I know that here on SDN the dogma is that Mayo is the most amazing place on the planet. Small class size, incredible facilities, great clinical training--pretty much God's gift to the medical student. I'm wondering why the same hype isn't surrounding CCLCM. It seems that they are very similar in terms of values and, of course, CCLCM is FREE. Is it b/c CCLCM is still fairly new and hasn't stood the test of time like Mayo? Thanks!
Mayo vs. CCLCM. SDN Bias?
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probably because most people have never heard of it before.
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Yes and cclcm is also 5 years. Furthermore the population of med students there is perhaps not the most nornal.
why do you say that?
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Just what I've heard. One of my co-residents was a case grad. He said I made a great decision to not attend.
It is 5 years, and a year is required to do research. It's goal is pretty similar to MD/PhD programs, so I think a lot of people are turned off by that.
It's not like Cleveland Clinic isn't a big name like Mayo (though Mayo probably is more known).
It's not like Cleveland Clinic isn't a big name like Mayo (though Mayo probably is more known).
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I still find this part intriguing.
CCLCM is a little bit different on their research emphasis vs Mayo, as some posters already stated.
Care to elaborate a bit?
Yup. Every entering student receives a full tuition scholarship (all 32 of them!)
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Okay, so a bit about Mayo vs. Cleveland Clinic... I just interviewed for Vascular Surgery residency, for which both programs are considered top notch. I will make this as relevant to pre-allo as I can and maybe provide some perspective. First, I applied to 25 of the 26 integrated vascular programs and I didn't apply to Mayo. My wife said flat out we weren't moving to Rochester, Minnesota. Having spent some time at Mayo in the past, I know exactly why she vetoed it. Rochester is small, it is isolated, it is a hospital town. It is also very VERY cold. In short, for the majority of people, it is a miserable place to live for several months of the year. Why does anyone go? Because its the Mayo clinic. It IS a great medical school. It also is one of the best hospitals to train at for many many different specialties. But you do sacrifice a lot by going, especially for medical school. If you are the kind of person that will never leave the library/hospital, this is completely irrelevant, but most people need an outlet. My wife hates the cold. She is also in law school and there is no way she could practice the kind of law she wants to if I was there.
Cleveland's program is as others have pointed out a 5 year program, 4 years of clinical and 1 year of research. Also as others have pointed out, there is no tuition. Take it from a recent medical school graduate. This is one of the best systems you can possibly imagine. A guaranteed research year and no medical school debt. I know 4 Cleveland Clinic grads. They are in a much better position moving forward, not being in debt. They also all matched very competitive programs, 2 Vascular Surgery, 1 Plastic Surgery, 1 Gen Surg, in their eyes that year of required research helped them a lot.
Cleveland, well is Cleveland. Not the hotbed of arts and culture, but you could do a lot worse. I wasn't overly turned off on the town, but being married and going into a rather taxing residency, it doesn't really matter to me, it might to medical students. Someone mentioned that the Cleveland Clinic students are weird or something like that. I'd say on average they are a little nerdy, but I certainly wouldn't knock them because of the students based on the few that I know.
I'll try to think of some other random thoughts about both programs, but thats all I got right now.
Cleveland's program is as others have pointed out a 5 year program, 4 years of clinical and 1 year of research. Also as others have pointed out, there is no tuition. Take it from a recent medical school graduate. This is one of the best systems you can possibly imagine. A guaranteed research year and no medical school debt. I know 4 Cleveland Clinic grads. They are in a much better position moving forward, not being in debt. They also all matched very competitive programs, 2 Vascular Surgery, 1 Plastic Surgery, 1 Gen Surg, in their eyes that year of required research helped them a lot.
Cleveland, well is Cleveland. Not the hotbed of arts and culture, but you could do a lot worse. I wasn't overly turned off on the town, but being married and going into a rather taxing residency, it doesn't really matter to me, it might to medical students. Someone mentioned that the Cleveland Clinic students are weird or something like that. I'd say on average they are a little nerdy, but I certainly wouldn't knock them because of the students based on the few that I know.
I'll try to think of some other random thoughts about both programs, but thats all I got right now.
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Free tuition and all lab fees. Free Masters degree (optional) from Case Western (engineering to MPH, etc.). Free Laptop. Free parking (don't knock it until you don't have it on certain rotations). Full access to all conferences on site. Free gym membership. Long white coats and most importantly intangible privileges tantamount to interns around the entire hospital system - not to mention exposure to some pretty good docs on a very personal level (networking). Some assistance to travel to conferences. Full access to our art department for poster production. Essentially All rights and privileges of Case Western students and Cleveland Clinic employees as well. Oh - and research training 100% integrated into every aspect of the basic science coursework including rigorous Biostats and Epidemiology training.
