MD/MBA, interviewing, and crushing the capital markets

[attaboybambeeks]

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Do you think interviewers look down upon applicants who mention an interest in pursuing at dual degree with an MBA? I believe they may be concerned that the applicant is 'in it for the money'. Thoughts?

I would post this on the MD/MBA thread but i wanted to hear from people who are actively applying. Do any of you have friends that are pursuing this dual degree? What are they hoping to do with it? What do you hope to do with it (for those considering)?
Lastly, after a lot of introspection, im confident that I'm entering medicine for the "right reasons" (which i wont get into, but i think you know what i mean)...but do any of you have a similar penchant for crushing the capital markets? Possibly copping an SLR one day?

 

[DrBowtie]

There is a discussion somewhere in the MD/MBA forums on how to approach the topic during an interview.

Since most programs you apply for the MBA part during your 1st or 2nd year, it really shouldn't be the majority of your interview to get into the med school IMO.

 

[ASDIC]

many people interested in the md/mba program have this misconception that the adcom would frown over students interested in such a program.

however, they know that today's medicine requires some knowledge of business to provide quality and cost-effective medical care. if you can explain how you as a md/mba will provide such care, you will def impress the interviewer. i am currently in the md/mba program and I very well explained my reasons for the program during my interview.

good luck

 

[Shredder]

hey im going through this right now, what a coincidence that you bring it up. anyway ive got interviews at some big schools coming up who i feel mightve not ordinarily been impressed with my app but for my mention of md/mba. ive thought about this a lot and wrung my hands over it. i understand your concerns, its too bad we have to have them. get in touch with me sometime, or visit the md/mba forum as it needs more traffic. i do plan on bringing up md/mba in my interviews, ill let you know how things go. definitely do not cross the threshold of talking too much about biz or youre finished though, i think there is a consensus on that, much like md/phd candidates and research.

you may have to gauge who youre talking to--ive heard from friends that theyve had interviewers who are all for it when it was tentatively mentioned. i feel ive encountered some resistance in my two interviews so far, maybe bc i wasnt able to articulate all that well why i wanted to do it. still, its too bad an aspiring md/mba has to be on the defensive with some interviewers. i mean, if md/mba was bad then why the hell would the dual degree program exist.

an SLR--you going into photography? anyway now that youve mentioned an interest in biz im going to hound you to follow through with it, like i do with many others around here 😀 i guess you could say, "youre hired!"

btw bretts right that you dont have to apply until later, so if you feel it will hurt you its possible to not mention it at all. however i feel like it sets me apart from the cookie cutter premeds so ive decided to broach the topic. right off the bat its "something unique you bring to the class" and such

 

[attaboybambeeks]

hey im going through this right now, what a coincidence that you bring it up. anyway ive got interviews at some big schools coming up who i feel mightve not ordinarily been impressed with my app but for my mention of md/mba. ive thought about this a lot and wrung my hands over it. i understand your concerns, its too bad we have to have them. get in touch with me sometime, or visit the md/mba forum as it needs more traffic. i do plan on bringing up md/mba in my interviews, ill let you know how things go. definitely do not cross the threshold of talking too much about biz or youre finished though, i think there is a consensus on that, much like md/phd candidates and research.

you may have to gauge who youre talking to--ive heard from friends that theyve had interviewers who are all for it when it was tentatively mentioned. i feel ive encountered some resistance in my two interviews so far, maybe bc i wasnt able to articulate all that well why i wanted to do it. still, its too bad an aspiring md/mba has to be on the defensive with some interviewers. i mean, if md/mba was bad then why the hell would the dual degree program exist.

an SLR--you going into photography? anyway now that youve mentioned an interest in biz im going to hound you to follow through with it, like i do with many others around here 😀 i guess you could say, "youre hired!"

btw bretts right that you dont have to apply until later, so if you feel it will hurt you its possible to not mention it at all. however i feel like it sets me apart from the cookie cutter premeds so ive decided to broach the topic. right off the bat its "something unique you bring to the class" and such

shredder. that is a very interesting approach. I actually felt as though I had to conceal this aspect of my application. And after giving it a second though, i feel i would have a better chance at those schools who do have dual degree options had i fleshed out my interest. That being said, those schools that are intent on training physicians to become clinicians and not 'losing' their students to other related branches in health care, would look down upon my mention of this. I guess I tried to be balanced to improve my chances. Perhaps I was wrong in doing this. What mdmba programs have you interviewed at? Mind my asking you a general range of your stats? Thanks...we'll keep in touch.

