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"Maxillofacial", "Oral and Maxillofacial", but not just "oral surgery"

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Dr.Millisevert

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Craniofacial/Pediatric Maxillofacial surgery fellowship for Plastic surgery graduates

They refer to us simply as "oral surgeons" and they train plastics graduates in "pediatric maxillofacial surgery". :(

Sorry, but didn't the title of our specialty officially change from oral surgery to "oral and Maxillofacial surgery" like over 30 years ago??? Why oh why are people still referring to us as "oral surgeons"?

It doesn't help that many in our own specialty refer to themselves as "oral surgeons". Please emphasize the second half of our specialty when referring to our training and your profession, many people worked very hard for this!! Unless of course you don't mind loosing scope. We learn to do a hell of a lot more than just pull teeth. :thumbup: Lets make sure we reflect this.


Even ENT is dropping the ears, nose, throat title and preferring to refer to themselves as "Head and Neck surgeons" as their official title.

Some of the OMS guys seem to be going in the opposite direction and helping us downgrade to just the mouth. I almost died the other day when some guy referred to me as a "mandibular surgeon". Yeah, we train for 16 years to operate on one bone! LOL... :laugh:

Lets start referring to ourselves as "Maxillofacial surgeons" (the mouth is implied already in the word maxillofacial, just as ears, nose, and throat are within the "head and neck").


Not happy Jan!
 

EuroOMFS

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I was once refered to as "the toothfairy" ("Oh! There comes the Toothfairy") by an ED nurse, when I was called down there to suture a laceration. Needless to say, we had a little talk.

Recently, I was at a symposium on mulitdiciplinary approach to treating H&N cancer. One of the ENT guys there made a point of refering to OMSs as "dentists", during his presentation.

I agree. We must stand firm, use the "maxillofacial" part of our title and respect what our predecessors have fought for.
 

dravid

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but it takes forever to get that out of your mouth

I'm just gonna call myself Mr X and let everyone figure out what I do themselves
 

umkcdds

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who cares? cry me a river and get over yourself.
 

Xigris14

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I can not stand when other health related professionals refer to oral and maxillofacial surgeons as "dentist" or the teeth specialist....The list goes on. It is our fault for not correcting the ignorance and allowing this **** to continue. I correct everyone I know who does this with some attitude. What ignorant people. I stop people and say "would you like me to inform you what our specialty is all about and what I am capable of doing?" You would be surprised most of the time when others enjoy learning what are specialty does. But then there are others who already know this and are just pieces of ****.
Well what can we do?
We need to educate everyone from medical students to nurses to the lay public. This will help spread the word. For example that article from California that stated Do you want a face lift with that filling? an obvious blow to our specialty from the plastic surgeons grouping our specialty as general dentist. Again ignorance. I actually wrote that surgeon and never got a response.
The more we further educate our brothers and sisters through fellowships and expand our specialty will we only be accepted in society to overlap our surgical services with are competitors. We can not narrow our scope to teeth and titanium. I refuse to do this when I complete residency.
I can not emphasize enough the importance of this because it is so true that many professionals and patients have no clue we do anything other that pull teeth, or are surprised cosmetics does not mean cosmetic dentistry.
Continue to speak out about this wonderful specialty. There is honestly no better surgical specialty than the one we are currently in. If we can overcome these surgical racial boundaries we will overcome the stereotypic attitude from most professionals.
 

Dr.Millisevert

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who cares? cry me a river and get over yourself.

Get over myself? This is not about ego. Its about protecting the scope of our specialty that our predecessors have fought for.
 

Dr.Millisevert

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The more we further educate our brothers and sisters through fellowships and expand our specialty will we only be accepted in society to overlap our surgical services with are competitors. We can not narrow our scope to teeth and titanium. I refuse to do this when I complete residency.


There is honestly no better surgical specialty than the one we are currently in. If we can overcome these surgical racial boundaries we will overcome the stereotypic attitude from most professionals.

Thank you. much agreed
 

Dr.Millisevert

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but it takes forever to get that out of your mouth

I'm just gonna call myself Mr X and let everyone figure out what I do themselves

Well you can shorten it to Maxfacs ("Maxfax") or tell lay people you are the "face surgeon".

The term "oral surgeon" is not an accurate term for our specialty and does not encapsulate our training and scope of practice.
 

umkcdds

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Get over myself? This is not about ego.

