MD/DO preferences

[Cmoney$$]

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Hey all. I'm starting the process of applying to SMPs right now. If I did a DO SMP, would this hurt my chances when applying to MD schools? And vice versa, if I did an MD SMP, would I have less of a chance at osteopathic schools because they would figure that means I'm leaning towards MD?

 

[deleted936470]

yes, no.

 

[Goro]

Hey all. I'm starting the process of applying to SMPs right now. If I did a DO SMP, would this hurt my chances when applying to MD schools? And vice versa, if I did an MD SMP, would I have less of a chance at osteopathic schools because they would figure that means I'm leaning towards MD?

No, it won't hurt. Kids from our SMP get into MD schools all the time. We also see kids from MD SMPs a lot as well, and it's not an issue.

Just do well.

 

[Isoval]

yes, no.

No, no*

 

[deleted936470]

Yes, no*

FTFY.

Compare a "DO post-bacc" with a SMP linked to a MD school, preferably one with its own medical school. One is better. Which do you think would increases your overall chances to MD admission?

If you're going to fork over $50K+ on such a program and you're boning for the MD, then yes, a DO program would hurt your chances relative to official SMPs.

 

[Isoval]

FTFY.

Compare a "DO post-bacc" with a SMP linked to a MD school, preferably one with its own medical school. One is better. Which do you think would increases your overall chances to MD admission?

If you're going to fork over $50K+ on such a program and you're boning for the MD, then yes, a DO program would hurt your chances relative to official SMPs.

This is demonstrably false apart from the specific home-program, and even that only has bearing because it was using faculty that are associated with the school in question, not because it was an “MD- or DO-associated program”.

Across the board, it doesn’t much matter if the program was associated with a DO school or an MD school.

 

[deleted936470]

This is demonstrably false apart from the specific home-program, and even that only has bearing because it was using faculty that are associated with the school in question, not because it was an “MD- or DO-associated program”.

Across the board, it doesn’t much matter if the program was associated with a DO school or an MD school.

Please demonstrate how it is false, then, across the board.

OP - this is the advice I got when "shopping" around for various post-bacc programs when I was in your position one year ago:
The Dean of Admissions at OHSU and an enrollment adviser at Wayne State both stated to me that if I was seeking admissions to a MD school and in order to enhance my application, I should choose prioritize 1) established SMPs at schools with their own medical schools 2) established SMPs with good track records 3) A DIY post-bacc.

DO SMPs are not worth the money. So, I'd ask myself, am I looking for DO -or- MD admission? If DO, take the cheap and convenient route to show academic reinvention, if you're really set on MD, then make sure you make a wise investment.

 

[paradoxic_toxic]

DO SMPs are not worth the money.

If you decide DO is the only way to go, then I feel like Edward Via's and TouroCOM-NY's SMP programs are worth it because of the conditional acceptance clause.

But if you're going to spend all that time, effort, and money, then you might as well try for an MD SMP that provide guaranteed interviews/conditional acceptances.

 

[Cornfed101]

Attend the program that makes the most sense financially, don't worry about what school it is attached to. I did my post-bacc at a chiropractic college, and it hasn't been a detriment at all (and it saved me 10s of thousands of dollars)

The Dean of Admissions at OHSU and an enrollment adviser at Wayne State both stated to me that if I was seeking admissions to a MD school in order to enhance my application, I should choose prioritize 1) established SMPs at schools with their own medical schools 2) established SMPs with good track records 3) A DIY post-bacc.

Did they get a commission if you attended the SMP there? I think what @Isoval is saying is that it would only benefit you at OHSU or Wayne State respectively. If you attended an SMP at OHSU it wouldn't help you at Wayne State.

 

[deleted936470]

Attend the program that makes the most sense financially, don't worry about what school it is attached to. I did my post-bacc at a chiropractic college, and it hasn't been a detriment at all (and it saved me 10s of thousands of dollars)



Did they get a commission if you attended the SMP there? I think what @Isoval is saying is that it would only benefit you at OHSU or Wayne State respectively. If you attended an SMP at OHSU it wouldn't help you at Wayne State.

