MD graduate, post residency MBA programs??

[deleted813736]

Hello everyone, I am completing my intern year in ER and have begun to think ahead in terms of wanting to acquire an MBA after completing residency. I plan on taking the GMAT this year but I am very unsure which programs would allow a BS/MD with limited/no work experience in the business field admission ?? Would anyone be able to provide any insite on this as to where to look? I am not wanting to do an online degree unless reputable.

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[Angry Birds]

Hello everyone, I am completing my intern year in ER and have begun to think ahead in terms of wanting to acquire an MBA after completing residency. I plan on taking the GMAT this year but I am very unsure which programs would allow a BS/MD with limited/no work experience in the business field admission ?? Would anyone be able to provide any insite on this as to where to look? I am not wanting to do an online degree unless reputable.

As long as you craft your story in a convincing way, you shouldn't have a problem. And I would only consider the top MBA programs, like HBS, Wharton, etc.

I don't have an MBA but I got (and am getting) an equally competitive degree, and am at an Ivy League school. You need to change your attitude around. Don't consider yourself a lowly candidate who is even using the words "online degree." You are an MD. You are a catch. Act like it.

Your residency is work experience. You will almost certainly need to invest time in making yourself an attractive candidate. I'm not saying that you can just waltz into the MBA without doing any legwork. It took me a lot of effort and hard work to get into the program I did... But, at the end of the day, I asked myself: why would I go down this path unless it was from a top institution? The same thing you should consider: you have an MD and will be an EM trained doctor. Why should you even bother with a lowly MBA program? Only consider the top programs. If one of them ignores you, another will be interested in you... as long as you put in the leg work.

Good luck!

 

[oldtown]

i did a Physicians Executive MBA 4 yrs after finishing residency through Auburn University. It was mostly online, but they did bring us down to campus for 5 sessions (each lasting 4 days), as well as a trip to D.C. For a health policy session and to Europe for a comparative health system trip. The in person component allowed for networking and bonding with classmates like you get in a traditional MBA program, but without having to quit your job or relocate. We were a tight knit group, and I still stay in touch with several of my classmates. No GMAT or business background was required. All classmates are physicians.

There are several other name schools with similar programs - Tennessee, USC, Indiana come to mind. The degree does not carry nearly as much weight as a traditional MBA from a top program. The focus is on healthcare, and it was light on quantitative stuff (finance, logistics). It won't really open doors that wide for a total career change, but it will open doors for healthcare related business side jobs (Hospital CMO, ED medical director, CMG regional director, insurance company jobs, etc.).

Overall, I'm glad I did it. It was eye opening, I learned a lot, met a lot of great people, and no one can ever take it away from me. It's just important to realize that you're not going to all of a sudden become a great candidate for some high finance or consulting job just because you have it.

 

[enalli]

I don't have an MBA but I got (and am getting) an equally competitive degree, and am at an Ivy League school.

What degree are you working on and how do you plan on using it?

 

[Angry Birds]

What degree are you working on and how do you plan on using it?

PhD. I hope to go into academia, but in this new field, not medicine... although I plan on doing interdisciplinary work which crosses over into medicine.

 

[bravotwozero]

i did a Physicians Executive MBA 4 yrs after finishing residency through Auburn University. It was mostly online, but they did bring us down to campus for 5 sessions (each lasting 4 days), as well as a trip to D.C. For a health policy session and to Europe for a comparative health system trip. The in person component allowed for networking and bonding with classmates like you get in a traditional MBA program, but without having to quit your job or relocate. We were a tight knit group, and I still stay in touch with several of my classmates. No GMAT or business background was required. All classmates are physicians.

There are several other name schools with similar programs - Tennessee, USC, Indiana come to mind. The degree does not carry nearly as much weight as a traditional MBA from a top program. The focus is on healthcare, and it was light on quantitative stuff (finance, logistics). It won't really open doors that wide for a total career change, but it will open doors for healthcare related business side jobs (Hospital CMO, ED medical director, CMG regional director, insurance company jobs, etc.).

Overall, I'm glad I did it. It was eye opening, I learned a lot, met a lot of great people, and no one can ever take it away from me. It's just important to realize that you're not going to all of a sudden become a great candidate for some high finance or consulting job just because you have it.

But have you been able to monetize your MBA in any way?


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[oldtown]

But have you been able to monetize your MBA in any way?