It is our fault for not correcting the ignorance and allowing this **** to continue. I correct everyone I know who does this with some attitude. What ignorant people. I stop people and say "would you like me to inform you what I am capable of doing?"

not about ego huh?

if i call you an "arrogant a**hole," does that make you an arrogant a**hole?

if i call you an "oral surgeon," does that limit what you are capable of doing?

no wonder the nurses at hospitals refer to, "the typical surgeon."
 

Xigris14

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Not sure what your talking about UMKC DDS?
Who are you and what experience do you have to even discuss on this forum?
 

IcedOMFS

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Craniofacial/Pediatric Maxillofacial surgery fellowship for Plastic surgery graduates

They refer to us simply as "oral surgeons" and they train plastics graduates in "pediatric maxillofacial surgery". :(

Sorry, but didn't the title of our specialty officially change from oral surgery to "oral and Maxillofacial surgery" like over 30 years ago??? Why oh why are people still referring to us as "oral surgeons"?

It doesn't help that many in our own specialty refer to themselves as "oral surgeons". Please emphasize the second half of our specialty when referring to our training and your profession, many people worked very hard for this!! Unless of course you don't mind loosing scope. We learn to do a hell of a lot more than just pull teeth. :thumbup: Lets make sure we reflect this.


Even ENT is dropping the ears, nose, throat title and preferring to refer to themselves as "Head and Neck surgeons" as their official title.

Some of the OMS guys seem to be going in the opposite direction and helping us downgrade to just the mouth. I almost died the other day when some guy referred to me as a "mandibular surgeon". Yeah, we train for 16 years to operate on one bone! LOL... :laugh:

Lets start referring to ourselves as "Maxillofacial surgeons" (the mouth is implied already in the word maxillofacial, just as ears, nose, and throat are within the "head and neck").


Not happy Jan!


Interesting. I've met Joe Gruss a couple of times. I did always get the feeling that he had a thing against oral surgeons. The stupid thing about his website is that it talks about orthognathic surgery experience with oral surgeons in the program... OMFS has a strong presence in Seattle, particularly at Harborview, the level 1 center. They take 50% or more of the trauma call... And I don't think that there are any OMFS involved in orthognathics with a plastics fellowship. There's an OMFS orthognathic fellowship based across the street at Swedish with Bloomquist!!!

I agree though, that we do need to be clear about our title. I lost count of the times I hear some ignorant nurse going, "You guys do these cases???" as we are turning a coronal flap for a panfacial smash...
 

Dr.Millisevert

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Interesting. I've met Joe Gruss a couple of times. I did always get the feeling that he had a thing against oral surgeons. The stupid thing about his website is that it talks about orthognathic surgery experience with oral surgeons in the program... OMFS has a strong presence in Seattle, particularly at Harborview, the level 1 center. They take 50% or more of the trauma call... And I don't think that there are any OMFS involved in orthognathics with a plastics fellowship. There's an OMFS orthognathic fellowship based across the street at Swedish with Bloomquist!!!

I agree though, that we do need to be clear about our title. I lost count of the times I hear some ignorant nurse going, "You guys do these cases???" as we are turning a coronal flap for a panfacial smash...


The very fact that they are learning pediatric maxillofacial/craniofacial surgery from an OMFS, you would think that they would give the OMFS a little more respect than that.

I wonder what maxillofacial surgeons are teaching the plastics fellows there?

Are any of the UW OMFS faculty involved with this craniofacial fellowship?

Out of curiosity... do the residents at the UW seattle omfs residency get to see many craniofacial cases?
 

IcedOMFS

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The very fact that they are learning pediatric maxillofacial/craniofacial surgery from an OMFS, you would think that they would give the OMFS a little more respect than that.

I wonder what maxillofacial surgeons are teaching the plastics fellows there?

Are any of the UW OMFS faculty involved with this craniofacial fellowship?

Out of curiosity... do the residents at the UW seattle omfs residency get to see many craniofacial cases?


This is what I am saying - I don't think there is an OMFS participating in the plastics fellowship there...

I think the OMFS residents at UW do a fair number of syndromic craniofacial cases at the Children's Hospital. RED distraction and such.
 
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toofache32

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This is starting to sound like an optometry thread.
 
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1992Corolla

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Needless to say, ur a douche.

You spelled 'you're' wrong. I know, it is ******ed to correct spelling on the internet. Ur comment was ******ed too. I guess we're even.

