MD after PhD with sub-par undergrad GPA

[ophidianphan]

Hey everyone. I would appreciate some advice in this manner.

I'm currently pursuing a PhD in electrophysiology (retinal if anybody is interested), and am possibly planning to get into an MD program afterwards. I haven't yet taken the MCAT, and should have a good 3 more years to prepare for it as well.

I'm worried about my undergrad GPA influencing my acceptance into Med school...it was hovering around 3.0ish. My Grad GPA should be closer to 3.9+ when all is said and done however. Do you guys think I can be forgiven for my undergrad performance, considering a strong grad GPA and strong publication record as well?

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[Inuranic]

I'm pretty sure in your case, as long as you get the rest of your app in order (clinical experience, MCAT, etc.) you should be ok. Spend some time reading this and the MD-only forums. You'll get an idea of what to expect and what to do.

 

[ophidianphan]

i've read elsewhere that med schools will not weigh an excellent graduate GPA as much (or at all) as an undergraduate.

I just wonder if I'll have any chance at all if this is true, regardless of MCAT scores and research experience

 

[RxnMan]

Hey everyone. I would appreciate some advice in this manner.

I'm currently pursuing a PhD in electrophysiology (retinal if anybody is interested), and am possibly planning to get into an MD program afterwards. I haven't yet taken the MCAT, and should have a good 3 more years to prepare for it as well.

I'm worried about my undergrad GPA influencing my acceptance into Med school...it was hovering around 3.0ish. My Grad GPA should be closer to 3.9+ when all is said and done however. Do you guys think I can be forgiven for my undergrad performance, considering a strong grad GPA and strong publication record as well?

Probably not. While you have undoubtedly put in a great deal of effort into your degree, ADCOMs, for several reasons, don't look at grad degrees/GPAs the same as ugrad GPA. (I don't agree with it.) You need to get it above a 3.0, and the higher the better. I would suggest interspersing elective ugrad courses in with your grad courses to boost up that ugrad GPA and it'll be good prep for the MCAT.

I have a MS and publications, and I had a very difficult time overcoming my low ugrad GPA. But don't take my word for it - There is a poster much like yourself around here called relentless - he sometimes posts in the Non-Trad forum. He's combining his PhD with ugrad courses to boost his ugrad GPA. You can also talk to QofQuimica, who posts in the MCAT forum - her ugrad did not give out GPAs, and she had a devil of a time getting admission despite a PhD and phenomenal MCAT.

 

[QofQuimica]

Probably not. While you have undoubtedly put in a great deal of effort into your degree, ADCOMs, for several reasons, don't look at grad degrees/GPAs the same as ugrad GPA. (I don't agree with it.) You need to get it above a 3.0, and the higher the better. I would suggest interspersing elective ugrad courses in with your grad courses to boost up that ugrad GPA and it'll be good prep for the MCAT.

I have a MS and publications, and I had a very difficult time overcoming my low ugrad GPA. But don't take my word for it - There is a poster much like yourself around here called relentless - he sometimes posts in the Non-Trad forum. He's combining his PhD with ugrad courses to boost his ugrad GPA. You can also talk to QofQuimica, who posts in the MCAT forum - her ugrad did not give out GPAs, and she had a devil of a time getting admission despite a PhD and phenomenal MCAT.

I post here too. 🙂

OP, I agree with RxnMan. You may need to take some UG level classes to boost your GPA and provide evidence of recent excellent work at the UG level. You also need to start getting some clinical experience ASAP. MD-only programs will expect it.

 

[ophidianphan]

this is not sounding very good.

I (my opinion) think it's slightly ludicrous to take more undergrad courses while doing the PhD (in biomedical science)...on top of grad courses, journal clubs, teaching fellowships, MCAT prep, volunteering, and oh yeah by the way...research papers and dissertations.

I just find it so hard to believe that an excellent performance as a graduate student can't override some blunders in the past. I 'd love to see the look on my advisor's face when I tell her I'm gonna take some undergrad courses which I don't even need for the program. I'd be laughed out of the building.

I'm going to continue doing some more research on this, but if this is the general consensus everywhere I ask, theres no way I could do it while in grad school. It would be a little funny to take undergrad classes after the PhD was completed too. I'm sure you know somebody

 

[RxnMan]

I post here too. 🙂...

It was a matter of where you would most likely be more than anything.

...I (my opinion) think it's slightly ludicrous to take more undergrad courses while doing the PhD...I just find it so hard to believe that an excellent performance as a graduate student can't override some blunders in the past...

I agree! I thought that my MCAT and my grad degree and so on were more than enough to get me acceptances, but it doesn't work that way.

If you're sifting through the posts on SDN and MDApps, look at it another way - how many people can you find who go back to ugrad and bump up their ugrad GPAs. Compare their success (final ugrad GPA/MCAT vs. number of acceptances) to those who did a grad degree.

You're correct to not accept anecdotal evidence. I'm am giving you contacts who will give you perspective on the process, who have been where you are now, and who can tell you how to get from where you are to med school. Use them or not.

 

[some_user86]

Hey everyone. I would appreciate some advice in this manner.

I'm currently pursuing a PhD in electrophysiology (retinal if anybody is interested), and am possibly planning to get into an MD program afterwards. I haven't yet taken the MCAT, and should have a good 3 more years to prepare for it as well.

I'm worried about my undergrad GPA influencing my acceptance into Med school...it was hovering around 3.0ish. My Grad GPA should be closer to 3.9+ when all is said and done however. Do you guys think I can be forgiven for my undergrad performance, considering a strong grad GPA and strong publication record as well?

