MD: Financially worthwhile?

[Law2Doc]

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Alot of them also have problems with alcohol, because the work is so mind-numbing that they feel like they have to drink at night to kill the pain.

Substance abuse is something seen pretty frequently among physicians as well. If you are attracted to such a demon it is likely going to get you no matter which field you choose. If anything, being a physician will give you better access.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Substance abuse is something seen pretty frequently among physicians as well. If you are attracted to such a demon it is likely going to get you no matter which field you choose. If anything, being a physician will give you better access.

Hey man, I work hard. I deserve that fentanyl.

 

[BlackSails]

My father and I worked it out that if you drop out of HS at 16 to become an apprentice electrician, and then move up to owning your own subcontracting company, the doctor does end up winning, but only at around 45, and we did not include the electrician investing his earnings.

 

[Law2Doc]

and we did not include the electrician investing his earnings.

Then you left out a huge component - the big ticket item. The concept of the "time value of money" is the tenet the entire finance industry is based upon -- That getting $1 today is always worth more than getting $1 a year from now. This is the same reason annuities work -- if you win the lottery they are equally happy to give you eg. around $300k today or $1 million over X years -- it is the exact SAME amount of money to them.

 

[deleted36260]

This post is kind of contradictory, since the ACLU is not a "fundamentally moral" organization.

hahaha, this thread is being baited so hard in so many directions...

 

[mattypez]

My father and I worked it out that if you drop out of HS at 16 to become an apprentice electrician, and then move up to owning your own subcontracting company, the doctor does end up winning, but only at around 45, and we did not include the electrician investing his earnings.

You are assuming the doctors took out full loans for med school. There is a good amount of med students with wealthy parents paying some if not all of their tuition.

 

[Law2Doc]

You are assuming the doctors took out full loans for med school. There is a good amount of med students with wealthy parents paying some if not all of their tuition.

It's actually a pretty small percentage who get away with no loans. The average debt load is quite high.

 

[kronickm]

I knew a guy who got his Phd in Philosophy, didn't like the atmosphere at the university he was working at, or the atmosphere of the academia in and around philosophy, so he decided to become a truck driver. He is very happy.

Happiness is far more important then money ever will be.

 

[Jolie South]

I knew a guy who got his Phd in Philosophy, didn't like the atmosphere at the university he was working at, or the atmosphere of the academia in and around philosophy, so he decided to become a truck driver. He is very happy.

Happiness is far more important then money ever will be.

I agree. Doing something that isn't satisfying is going to negatively affect you in all aspects of your life. I worked for a horrible boss doing something where I felt useless and I dreaded going to work everyday, was generally unhappy, and constantly felt like I had this serious weight on me. I only did it for one year and I feel like it aged me.

If you can do something that you love and make enough to live comfortably, that's all that matters. Medicine will definitely afford me that opportunity.

Yes, we work to make money, but working in a profession that is not rewarding to you is not worth the bonus salary. What are you really going to do with all the extra money anyways? If you can support your family, send your kids to college, live in a sufficient house, afford a car, stay in good health, and put a little extra away for retirement, what purpose does the extra wealth serve? How much money do we really need?

 

[bluesTank]

take a look here:

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0313/1.html

and

1. Surgeons: $65.89/hr; $137,050/yr
2. Investment Banker: $64.42/hr; $134,000/yr (entry level)
3. Obstetricians and gynecologists: $64.15/hr; $133,430/yr
4. Anesthesiologists: $63.31/hr; $131,680/yr
5. Internists, general: $61.03/hr; $126,940/yr
6. Actuaries, certified: $57.52/hr; $119,680 (base salary only)
7. Pediatricians, general: $56.03/hr; $116,550/yr
8. Psychiatrists: $54.60/hr; $113,570/yr
9. Family and general practitioners: $52.89/hr; $110,020/yr
10. Dentists: $53.28/hr; $110,820/yr
11. Pharmacists: $53.00/hr; $110,240/yr
12. Chief Executives: $51.77/hr; $107,670/yr
13. Airline pilots, copilots and flight engineers: (N/A); $99,400/yr
14. Podiatrists: $45.43/hr; $94,500/yr
15. Lawyers: $44.19/hr; $91,920/yr
16. Optometrists: $42.35/hr; $88,100/yr
17. Computer and information systems managers: $40.33/hr; $83,890/yr
18. Physicists: $40.26/hr; $83,750/yr
19. Air traffic controllers: $40.07/hr; $83,350/yr
20. Petroleum Engineers: $39.33/hr; $81,800/yr
21. Nuclear Engineers: $38.56/hr; $80,200/yr
22. Judges, magistrate judges, and magistrates: $38.24/hr; $79,540/yr
23. Marketing Managers: $37.70/hr; $78,410/yr

 

[Hyperstudyosis]

Yeah, the above list does seem a little underestimated as far as the surgeon is concerned. I think a surgeon would make at least $200,000 per year and probably more. I'm not planning to be a surgeon, but even if I decided to do internal medicine or general practice, $100,000 per year would be a fortune to me and I'd probably make more like $120,000.