They don't have "official" SMP programs at those schools and I am not simply referring to a biology master's program.

 

[Goro]

FTFY.

Compare a "DO post-bacc" with a SMP linked to a MD school, preferably one with its own medical school. One is better. Which do you think would increases your overall chances to MD admission?

If you're going to fork over $50K+ on such a program and you're boning for the MD, then yes, a DO program would hurt your chances relative to official SMPs.

Only a pre-med would think like this.

They're all medical schools. The SMPs teach Anatomy, Physiology, Histology, Neuroscience, Pathology...same stuff the med students get, often side by side with the med students.

Last time I looked, the same subjects were taught in all medical schools.

Objections? Tell it my kids who got into MD schools.

 

[deleted936470]

Only a pre-med would think like this.

They're all medical schools. The SMPs teach Anatomy, Physiology, Histology, Neuroscience, Pathology...same stuff the med students get, often side by side with the med students.

Last time I looked, the same subjects were taught in all medical schools.

Regardless if it's a pre-med's opinion or the pope's, it's obvious that if you spend that much money on any program then you better maximize your chances.
For a MD hopeful, If you're telling me that getting a 4.0 at WCUCOM's MSBS is the same as getting a 4.0 at Cincinnati's SMP, then we can just agree to disagree.

 

[deleted936470]

I'll kick back an email to actual MD admissions staff to let them know that online strangers disagree, but OP, I'd think long and hard before making such an expensive commitment.

 

[DocOrBust2019]

I'll kick back an email to actual MD admissions staff to let them know that online strangers disagree, but OP, I'd think long and hard before making such an expensive commitment.

Lol Goro is a DO adcom... There are many adcoms here.

 

[DocOrBust2019]

We know, thanks for contributing?

An DO adcom with conflicting information as that given from other adcoms, who himself stated and I quote"d) Thus, take 1-2 years of a DIY post-bac, or a official 1 year SMP, preferably one given at a medical school. Do well in either of these programs. A 3.5+ should suffice for a DO school, while 3.7+ will be needed for an MD school "

but who has since change their minds, evidently.

I mentioned that since you're referring to them as "strangers online", as if their opinion is worth as much as some random persons with no skin in the game.

Yes, it says do the SMP at a medical school... and get a good GPA at it - target 3.5 to apply to a DO med school or 3.7 for MD. What do you think a DO school is? I don't see what about "Do the SMP at an actual medical school" precludes a college of osteopathic medicine.

I'm sure the MD admissions people whose school wants your SMP tuition is totally unbiased in their guidance to you.

 

[deleted936470]

Lol Goro is a DO adcom... There are many adcoms here.

Just because n=a few as it concerns DO SMP students successfully gaining a MD spot, it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have had better chances through a MD SMP. Perhaps they would’ve gotten into more programs, perhaps even a first choice.
DO schools don’t care, got it, OP asks about MD and the two I listed, in fact, do care. I’m sure there are many others. I’m inclined to believe the MD admissions team who told me as much - who also may have had financial stake in subtly telling me that other SMPs in the nation would likely yield better results. Not the case here but I digress.

 

[Isoval]

Just because n=a few as it concerns DO SMP students successfully gaining a MD spot, it doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have had better chances through a MD SMP. Perhaps they would’ve gotten into more programs, perhaps even a first choice.
DO schools don’t care, got it, OP asks about MD and the two I listed, in fact, do care. I’m sure there are many others. I’m inclined to believe the MD admissions team who told me as much - who also may have had financial stake in subtly telling me that other SMPs in the nation would likely yield better results. Not the case here but I digress.

Multiple Texas MD schools state that an SMP - and then give an example being the one offered by TCOM - may help in reinventing prospective medical students. Can't remember where those pages are, but one of them was TTU Lubbock SOM. If I remember, I'll edit this post later with a link.

On the whole, MD schools do not care whether the SMP was at a DO school or an MD school. I'm not sure why you're so convinced that they do.