Was it particularly difficult to get into a grad program with a ~3.0 GPA? The reason why I ask is because I have exactly such a GPA (3 D's and a few C's during a bad junior year, but otherwise OK years) that I am paying for with a fifth undergrad year. I fear that I might not even get into a PhD program with a 3.0 GPA and might have to do a Masters or something.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

I had an avg undergrad GPA, then Phd, and was accepted after wandering in the wilderness for years searching for the meaning of life. The AMCAS counts your total GPA and science GPA. There is not a distinction between undergrad and grad GPA. They tend to favor a pattern of improvement and any shortfalls BRIEFLY explained in application. I rarely bold, but the point is if you over explain something they get suspicious. If your science GPA is sub-par, then you have some explaining to do, or take some biology classes to show your commitment and improvement.

 

[ophidianphan]

sorry..ADCOMS?? not familiar with this term.

Dog face medic seems to have evidence to the contrary of what I have heard. Anyone care to comment as his post. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with the application process "jargon" as of yet.

 

[ophidianphan]

I had an avg undergrad GPA, then Phd, and was accepted after wandering in the wilderness for years searching for the meaning of life. The AMCAS counts your total GPA and science GPA. There is not a distinction between undergrad and grad GPA. They tend to favor a pattern of improvement and any shortfalls BRIEFLY explained in application. I rarely bold, but the point is if you over explain something they get suspicious. If your science GPA is sub-par, then you have some explaining to do, or take some biology classes to show your commitment and improvement.

Thats good to hear. All in all, my science GPA as an undergrad was around 3.3. Obviously now im taking all biology courses, of which i have nothing less than A-'s in (damn professors with their minuses absolutely kill me, lol.

 

[some_user86]

sorry..ADCOMS?? not familiar with this term.

Dog face medic seems to have evidence to the contrary of what I have heard. Anyone care to comment as his post. Sorry, I'm not too familiar with the application process "jargon" as of yet.

Yeah, I am pretty confident that there is some incorrect information there. The only place where the gpa are looked holistically, irrespective of graduate or undergraduate standing is with the Texas med schools (thank god I am a resident). Texas state medical schools do not use the common AMCAS application service, instead using their custom application service TMDSAS. Here, they average all grades together with simple demarkations for science vs nonscience as mentioned by Dogface. Also, it is my understanding that more things get counted as science under the TMDSAS (such as Computer Science) as compared to the AMCAS.

BTW, I deduced ADCOMS to mean "admission committees" or "admission committee members" depending on context.

And I am still interested in what you think about my above question. 😀

 

[RxnMan]

...The AMCAS counts your total GPA and science GPA. There is not a distinction between undergrad and grad GPA...

This is completely different than the AMCAS (American Medical College Application Service) form I filled out. Mine calculated 3 GPAs/degree:

ugrad (undergrad): BCMP (biology, chemistry, math, physics), non-science, and total ugrad GPA.

You can find on the Pre-allo board all sorts of rumors as to which is most important but I would look through the Mentor forums or PM (private message) LizzyM, an ADCOM who posts on SDN.

The same categories were also calculated for my grad degree.

sorry..ADCOMS?? not familiar with this term...Sorry, I'm not too familiar with the application process "jargon" as of yet.

Yes - admissions committee or committee member(s). Sorry for not being clearer. I've given definitions for the terms used in this post.

 

[RxnMan]

...The only place where the gpa are looked holistically, irrespective of graduate or undergraduate standing is with the Texas med schools (thank god I am a resident)...

OP (original poster) - I don't know anything about the Republic of Tejas, so this might explain the confusion.

 

[ophidianphan]

thanks guys...it appears that Texas' medical schools are thinking more logically...amazing. I really can't deal with living there though...😀.

Was it particularly difficult to get into a grad program with a ~3.0 GPA? The reason why I ask is because I have exactly such a GPA (3 D's and a few C's during a bad junior year, but otherwise OK years) that I am paying for with a fifth undergrad year. I fear that I might not even get into a PhD program with a 3.0 GPA and might have to do a Masters or something.

I'll be happy to give a lengthy response to that this weekend...im trying to get alot done in the lab today so I can get out at a reasonable time (friday). As for now, think and post some specifics about yourself (GREs, research experience, ect.)

 

[PHD_2007]

My undergrad GPA was around a 3.2-3.3. I also have a PHD-Developmental Cardiology (grad GPA 3.96) and 3 publications (2 first and 1 second author). My undergrad GPA was not a factor for me.... so I guess I had a different experience. Also, I had volunteer experience (private practice and Free Medical Clinic), and I taught Biology and Microbiology at a local community college. In addition, I had numerous EC's. Personally, I think you will be fine...just make sure your personal statement is well-written and it represents an accurate view of you as a person. Also, do well on the MCAT!!!! You'll be fine!!!! 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

this is not sounding very good.

I (my opinion) think it's slightly ludicrous to take more undergrad courses while doing the PhD (in biomedical science)...on top of grad courses, journal clubs, teaching fellowships, MCAT prep, volunteering, and oh yeah by the way...research papers and dissertations.

I just find it so hard to believe that an excellent performance as a graduate student can't override some blunders in the past. I 'd love to see the look on my advisor's face when I tell her I'm gonna take some undergrad courses which I don't even need for the program. I'd be laughed out of the building.