EDIT: I also forgot a couple of things, maybe that will dispel third-hand hearsay of us being "nerdy" :
1) We may be excellent researchers - but you have to be a very well rounded applicant to stand a chance of acceptance. We strive for balance in our student population...This is evidenced by the fact that we have some of the best medical historians and humanists training us here too. For example, I have worked this past year with an external art therapy group exploring how working with clay is therapeutic for patients with Traumatic Brain Injury (spoiler: it is). Another example, my class worked with Eric Coble a noted playwright a couple of years ago to produce a script for a play called Voices Of Healing exploring the experiences and emotions of my class. Here's a picture of the play that was performed for the public by professional actors:
2) We have extremely early and vigorous clinical training in the first two years. By the end of my second year I was seeing patients for one afternoon a week in an out-patient clinic with minimal supervision; usually seeing 2 or 3 patients from start to finish before even running into my preceptor to present. Was first assist on several out-patient minor surgeries as well.
Oh lest you who don't know me think I am somehow just and overly "touchy feely" kind of med student - I am an engineer through-and-through with patents and publications (and now medical publication, a poster at an international conference, and a couple medical patents pending too). I can geek it out with the best of them.
EDIT 2: Also, I will be the first to admit I am old and fat and nerdy
- being married and having three school-age kids in med school makes my life difficult, not that it should be an excuse. Many of my classmates are much more active in both research and the community than I am, whether it be establishing and managing international NGOs or being one of the most fit women in the world. Strength through diversity. We are a big family here, and like family we have our disagreements, no doubt. What I will say is that I wouldn't trade any of my classmates for a million dollars. No regrets.
EDIT: I also forgot a couple of things, maybe that will dispel third-hand hearsay of us being "nerdy" :
1) We may be excellent researchers - but you have to be a very well rounded applicant to stand a chance of acceptance. We strive for balance in our student population...This is evidenced by the fact that we have some of the best medical historians and humanists training us here too. For example, I have worked this past year with an external art therapy group exploring how working with clay is therapeutic for patients with Traumatic Brain Injury (spoiler: it is). Another example, my class worked with Eric Coble a noted playwright a couple of years ago to produce a script for a play called Voices Of Healing exploring the experiences and emotions of my class. Here's a picture of the play that was performed for the public by professional actors:
2) We have extremely early and vigorous clinical training in the first two years. By the end of my second year I was seeing patients for one afternoon a week in an out-patient clinic with minimal supervision; usually seeing 2 or 3 patients from start to finish before even running into my preceptor to present. Was first assist on several out-patient minor surgeries as well.
Oh lest you who don't know me think I am somehow just and overly "touchy feely" kind of med student - I am an engineer through-and-through with patents and publications (and now medical publication, a poster at an international conference, and a couple medical patents pending too). I can geek it out with the best of them.
EDIT 2: Also, I will be the first to admit I am old and fat and nerdy
- being married and having three school-age kids in med school makes my life difficult, not that it should be an excuse. Many of my classmates are much more active in both research and the community than I am, whether it be establishing and managing international NGOs or being one of the most fit women in the world. Strength through diversity. We are a big family here, and like family we have our disagreements, no doubt. What I will say is that I wouldn't trade any of my classmates for a million dollars. No regrets.
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I can tell you from first hand experience that CCLCM students are awesome and very normal--even better than normal. One of the guys I worked with this summer is like a football Coach, so to speak. He pushes you and inspires you (for me, the undergrad) with just the right amount of pressure and discipline to allow you to grow. The facilities are amazing as well. The LRI and CCF in general are all top-notch, and the staff are super friendly, too. The mentors are the most amazing people in the world. I really want to say who I worked for, but that'd probably negate my anonymity. I'll just say this--had I not found him, I probably would never have had the opportunity to do the research that I did. CCLCM wins anyday, in my book. But I'm also a Clevelander. 216 baybee! and I've heard awesome things about VC7777 from the CCLCM students. you've apparently reached legendary status?
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Btw I will totally agree that Rochester sucks. In fact, it's terrible. Cleveland is like NYC in comparison. That being said, I'd pick mayo in this comparison 7 days a week and twice on Sunday.
