term "craniomaxillofacial".
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I may be totally wrong from what I remember my OMFS director saying in dental school, but he said in Europe (or at least his country), it is split into two different specialties - there's a 2 year 'oral surgery' route which focuses on exodontia, and a longer 4 or 6 year 'maxillofacial surgery' route which are the ones that do trauma, hospital call, etc.
 
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