I'm going to continue doing some more research on this, but if this is the general consensus everywhere I ask, theres no way I could do it while in grad school. It would be a little funny to take undergrad classes after the PhD was completed too. I'm sure you know somebody

Unfortunately, what you or I or any other poster here thinks is ludicrious is besides the point. Having a competitive UG GPA is a hoop. If you want to get to the other side and become a med student, you have to jump through a *lot* of hoops. (And the need for constant hoop-jumping doesn't improve once you're in med school, I can tell you that.) Or you turn and walk away, or you try to force your way around it and hope for the best. No one can make you do anything, obviously, and it's hard for us to give you advice when we don't know your whole app. Some people do manage to beat the odds, and unfortunately a lot of others don't.

My story is that I was advised by an admissions dean to do a year of postbac and retake all of the prereqs for grades. This was *after* I graduated with a 4.0 for my PhD in chemistry, and this was *after* I took the MCAT and scored a 43S on it. Just to put this into perspective for you, I literally tied with one other person for the highest MCAT score in the entire *country* out of nearly 35,000 people who took the test during my administration, and I had a *perfect* grad school GPA. I was *teaching* UG chem courses. So yeah, I wasn't too thrilled either about being told to retake the classes along with the kids I had been teaching the previous semester. In the end, I decided not to do it. I did fine in the app process, and I got accepted to multiple excellent schools, several with full scholarships. But the one school that I most wanted to attend was the first to reject me presecondary, and I was rejected by about 1/3 of the other schools that I applied to as well. Would I have done better with a year of post bac? Probably. It all worked out for me in the end, but it sure ain't no picnic applying with a subpar (or gradeless) UG record, even if your grad record and MCAT score are both absolutely stellar. Consider yourself forewarned, and best of luck to you with whatever path you choose. I think if you do really well on the MCAT and you apply very broadly, you may be able to get away with skipping the post bac.

 

[QofQuimica]

There is not a distinction between undergrad and grad GPA.

This is not true. AMCAS most certainly *does* calculate separate UG and grad GPAs, unless they've changed things this year.

 

[Scottish Chap]

I fear that I might not even get into a PhD program with a 3.0 GPA and might have to do a Masters or something.

Most Ph.D. programs - even some of the competitive ones - don't really care as long as the GPA is above 3.0. The department I worked in for my Ph.D. was ranked 13 in the U.S. when I was as this particular school, and one candidate gained admission with a sub-3.0 GPA....but his GRE was almost perfect and he had extensive research experience in industry.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

I've been out of the loop for a few days.
Yes, ADCOM is the admissions committee, which is made up of anything at anytime that someone might put together. Day-laborers, I think.
If you get an invitation to interview and the interview committee likes you, you will get in or wait-listed. If you show improvement from mistakes in the past, you may not get John Hopkins, but you will get in somewhere.

Q to QofQuimica: when did you take the MCAT? in 05/06 or did you take it awhile back when a grad student?

 

[QofQuimica]

I've been out of the loop for a few days.
Yes, ADCOM is the admissions committee, which is made up of anything at anytime that someone might put together. Day-laborers, I think.
If you get an invitation to interview and the interview committee likes you, you will get in or wait-listed. If you show improvement from mistakes in the past, you may not get John Hopkins, but you will get in somewhere.

Q to QofQuimica: when did you take the MCAT? in 05/06 or did you take it awhile back when a grad student?

I took it as a grad student in August 2004. I'm an M2, not an M1. 🙂

Someone suggested on SDN once that adcoms choose applicants by throwing all of the files down the stairs and seeing which ones fly the furthest. It almost sounds plausible to me. 😉

 

[ophidianphan]

Q and PhD2007...

Thanks very much for the lengthy and educational responses. From what I have pieced together so far, this is my broad plan.

1) Take as many undergrad classes as I can in the remaining years I have with the PhD. I'm going to try to do one a semester starting next spring, which should get me maybe 15-18 science credits to improve apon my GPA.
2) Get in as much clinical volunteer work in as possible. i do work in a biomedical science dept., and my institution has both MD and PhDs, so this shouldnt be too difficult anyway.
3) MCAT prep for 3 years hardcore, haha. With how I normally do on standarized tests, I know that ill prob. never get a 40 or close to it, as you accomplised Q.
4) Apply selectively to schools that are interested in those with research experience. I'm thinking private schools will be more 'up my alley'.

I'm kinda looking forward to taking the classes again (or for the first time)...thing is, I enjoy classes...I just hope i'll have the time for everything. I'm feeling pretty positive about the plan after hearing the positive feedback...thanks.

 

[QofQuimica]

Q and PhD2007...

Thanks very much for the lengthy and educational responses. From what I have pieced together so far, this is my broad plan.

1) Take as many undergrad classes as I can in the remaining years I have with the PhD. I'm going to try to do one a semester starting next spring, which should get me maybe 15-18 science credits to improve apon my GPA.
2) Get in as much clinical volunteer work in as possible. i do work in a biomedical science dept., and my institution has both MD and PhDs, so this shouldnt be too difficult anyway.
3) MCAT prep for 3 years hardcore, haha. With how I normally do on standarized tests, I know that ill prob. never get a 40 or close to it, as you accomplised Q.
4) Apply selectively to schools that are interested in those with research experience. I'm thinking private schools will be more 'up my alley'.

I'm kinda looking forward to taking the classes again (or for the first time)...thing is, I enjoy classes...I just hope i'll have the time for everything. I'm feeling pretty positive about the plan after hearing the positive feedback...thanks.