Btw minelim, since most ppl going to mayo get a half tuition scholarship and rochester has lower col and one year earlier earning attending $, i'm not sure mayo is a worse financial proposition.
Btw minelim, since most ppl going to mayo get a half tuition scholarship and rochester has lower col and one year earlier earning attending $, i'm not sure mayo is a worse financial proposition.
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SDN heretic here.
Sorry guys, Cleveland is WAY better than Rochester. I don't care how prestigious Mayo is; the location just would not suit me.
Sorry guys, Cleveland is WAY better than Rochester. I don't care how prestigious Mayo is; the location just would not suit me.
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Lies! All lies...err..what? people like me? Interesting...
No, really I stick out like a sore thumb. I have been ID'd by rando SDNers on the street after very brief conversations...and probably a few dozen applicants at some point or another in the past few years. I should say - I have much love for Mayo too. But this is apples and oranges, folks. Both are fruits - both get the job done. Both are tasty, too. It's really a matter of preference, and frankly many people do not want to be a physician investigator. I think a more applicable comparison could arguably be Pitt's PTSP program.
Some folks cannot stand the idea of mandatory attendance during the first two years. We have a dress code too. Others live to destroy the curve and stress out without clear-cut grades or tests (oh... right forgot to mention we have no tests, grades, or rankings, or AOA for that matter - our first graded exam is Step 1, which my entire class just passed on the first try with a VERY high average)
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Lies! All lies...err..what? people like me? Interesting...
I should say - I have much love for Mayo too. But this is apples and oranges, folks. Both are fruits - both get the job done. Both are tasty, too. It's really a matter of preference, and frankly many people do not want to be a physician investigator. I think a more applicable comparison could arguably be Pitt's PTSP program.
Some folks cannot stand the idea of mandatory attendance during the first two years. We have a dress codetoo. Others live to destroy the curve and stress out without clear-cut grades or tests (oh... right forgot to mention we have no tests, grades, or rankings, or AOA for that matter - our first graded exam is Step 1, which my entire class just passed on the first try with a VERY high average)
You just explained the two biggest reasons I didn't attend. Mayo has essentially required attendance too. Off the list.
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I see what you did here.
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Cool beans.
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There's enough "required attendance" during the rest of your professional career, IMO.
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You know, my hospital has about 1/4 mayo trained attendings, and they're pretty easy to spot bc they rock suits every day. I guess it's hard to break the habit even when you leave mayo. I do have to say that in general they're fantastic dressers even by my standards.
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Yeahh I would hope everyone at Mayo passes Step 1 the first time too...not really something to brag about.
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Vc goes to cclcm, but I'm pretty sure all the mayo ppl pass the first time too. Our class of 163 had no fails too, it's not exactly rocket science to pass step 1.
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I agree, and I was not trying to brag at all - but it something that premeds worry about when interviewing at our school. That is I often get nervous nellies asking, "will having no grades and being 'untested' before Step 1 mean I might be unprepared and fail/do poorly on my USMLE?" To this end, I bring this up as reassurance that we do just fine. Rather, I say that our curriculum will not put you at a disadvantage to others that force you to do much more rote memorization. Now, any medical student such as yourself will tell you this is a silly concern because there are many opportunities to take full-length practice exams. But this question comes up quite often during interview season - so much so that I bring it up now.
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lol I know that's why I was a little confused why he seemed to be bragging about it in a cclcm vs mayo thread
Edit: Just saw your response got it
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First, CCLCM is part of Case, so we don't publish Step 1 results separate from Case. Second, even if I tell you - you have no way to know if I am either lying because I don't want to share, or lying because I don't know. Third, when you select 32 people with high MCAT scores - they tend to do well. Finally 32 is on the hairy-edge of central limit theorem - that is, it is not necessarily in a gaussian distribution. Similar arguments could be made for Mayo too, as it were.
It should be pointed out that the past performance of classes is not a guarantee of anything at ours or any other school too.
I still repeat my assertion that CCLCM will not limit you or your ultimate career choices.
Do you still want a number?
It should be pointed out that the past performance of classes is not a guarantee of anything at ours or any other school too.
I still repeat my assertion that CCLCM will not limit you or your ultimate career choices.
Do you still want a number?
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VC7777, I have a question about this. Did all the students in your class have extraordinary MCAT scores (like 37+) or were there any who had scores in the 33-35 range?
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Do you guys think it is too late to apply to CCLCM? Im extremely interested in the program but just recently found out about it and don't really want to waste money by applying if I have virtually no chance of getting in.