 

[badasshairday]

medicine does pay if you don't graduate with 200k+ in loan debt.

Or if you do derm, opthal, radiology, anestesiology.

 

[JaggerPlate]

That's very iffy. Graduating with good scores at the top 14 law schools (which, most medical applicants would have a shot at with studying LSATs like they do the MCATs), the average associate salary at a large firm is now $160,000. Third year associates make around $180,000. Seventh and eighth year associates make around $225,000 with bonuses up to $100,000. Make partner, and it goes through the roof.

Of course, this assumes the top 14 schools, but when you compare salaries, you have to compare with what is likely to be earned by Medical school graduates if they did not do medicine. In addition, if Surgeons only earned $130k, very very few people would go into it, as with insurance and costs of loans, and the amount of hours worked, it would be impossible to maintain even half a decent life style.

The stats themselves are a little iffy, but the pattern proves the point. These stats (I'm sure) are taking from a huge national average, which factors in all aspects of a stated profession, and usually leaves out the phenoms who graduate from top law schools, make partners etc. If you wanted to factor in people like that as far as law is concerned; you would nd to also factor in doctors who inherit well established practices from parents, or surgeons who open private derm or plastic practices and all make bank. These stats are very broad and general, but once again, prove the point.

 

[rich1234]

The ACLU is an organization that aims at protecting people's rights under the Consitution. As such the "morals" are not really suspect - they generally are not known for acts of conniving, cheating etc. However often the rights they strive to protect are of the dregs of society -- people who debatably don't warrant so much effort. But some do -- and the founders of this nation (not the ACLU) determined long ago that these rights should run to everyone. You can disagree with the cases the ACLU takes and of their stances, but that doesn't make them immoral. Let's not confuse the morals of attorneys with that the clients and causes they serve.

Hmm, Nice try but have you looked at the cases the ACLU has taken within the past years? If you have, then I don't know how/why you could make a claim that there morals are not suspect. They have an obviously bias and far left interest to disintegrate the Constitution and the Judaeo-Christian values that our country was founded upon. With that said, I wasn't talking about the law profession as so much the ACLU, but if you want to talk about the morals of the attorneys that work for ACLU then sure. These people have taken a position of advocation for a ridiculous organization. Just for a little food for thought, Let's go through a few of the facts about the ACLU and I'm stopping at a few, because I could do it all day long.

ACLU was founded by Communist, with communist ideals, communist goals, and they continue to impose a Communist like agenda on America daily. The founder of the ACLU, Roger Baldwin stated clearly…

"My chief aversion is the system of greed, private profit, privilege and violence which makes up the control of the world today, and which has brought it to the tragic crisis of unprecedented hunger and unemployment�Therefore, I am for Socialism, disarmament and ultimately, for the abolishing of the State itself�I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."

​

ACLU does not believe in the Second Amendment.

ACLU POLICY �The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court�s long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment [as set forth in the 1939 case, U.S. v. Miller] that the individual�s right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms.�ACLU Policy #47



The ACLU is anti-Christian. The list is endless on this one. Under the guise of "seperation of Church and State", the ACLU have made a name for theirself on being rabidly anti-Christian. This is one area where they are most hypocritical. They oppose tax exemptions for all churches, but fight for them for Wiccans. They are against Christianity in school, but oddly remain silent as our children are taught to be Muslims. Whether its baby Jesus, ten commandments, or tiny crosses on county seals, the ACLU will be there to secularize America, and rewrite our history.


The ACLU advocate open borders. Not only have the ACLU opposed the Minute Men, a group who are simply exercizing their freedom of speech, protesting and stepping up where the government is failing, but they have helped illegals cross the
border.

The ACLU Opposes National Security. The ACLU have opposed almost every effort in the arena of national security. From the bird flu to bag searches, the ACLU have been against it. No matter what kind of search someone tries to do to protect people, the ACLU have proved they are against them across the board. Its kind of ironic that they don't practice the principles they preach.