Why all the hate? If you are a dentist and someone calls you a hygeinist then you would politely correct them, right? If I was the foreman of a construction crew and some one called me a hot tender, then they would get fired.:D

I am just saying, there are ways to correct someone w/o sounding like a douche.

On the other hand, some people might know what the scope of your training is but they don't want to say the whole thing. "Please page oral and maxillofacial surgery" doesn't quite roll off the tongue, despite the fact that the person knows the scope of training. Not everyone in the US even knows that dentists go to school for four years and practically learn the same stuff as the MD's.

You could always ask someone to call you maxfacs or OMFS or OMS, but there is a fine line between coming off as a 'douche' and a ' he is a really nice surgeon'.

I don't think Dr.Millisevert is trying to come off as a douche, merely trying to get his fellow bretheren in on his crusade to help fix a small flaw in the language of others.

Question: Could this improper name calling ever result in a hospital telling the residency program to only do oral surgery though? Just curious to see how the politics along these lines work.
 

Dr.Millisevert

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You could always ask someone to call you maxfacs or OMFS or OMS, but there is a fine line between coming off as a 'douche' and a ' he is a really nice surgeon'.

I don't think Dr.Millisevert is trying to come off as a douche, merely trying to get his fellow bretheren in on his crusade to help fix a small flaw in the language of others.

Question: Could this improper name calling ever result in a hospital telling the residency program to only do oral surgery though? Just curious to see how the politics along these lines work.

Thanks for that. I don't think that the hospital will ever be able to tell the residency what cases they are or aren't able to see. However, continuing to refer to ourselves and allowing others to refer to us as simply "oral surgeons" infers just that... that we limit our practice only to operating on the teeth and gums. This 1. does not give the public an accurate idea of what we actually do, and 2. this also gives fodder to the firery plastics campaign to keep us from ever taking any craniofacial or cosmetic cases. I'm simply trying to help raise the image of our specialty and I think it would help if we learned a lesson from the ENT guys and started to use a title that was more accurate of our training and practice. Maybe then we wouldn't have to explain and fight as much to keep what we have. So I support the use of "Maxillofacial surgeon, Maxfacs, and OMS", but not "oral surgeon".

EuroOMFS, please correct me if I'm wrong.. but I've heard that in Europe they refer to themseleves as, "Craniomaxillofacial surgeons" , (and Here as well). I love this because one.. "oral" is already included in the craniomaxillofacial complex, and two this will protect to some extint from plastics pushing us from craniofacial aspect of our scope. :thumbup:

thoughts?
 

shabu2

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OMFS has a strong presence in Seattle, particularly at Harborview, the level 1 center. They take 50% or more of the trauma call... And I don't think that there are any OMFS involved in orthognathics with a plastics fellowship. There's an OMFS orthognathic fellowship based across the street at Swedish with Bloomquist!!!

Not entirely true. Did an externship and took call while in school. They don't get the entire scope of trauma at harborview. The service gets all the mandibles they can handle, but the only time other hard tissue facial trauma comes their way is when it includes a mandible. Pure midface, frontal, etc goes to ENT (H&N) or plastics. That was two years ago, but might have changed.
 

shabu2

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Thanks for that. I don't think that the hospital will ever be able to tell the residency what cases they are or aren't able to see. However, continuing to refer to ourselves and allowing others to refer to us as simply "oral surgeons" infers just that... that we limit our practice only to operating on the teeth and gums. This 1. does not give the public an accurate idea of what we actually do, and 2. this also gives fodder to the firery plastics campaign to keep us from ever taking any craniofacial or cosmetic cases. I'm simply trying to help raise the image of our specialty and I think it would help if we learned a lesson from the ENT guys and started to use a title that was more accurate of our training and practice. Maybe then we wouldn't have to explain and fight as much to keep what we have. So I support the use of "Maxillofacial surgeon, Maxfacs, and OMS", but not "oral surgeon".

EuroOMFS, please correct me if I'm wrong.. but I've heard that in Europe they refer to themseleves as, "Craniomaxillofacial surgeons" , (and Here as well). I love this because one.. "oral" is already included in the craniomaxillofacial complex, and two this will protect to some extint from plastics pushing us from craniofacial aspect of our scope. :thumbup:

thoughts?

Hmmm, probably a lot of programs that aren't as broad scope as you would like and there are plenty of surgeons who just prefer, or can handle only "oral surgery" procedures. Hardly any local surgeons here in the ATL take call at the outlying hospitals and the simplest cases try to get turfed to our service. Local hospitals say they don't have a H&N surgeon on staff. Sad but true.
 

