Talking a bit about this in another thread, but want to throw it out to the group. For discussion purposes this is a 2 year MBA, possible partial subsidy but would be full-time w moonlighting as a generalist.
MBA vs Fellowship
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(I voted)
The answer, of course is useless unless you know what you want to do with your career. Congenital hearts? Think budgets and strategy?
If you have the capacity to be great at business (which is VERY different than the capacity to be a great clinician), a top 3 MBA gives you sight-lines to huge upside. Conversely, most people don't recognize that 99% of folks in business would give their left nut/ovary to have the ability to turn on a $250,000+ money spigot, every year, in perpetuity, as any board-certified anesthesiologist can, because they're toiling away for $150-200k and constantly looking over their shoulder for the layoff axe.
To make real money in business (I mean >80%tile MGMA money) you have to be really good at what you do. And having lived a long time in that world, almost everybody in business believes that they're that 1 in 100, and that they're going to eventually be the guy /woman doing high-six to seven figures, but there aren't many seats at the top of the mountain.
Now finding a job being like every other useless administrator -- making life hard for all the clinicians and making $200k while you're at it? Those jobs are easy to find. But that's not why you do a top 3 MBA.
The answer, of course is useless unless you know what you want to do with your career. Congenital hearts? Think budgets and strategy?
If you have the capacity to be great at business (which is VERY different than the capacity to be a great clinician), a top 3 MBA gives you sight-lines to huge upside. Conversely, most people don't recognize that 99% of folks in business would give their left nut/ovary to have the ability to turn on a $250,000+ money spigot, every year, in perpetuity, as any board-certified anesthesiologist can, because they're toiling away for $150-200k and constantly looking over their shoulder for the layoff axe.
To make real money in business (I mean >80%tile MGMA money) you have to be really good at what you do. And having lived a long time in that world, almost everybody in business believes that they're that 1 in 100, and that they're going to eventually be the guy /woman doing high-six to seven figures, but there aren't many seats at the top of the mountain.
Now finding a job being like every other useless administrator -- making life hard for all the clinicians and making $200k while you're at it? Those jobs are easy to find. But that's not why you do a top 3 MBA.
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My SO is at a top 3 MBA...being a doctor means nothing for getting admission if that's all you're depending on for top schools; if you have no business experience (working with pharma/selling a product/working with manufacturing) you may as well have a PHd in science to them. A little less than half the class is getting sponsored by the consulting firm they worked for so they keep working for them for two years, and consulting hours are worse than residency hours, she has classmates who left consulting to do an MBA rather than take the sponsorship so they wouldn't have to come back to it. You have to consider what you want to do. Some schools are good for finance, entrepreneurship, consulting, supply chain. The docs I work with who have an MBA don't use it all, the ones who are in administration didn't go to a top school and are getting less than if they were just a clinician. My opinion is that it doesn't add anything to your resume unless you want to switch to a less clinical career for less money and you better have worked in some business capacity beforehand because the top 3 are may be out of reach, her classmates speak 3 languages and worked at big banks before going there..if you went to a top med school and were involved in business projects that may be a different story
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Plus the opportunity cost of doing an MBA.
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So this is the thing right? Some people are obviously wildly successful walking this career path, but it carries a huge opportunity cost and no promises. The thing I find most attractive is the opportunity to be The Man one day. I really love being a physician and giving anesthesia, but don't relish the idea of being under somebody's thumb forever. My program sends a resident to Harvard Business School every couple of years, so I'm exploring the possibility.
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Top 3 MBA is an option? I'm assuming you mean top 3 of ranked MBA programs, not an applicant's personal top 3.
Typical SDN advice: be amazing, score in the 101st percentile of every test - but if you happen to settle for the #3 nationally ranked program, then just moonlight and do some i-banking in the side.
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deleted643396
I think it would be rare for a top 3 business school MBA to accept someone straight out of residency. These programs are very competitive and usually want someone with real world experience. Generally, people who can get accepted in a top 3 business school have already demonstrated a high degree of business acumen and would be successful with a career in business no matter what. The MBA just gives them the credentials to prove it going forward. Getting an MBA just so you can have the initials after your last name while you work in private practice somewhere is a waste. You get the MBA because you want to be a leader and have a pretty clear career goal. The MBA also provides you with the opportunity to expand your network.
If you want an MBA just to have it then just get an online MBA while you work and earn money. I think this is a waste, but you get those letters after your name.
If you want an MBA just to have it then just get an online MBA while you work and earn money. I think this is a waste, but you get those letters after your name.
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My understanding is that some programs have agreements with the mba program for their residents.
For the sake of discussion let's assume if I want to go, I can. I don't really give a s*** about credentials- frankly I'm sick of perpetual schooling- but with physicians increasingly being subjugated I'm wondering if I'd be making a mistake by passing up this opportunity. Of course an exec MBA later is always a possibility, but things get more difficult with kids, bills, etc.