​

CITED

"http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005"

 

[parto123]

You are assuming the doctors took out full loans for med school. There is a good amount of med students with wealthy parents paying some if not all of their tuition.

This actually demonstrates a misunderstanding of finance. Whether or not your tuition came from your own bank account, your dad, a lotto ticket or a bank robbery is irrelevant to the question of medical school being financially worthwhile.

Think of it as first receiving the money as a gift and then using this money to pay for tuition.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

omg did something happen to our search function?

oh wait its still there hrmm

 

[inaminute]

That's very iffy. Graduating with good scores at the top 14 law schools (which, most medical applicants would have a shot at with studying LSATs like they do the MCATs), the average associate salary at a large firm is now $160,000. Third year associates make around $180,000. Seventh and eighth year associates make around $225,000 with bonuses up to $100,000. Make partner, and it goes through the roof.

Of course, this assumes the top 14 schools, but when you compare salaries, you have to compare with what is likely to be earned by Medical school graduates if they did not do medicine. In addition, if Surgeons only earned $130k, very very few people would go into it, as with insurance and costs of loans, and the amount of hours worked, it would be impossible to maintain even half a decent life style.

My father graduated from a top tier law school in the mid eighties and has had a steady business related practice at a top firm in a large city (not NYC or Atlanta or DC, but without that cost of living, either) and as a partner in this respected and busy firm he just last year broke $300k in earnings. I looked up his law school's stats and the average first year salary from that school (2004 figures were the most recent available) was $85k. His firm pays first year associates about $110k. By "top firm" you mean one of the mega firms in one of the high-cost-of-living cities, and that's not exactly an honest description of what most lawyers would make even coming out of an excellent school---plus it's misleading because the higher figures are simply inflated to reflect how much it costs the lawyer to live in the city in which that pay is earned and STILL you can look up what a firm like Baker and Mackenzie in NYC pays and it's around $150k---again, for a mega firm with competitive hiring.

 

[limpkitty]

Above posts about lawyers are wrong, I know b/c my brother just got a job offer from a mega firm for 160k/yr once he's done w/ law school. It's really tough to get one of these jobs and most people, from top-tier schools which are the only people even considered, don't get it. He interned there this summer w/ about 30 other law students (all from harvard, yale, etc..) and only about half get hired.

That said, it's still ****ing sweet as hell. They're paying him 30k just to study for the bar exam.

and those numbers above for physicians are definately not correct

 

[Law2Doc]

"http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005"

You may want to start getting your facts from websites without certain skewed agendas before you take everything as gospel - you are buying into a lot of bizarre propoganda, a lot of which is based on a fundamental misunderstanding or disagreement with the US Constitution as it is written and/or has been interpreted by the US Supreme Court. I'm certainly not a fan of every position they take, but arguing that the Constitution provides for this or that right is hardly immoral. The ACLU has its own website which more accurately indicates what its positions are, if you actually want a reality check.

But all that is besides the point -- nothing you have pointed to indicates that the organization is unethical or immoral, just that the organization you linked to does not agree with them (or perhaps some provisions of the Constitution as the Supreme Court has interpreted it). But this discussion is more suitable for another board, not a pre-allo discussion. Let's give it a rest.

 

[rich1234]

You may want to start getting your facts from websites without certain skewed agendas before you take everything as gospel - you are buying into a lot of bizarre propoganda, a lot of which is based on a fundamental misunderstanding or disagreement with the US Constitution as it is written and/or has been interpreted by the US Supreme Court. I'm certainly not a fan of every position they take, but arguing that the Constitution provides for this or that right is hardly immoral. The ACLU has its own website which more accurately indicates what its positions are, if you actually want a reality check.

But all that is besides the point -- nothing you have pointed to indicates that the organization is unethical or immoral, just that the organization you linked to does not agree with them (or perhaps some provisions of the Constitution as the Supreme Court has interpreted it). But this discussion is more suitable for another board, not a pre-allo discussion. Let's give it a rest.

Nah, no propaganda but I'll save it for another time and place

 

[Law2Doc]

Above posts about lawyers are wrong, I know b/c my brother just got a job offer from a mega firm for 160k/yr once he's done w/ law school. It's really tough to get one of these jobs and most people, from top-tier schools which are the only people even considered, don't get it. He interned there this summer w/ about 30 other law students (all from harvard, yale, etc..) and only about half get hired.