 

[deleted936470]

Multiple Texas MD schools state that an SMP - and then give an example being the one offered by TCOM - may help in reinventing prospective medical students. Can't remember where those pages are, but one of them was TTU Lubbock SOM. If I remember, I'll edit this post later with a link.

On the whole, MD schools do not care whether the SMP was at a DO school or an MD school. I'm not sure why you're so convinced that they do.

They care about the rigor edit: name of the post-bacc program. LUCOM’s biomedical master science program and Georgetown’s SMP are comparable in price. They are not similar in program outcomes. If your child was accepted to both, which would you recommend all things being equal? If you say it’s a coin toss, then I promise never to post in this thread again. 🙂

 

[Goro]

They care about the rigor of the post-bacc program. LUCOM’s biomedical master science program and Georgetown’s SMP are comparable in price. They are not similar in program outcomes. If your child was accepted to both, which would you recommend all things being equal? If you say it’s a coin toss, then I promise never to post in this thread again. 🙂

It's a coin toss.

BTW, Gtown's SMP grads have informed us that their linkage to Gtown is poor.

 

[Cornfed101]

They care about the rigor of the post-bacc program. LUCOM’s biomedical master science program and Georgetown’s SMP are comparable in price. They are not similar in program outcomes. If your child was accepted to both, which would you recommend all things being equal? If you say it’s a coin toss, then I promise never to post in this thread again. 🙂

Let’s dispel something here. Is there a DO stigma? Yes, but it doesn’t have anything to do with preclinical education. It may surprise you, but the rigor is exactly the same for the first two years at both MD and DO schools, and since SMPs are basically “doing” that first year or so of medical school it is the same.

This is why it really doesn’t matter where you do it, unless there is a specific linkage you are looking for. Even then, you are probably paying a fortune for that linkage.

 

[goneriding]

My N=1 experience: did BU MAMS. Got very close to a 4.0 GPA. Applied and interviewed broadly at MD schools-- got waitlisted or rejected at all of them. Now I'm at a DO school. I could have saved myself a lot of money, and earned 2+ more years of attending salary if I had just gone to a DO school originally. Just some food for thought. You can do everything right in a SMP, and still get rejected by the MD schools or DO schools.

And from what I have seen at my DO school, our Master's program is much more intense than what I went through at BU...

 

[deleted936470]

Let’s dispel something here. Is there a DO stigma? Yes, but it doesn’t have anything to do with preclinical education. It may surprise you, but the rigor is exactly the same for the first two years at both MD and DO schools, and since SMPs are basically “doing” that first year or so of medical school it is the same.

This is why it really doesn’t matter where you do it, unless there is a specific linkage you are looking for. Even then, you are probably paying a fortune for that linkage.

OK I lied about not posting again, but, I want to avoid any straw-man characterization of my posts.

Closing thoughts:

Rigor is not determined by MD vs DO, but merely by the fact that many if not most of these "DO SMPs" are a total crash grab.
It then follows that their quality is questionable; but yes, certainly all things should be equal if the SMP students are taught along with med students.

Also, no one is talking about linkage here, so I'm not sure what the comments about those are insinuating.

To those who got into your state MD through a "DO SMP", more power to you.

 

[Isoval]

OK I lied about not posting again, but, I want to avoid any straw-man characterization of my posts.

Closing thoughts:

Rigor is not determined by MD vs DO, but merely by the fact that many if not most of these "DO SMPs" are a total crash grab.
It then follows that their quality is questionable; but yes, certainly all things should be equal if the SMP students are taught along with med students.

Also, no one is talking about linkage here, so I'm not sure what the comments about those are insinuating.

To those who got into your state MD through a "DO SMP", more power to you.

I agree much more with this.

Other factors aside, it has nothing to do with the name being an MD- or DO-linked SMP. It has much more to do with the quality of the program and the students it produces.

If the argument is that DO SMP programs are, on average, inferior to MD ones and thus this is why you believe MD programs offer a better chance, we can agree there.

However, the sole fact it is DO-linked does not indicate a poor program or one that has worse odds of MD admission.