Luckily, you don't need to get a 40. 🙂 Contrary to the impression you tend to get from reading SDN, very few people earn scores in the 40s. Aim to get at least a 30, and your MCAT score will be reasonably competitive for most allopathic programs. I think it's a good idea to take a few UG classes if you can like you're planning. You won't be able to improve your GPA much, but my impression is that having such a consistent record of recent excellent grades will help. The other thing you might consider doing is calling a few schools and asking for some pre-app counseling. Do it now, before you're ready to apply and while you have time to implement their suggestions. Once your file is active, they won't be able to meet to talk to you about your app. Ask them what else you can do improve your competitiveness as an applicant (classes, ECs, whatever).

Don't study for the MCAT excessively; you'll burn yourself out. I studied for 10 weeks, and I was about ready to go roaring crazy by the end. You reach a point where you're just saturated, and more studying isn't going to cram another single thing into those brain cells. Hurricane Charley hit FL the weekend I was supposed to take the test, so I ended up being forced to take an unplanned two week break before taking the MCAT. As catastrophic as it seemed at the time, having those two weeks off was the best thing that could have possibly happened to me. Seriously.

Best of luck to you--this isn't an easy journey, but you can do it if you really want it badly enough.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

Previous advice matchs much of my own experience. Enjoy yourself and build your overall knowledge rather than study for one exam. A good foundation of science concepts is best for the MCAT.

I did not get a 43S. I did get an S and there was a 3 in my score but not a 4. In most years no one has scored above 41; I'll have to look at the AMCAS site to see what the high score was in '04. In short, above 30 is adequate if they like you and you show you are committed to medicine. During your rotations, no one cares about your research, they care about treating people.

good luck to all.

 

[gbwillner]

Hey everyone. I would appreciate some advice in this manner.

I'm currently pursuing a PhD in electrophysiology (retinal if anybody is interested), and am possibly planning to get into an MD program afterwards. I haven't yet taken the MCAT, and should have a good 3 more years to prepare for it as well.

I'm worried about my undergrad GPA influencing my acceptance into Med school...it was hovering around 3.0ish. My Grad GPA should be closer to 3.9+ when all is said and done however. Do you guys think I can be forgiven for my undergrad performance, considering a strong grad GPA and strong publication record as well?

It sounds from your post that you've changed career goals over time and are now considering medicine. Is this correct? I am wondering what year graduate student you are as well... I get the feeling you are early on in the process.

Just some general advice from a MSTPer...

1) what do you want to do with your life? If you want to do medicine, why are you pursuing a PhD???? PhDs are TONS of work, and in my experience, much more difficult than an MD (not speaking of matriculating, of course). If you want to just do an MD and think the PhD is a way of getting there... put yourself out of your misery now before it gets worse.

2) No one will give a crap about your graduate GPA, because it is meaningless. The whole point of the GPA is to compare you to other applicants- since most have no graduate GPA, it's not a fair comparison. Furthermore (and most importantly) graduate GPAs are very dependent on the school. Some public schools I know hand out A's to everyone just for showing up, others give out 1 A per class. It is entirely institution dependent because after your qualifying exam no one will ever see that grade again.

3) If you REALLY want the MD- there are other, less competitive ways of getting there. Consider foregin medical schools or osteopathic programs. I'm not saying you can't/won't get into an allopathic program, but you may need to consider alternatives.

4) having the research and publications can help you a little bit.

5) If Texas weighs your graduate GPA, and you want to get into med school, you'd be a FOOL if you didn't consider moving there. There are some excellent public schools in the state.

Good luck, and keep it real...

 

[ophidianphan]

It sounds from your post that you've changed career goals over time and are now considering medicine. Is this correct? I am wondering what year graduate student you are as well... I get the feeling you are early on in the process.

Just some general advice from a MSTPer...

1) what do you want to do with your life? If you want to do medicine, why are you pursuing a PhD???? PhDs are TONS of work, and in my experience, much more difficult than an MD (not speaking of matriculating, of course). If you want to just do an MD and think the PhD is a way of getting there... put yourself out of your misery now before it gets worse.

2) No one will give a crap about your graduate GPA, because it is meaningless. The whole point of the GPA is to compare you to other applicants- since most have no graduate GPA, it's not a fair comparison. Furthermore (and most importantly) graduate GPAs are very dependent on the school. Some public schools I know hand out A's to everyone just for showing up, others give out 1 A per class. It is entirely institution dependent because after your qualifying exam no one will ever see that grade again.

3) If you REALLY want the MD- there are other, less competitive ways of getting there. Consider foregin medical schools or osteopathic programs. I'm not saying you can't/won't get into an allopathic program, but you may need to consider alternatives.

4) having the research and publications can help you a little bit.

5) If Texas weighs your graduate GPA, and you want to get into med school, you'd be a FOOL if you didn't consider moving there. There are some excellent public schools in the state.

Good luck, and keep it real...

Thanks for your thoughts.

The bottom line with me is I have the soul of a researcher, so no matter what I was going to do, the PhD is something I have always wanted. I'm really enjoying it so far, its truly challenging.

The idea of having the dual MD/PhD is very intruiguing to me, more each day. Ideally, if I do end up persuing both the degrees fully, I would hope to stay in an academic setting, running a lab as my main line of work. On the other hand, I am a caring and social person, and I feel having patients would be incredible as well.

I'm just figuring all these things out for myself now. I'm not like some people I know who just knew they wanted the MD/PhD and went straight for it. I'm young as well, i'll only be 25 or 26 by the time I'm done with the PhD, so thats another reason why im really giving the dual degree some serious thought...along with the fact that I think it's the most challenging and rewarding of any goal that I might persue as a professional.