That said, it's still ****ing sweet as hell. They're paying him 30k just to study for the bar exam.

and those numbers above for physicians are definately not correct

I think folks get a bit confused by law figures because a head to head comparison makes no sense. The range of starting salary in "law" is huge -- about $18k to $160k + bonus. The average is about $45k. But the numbers in law dwarf those in medicine by a lot. So you actually have to make some adjustments if you want to compare them in a reasonable fashion. If you actually took the same number of people going to allo med school and compared them to the top quarter of law schools (which would be close to the same number of people), you would find the average in law is going to be much closer to the large firm numbers. Sure "It's really tough" to get such jobs, but it's really tough to get into med school too. You need to change the apples and oranges comparison to an apples and apples comparison. The cream rises to the top in every field, including law and medicine. If you are the type who can thrive in one system, you are likely to be able to thrive in the other -- both are service industries. Take it from someone who will have done both when all is said and done. Someone who would do well in medicine would also do well in law, so comparing "averages" is not reasonable.

 

[parto123]

Above posts about lawyers are wrong, I know b/c my brother just got a job offer from a mega firm for 160k/yr once he's done w/ law school. It's really tough to get one of these jobs and most people, from top-tier schools which are the only people even considered, don't get it. He interned there this summer w/ about 30 other law students (all from harvard, yale, etc..) and only about half get hired.

That said, it's still ****ing sweet as hell. They're paying him 30k just to study for the bar exam.

and those numbers above for physicians are definately not correct

LOL. I love how people use their anecdotal evidence to "correct" others. Time to set the record straight. There are dozens of lawschoo/law firm websites that discuss this in detail ad nausiem. I will post a few below.

From the americanlawyer:

"There may not be enough lawyers to feed the hiring appetite. According to our survey of summer associate hires, Am Law 200 firms expect to bring on roughly 10,000 associates next fall. That astonishing number equals about one-quarter of all the students who will graduate from U.S. law schools next year. To put it another way, the top 20 law schools will only produce about 6,500 graduates."

http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1185820712350


For students in top 14 law schools, anyone with a pulse can get a firm that pays market (which currently is 160K+30 in NY, and 145-160+ smaller bonuses in most other states). This is what is referred to as BIGLAW. After this it starts becoming more difficult. From most schools ranked 15-40, you have to be in the top half of your class to get Biglaw. If you fall in the bottom half of the class, you can still can a mid/small firm that pays about 120K.

None of this is an exact science, and there will always be a few law review kids who cant get any jobs and a few guys in the bottom half who do get good offers.


If an applicant can get into a top 25-30 law school he will have a very good chance at making 160+30 and at the very least 120K at midlaw. Also keep in mind that law salaries +bonuses go up about 20-30K a year, so 6th year associates make about 300K.

Here is an article on how first year associate salaries are probably going to 200K+35 bonus.

http://www.abovethelaw.com/2007/08/nyc_to_200k_the_american_lawye.php

Also see www.autoadmit.com

 

[parto123]

Above posts about lawyers are wrong, I know b/c my brother just got a job offer from a mega firm for 160k/yr once he's done w/ law school. It's really tough to get one of these jobs and most people, from top-tier schools which are the only people even considered, don't get it. He interned there this summer w/ about 30 other law students (all from harvard, yale, etc..) and only about half get hired.

That said, it's still ****ing sweet as hell. They're paying him 30k just to study for the bar exam.

and those numbers above for physicians are definately not correct

Also, the bolded language is total BS. I dont know what firm your brother works for but almost all biglaw has 99% offer rates to its summer associates.

Here are some examples:

skadden, had 100% offer rate (89 of 89)http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_results.asp

Cravath had a 100% offer rate: http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_results.asp

Davis Polk had a 100% offer rate (117 of 117) http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_results.asp

 

[Law2Doc]

If you fall in the bottom half of the class, you can still can a mid/small firm that pays about 120K.

While some of what you said in your post is true, the above sentence really isn't. Pretty much no small firms, and very few mid-sized ones outside of Manhattan, are paying starting salaries close to $120k. There is a more sizeable gap between big firm salaries and the next rung than you suggest. Someone starting at a small firm is going to be lucky to get even close to six digits. Which is why the big firms get to work their associates so much harder.

 

[Law2Doc]

Also, the bolded language is total BS. I dont know what firm your brother works for but almost all biglaw has 99% offer rates to its summer associates.

I know of many biglaw places that have, now and then, not asked back a good chunk of summer associates. If someone isn't very good over the summer, they don't get an invite. I have been in discussions where we nixed invites to summer help because they were no help.