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I'm an ED medical director now, making about $150K / year more than I did as a pit doc. That carries its own set of headaches, and you certainly work for the money, albeit in a different way, but the MBA has paid for itself several times over.

 

[enalli]

PhD. I hope to go into academia, but in this new field, not medicine... although I plan on doing interdisciplinary work which crosses over into medicine.

Whoa, that's really interesting. Are you still able to work clinically with a PhD workload?

 

[Status Sciaticus]

I'm an ED medical director now, making about $150K / year more than I did as a pit doc. That carries its own set of headaches, and you certainly work for the money, albeit in a different way, but the MBA has paid for itself several times over.

How much work has been added on as an EDMD for that 150K in terms of hours per month? Trying to weigh the work done as a director vs just doing more hours as locums to generate more income.

 

[oldtown]

How much work has been added on as an EDMD for that 150K in terms of hours per month? Trying to weigh the work done as a director vs just doing more hours as locums to generate more income.

A little hard to say. I worked about 120 hrs/month as a pit doc, now I usually do about 90 hrs/month. As far as admin time, I'd say 20-25 hrs of actual work per week. That includes meetings, working on stuff from home, and just going Into the office to put in "face time". The time I am "thinking about work" is pretty much most waking hours. I have 3 weekends off /month instead of 2 now, but a lot fewer days off overall- and I'm never truly off like I used to be. Always checking emails, putting out fires large and small, etc.

My group treats it's medical directors pretty well compared to a lot of groups from a compensation standpoint. Some of our medical directors at high volume / good payer mix sites have admin stipends upwards of $25-30 k / month, with the low end for smaller sites being around $6-8k. But, a lot is expected in return.

 

[goodoldalky]

You won’t need the GMAT for an executive MBA.

If you want to completely change careers, you should do a traditional MBA. I wouldn’t recommend that because you’ll probably make 2-3x more as a doc as compared to your average job post MBA. However you may have other non finance motivations that outweigh that.

An executive MBA program will help you climb the ladder in healthcare or allow you to pivot to something related like insurance, biomed, pharma, etc.

I don’t know much about online programs but the in person networking is important so that would be a con.

 

[Angry Birds]

Whoa, that's really interesting. Are you still able to work clinically with a PhD workload?

I've dropped down to part-time per diem work at a slow rural hospital.

 

[Birdstrike]

Hello everyone, I am completing my intern year in ER and have begun to think ahead in terms of wanting to acquire an MBA after completing residency. I plan on taking the GMAT this year but I am very unsure which programs would allow a BS/MD with limited/no work experience in the business field admission ?? Would anyone be able to provide any insite on this as to where to look? I am not wanting to do an online degree unless reputable.

Residency = work. By the time you're done with your residency, keep in mind that you've done four years of medical school which includes clinicals, ie, practical real-life experience, and 3 years of very intense work in residency. That's a hell of a pre-MBA resume compared to your average Bachelor in Business Admin or Finance degree. A friend of mine from residency, did an MBA post residency and now teaches at a business school as well as being in several leadership positions with his group, his hospital and EMS. It's opened significant doors for him.

In fact, I briefly considered getting an MBA recently, as a spring board to someday become the CEO of my group, but I decided that the position I have now, is much better than being the CEO of my group, or any business, for that matter. At the point I'm at in my career, I wouldn't gain any value for the effort, but it certainly could work for other people, especially earlier in their career, like you are. As a residency trained MD, I don't think you'd have any problem at all, getting admission to a very good business program. You would bring a very unique perspective to such a degree, especially since healthcare is such big business, in today's world.

 

[iish]

You won’t need the GMAT for an executive MBA.

If you want to completely change careers, you should do a traditional MBA. I wouldn’t recommend that because you’ll probably make 2-3x more as a doc as compared to your average job post MBA. However you may have other non finance motivations that outweigh that.

An executive MBA program will help you climb the ladder in healthcare or allow you to pivot to something related like insurance, biomed, pharma, etc.

I don’t know much about online programs but the in person networking is important so that would be a con.

I disagree with you in that most post-MBA jobs make much less than EM salaries. There are definitely post-MBA jobs that pay as much if not more and the salary potential 8-10 years down the road is 1-2 orders of magnitude more if you play your cards right and keep your eye on the ball. You just have to go down the right path and be strategic about your choices.