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deleted643396
What do you want to do with it? What is your career goal? I don't think I would pass up on a Harvard MBA, so long as I had some sense of a career ambition that involved business/administration. This is a personal decision based on your set of circumstances.
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deleted50478
Neither.
None of the above.
None of the above.
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deleted162650
U wanna be a suit or a clinician?? Should be an easy decision.
Physician, no question, though I am tempted to argue few things in life are so simple.
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Personally, I see no immediate advantage to getting an MBA anywhere fresh out of residency, no one is going to be hiring you for that administrative CEO-like role without clinical experience. Down the road? Oh sure, but then any executive MBA would do the trick. I don't see how it would help a private practice either (at least immediately as a new hire) - it's not like they will hire you to do their finances.
Can you get into alternative professions like pharmaceuticals or consulting? Of course, but that would largely preclude a clinical career outside of extra shift work.
Can you get into alternative professions like pharmaceuticals or consulting? Of course, but that would largely preclude a clinical career outside of extra shift work.
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As others have suggested, there seem to be a lot of MD/MBAs out there (including in Anesthesia) and they don't really do anything beyond routine clinical work. A few seem to advance slightly more than the rest of us, but only marginally so.
I think the MBA is only worth it if you really, really, REALLY have a solid plan of why you want an MBA and know how it will help you achieve that goal.
There are a few MD/MBAs out there who've really achieved great things ($$$), but I think they're the exception rather than the norm. Per above, practicing clinical anesthesia is going to pay much better than 95% of business jobs, including mid level hospital administration.
I think the MBA is only worth it if you really, really, REALLY have a solid plan of why you want an MBA and know how it will help you achieve that goal.
There are a few MD/MBAs out there who've really achieved great things ($$$), but I think they're the exception rather than the norm. Per above, practicing clinical anesthesia is going to pay much better than 95% of business jobs, including mid level hospital administration.
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I am of the other mindset, if you have the option to go to harvard business school, you freaking take it. That is worth FAR more to you than a fellowship of any sort, even if you just plan on clinic practice.
It gives you a ticket out of medicine, and the required connections
It gives you the ability to talk with the suits on a level they are comfortable with
It gives you a better chance to see areas for gains in efficiency within your practice.
Presumably you will have a better skill set in negotiation of contracts.
It will set you up well to make less mistakes if you end up running the group
I would hire a guy with a Harvard MBA and solid training over a guy with a fellowship, as that guy is likely to find a way to make us more money, and have a better skill set in managing our employees and group. A middle of road or executive MBA is valuable, but not the same.
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It gives you a ticket out of medicine, and the required connections
It gives you the ability to talk with the suits on a level they are comfortable with
It gives you a better chance to see areas for gains in efficiency within your practice.
Presumably you will have a better skill set in negotiation of contracts.
It will set you up well to make less mistakes if you end up running the group
I would hire a guy with a Harvard MBA and solid training over a guy with a fellowship, as that guy is likely to find a way to make us more money, and have a better skill set in managing our employees and group. A middle of road or executive MBA is valuable, but not the same.
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This is what I suspected as well- that if I could make this work it would be a special opportunity somewhat unique from and removed from some of the typical arguements made against the dual degree. The concept of "moats" came up in another thread, and whereas I think a typical, middle-of-the-road MBA wouldn't offer me much at this point in time, getting one at HBS would be crossing a huge moat into a very exclusive network.
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If you are sitting here with a HBS acceptance letter, then I think you should do that. You can always take the GMAT and submit an application to Harvard and see what happens. With a degree from HBS life won't turn out appreciably worse than with a fellowship, and may turn out appreciable better.
If you are just thinking things over, and if you are a candidate for a top 3 MBA now, then you will likely be a candidate for a top 10 MBA later 5-10 years from now. If you want to have any business career related to medicine (I am thinking hospital CEO/CFO/CMO/ACO medical director...that sort of thing) then a few years of practice will help a lot, and getting on good financial footing/paying off med school debt will be beneficial. If you are looking at midsize hospital CEO or CMO in a major city I am not sure an MBA from Harvard makes you a better candidate than having 5 years experience and an MBA from Yale. Then again, I am not on a hospital board so maybe it does make you a better candidate.
If you are just thinking things over, and if you are a candidate for a top 3 MBA now, then you will likely be a candidate for a top 10 MBA later 5-10 years from now. If you want to have any business career related to medicine (I am thinking hospital CEO/CFO/CMO/ACO medical director...that sort of thing) then a few years of practice will help a lot, and getting on good financial footing/paying off med school debt will be beneficial. If you are looking at midsize hospital CEO or CMO in a major city I am not sure an MBA from Harvard makes you a better candidate than having 5 years experience and an MBA from Yale. Then again, I am not on a hospital board so maybe it does make you a better candidate.