I have extensive research that I am very passionate about, high MCAT and GPA but no publications. I would appreciate any insight on this matter (Hopefully I can get the essay done by next weekend)
I have extensive research that I am very passionate about, high MCAT and GPA but no publications. I would appreciate any insight on this matter (Hopefully I can get the essay done by next weekend)
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I do think that the primary reason people on SDN have such a hard-on for mayo though is never having been to Rochester.
I thought CCLCM was an interesting concept when I visited, though.
I thought CCLCM was an interesting concept when I visited, though.
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33-35 is an excellent MCAT score range, you realize? The difference between 33 and 35 is small; 35 and 37 miniscule, and 37 to 40 probably mostly luck and curving of the exam, IMHO. We have no cut-off for MCAT scores - and this is reflected in our student body. I would never discourage anyone with a serious track record or interest in academic medicine from applying even if they do not think they have a good MCAT score. In fact, I would discourage high MCAT scorers with no interest in research from applying or attending, to be honest, because this isn't the program for them. Does that make sense?
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I am far removed from the application deadlines now, so I cannot tell you when the application season closes - but there are people who applied near the end of my class, interviewed near the end if not the very last day, and were accepted and currently attend CCLCM. I know for a fact that all applications are reviewed, and nobody interviews for the waitlist, if that helps.
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A chance to not enter med school debt is a game changer. I don't think mayo would put you in a much better position to match into competitive residencies either.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but CCLCM has free tuition, not tuition + stipend. Most Mayo students have at least a half-tuition scholarship and Rochester is almost free to live in. My guess is that the cost of attendance over the course of attendance would be pretty close for both schools. Considering the fact that you'll make attending money a year earlier attending Mayo, I think there'd be very little financial difference, if anything mayo would have an advantage.
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agree with this. plus, there are many other top schools out there that give out full tuition scholarships
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My understand was it included a stipend, but I do not know for sure. The "make money earlier" argument is a little silly since I would assume that the people who go to CCLCM would take a year to do research no matter where they go. Also, there is a big interest penalty for loans that obviously compounds that initial 200k. I haven't seen the data on financial aid for Mayo, so that would obviously change things. But many top schools give out financial breaks and scholarships...
However, no matter how that calculation comes out, Rochester is... Rochester, MN...
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I don't believe it did. I think that's a poor assumption. I seriously considered going there and didn't do a research year.
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Did somebody say something about Cleveland?
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If the finances are similar and you'd prefer to live in Cleveland (better stated as prefer to not live in the Rochester) then Id go with Cleveland. I'm sure you could find match lists to compare but I cannot imagine they'd be very different. The "fifth" year is a plus as I see it, gives you a chance to vet your future academic interests and maybe start something meaningful.
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No guaranteed stipend - although some individuals get them as well, just like any other school there are additional scholarship opportunities beyond what The Clinic covers.
This. Also - many people considering CCLCM (including myself) had/have offers of full-tuition scholarships at one or more other places that are "only" four year programs. I hope that can help convince people that I came here for other reasons. You are also correct that most graduates will be looking to do research during and after their training, which makes the "extra year of money" argument a little off-base. People don't go into research for the money, btw. People who are hung up on wearing expensive clothes and accessories do not fare well here.
Also, I cannot speak for MN, but Cleveland is not a terribly costly city, I know people who bought houses for cash, others who pooled money to rent a small estate house (with an indoor hot tub and regulation squash court). Housing can be cheap and safe around this side of town. It is NYC or Chicago? definitely not, of course. But there are things to do and places to see if you spend some time looking.
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Yes - to paraphrase our Dean - if CCLCM graduates are not participating in research ultimately as part of their career, then she will have failed. You come to CCLCM hopefully as a strong start to a future prolific research career.
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That's a silly argument; people REALLY interested in research could do a MSTP at the institution of their choice and get full tuition and a stipend. The free tuition is simply a recruitment tool targeting people who wouldn't otherwise consider Cleveland because of the location.
Also, saying research /= money is also inaccurate. There are a number of areas of medicine that aren't available outside of an academic setting, some of them extremely lucrative.
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Which MSTP did you attend?
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I wasn't interested in attending a MSTP. I did more than enough research in my four years of med school.
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Ah, so this is why you chose Mayo over CCLCM. Got it. Well, best of luck.
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I didn't go to Mayo, for either med school or residency. I'm not even a fan of Mayo. I simply said that I would choose it over cclcm.