So, all in all, I really need to do some soul-searching on the matter. I'm just trying to scratch the surface here b/c I can't figure out if I want to do the MD or not. I'm trying not to make any rash decisions, and I've given myself a timetable to think about it (till the end of next fall).

any comments are helpful, thanks so much so far everyone

 

[QofQuimica]

Previous advice matchs much of my own experience. Enjoy yourself and build your overall knowledge rather than study for one exam. A good foundation of science concepts is best for the MCAT.

I did not get a 43S. I did get an S and there was a 3 in my score but not a 4. In most years no one has scored above 41; I'll have to look at the AMCAS site to see what the high score was in '04. In short, above 30 is adequate if they like you and you show you are committed to medicine. During your rotations, no one cares about your research, they care about treating people.

good luck to all.

You won't be able to tell how many people scored above a 41 from the AAMC website. It's such a small percentage of people who earn those scores (less than 0.05% of test-takers) that it rounds down to 0.00%. The only reason I even know the info I posted before is because I wrote to the AAMC and asked them. They told me that for the Aug. 2004 administration, there were eight 42s, two 43s, and no 44s or 45s. I have never asked about any other administrations, but I am sure a few people did score above a 41 in 2005 and 2006 also. Assuming the numbers stay fairly constant from year to year, there are probably around fifteen to twenty 42s and maybe half a dozen 43s every year, with an occasional 44 or 45. None of them will show up on the AAMC website graphs though.

ophidianphan, how far into your PhD are you? Could you stop with an MS and apply to med school sooner? I don't know how you feel about doing that, but it's a lot easier to get a PhD as a med student than it is to get an MD as a grad student.

 

[ophidianphan]

ophidianphan, how far into your PhD are you? Could you stop with an MS and apply to med school sooner? I don't know how you feel about doing that, but it's a lot easier to get a PhD as a med student than it is to get an MD as a grad student.

I've thought about it, but I've decided not to consider it. I received an NSF fellowship (that's keeping me very comfortable as a PhD student if you catch my drift) for the next two years, and it's just getting started. The bottom line here for me is I really don't mind doing them separately. Plus I like the idea of having a lot of time to fill in undergrad courses if i feel the need, get some weekend volunteer experience in a clinical setting, ect.

Here's a tangent: As I research more into what MD/PhDs do after school, some things really bug me about how we do things. It seems as if most times, the MD/PhD will tend to have to choose between the post-doc or a residency, as opposed to getting some sort of dual experience.

Why not have more opportunities for MD/PhDs to do a dual residency/post-doc in an academic setting. I know this sounds like a ton of time, but why not make it happen some how? Or does this type of thing exist, and I just haven't heard about it as of yet?

I'm not in this for the money, obviously. I just want to know how often MD/PhDs get to run a lab and see patients as well on a normal basis. Truthfully, the lab is more important to me. But, I feel like I would have something unique to offer patients as well, and thats the driving force behind my conundrum right now. I like how confused I'm getting the more I learn about this and that.

 

[RxnMan]

Here's a tangent: As I research more into what MD/PhDs do after school, some things really bug me about how we do things. It seems as if most times, the MD/PhD will tend to have to choose between the post-doc or a residency, as opposed to getting some sort of dual experience.

Why not have more opportunities for MD/PhDs to do a dual residency/post-doc in an academic setting. I know this sounds like a ton of time, but why not make it happen some how? Or does this type of thing exist, and I just haven't heard about it as of yet?

There's a few programs like what you're looking for listed on the APSA website. Many are combined fellowships, where you'd (generally) get subspecialist training after a separate internal medicine (IM) residency and a PhD (3 residency + 4 PhD & speciality). There's some "accelerated pathway" programs too through the ABIM, where you have an abbreviated residency (2 residency + 4 PhD & subspeciality).

 

[Universe_Explorer]

Sorry, I'm not a very frequent poster or I would have responded to one of your earlier threads. As people have told you, it's a strange road from PhD to MD - no matter how well you did in grad school, undergrad grades and MCATs are still what they're looking at. I think it's due to the large number of applicants each school has. I found that schools didn't even know I was IN grad school until I got an interview. My undergrad grades were not super-med-student stellar, and my MCAT score was good, but certainly nowhere near as great as the stuff you see posted on SDN. First, make sure you want to do this and that it is for the right reasons. I assume that's already the case, so I won't dwell on it. I saw that some people are recommending retaking undergrad courses, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. In a way, it may get you some more interviews, but it's also kind of a waste of time and money in my eyes. Many premeds are extremely concentrated on the end result (get in to best med school, get in to best residency), rather than the worthwhile journey - as far as I'm concerned, if you passed a class, why take it over just to prove you can remember more the second time around? Why not take a different class and learn something new? You're already doing that, being in graduate school. Anyway, I would use it as plan B. My advice would be to study hard for the MCATs - maybe even take a kaplan course if it's been awhile since undergrad (for me, I hadn't had physics of general chem in 6+ years), and see how you do. You can do this (3 nights a week plus a few saturdays) while still working full time in the lab. If you rock it, then apply. If you don't, think about retaking some classes. This is just a different opinion - I certainly don't think you'd hurt your chances by retaking classses (unless of course, you did worse the second time around), I'm just not sure I'd do it unless it was absolutely necessary - it would suck to spend a lot of time stuying for Physics and get scooped on a paper in the meantime...I also think it's just as important to make sure the timing is right. If you think you'll be defending in 2 years or less, then you have time to take the MCAT, apply to schools, and finish your doctorate. However, timelines are awfully hard to stick to in grad school. What I'm saying is, how devoted are you to getting your PhD? It was extremely important to me to finish - I wouldn't have matriculated to med school if I couldn't have defended first - and if that's the case, you need to start talking to your PI and getting on the same page. Good luck!