Excellent point- I'd actually be more inclined to believe the latter is true. My feeling has always been we are most valuable to the world as physicians. What I mean by that is it is our clinical perspective that makes us unique, whether as physician scientists, administrators, whatever. This is why I thought getting an MBA fresh out of medical school and skipping residency, as some of my friends did, made no sense. The MD then is essentially wasted, because while a newly minted MD may speak the language, they have no meaningful experience (though you don't realize how much you didnt know until much later).
To answer the implied question, I dont have an HBS acceptance, though there exists an established path in my program to obtain one. However, it is a process that I would need to initiate soonish. I really love being a doctor, am not thrilled about the idea of administration, but am the son of a very successful businessman,. While I do enjoy aspects of business, frankly, it feels like great insurance against the doom and gloom, not my life's calling by any stretch.
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Certainly wouldn't hurt if you're considering it and are willing to take the time to do it. An MBA from Harvard would potentially open doors at an administrative level in the hospital and can make you an asset to any group of physicians whether contracted or owned by the hospital. Suits tend to listen to you more if you have the letters behind your name and serving on committees, as a liaison or in an administrative position can be very helpful to the group come renegotiation time. That being said, it's just extra work outside clinical duties (aka away from the family) typically for no extra pay unless the hospital pays extra. Also can give you an out if it gets bad enough in the future.
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Wasn't he one of the surg residents on that medical documentary/reality show a few years ago, Boston Med I think?
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yes, and I believe in one episode he identified the appendix as being in the LLQ. iirc he did his surgical intern year and bailed for his next chapter.
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Is this really true? (I'm technically still a trainee, so I'm not exposed to committees and the like... yet)
Certain other groups have an alphabet soup behind their names, and I rarely listen to them.
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Suits are not exactly known for their discerning acumen
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sorry. rambled.
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If you don't feel it's your life's calling then I would wait. The MD/MBAs I know who are in administration to some degree all got part time/executive MBAs after several years of practice. If you are somewhat disgruntled/concerned with the state of medicine however and you had an admission to HBS I absolutely do not think you would be making a mistake by going. Can they defer admission for a year if accepted? You probably don't want to be trying to study for oral boards and get through HBS.
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Although maybe you would be making a mistake....
http://poetsandquants.com/2016/09/22/highest-paying-mba-programs/
With a degree from the best MBA program in the country, at mid career, the median salary is $201k. That is over $250k less than the median anesthesiology salary listed in MGMA. The odds aren't in your favor if you want to head a different direction with your career (current trends in medicine/anesthesiology notwithstanding).
However, if you are going to try to use your medical degree too and go for CMO, the median salary is about $475k, which is only $22k more than the average anesthesiology salary but presumably doesn't involve call or weekend. Is that worth 2 years and $100k plus opportunity costs to obtain from a top school? I'm not sure, especially since an executive MBA from a top 20 program and 10 years experience will probably make you an equal candidate.
Things are still good in anesthesiology, although the writing is on the wall. May as well make hay while the sun shines, and go for an executive MBA while you work once you are BC.
http://poetsandquants.com/2016/09/22/highest-paying-mba-programs/
With a degree from the best MBA program in the country, at mid career, the median salary is $201k. That is over $250k less than the median anesthesiology salary listed in MGMA. The odds aren't in your favor if you want to head a different direction with your career (current trends in medicine/anesthesiology notwithstanding).
However, if you are going to try to use your medical degree too and go for CMO, the median salary is about $475k, which is only $22k more than the average anesthesiology salary but presumably doesn't involve call or weekend. Is that worth 2 years and $100k plus opportunity costs to obtain from a top school? I'm not sure, especially since an executive MBA from a top 20 program and 10 years experience will probably make you an equal candidate.
Things are still good in anesthesiology, although the writing is on the wall. May as well make hay while the sun shines, and go for an executive MBA while you work once you are BC.
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That sounds like the best plan. Get board certified with some clinical experience and go back for a TOP executive/PT MBA.
Physicians who do this can open up opportunities as CMOs, consultants at top firms like McKinsey/Boston or work in executive positions at pharma/device/insurance companies possibly after consulting work.
It could be a big move but making it in any of these fields will pay way higher than physician (if you make it since its "up or out"). Consultants make lateral moves to VP at big insurance companies as well and they aren't hurting for salaries.
Could be a very good option if/probably when Anesthesia goes down the tubes.
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I'm skeptical about this... I've known of plenty anesthesiologist who got a mid-career MBA - and they're usually doing exactly what they'd be doing without it - that is, they're full time clinical anesthesiologists. Yeah you could make a "lateral" move into consulting, but these jobs pay less than 300-400K typically and even as a physician MBA they make you start in the bottom rungs.