 

[Money Moniker]

I disagree with you in that most post-MBA jobs make much less than EM salaries. There are definitely post-MBA jobs that pay as much if not more and the salary potential 8-10 years down the road is 1-2 orders of magnitude more if you play your cards right and keep your eye on the ball. You just have to go down the right path and be strategic about your choices.

Are those jobs available to physicians though? Obviously if you've worked in a front office capacity in a bulge bracket bank right out of undergrad and go to HBS after your 2 years as an analyst are over the PE or hedge fund job you get after the MBA will blow any medical job out of the water, but that is an entirely different ball game.

I can even envision grads from top 10 med schools being able to parlay the prestige of their medical degrees into venture capital roles after an MBA. But what if you're a run of the mill physician who went to a run of the mill medical school? Can you really land an "elite" job after doing the MBA, and what would "going down the right path and being strategic" entail in this situation? I'm genuinely curious about opportunities outside of medicine so if you have some insight I'd be very interested to hear, as I'm sure would many others.

 

[Apollyon]

Well, Duke has an MD/MBA combined program, and I think the Fuqua School of Business is pretty high up there, too. That gets people in right from the ground floor.

 

[iish]

Are those jobs available to physicians though? Obviously if you've worked in a front office capacity in a bulge bracket bank right out of undergrad and go to HBS after your 2 years as an analyst are over the PE or hedge fund job you get after the MBA will blow any medical job out of the water, but that is an entirely different ball game.

I can even envision grads from top 10 med schools being able to parlay the prestige of their medical degrees into venture capital roles after an MBA. But what if you're a run of the mill physician who went to a run of the mill medical school? Can you really land an "elite" job after doing the MBA, and what would "going down the right path and being strategic" entail in this situation? I'm genuinely curious about opportunities outside of medicine so if you have some insight I'd be very interested to hear, as I'm sure would many others.

I think most doctors underestimate their ability to get into a top 7 business school. Most just don't apply. People at run of the mill medical schools are probably more than qualified to get into a solid business school. The standards are just different.

If you are a doctor and get into one of the top 7-10 business schools, there is a path to the PE hedge fund jobs. There is a large demand for doctors in that world. While still competitive, it's very possible.

So to answer your questions, yes those "elite" jobs are well within reach of most doctors that are willing to put in the effort and start from the bottom again.

 

[slurpy15]

If you want to do private equity, yes, you need a decent business school. If you want to do hospital admin, go cheap.

Curious- how far along in your career can you be before it's too late to leap to PE/hedge funds? Curious as to what folks thing.

 

[gutonc]

If you want to do private equity, yes, you need a decent business school. If you want to do hospital admin, go cheap.

Curious- how far along in your career can you be before it's too late to leap to PE/hedge funds? Curious as to what folks thing.

Since the hours worked in post-MBA jobs in these fields make Gen Surg hours in the 90s seem benign, probably before you’re no longer able to work 120 hours a week.

 

[Apollyon]

Since the hours worked in post-MBA jobs in these fields make Gen Surg hours in the 90s seem benign, probably before you’re no longer able to work 120 hours a week.

Intellectual question - what do these hedge fund types do in those 120 hours? As @Birdstrike says, 1 hr in the ED equals 1.5 hours elsewhere. Is it like that, where you don't even have time to pee or eat, possibly harried, or is it like surgery, where you have time to have breakfast in the cafeteria, but, when the heat is on, it's scorching? It is it like office hours, for you or IM or peds, where it can be busy, busy, busy, but you affirmatively have a lunch hour, or, when you're done, you're done?

I would guess these MBA types, just like people that go to Duke, are self selecting. Few people at Duke think that it is malignant - they tolerate/welcome being ground down to a nub. Likewise, these younger, brainy B-school people just see it as it is what it is. Is that it?

 

[iish]

While there's no hard and fast age limit, it's a question of how old is too old for you to be back at the bottom of the totem pole. To go to PE, you most likely have to do investment banking first, and most of these firms will be fine if you are hovering around 30. If you are later career switcher to a hedge fund, there is no real limit. I've seen people make that transition into their 40s.

To answer a few questions, people at hedge funds are rarely working 100+ hours a week. This is mostly seen in investment banking. It's definitely not as intense as the ED though pretty everything you do is on a tight deadline with little regard for what time of day the work lands on your desk. The hours are a combination of the 24/7 business cycle and the sheer volume of work. There's time to go to the bathroom and eat. I'm pretty sure the ED is the only place that subjects us to that kind of work environment.