 

[Cardboard101]

MD SMP with guaranteed acceptance > DO SMP with guaranteed acceptance > MD SMP with linkage > DO SMP with linkage > DO or MD SMP without linkage.

If the program doesn't have linkage or guaranteed acceptance, then it really doesn't matter which one unless it's well known regionally.

 

[Ho0v-man]

MD SMP with guaranteed acceptance > DO SMP with guaranteed acceptance > MD SMP with linkage > DO SMP with linkage > DO or MD SMP without linkage.

If the program doesn't have linkage or guaranteed acceptance, then it really doesn't matter which one unless it's well known regionally.

This pretty much sums it up. That other poster is like one of those that tries to tier things for no reason other than to make themselves feel good.

 

[FunkyFrog994]

At the end of the day it comes down to how YOU perform at the SMP, not the name/letters associated with the program. The most important thing for you to consider is the success rate of the program at getting its graduates into medical school. The golden rule for SMP GPAs is that a 3.75+ gpa is considered competitive for MD and 3.5+ for DO (in reality your goal should be a 4.0 as it is very obtainable if you're willing to put in the effort). If you're really jonesing for an MD acceptance you now know what you have to do. Finally I'll add that I just graduated from a DO SMP that has sent graduates to UTSW, Baylor and several other well regarded MD programs. I imagine adcoms don't care that the SMP was from a DO, just that the student nailed the audition and demonstrated the ability to survive the rigors of medical school. Good luck.

 

[hungrydoc710]

First of all what's ur MCAT? Let that guide you.

 

[Cmoney$$]

First of all what's ur MCAT? Let that guide you.

MCAT is 518. Cincinnati is my first choice but honestly kinda nervous that the people there would be too smart for me. Competing against med students at a school with average 3.83 GPA and 517 MCAT just sounds pretty ridiculous.

Toledo looks the next choice and sounds more doable. I like that Toledo has research, students speak highly of it, the med school accepts a lot of the MSBS students, and it would give me in-state tuition to Ohio schools (my state only has 1 med school with in state tuition)


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[hungrydoc710]

MCAT is 518. Cincinnati is my first choice but honestly kinda nervous that the people there would be too smart for me. Competing against med students at a school with average 3.83 GPA and 517 MCAT just sounds pretty ridiculous.

Toledo looks the next choice and sounds more doable. I like that Toledo has research, students speak highly of it, the med school accepts a lot of the MSBS students, and it would give me in-state tuition to Ohio schools (my state only has 1 med school with in state tuition)


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You are competing with yourself mainly, no matter where you go. The mentality competing with others won't serve you well in med school or beyond. Play against yourself and you'll get good results. Focus on boards day 1 of school.

Also, with a 518 and 3.8, why in God's name are you thinking about DO school?
Go MD anywhere, study hard to do well on boards. It's a simple game plan - don't overthink it.

 

[Cornfed101]

MCAT is 518. Cincinnati is my first choice but honestly kinda nervous that the people there would be too smart for me. Competing against med students at a school with average 3.83 GPA and 517 MCAT just sounds pretty ridiculous.

A 4.0 GPA doesn't mean that you are smart. It just means that you didn't make stupid mistakes. Anyone can get a 4.0 if they work hard. Don't worry about being smart enough for med school. With a 518 MCAT you are definitely smart enough.

 

[Ho0v-man]

MCAT is 518. Cincinnati is my first choice but honestly kinda nervous that the people there would be too smart for me. Competing against med students at a school with average 3.83 GPA and 517 MCAT just sounds pretty ridiculous.

Toledo looks the next choice and sounds more doable. I like that Toledo has research, students speak highly of it, the med school accepts a lot of the MSBS students, and it would give me in-state tuition to Ohio schools (my state only has 1 med school with in state tuition)


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Why are you even considering smp at all? You’re kind of a stellar applicant.

 

[Cmoney$$]

Why are you even considering smp at all? You’re kind of a stellar applicant.