 

[ophidianphan]

Sorry, I'm not a very frequent poster or I would have responded to one of your earlier threads. As people have told you, it's a strange road from PhD to MD - no matter how well you did in grad school, undergrad grades and MCATs are still what they're looking at. I think it's due to the large number of applicants each school has. I found that schools didn't even know I was IN grad school until I got an interview. My undergrad grades were not super-med-student stellar, and my MCAT score was good, but certainly nowhere near as great as the stuff you see posted on SDN. First, make sure you want to do this and that it is for the right reasons. I assume that's already the case, so I won't dwell on it. I saw that some people are recommending retaking undergrad courses, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. In a way, it may get you some more interviews, but it's also kind of a waste of time and money in my eyes. Many premeds are extremely concentrated on the end result (get in to best med school, get in to best residency), rather than the worthwhile journey - as far as I'm concerned, if you passed a class, why take it over just to prove you can remember more the second time around? Why not take a different class and learn something new? You're already doing that, being in graduate school. Anyway, I would use it as plan B. My advice would be to study hard for the MCATs - maybe even take a kaplan course if it's been awhile since undergrad (for me, I hadn't had physics of general chem in 6+ years), and see how you do. You can do this (3 nights a week plus a few saturdays) while still working full time in the lab. If you rock it, then apply. If you don't, think about retaking some classes. This is just a different opinion - I certainly don't think you'd hurt your chances by retaking classses (unless of course, you did worse the second time around), I'm just not sure I'd do it unless it was absolutely necessary - it would suck to spend a lot of time stuying for Physics and get scooped on a paper in the meantime...I also think it's just as important to make sure the timing is right. If you think you'll be defending in 2 years or less, then you have time to take the MCAT, apply to schools, and finish your doctorate. However, timelines are awfully hard to stick to in grad school. What I'm saying is, how devoted are you to getting your PhD? It was extremely important to me to finish - I wouldn't have matriculated to med school if I couldn't have defended first - and if that's the case, you need to start talking to your PI and getting on the same page. Good luck!

AGreed, Agreed, Agreed. Thanks very much for your time. Awesome stuff. And, believe me, if my PhD isn't done in time, I'll be differing until it is. I only want to be a physician if I can be a PS, and the best way to go about that is to have both degrees IMHO.

Well, anyway, as for taking new classes...I'm going to do just that. I'm signing up for an undergrad Anatomy class, which I never took otherwise as an undergrad. I feel like in doing this, I'm signing up for 15 years of more training!! Woo Hoo here we go!

 

[1Path]

I found that schools didn't even know I was IN grad school until I got an interview.

I think when you're coming from a different background what ever that is, you owe it to yourself to sell yourself before you submit your application. I'm at least a year before applying, but I stay in contact with the schools on my list on a fairly regular basis.

 

[Lonelion87]

This is a *bit* off-topic, but does anyone know of any great resources for 'Pre-PhDs'? Is there a forum that exists for people considering grad school in the sciences?

I am juggling the whole MD vs. MD/PhD vs. PhD thing as well, and I figured I should check out what the PhD life is like beyond what I know from my own research experience.

 

[RxnMan]

This is a *bit* off-topic, but does anyone know of any great resources for 'Pre-PhDs'? Is there a forum that exists for people considering grad school in the sciences?

I am juggling the whole MD vs. MD/PhD vs. PhD thing as well, and I figured I should check out what the PhD life is like beyond what I know from my own research experience.

Try Google-ing "PhD comics forum." They used to be a pretty good community.

 

[QofQuimica]

This is a *bit* off-topic, but does anyone know of any great resources for 'Pre-PhDs'? Is there a forum that exists for people considering grad school in the sciences?

I am juggling the whole MD vs. MD/PhD vs. PhD thing as well, and I figured I should check out what the PhD life is like beyond what I know from my own research experience.

I don't really know of any. The few grad students who post here are mostly people who are doing that grad school to med school thing. I'm in med school now, but I was still a grad student when I first joined SDN, and it was pretty lonely. 😛

Maybe we can help you though. Instead of picking by degree, it's better to start by asking what your career goals are. Then it will be easier to figure out what path you should take to get there. So, what do you want to be when you grow up?

 

[Lonelion87]

I don't really know of any. The few grad students who post here are mostly people who are doing that grad school to med school thing. I'm in med school now, but I was still a grad student when I first joined SDN, and it was pretty lonely. 😛

Maybe we can help you though. Instead of picking by degree, it's better to start by asking what your career goals are. Then it will be easier to figure out what path you should take to get there. So, what do you want to be when you grow up?

What I want to be when I grow up? Well I suppose I better hurry up and figure this out...I have to apply next spring.

I suffer from excited-about-too much-itis.

-Right now (and for the past two years), I have been doing protein-protein interaction research on various transcription factors related to cardiac muscle development. Pretty neat stuff! I could see myself continuing in this field after my undergraduate work.

-I have an interest in infectious diseases. Just recently, I thought it would be a really 'cool' job to perhaps get a MD/PhD (Immunology) and split time between the lab and clinic. I could see myself doing this in the future, and it seems it would be non-stop thrills (I'm a nerd?).

-I have an interest in oncology, and investigating the causes of cancer on the molecular level. I think one could pursue this field without the MD, but I would like to be able to have physician-patient interactions and apply the current treatments/technologies in a continuity of care setting.

-I have been told, and I believe that genetics holds the future of medicine. A career in Medical Genetics would be interesting...provided I get to do some work on the molecular level. This idea is a bit more general, and could fall under bullet-point one.