There are many firms that fit the "biglaw" bill, so the 3 you list may not be representative. Working as a summer associate is a good way to get into biglaw, but not a guarantee.

 

[parto123]

While some of what you said in your post is true, the above sentence really isn't. Pretty much no small firms, and very few mid-sized ones outside of Manhattan, are paying starting salaries close to $120k. There is a more sizeable gap between big firm salaries and the next rung than you suggest. Someone starting at a small firm is going to be lucky to get even close to six digits. Which is why the big firms get to work their associates so much harder.

There are plenty of firms that are midlaw and pay in the 100-140 range that arent too selective. Frims like olshan and thompson hines. One thing to keep in mind is that the mid/small firms that paid 80-90k 2 years ago, were forced to raise to 120K after the biglaw raise to 160+30.

 

[zippitydoodoc]

If you want money, be a nurse anesthetist. Programs cost about 20K and can often be paid off if you agree to stay in the state. Take two years and start out at 140K. Much better option then business or law where you'll be lucky to start at that and if you do you'll be working 60-100hrs/week and have a big debt. Nurse anesthetists work 36 or so. Best perk: work for yourself, wear scrubs, and know you've helped others. Run your own business and make upwards of 250K. A much better bet than trying to claw your way to the top of a field which involves much a**-kissing and a lot of drudgery. Pretty much the only better option out there is becoming an MD, which is why I'm going for it. But find me an unhappy nurse anesthetist and I'll give you $100.

 

[Law2Doc]

There are plenty of firms that are midlaw and pay in the 100-140 range that arent too selective. Frims like olshan and thompson hines. One thing to keep in mind is that the mid/small firms that paid 80-90k 2 years ago, were forced to raise to 120K after the biglaw raise to 160+30.

I promise you I am at least as up on the industry as you are. You seem awfully focused on what law firms pay. Seems like this premed thread is kind of a waste for you. Nobody that focused on what lawfirm starting salaries are has the right mindset to go into medicine, where you are committing to being poor for the next 7-10 years. You only take that road if you really are jazzed about the physician job.

 

[parto123]

I know of many biglaw places that have, now and then, not asked back a good chunk of summer associates. If someone isn't very good over the summer, they don't get an invite. I have been in discussions where we nixed invites to summer help because they were no help.

There are many firms that fit the "biglaw" bill, so the 3 you list may not be representative. Working as a summer associate is a good way to get into biglaw, but not a guarantee.

NALP releases the figures. Ill try to find them. For amlaw100 firms the offer rate is in the 90%s. It is conventionally wisdom among law students that you need to do something pretty outrageous not to get an offer. Most of the non offers either did something racist, or stupid after getting drunk at a party. Firms are careful not to mess up their offer rates because it will hurt them in the next recruiting season.

 

[Law2Doc]

NALP releases the figures. Ill try to find them. For amlaw100 firms the offer rate is in the 90%s. It is conventionally wisdom among law students that you need to do something pretty outrageous not to get an offer. Most of the non offers either did something racist, or stupid after getting drunk at a party. Firms are careful not to mess up their offer rates because it will hurt them in the next recruiting season.

Some firms compete for certain law schools' students, so they want a good rep with a given school. But the firms' rep with their paying clients is far more important to them, so they need to staff their firm with attorneys who will provide quality work. Thus every firm is going to nix someone who doesn't show promise. I've certainly seen folks nixed for doing nothing related to outrageous behavior, just that they were unimpressive. I've also seen the latter.

But back to my prior comment you ignored which is actually the only thing on topic for pre-allo in this thread of late -- "seems like this premed thread is kind of a waste for you. Nobody that focused on what lawfirm starting salaries currently are has the right mindset to go into medicine, where you are committing to being poor for the next 7-10 years. You only take that road if you really are jazzed about the physician job." So, like -- what exactly are you looking for -- just to stir things up, or do you hope to have an epiphany?

 

[Mayday]

All I can say is - if you don't think $200,000.00 a year is financially worth it, then you're screwed. In all of the jobs I've ever had, the most I've made was 35k a year (I'm non trad - I've been out in the work force a while) to me, that money is MORE than worth it - especially for the opportunity to do something that I will actually ENJOY.