Sounds like I miscommunicated. My gpa is ~3.3. What i was saying is that doing an SMP program at a school where the students’ averages are 3.8 gpa and 517 MCAT, sounds more difficult than if I were to do an SMP at a school where the students have lower stats.


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[Ho0v-man]

Sounds like I miscommunicated. My gpa is ~3.3. What i was saying is that doing an SMP program at a school where the students’ averages are 3.8 gpa and 517 MCAT, sounds more difficult than if I were to do an SMP at a school where the students have lower stats.


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Ah. Makes sense now.

I’d double check with Goro, but my thought is it likely won’t be different at either place. Med school is med school is med school. I’ve done well in school/boards and I promise my premed stats weren’t even close to yours. Unless it’s a location issue I’d choose the smp at the cheaper school. But keep in mind everyone in the smp will have some deficiencies in their app bc otherwise they wouldn’t be there. there’s absolutely no reason to be intimidated by one smp vs another barring some notoriously terrible reputation IMO.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Our PhD's love the grads from our Post Bac. They hit the ground running during the first year. I dont know about success elsewhere, but I would imagine they are fine. I dont think other med schools discriminate unless it's a prestigious program. Good lu k and best wiahes!

 

[hungrydoc710]

Sounds like I miscommunicated. My gpa is ~3.3. What i was saying is that doing an SMP program at a school where the students’ averages are 3.8 gpa and 517 MCAT, sounds more difficult than if I were to do an SMP at a school where the students have lower stats.


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If you need to go MD, then do an SMP and knock it out of the park and do that.
If you are good with DO, apply first thing when cycle opens again, and get in to lots of programs with your geographical pick.

 

[deleted936470]

Sounds like I miscommunicated. My gpa is ~3.3. What i was saying is that doing an SMP program at a school where the students’ averages are 3.8 gpa and 517 MCAT, sounds more difficult than if I were to do an SMP at a school where the students have lower stats.


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I like how no one answers your question. Yes, some programs are more difficult than others. People who enrolled in a DO SMP are not going to give unbiased advice. Reach out to students in the post-bacc forums and get a feel for how successful they are in specific programs you're interested in.
Ultimately, its apples & oranges. DO SMPs are not comparable to MD SMPs. Little to no similarity in terms of what they can/will do to improve your chances of getting into med school.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I like how no one answers your question. Yes, some programs are more difficult than others. People who enrolled in a DO SMP are not going to give unbiased advice. Reach out to students in the post-bacc forums and get a feel for how successful they are in specific programs you're interested in.
Ultimately, its apples & oranges. DO SMPs are not comparable to MD SMPs. Little to no similarity in terms of what they can/will do to improve your chances of getting into med school.

Not sure which apples your comparing to which oranges. Our PhD's LOVE our Post Bac students. They hit the ground running and do very well in class. I often recommend our Post Bac to students with mediocre stats because it helps with board scores and class work. Residencies are getting more competetive and scraping by for 2 yrs wont help you match.

 

[deleted936470]

Not sure which apples your comparing to which oranges. Our PhD's LOVE our Post Bac students. They hit the ground running and do very well in class. I often recommend our Post Bac to students with mediocre stats because it helps with board scores and class work. Residencies are getting more competetive and scraping by for 2 yrs wont help you match.

That’s awesome, sounds wholesome.

 

[Goro]

That’s awesome, sounds wholesome.

Getting the strong whiff of somebody with a agenda

 

[Angus Avagadro]

That’s awesome, sounds wholesome.

Sounds patronizing

 

[DocOrBust2019]

MD and DO SMPs are BOTH cash grabs. They accept a lot of students who probably would have gotten into med school either way.

I wouldn't base my decision on anything camoixu says in this thread, personally. They are coming across as someone who did a DO SMP and failed to get into med school due to some other deficiency on their app while placing the blame on their SMP.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

MD and DO SMPs are BOTH cash grabs. They accept a lot of students who probably would have gotten into med school either way.

I wouldn't base my decision on anything camoixu says in this thread, personally. They are coming across as someone who did a DO SMP and failed to get into med school due to some other deficiency on their app while placing the blame on their SMP.