Dr.Millisevert

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Not entirely true. Did an externship and took call while in school. They don't get the entire scope of trauma at harborview. The service gets all the mandibles they can handle, but the only time other hard tissue facial trauma comes their way is when it includes a mandible. Pure midface, frontal, etc goes to ENT (H&N) or plastics. That was two years ago, but might have changed.

They rotate through a number of hospitals there don't they? Do they get more trauma experience elsewhere? I know they head down to portland for H/N.
 

IcedOMFS

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They rotate through a number of hospitals there don't they? Do they get more trauma experience elsewhere? I know they head down to portland for H/N.

This must have changed since I externed there 5 years ago or so... When I was there they had their share of isolated orbits, NOEs, frontals, etc...
 

scalpel2008

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Not entirely true. Did an externship and took call while in school. They don't get the entire scope of trauma at harborview. The service gets all the mandibles they can handle, but the only time other hard tissue facial trauma comes their way is when it includes a mandible. Pure midface, frontal, etc goes to ENT (H&N) or plastics. That was two years ago, but might have changed.

i've heard the same. they do their midface in oregon
 

scandalouslj

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I agree with some of the other posters. I have mad respect for the OMFS guys, but unfortunately your own brethren are to blame for the oral surgery mess. We have 6 oral surgeons in the city im living in, and only one takes trauma call. The rest pretty much stick to wisdom teeth, etc. Thus the other 6 ENT's end up taking pretty much all the trauma call. I was amazed during my ENT rotation, because the ENT guys were getting more oral surgery, oral pathology, in their offices everyday than 2 of the oral surgeons I know! I mean things like mucoceles, etc that I would have thought the MD would have referred to a dentist or oral surgeon were all being referred to the ENT's here and they diagnosed it as fast as I could, and said it was a regular occurance! But basically the only thing the ENT guys werent doing was working on teeth, they were doing IMF, uvula reductions, frenulectomies, etc! And I am noticing that is starting to be a trend in a lot places. Oral surgeons just dont want to take call as obviously it is not conducive to a good life style, and on top of that its just not financially advantageous. One of my friends going through an OMFS residency right now in NY said that he loves doing the facial reconstruction stuff, but he could make twice as much pulling some wisdom teeth and have less hassle and thus thats what a lot of Oral surgeons are doing.
 
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Dr.Millisevert

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I agree with some of the other posters. I have mad respect for the OMFS guys, but unfortunately your own brethren are to blame for the oral surgery mess. We have 6 oral surgeons in the city im living in, and only one takes trauma call. The rest pretty much stick to wisdom teeth, etc. Thus the other 6 ENT's end up taking pretty much all the trauma call. I was amazed during my ENT rotation, because the ENT guys were getting more oral surgery, oral pathology, in their offices everyday than 2 of the oral surgeons I know! I mean things like mucoceles, etc that I would have thought the MD would have referred to a dentist or oral surgeon were all being referred to the ENT's here and they diagnosed it as fast as I could, and said it was a regular occurance! But basically the only thing the ENT guys werent doing was working on teeth, they were doing IMF, uvula reductions, frenulectomies, etc! And I am noticing that is starting to be a trend in a lot places. Oral surgeons just dont want to take call as obviously it is not conducive to a good life style, and on top of that its just not financially advantageous. One of my friends going through an OMFS residency right now in NY said that he loves doing the facial reconstruction stuff, but he could make twice as much pulling some wisdom teeth and have less hassle and thus thats what a lot of Oral surgeons are doing.

This doesn't happen everywhere. It is very regional... who does what where can vary widely. Reimbursements have lowered for all medical specialties... this would be no diff than an ENT sticking to private practice to do tubes all day. It is very tempting when you have a family to take care of and debt to pay off.. However, I agree with you that we all need to take our fair share of trauma as this keeps our skills current.. both (ENT and OMFS). :thumbup:
 

NileBDS

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This doesn't happen everywhere. It is very regional... who does what where can vary widely. Reimbursements have lowered for all medical specialties... this would be no diff than an ENT sticking to private practice to do tubes all day. It is very tempting when you have a family to take care of and debt to pay off.. However, I agree with you that we all need to take our fair share of trauma as this keeps our skills current.. both (ENT and OMFS). :thumbup:

So, which region are you practicing in ?
 