 

[Chuck's Right Foot]

I think the reason there is an underlying fear that breeds threads like this one. Should I become a doctor? Can I become one? Will it be worthwhile? At this point, some start looking for a metric to make it "worthwhile". The easiest metric to manipulate is $$$. However, one could take a Bayesian approach to this and assign monetary values to things such as: quality of life, intellectual challenge, affinity for the work, as well as salary.

I wouldn't scoff at individuals who will continue to make threads like this, I would take their fright to heart and do my own analysis. I was in training to by a psychotherapist and already in school debt. I will be substantially in debt after medical school. However, I will have a career in something that excites me incredibly. Taking the Bayesian approach, I could assign this a value of 100k or more or less, based on my personal feelings. I can than compare the value of staying in the field I was in (using metrics to measure the value of staying). The difference is the expected value of switching, positive means yes switch, negative means, I should stay). A good career counselor/therapist will help you figure out which soft factors have what level of value to you. But you can do this all on your own to help make a decision.

This approach is actually how many career counselors approach career decisions. If anyone is intersted in learning more, feel free to email me. I did train for four years in counseling in therapy 🙂

There is money in medicine, especially if you specialize. However, you have to make a personal decision that will keep you focused on a long and difficult path. I'll be 30 when I start, eight years behind when I wish I had started, but I've committed to the decision.

Good luck to all.

 

[parto123]

Some firms compete for certain law schools' students, so they want a good rep with a given school. But the firms' rep with their paying clients is far more important to them, so they need to staff their firm with attorneys who will provide quality work. Thus every firm is going to nix someone who doesn't show promise. I've certainly seen folks nixed for doing nothing related to outrageous behavior, just that they were unimpressive. I've also seen the latter.

But back to my prior comment you ignored which is actually the only thing on topic for pre-allo in this thread of late -- "seems like this premed thread is kind of a waste for you. Nobody that focused on what lawfirm starting salaries currently are has the right mindset to go into medicine, where you are committing to being poor for the next 7-10 years. You only take that road if you really are jazzed about the physician job." So, like -- what exactly are you looking for -- just to stir things up, or do you hope to have an epiphany?

I dont think this thread was a waste for me. It just got sidetracked to a different discussion. Nothing wrong with that.

Your point about summer offers is just silly and not true. It is complete common knowledge that virtually all summers at biglaw get offers. I see youre trying to re-define "bigwlaw" to fit your argument. Using any accepted measure of "biglaw" (vault100, firms that pay market, etc.) the offer rate is in the 90s%. It is very very rare for a biglawfirm to nix someone for not showing promise. Very few get no offers, and the ones who do, usually did something very stupid. Give me some names of biglaw firms that you think will prove your point and we can look them up. I randomly looked at about a dozen or so firms and they all give 95%+ offers.

 

[Law2Doc]

I dont think this thread was a waste for me. It just got sidetracked to a different discussion. Nothing wrong with that.

I think the disconnect for me and perhaps others is that you are focusing on things like lawfirm, banker salaries, and my response is "so what" unless you want to be a lawyer or banker. What has that to do with wanting to be a doctor? And if you don't want to be a doctor apart from getting a comparable rate of return, then you don't want to be a doctor. It's a path that is long and intense and so basically by design weeds out the folks that don't really want to be there.

As for the law firm stuff, you can believe what you want -- I was just offering a perspective from someone who has actually been in the industry. But kudos if you know better, I have no problem with that.

 

[parto123]

I think the disconnect for me and perhaps others is that you are focusing on things like lawfirm, banker salaries, and my response is "so what" unless you want to be a lawyer or banker. What has that to do with wanting to be a doctor? And if you don't want to be a doctor apart from getting a comparable rate of return, then you don't want to be a doctor. It's a path that is long and intense and so basically by design weeds out the folks that don't really want to be there.

As for the law firm stuff, you can believe what you want -- I was just offering a perspective from someone who has actually been in the industry. But kudos if you know better, I have no problem with that.

Well, this thread wasnt a general question of "is it worthwhile to be a doctor" it was "is it financially worthwhile." My question assumed that the person already wanted to be a doctor, and was going to be a doctor. For example, many PHD students will tell you that they love what they do, and they are glad they are pursuing it, but their one hang-up is that it isnt financially worthwhile. Architect is another good example of people who will tell you they love their profession, but its not financially worthwhile.

So i know med students love medicine, but im asking them "do you feel it financially worthwhile." To illustrate my point I gave the example of when you take 8-11 years of lost income and loans into consideration MDs probably make less than accountants. Im not suggesting that people who have a passion shouldnt go to med school. My question is more of a do you feel jibbed?