Agreed though that this is a possible move for a burnt out / bored anesthesiologist, but I don't think it's either common or a true lateral move.
Feel free to prove me wrong; I'd love a low resistance path to guaranteed riches.
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Interesting perspective but there two problems with this analysis:
1) What was the age of the anesthesiologist that did this? I know a few people from NYC that have made the move from anesthesia to consulting that made more.
http://hackyourwealth.com/tarun-mahajan-boston-consulting-group
http://healthcare.mckinsey.com/dr-pooja-kumar
http://www.mckinsey.com/about-us/new-at-mckinsey-blog/doctors-at-mckinsey
Thats just a fast search. There are tons more to be honest, not going to work too hard finding them lol
2) Where did they get the MBA from? Unless its a top place, you won't be able to make a move into a top consulting agency, so it wouldn't be worth it.
However, with the future uncertain, these "consultants" often do better than physicians (particularly in the future).
Mind you, these guys/women go onto other companies and become VPs at places like BC/BS where they make even higher salaries without travel after getting the "name" on the CV.
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I wholeheartedly agree with this statement (it's what I did) and think that anyone who wastes their money gettting an MBA is just fueling the statement: "A fool and his money are soon parted."
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Top MBA isn't used to "built your practice", its used to get connections for top positions in consulting/pharma/etc
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Which is why it's such an idiotic idea. Most anesthesiologists, no matter how god-like they portray themselves on SDN, aren't going to secure a "top" MBA position. If they somehow do, and somehow excel in their program, and then somehow manage to get "top" connections for "top" positions (a stretch since most anesthesiologists are social misfits), are they actually going to make as much as or more than they currently make?
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This has been overrated over the years. People think they just walk into an MBA program then like magic connections are established. Not what I have personally observed. The anesthesiologist who has built multiple practices and owns multiple ASCs will be hired as a consultant before the new grad from a big MBA program with no accomplishments.
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No they are not. Not to mention no one gives you a big time consulting job if you have no proven track record. Mixing credentials without a clear goal is a recipe for failure and time wasting.
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Anesthesiologists own multiple ASCs these days? Wow thats a newsflash to me.
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Yeah I guess all those principals/partners at McKinsey who are MDs who just had "no experience" except for board certification and top MBAs don't exist. Oh wait.
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Yep, I just had lunch with one. There are a lot of ASC owners or part owners out there. Some are surgeons, pain docs, or anesthesiologists.
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They don't get to that position just because they have an MBA. For every one of those guys, I will show you five whose MBA is only good for occupying space on their business cards.
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I can see pain docs or surgeons, can't see plain old anesthesiologists.
Why would they partner them in? They are hired by the ASC docs as independent contractors and are an expense. They don't bring revenue to the ASC.
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Once again you're changing the parameters. You basically said that a plain old MD/MBA from a top school without experience are unable to get consulting jobs.
I have given you multiple examples including partners/principals at the top consulting firms that negate this statement. These people didn't own ASCs or have some major business experience before the MBA.
Clearly, not everyone will get to partner level. However, the exit options are often very good as well into high paying govt/pharma/insurance/device positions that pay very well.
Most Anesthesiologists never did this in the past for multiple reasons including:
1) Didn't want to put in the work for a top MBA and time
2) Made huge salaries against administrative people so figured it wasn't worth it. However, that has changed dramatically recently since the 2000s. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/sunday-review/doctors-salaries-are-not-the-big-cost.html
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If you bring cash or are willing to absorb some part of the risks of initial debt, you can get in on some of those deals. Just like anyone else I guess. The point I am making goes beyond ASCs. I am talking about achieving success in the business of medicine. That does not require an MBA. It does however require a lot of knowledge of the business of medicine.
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Who said that "requires" an MBA? MBA isn't worth it for a private practice physician that wants to do only clinical work.
Areas MBA are "worth it" include:
1) Any old MBA for hospital admin if experienced as a physician and want to work in administration at local hospitals
2) Top MBA for top consulting jobs that can lead to top pharma/device/insurance exit options that pay very very well. It also gives you a "get out of jail card" for if anesthesiologist salaries collapse.
Top MBAs are useful for physicians with high net worth's that don't want to be exposed to increasing liability coupled with declining salaries in the future (in my opinion).
However, chances of you getting a consulting job at McKinsey as a plain old MD vs an MD/MBA from a top school is nil.
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Very rarely do anesthesiologists get into ASC "deals" with surgeons. In fact, I have almost never heard of it outside of pain guys.
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Oversimplified! If you have that exit strategy, then be prepared to start at the same level as a new grad in any of those entities. None of those entities including the govt will give you a position just because you have an MBA. Most will want something more tangible.
Btw, I met my first medicine to device rep doctor. Let me put it this way, he prefers residency.
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Rare but it happens. I know multiple, and I would not try to get an MBA to figure out how to.