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You spelled 'you're' wrong. I know, it is ******ed to correct spelling on the internet. Ur comment was ******ed too. I guess we're even.
I deliberately spelt it that way because my comment was sort of silly/sarcastic. However, I don't blame you for thinking that maybe I don't know how to spell (that I might be a foreign person). After all, that was post #1 for me according to SDN. It's not like you could go back and check my post history to evaluate my english skills.

Oh, BUT WAIT, I had posted before in the MGH thread. Mysteriously, that thread has been totally deleted from this forum AGAIN. Is somebody from MGH or Mayo a moderator on this forum? I mean, really, getting an entire thread deleted? :rolleyes: :confused:

In my view, this is just another instance of oral surgeons taking themselves WAY too seriously.

Why all the hate? If you are a dentist and someone calls you a hygeinist then you would politely correct them, right? If I was the foreman of a construction crew and some one called me a hot tender, then they would get fired.:D
Come on? 'Tooth fairy?' Sounds to me like the nurse way just trying to be friendly/cute.

I don't think Dr.Millisevert is trying to come off as a douche.
I wasn't quoting Dr.Millisevert.
 

Calidental

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Craniofacial/Pediatric Maxillofacial surgery fellowship for Plastic surgery graduates

They refer to us simply as "oral surgeons" and they train plastics graduates in "pediatric maxillofacial surgery". :(

Sorry, but didn't the title of our specialty officially change from oral surgery to "oral and Maxillofacial surgery" like over 30 years ago??? Why oh why are people still referring to us as "oral surgeons"?

It doesn't help that many in our own specialty refer to themselves as "oral surgeons". Please emphasize the second half of our specialty when referring to our training and your profession, many people worked very hard for this!! Unless of course you don't mind loosing scope. We learn to do a hell of a lot more than just pull teeth. :thumbup: Lets make sure we reflect this.


Even ENT is dropping the ears, nose, throat title and preferring to refer to themselves as "Head and Neck surgeons" as their official title.

Some of the OMS guys seem to be going in the opposite direction and helping us downgrade to just the mouth. I almost died the other day when some guy referred to me as a "mandibular surgeon". Yeah, we train for 16 years to operate on one bone! LOL... :laugh:

Lets start referring to ourselves as "Maxillofacial surgeons" (the mouth is implied already in the word maxillofacial, just as ears, nose, and throat are within the "head and neck").


Not happy Jan!

I take your point to an extent. As prosthodontists we go through the second most strenuous specialty after OMFS and hence get reasonably ticked off to be referred to as restorative dentists or prosthetics. This is sometimes done even by specialists, albeit most likely less successful ones who usually are only of a quality to attract GPs so it is unintentional. Good on you Millesevert!
 

EuroOMFS

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EuroOMFS, please correct me if I'm wrong.. but I've heard that in Europe they refer to themseleves as, "Craniomaxillofacial surgeons" , (and Here as well). I love this because one.. "oral" is already included in the craniomaxillofacial complex, and two this will protect to some extint from plastics pushing us from craniofacial aspect of our scope. :thumbup:

thoughts?

No, this is true. Many countries in Europe use the term "craniomaxillofacial". The european journal is called "The Journal of Craniomaxillofacial surgery".

The Germans use the term "Mund-, Kiefer- und Geschichtskirurgi", which litterally means "Mouth-, Jaw- and Face surgery", but there are some units there that call them selves "Craniomaxillofacial surgery unit".

In the scandinavian countries, the title translates into "Tooth, mouth and jawsurgery". I've never really cared for this title, since it 1) doesn´t cover the "facial" aspect of our training, and 2) it implies that we do surgery on teeth, which is not really true. We do surgery on the jaws, often around teeth, but rearly on the teeth themselves. That would be doing fillings. But now I´m nitpicking.....

The British use "Oral and maxillofacial surgery" most of the time.
 

armorshell

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Anyone every think that saying "Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon" is just too much of a mouthful?

Also, you correct a single ENT who calls you an "oral surgeon" and all they're going to hear is the dentist trying to make himself look like one of the "big boys."
 

Dr.Millisevert

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No, this is true. Many countries in Europe use the term "craniomaxillofacial". The european journal is called "The Journal of Craniomaxillofacial surgery".

I quite like this.. I wonder if the title will catch on in other areas of the world. :thumbup:
 

Dr.Millisevert

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Anyone every think that saying "Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon" is just too much of a mouthful?