About the law point. This isnt my anecdotal evidence from cousin jed. This is from the NYLJ, NALP, abovethelaw, infirmation.com and autoadmit. Its not even a disputed issue. It would be like if a doctor were to come on this site and assure everyone that the step 1 isnt taken into consideration for selecting residents. If you put your post on a law website it would get a similar reaction.

 

[Law2Doc]

About the law point. This isnt my anecdotal evidence from cousin jed. This is from the NYLJ, NALP, abovethelaw, infirmation.com and autoadmit. Its not even a disputed issue. It would be like if a doctor were to come on this site and assure everyone that the step 1 isnt taken into consideration for selecting residents. If you put your post on a law website it would get a similar reaction.

Your comment that folks who go to work at small firms frequently start at $120k isn't from those organizational sites. You found two law firms out of thousands and tried to make the exception the rule.

 

[Law2Doc]

Well, this thread wasnt a general question of "is it worthwhile to be a doctor" it was "is it financially worthwhile." My question assumed that the person already wanted to be a doctor, and was going to be a doctor. For example, many PHD students will tell you that they love what they do, and they are glad they are pursuing it, but their one hang-up is that it isnt financially worthwhile. Architect is another good example of people who will tell you they love their profession, but its not financially worthwhile.

But I still think that when you are talking about a career you are going to be doing for 40 or so years, it isn't particularly fruitful to focus on what other industries earn. You either want this or you don't. If money is what you are after, there are other routes out there for a smart person. If being a doctor is what you are after, med school is the only game in town and so no point trying to see if it's worth it. If it's what you want it's going to have to be good enough.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'd rather sell my soul to satan for all eternity/be poor for 100 years than become a lawyer 😀😀😀!! (So I guess that's my outlook on this argument/explanation for MD)

 

[parto123]

But I still think that when you are talking about a career you are going to be doing for 40 or so years, it isn't particularly fruitful to focus on what other industries earn. You either want this or you don't. If money is what you are after, there are other routes out there for a smart person. If being a doctor is what you are after, med school is the only game in town and so no point trying to see if it's worth it. If it's what you want it's going to have to be good enough.

I agree with everything you just said.

As for the firms that pay 120K. Just check out vaults "best of the rest" , many of those are midlaw firms that pay in the 120000-140000 range (right now im speaking about ny). And there are many midlaw firms besides just those. May I ask what firm/s you used to work for, or at least the vault range of the firm.

 

[Laurenb]

The ACLU is an organization that aims at protecting people's rights under the Consitution. As such the "morals" are not really suspect - they generally are not known for acts of conniving, cheating etc. However often the rights they strive to protect are of the dregs of society -- people who debatably don't warrant so much effort. But some do -- and the founders of this nation (not the ACLU) determined long ago that these rights should run to everyone. You can disagree with the cases the ACLU takes and of their stances, but that doesn't make them immoral. Let's not confuse the morals of attorneys with that the clients and causes they serve.

You mean like the rights of NAMBLA??
Come on the ACLU is so backwards it doesn't know which way is up!

 

[inaminute]

I agree with everything you just said.

As for the firms that pay 120K. Just check out vaults "best of the rest" , many of those are midlaw firms that pay in the 120000-140000 range (right now im speaking about ny). And there are many midlaw firms besides just those. May I ask what firm/s you used to work for, or at least the vault range of the firm.

tell us how many first year associates FROM THE ENTIRE COUNTRY are getting those salaries---go ahead, seriously

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

It seems like their is a thread like this every week. Well about 17,370 students get accepted into med school every year and about 4000-6000 students get in to the top 20 law schools. It is more competative than the avg med school.

 

[Hurricane95]

Hey guys, I have an idea...lets all, like, become i-bankers! Then we'll all be millionaires!! Awesome!! Because EVERYONE who enters the "business world" banks sooo dirty...hmmm....except the grand majority of business grads who struggle to make $40k out of college, and never make it past $60k in their lifetime.

In all seriousness, threads like this make me nauseous. Who cares if medicine is "financially worthwhile"? Some people enjoy other aspects of medicine besides the paycheck. Aside from the satisfaction of practicing and helping others in ways no one else can, docs still make a highly respectable salary. So you're not making millions...oooohhh....that's so terrible. The business people who make millions are the small minority at the top of the food chain, not the majority as some people love to believe.

So if money is driving your cogs, then dive head first into business and pray to God/Darwin that you'll rise to the top (statistically small chance) and get paid millions to do paperwork all day. Or go into medicine to help people, be highly satisfied with what you do, and be GUARANTEED a very comfortable living (unless $200k is too little for you).