I think some are cash grabs. Ours has parameters, I think somewhere between 3.2and 3.5 and your in. Had a 3.7 chem major with a lower MCAT from a local pre med mill and they could not meet the requirement. Another student had stats no med school would touch. Did the post bac, got in, graduated top 10%, matched 1st choice IM outside Chicago. We will give you a shot, but its up to you. If you cant do our post bac, I'm pretty certain you could not do our med school.

 

[DocOrBust2019]

I think some are cash grabs. Ours has parameters, I think somewhere between 3.2and 3.5 and your in. Had a 3.7 chem major with a lower MCAT from a local pre med mill and they could not meet the requirement. Another student had stats no med school would touch. Did the post bac, got in, graduated top 10%, matched 1st choice IM outside Chicago. We will give you a shot, but its up to you. If you cant do our post bac, I'm pretty certain you could not do our med school.

Fair point! I don't mean to say that SMPs and post baccs are a bad idea, especially ones at a med school.

I'm just trying to make the point that they all exist to make money for the schools. They definitely seem worth attending, especially if you're a fringe applicant, if medicine is the only career you can envision for yourself.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Fair point! I don't mean to say that SMPs and post baccs are a bad idea, especially ones at a med school.

I'm just trying to make the point that they all exist to make money for the schools. They definitely seem worth attending, especially if you're a fringe applicant, if medicine is the only career you can envision for yourself.

Absolutely agree. Our in state tuition is on the low side. When recommending our Post Bac, I point out that 1 yr post bac and 4 yrs tuition is cheaper than many 4 yr med schools. Something to consider, especially with board scores and pre clinical grades being scrutinized when applying to residencies.

 

[deleted936470]

MD and DO SMPs are BOTH cash grabs. They accept a lot of students who probably would have gotten into med school either way.

I wouldn't base my decision on anything camoixu says in this thread, personally. They are coming across as someone who did a DO SMP and failed to get into med school due to some other deficiency on their app while placing the blame on their SMP.

lol what? I did not do a SMP and have multiple acceptances so far but u do u

 

[deleted936470]

Sounds patronizing

No I really actually meant that it’s wholesome. It’s what schools that offer those programs should be doing i.e. linkage / preference to their med school for next cycle.

 

[DocOrBust2019]

lol what? I did not do a SMP and have multiple acceptances so far but u do u

I will, thanks.

I only suggested as much because your advice in this matter is suspect at best and directly contradicts what two ADCOM members are in here saying. Congratulations on your acceptances.

 

[Goro]

Fair point! I don't mean to say that SMPs and post baccs are a bad idea, especially ones at a med school.

I'm just trying to make the point that they all exist to make money for the schools. They definitely seem worth attending, especially if you're a fringe applicant, if medicine is the only career you can envision for yourself.

While this is very true, you also have to consider another aspect from an admissions standpoint.

Those students who make it through the program, and at my school this is a sizable number, elect to come to our school. They are in essence like NBA draft picks for the NBA.

We know that they can perform, and they do well in our medical school, or others, including MD programs.

 

[MedMeister]

I went to a somewhat new “SMP” with a linkage to a DO school this last year. I got a 3.8, a great educational year that will benefit my career, and an immediate interview to the associated DO school. The associated DO school ended up rejecting me, but only after I was accepted to 2 other DO schools and 2 MD schools. At all four of my acceptance-interviews so far, my masters program has been a huge part of the conversation and one of the MD interviewers directly stated that the masters program made up for my application’s deficiencies in my previous year’s application. While I would agree an SMP should increase your chances at an associated school, I have a hard time believing that too many adcoms judge DO mp’s that harshly considering the curriculums are the same. Any Master’s program gains credibility by successfully getting students into schools and assuring that those students are adequately prepared for Med school. If an MP fails to do that, then an Adcom might judge them negatively.

 

[LeSamf]

You could always do what I've done and email whatever schools you are interested in and ask if they have a preference.

And just fyi, and I have the emails still, every last one told me that there is no preference and to just do well.