Yeah, I agree its a mouthful. This is why we shorten it to "Maxillofacial surgeon", or even shorter "Maxfacs surgeon".

"Plastic and Reconstructive surgery" is also a mouthful, as well as "Otolaryngology".. but by shortening either one to "Plastics" or "ENT" or "Head and Neck" they haven't limited their scope. When you chop down "oral and maxillofacial" to just "oral".. you're doing us an injustice. Which is why.. "Maxillofacial" and/or "Maxfacs" is a better option. :thumbup:
 

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Yeah, I agree its a mouthful. This is why we shorten it to "Maxillofacial surgeon", or even shorter "Maxfacs surgeon".

"Plastic and Reconstructive surgery" is also a mouthful, as well as "Otolaryngology".. but by shortening either one to "Plastics" or "ENT" or "Head and Neck" they haven't limited their scope. When you chop down "oral and maxillofacial" to just "oral".. you're doing us an injustice. Which is why.. "Maxillofacial" and/or "Maxfacs" is a better option. :thumbup:

With the limited education of the patients in my hospital, I really dont bother telling them more than "I am an oral surgeon." Even some of the medical students at the university have trouble with the name of our specialty - to them it's either OSMF or OMSF. :smuggrin:
 
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armorshell

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How about Board Accredited Maxillofacial surgeon? I can see it now, armorshell DDS, BAMF
 

Dr.Millisevert

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How about Board Accredited Maxillofacial surgeon? I can see it now, armorshell DDS, BAMF

Or maybe.. Board Accredited Dento-Alveolar & Stomatological Surgeon.

Armorshell, DDS, BADASS :)
 

Dr.Millisevert

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With the limited education of the patients in my hospital, I really dont bother telling them more than "I am an oral surgeon." :smuggrin:


Why not tell them you are the face surgeon?
 

IcedOMFS

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Or maybe.. Board Accredited Dento-Alveolar & Stomatological Surgeon.

Armorshell, DDS, BADASS :)

Oh ****... I had some dick-wad of a plastic surgeon call me "Stomatologist" at an AO course once... It took some restraint not to punch him in the junk...
 

IcedOMFS

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Even some of the medical students at the university have trouble with the name of our specialty - to them it's either OSMF or OMSF. :smuggrin:


I've answered consults for "Oro-Maxillary Facial Surgery" on several occasions. I love those ones. At least the med students are trying...
 
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Bifid Uvula

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I've answered consults for "Oro-Maxillary Facial Surgery" on several occasions. I love those ones. At least the med students are trying...


I like it when they say... "Are you Oro and Faxillo-Macial Surgery?"

To which I reply, yes... we are the "Oral STurgeons"

Then they say, aren't Sturgeons a type of fish?

And I again reply "yep"... and they look puzzled as hell... :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
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1992Corolla

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I like it when they say... "Are you Oro and Faxillo-Macial Surgery?"

To which I reply, yes... we are the "Oral STurgeons"

Then they say, aren't Sturgeons a type of fish?

And I again reply "yep"... and they look puzzled as hell... :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Tears man, actual tears:laugh:
 
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shabu2

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They rotate through a number of hospitals there don't they? Do they get more trauma experience elsewhere? I know they head down to portland for H/N.

I think mentioned they do 9 months there, but what a pain in the arse. I thought covering 5 hospitals within 5 miles was a pain here in ATL, but you actually have to move???!!!!! Its not like you could commute from Seattle to Portland. But the experience at Emmanuel Legacy (Portland) is world class.:)
 

flat4

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One nurse referred to me as the oral and maxillo sexual surgeon. No joke. I wonder what was on her mind.
 
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flat4

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Did you spend some quality time in the supply closet with her afterward?
I wouldn't call it quality but it did the job. Thank god the lights were out:eek:
 

toofache32

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I wouldn't call it quality but it did the job. Thank god the lights were out:eek:

Was she a "double-bagger?" You wear a paper sack on your own head in case hers falls off.
 
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flat4

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Was she a "double-bagger?" You wear a paper sack on your own head in case hers falls off.
I just put some Tegaderms over both my eyes but I'll keep that one in my bag of tricks:) So on another note, was reading Ellis's new paper in JOMS 3/08 while dropping a deuce. So which one of you guys broke off the JP drain while removing it from the patient (P424) :laugh:?
 
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