 

[deleted77919]

There's nothing wrong with these numbers . . . they figured an hourly rate and then for the annual salary they normalized the figures to a 40 hour work week 52 weeks a year. Are those figures reasonable for hours worked per week? Of course not, but it is designed to let you compare per hour compensation and see what you would have at the end of the year if you worked a "normal" work week.

I.e if you want to work an 80 hour work week then just double all of the annual figures.

take a look here:

http://www.bizjournals.com/specials/2006/0313/1.html

and

1. Surgeons: $65.89/hr; $137,050/yr
2. Investment Banker: $64.42/hr; $134,000/yr (entry level)
3. Obstetricians and gynecologists: $64.15/hr; $133,430/yr
4. Anesthesiologists: $63.31/hr; $131,680/yr
5. Internists, general: $61.03/hr; $126,940/yr
6. Actuaries, certified: $57.52/hr; $119,680 (base salary only)
7. Pediatricians, general: $56.03/hr; $116,550/yr
8. Psychiatrists: $54.60/hr; $113,570/yr
9. Family and general practitioners: $52.89/hr; $110,020/yr
10. Dentists: $53.28/hr; $110,820/yr
11. Pharmacists: $53.00/hr; $110,240/yr
12. Chief Executives: $51.77/hr; $107,670/yr
13. Airline pilots, copilots and flight engineers: (N/A); $99,400/yr
14. Podiatrists: $45.43/hr; $94,500/yr
15. Lawyers: $44.19/hr; $91,920/yr
16. Optometrists: $42.35/hr; $88,100/yr
17. Computer and information systems managers: $40.33/hr; $83,890/yr
18. Physicists: $40.26/hr; $83,750/yr
19. Air traffic controllers: $40.07/hr; $83,350/yr
20. Petroleum Engineers: $39.33/hr; $81,800/yr
21. Nuclear Engineers: $38.56/hr; $80,200/yr
22. Judges, magistrate judges, and magistrates: $38.24/hr; $79,540/yr
23. Marketing Managers: $37.70/hr; $78,410/yr

 

[zippitydoodoc]

Conspicuously absent to the list and the discussion: the niche of the happiest workers I've ever encountered--nursing anesthesia. Again, I expect little response from anyone because the word "nurse" would be in your job title and we're a big group of hoity-toity premeds... but for those still undecided, do your homework. regardless of admission to med-school, I very well might go that route. highly specialized nurses will be in increasing demand and as the health industry gets squeezed, the difference between a nurse anesthetist and an anesthesiologist will continue to diminish.

 

[badasshairday]

To the guy talking about nurse anesthesiologists, wtf, I wanted to specialize in anesthesiology. So you are saying I should just go the nursing route instead of all this med school to become one?

 

[usermike8500]

In the last issue of Annals of Emergency Medicine I saw a job advertised at $350k/year.

I'm afraid these days of quarter million a year and up salaries might soon be coming to a close when healthcare gets nationalized. Politicians will have no problem cutting doctors' salaries. How will the doctors defend themselves? Go on strike like normal government employees? If doctors went on strike, people would die. That wouldn't be a possibility. In the end, medicine will become a career reserved only for the truly passionate, who will lead lives of perpetual self-sacrifice in order to practice their art. ...very similar to the life of Buddhist monk in a way. Complete disregard for materialism and a return to a simple existance... albeit one that involves solving incredibly complex problems and saving lives.

 

[DeadCactus]

An MD comes with two financial benefits: security and flexibility.

Yes, there are plenty of other careers that make close to or more money than a doctor. Even bad doctors make good money as long as they dont jeopardize their ability to get a job.

The bigger benefit is flexibility however. Sure investment bankers and engineers and lawyers CAN make the big bucks. An MD however can move into backwoods Montana or Missouri and still pull in 6 figures a year. How many other proffesions can live anywhere they want and still make good money? How many professions can pick up an extra 12 hour shift som ewhere and add 50k a year to their income if they want it?

 

[PreMedDocMD]

My point is that MD doesnt seem attractive if dollar signs are ANY part of your goals.

Thats not true at all. Medicine is a big sacrific. I think it is perfectly OK to want a high paying job after 4 years of med school and a minimum of 3 years residency. I agree with you that if its your ONLY reason, don't do it. But, I think its perfectly OK to go into medicine for the love of medicine, but still expect a big salary.