Anyway, as you can see, my interests are a bit 'over the map'. I hope what you can discern about me from reading this is that I wouldn't be satisfied just being a physician. I would like to make a contribution to the advancement of scientific knowledge, and my interests predominantly circle around the molecular side of things. On the other side, I am also quites social and I don't fit the 'lab-rat' personality. I would like to interact with patients and be able to follow along with their story (continuity of care).

Any thoughts, or suggestions for this mis-guided Pre-Med/Pre-Doc/Pre-What?

 

[QofQuimica]

What I want to be when I grow up? Well I suppose I better hurry up and figure this out...I have to apply next spring.

I suffer from excited-about-too much-itis.

-Right now (and for the past two years), I have been doing protein-protein interaction research on various transcription factors related to cardiac muscle development. Pretty neat stuff! I could see myself continuing in this field after my undergraduate work.

-I have an interest in infectious diseases. Just recently, I thought it would be a really 'cool' job to perhaps get a MD/PhD (Immunology) and split time between the lab and clinic. I could see myself doing this in the future, and it seems it would be non-stop thrills (I'm a nerd?).

-I have an interest in oncology, and investigating the causes of cancer on the molecular level. I think one could pursue this field without the MD, but I would like to be able to have physician-patient interactions and apply the current treatments/technologies in a continuity of care setting.

-I have been told, and I believe that genetics holds the future of medicine. A career in Medical Genetics would be interesting...provided I get to do some work on the molecular level. This idea is a bit more general, and could fall under bullet-point one.

Anyway, as you can see, my interests are a bit 'over the map'. I hope what you can discern about me from reading this is that I wouldn't be satisfied just being a physician. I would like to make a contribution to the advancement of scientific knowledge, and my interests predominantly circle around the molecular side of things. On the other side, I am also quites social and I don't fit the 'lab-rat' personality. I would like to interact with patients and be able to follow along with their story (continuity of care).

Any thoughts, or suggestions for this mis-guided Pre-Med/Pre-Doc/Pre-What?

I hate this stereotype of PhDs having no personality. It isn't true in most cases! You really do need to be a people person if you want to be a successful researcher, because most research is done in teams, and you need to get along with your collaborators. Granted, it's different than interacting with the public, but most PhDs are *not* holed up by themselves in some lab with no human contact!

You have a lot of research interests, so your problem is going to be the need to narrow them down, unless you plan to earn half a dozen different PhDs. 😉 Graduate work is very specialized; you go into great depth about a narrow subject. I think that someone like you would actually be better served in an MD or MD/MS program, where the education is relatively shallow but much broader. You can still do research with a plain MD or an MD/MS, and you'll be exposed to many more new fields without being pressured to choose one specialty early on. If you decide you really want to study a particular topic in depth, you can always add on a PhD later. Plus you'll get your patient contact. 🙂

 

[Lonelion87]

I hate this stereotype of PhDs having no personality. It isn't true in most cases! You really do need to be a people person if you want to be a successful researcher, because most research is done in teams, and you need to get along with your collaborators. Granted, it's different than interacting with the public, but most PhDs are *not* holed up by themselves in some lab with no human contact!

You have a lot of research interests, so your problem is going to be the need to narrow them down, unless you plan to earn half a dozen different PhDs. 😉 Graduate work is very specialized; you go into great depth about a narrow subject. I think that someone like you would actually be better served in an MD or MD/MS program, where the education is relatively shallow but much broader. You can still do research with a plain MD or an MD/MS, and you'll be exposed to many more new fields without being pressured to choose one specialty early on. If you decide you really want to study a particular topic in depth, you can always add on a PhD later. Plus you'll get your patient contact. 🙂

Yes, perhaps my word choice in describing the stereotypical PhD is a bit off. I do recognize that there is a collaboration, team work, etc. in graduate studies...but, in my experience the PIs and students I have worked with seemed a bit out-of-touch with the world around them. I'm not implying that this is the case across the board, but I suppose that my perception is a bit skewed by my anecdotes.

A half a dozen PhDs would be 5 too many ! I will consider your suggestion to take the MD/MS (do such programs even exist?) route and will see if I can dig some people who have done something similar to this.

Either way, thank you very much for your time and advice. I know you all are probably very busy, and so I am very appreciative.

 

[CCLCMer]

Yes, perhaps my word choice in describing the stereotypical PhD is a bit off. I do recognize that there is a collaboration, team work, etc. in graduate studies...but, in my experience the PIs and students I have worked with seemed a bit out-of-touch with the world around them. I'm not implying that this is the case across the board, but I suppose that my perception is a bit skewed by my anecdotes.

A half a dozen PhDs would be 5 too many ! I will consider your suggestion to take the MD/MS (do such programs even exist?) route and will see if I can dig some people who have done something similar to this.

Either way, thank you very much for your time and advice. I know you all are probably very busy, and so I am very appreciative.

Funny you should ask. I'm an MD/MS student at CCLCM. I just posted about MD/MS programs in another thread in here. If you want to look at some formal MD/MS programs, read this: http://cclcmstudent.blogspot.com/2007/08/faq-30-do-other-schools-besides-cclcm.html There are probably others, and I'll keep adding more when I find them.

 

[Lanieou]

x

 

[1Path]

I don't really know of any.

Ummmm yeah, actually there IS a pre doc forum on the net!😉

 

[QofQuimica]

Hello all.
I need some advice (or maybe just some calming down). I just finished my PhD in Microbiology and am applying to med school this year (University of Oklahoma for various reasons). I had a fairly lucrative grad career with several first author papers in good journals and even a project that went from the test tube to patients. My GPA undergrad and grad is 3.75. I am pretty well-rounded (musician, active on campus, blah, blah, blah). I even have a great story about my journey from basic science to translational medicine. Problem? MCAT scores are not great. And by not great I mean they sucked. Hard. A lot. 24M (6 PS, 8 V, 10 Bio). I defended right around the time I took the MCAT. Not a great excuse but there it is. Advice? Words of wisdom? Do I have a chance?

I suspect you're probably going to have to retake, especially with that 6. 🙁 But you should call the U of OK and ask them whether you have a fighting chance with a 24 MCAT. You sound like a really strong candidate otherwise, and maybe they'll be willing to give you a break. It doesn't hurt to ask, right? Congrats on finishing your PhD, and to you. 🙂

 

[Lanieou]

x

 

[QofQuimica]

Thanks!! Yeah, a low PS was expected but I never did that poorly on a practice test. 🙁 I think that I will call someone. You are right...doesn't hurt to ask! I will let you know how it goes (if only there were an emoticon for crossing my fingers)!

If they tell you to retake, no biggie, except that you'll probably have to apply next year. Can you post doc for a year, worst case scenario? Hope it works out; come back and let us know. 🙂

 

[Lanieou]

x

 

[QofQuimica]

Yeah. I hope not though....I ain't getting any younger! 😉 "Tick tock" as my mother likes to remind me! J/K
Yup. Actually that is what I am currently doing. I might even switch to a lab that does translational medicine. So at least I will have a paycheck and hopefully a few more publications. I will let you know! Thanks again and best of luck to you!

How old are you? I started med school at age 31, and if you tell me that you're still in your mid-twenties, I am going to hunt you down and slap you silly (and maybe your mom too!). 😛 There's never a perfect time to have kids; you have them when you have them. Ask U of OK what their policy is for pregnant students while you're at it, but maybe not during the same phone call. 😉

 

[Lanieou]

x

 

[singlepost]

Sorry to dig up an old post just archiving this along with other posts for people who search for these in the future, like I did.

Don't listen too much to the people who say oh you'll have to go back and bring up your ugrad gpa. Although that is true sometimes, often it's BS based on not even anecdotal evidence, but on biased notions. Based on the percentage of Ph.Ds nationwide ~1.5% and the number of applicants to medical school you'll find that hundreds of Ph.Ds apply every year. I've met three personally during interviews and one (aside from myself in my school).

My stats were 3.15 uGPA, 3.3 Grad gpa, 33MCAT Ph.D in a hard science. I had 4 interviews (one to a top-ten school) and one acceptance. (I also applied late, although I'm not sure if it matters.) The new MSAR shows GPA's for the 90% range but they don't include the outliers, so don't let that discourage you. Although my previous record did come up, most said that they had no doubt I could handle the material. You'll find plenty of posts of Ph.Ds who come back on here (like me) to call the BS on the people who tell you it's impossible. Just make sure you do the same so that the number of data points increase to add credence to our claims.

Good luck to all future Ph.Ds!

 

[QofQuimica]

Sorry to dig up an old post just archiving this along with other posts for people who search for these in the future, like I did.

Don't listen too much to the people who say oh you'll have to go back and bring up your ugrad gpa. Although that is true sometimes, often it's BS based on not even anecdotal evidence, but on biased notions. Based on the percentage of Ph.Ds nationwide ~1.5% and the number of applicants to medical school you'll find that hundreds of Ph.Ds apply every year. I've met three personally during interviews and one (aside from myself in my school).

My stats were 3.15 uGPA, 3.3 Grad gpa, 33MCAT Ph.D in a hard science. I had 4 interviews (one to a top-ten school) and one acceptance. (I also applied late, although I'm not sure if it matters.) The new MSAR shows GPA's for the 90% range but they don't include the outliers, so don't let that discourage you. Although my previous record did come up, most said that they had no doubt I could handle the material. You'll find plenty of posts of Ph.Ds who come back on here (like me) to call the BS on the people who tell you it's impossible. Just make sure you do the same so that the number of data points increase to add credence to our claims.

Good luck to all future Ph.Ds!

Congrats on your acceptance to medical school.

You know, I'm struck by the fact that you seem to believe that your anecdote, if coupled with a few other anecdotes, would somehow comprise a fact. However, I'm sure I don't need to tell you of all people that unfortunately, this isn't the case. I'm also struck by the fact that you wrote this post to refute a straw man, namely that others have claimed it's "impossible" to get accepted to med school with a lower than average GPA. Looking through this thread, the only post that contains the word "impossible" up to this point, is yours.

It is certainly true that several dozen PhDs apply to medical school every year. It is also true that a minority of candidates (with and without PhDs) gets accepted with an undergrad GPA significantly below the average, as you did. However, it is *not* true that most people who apply with a GPA like yours are going to be as successful as you were. As you yourself pointed out, you, my friend, are an outlier.

The fact that your anecdote does not "prove" that other people with lower-than-average GPAs have a high chance of getting into medical school in no way diminishes your accomplishment. Getting into medical school is difficult regardless, and I think many people will agree with me that it's admirable and even inspiring that you managed to beat the odds. However, for you to post here that because you did it, anyone else can do it too, is just as disingenuous as it would be for me to post that because I got a 40+ MCAT score, anyone else can do it too. All else being equal, people with GPAs far below the average will have an odds of acceptance that is also far below the average. That is going to be true no matter how many anecdotes you find to the contrary.

Congrats again on your acceptance, and best of luck to you in medical school. I'm sure you will do fine with handling the material. 🙂