 

[Shredder]

shredder. that is a very interesting approach. I actually felt as though I had to conceal this aspect of my application. And after giving it a second though, i feel i would have a better chance at those schools who do have dual degree options had i fleshed out my interest. That being said, those schools that are intent on training physicians to become clinicians and not 'losing' their students to other related branches in health care, would look down upon my mention of this. I guess I tried to be balanced to improve my chances. Perhaps I was wrong in doing this. What mdmba programs have you interviewed at? Mind my asking you a general range of your stats? Thanks...we'll keep in touch.

3.8/37, ECs and letters are nothing special. i did put together my app and essays nicely though. im thinking if mdmba is brought up ill go with the safe bet of "health policy, medicare, medicaid, and working to solve the healthcare crisis" and along those lines. probably no mention of things like venture capital, investments, or entrepreneurship. which i think btw are totally legitimate, but overly risky without commensurate reward, and thats what making decisions is all about.

i think institutions with top biz schools are more proud and supportive of their mdmba programs than less renowned ones. themightyangus said penn was all for its mdmba program in his interview, it was encouraging to hear. but in my 2 interviews at ohio state and michigan they seemed slightly closed minded about the notion, maybe they are old fashioned docs. ive been reading a lot about the healthcare industry so im prepared to discuss if necessary.

im considering not even practicing medicine, but id never utter this in an interview. instead im going to tell them ill balance my weeks, with 3 days for patient care and 3 days for business aspects. as for being in anything for money, i think thats just fine as long as you remain virtuous, and in fact the pursuit of money has done more for this world than anything else. oh, where have i interviewed--only ohio state (accepted) and michigan (waitlist 😡 )so far, which i dont think suit me too well. coming up really soon columbia, dartmouth and penn which im all thrilled about. rejected from uchicago, waiting on northwestern and cornell. you?

 

[DrBowtie]

Did you go with the no such thing as altruism essay for OSU? How'd that work out?
Did you mention MD/MBA in both interviews thus far?

 

[Shredder]

Did you go with the no such thing as altruism essay for OSU? How'd that work out?
Did you mention MD/MBA in both interviews thus far?

haha no i didnt bust out the invisible hand. i used the dictionary.com definition for altruism, copy pasted straight. i talked about how i tutored for the SAT as a high school job and how it made me feel warm and happy, so i later helped my friend study for retaking the MCAT. this was a stretch as i hardly helped him. none of this from the 2ndary was mentioned in the interview. the guy did ask me why i got a C in US history at community college summer school though, punk...world historys better anyway, empires, wars and all. anyway be ready to explain bad grades or red flags like that, as theres a good chance theyll be brought up. i made the mistake of crossing the biz threshold in that interview at OSU, and the guy cornered me into the why not just MBA area. i wasnt really prepared for it and stammered out some silly answer about lack of satisfaction. but for any dual degree seeker who vocalizes dual interests, the "why not just this" question must have an immediate and smashing answer to quell all suspicions and take the ball back into your court. dual interests are a double edged sword that you can use to slash or be slashed with, i think, so know how to wield it and invincibility might result? maybe im getting carried away, but you get the idea--eloquence helps, but thats a given in any inteview scenario

at michigan i was interviewed by an md/mba student, who seemed like an interviewing n00b. i cant imagine he would speak against me, so it mustve been this lady obgyn who maybe got defensive at the prospect of an almighty md/mba or something, or me speaking too grandiloquently--avoid that, strike a balance between modesty and self promotion. (btw i said one of my qualities is "vision" and she somehow seemed turned off 😕 whatever) sigh, insecure ladies. i suspect many docs realize the importance of business issues in healthcare, however there may also be fogies who are idealistic and in denial, no telling. id be interested in hearing from ppl in the know

 

[youngin]

hey im going through this right now, what a coincidence that you bring it up. anyway ive got interviews at some big schools coming up who i feel mightve not ordinarily been impressed with my app but for my mention of md/mba. ive thought about this a lot and wrung my hands over it. i understand your concerns, its too bad we have to have them. get in touch with me sometime, or visit the md/mba forum as it needs more traffic. i do plan on bringing up md/mba in my interviews, ill let you know how things go. definitely do not cross the threshold of talking too much about biz or youre finished though, i think there is a consensus on that, much like md/phd candidates and research.

you may have to gauge who youre talking to--ive heard from friends that theyve had interviewers who are all for it when it was tentatively mentioned. i feel ive encountered some resistance in my two interviews so far, maybe bc i wasnt able to articulate all that well why i wanted to do it. still, its too bad an aspiring md/mba has to be on the defensive with some interviewers. i mean, if md/mba was bad then why the hell would the dual degree program exist.

an SLR--you going into photography? anyway now that youve mentioned an interest in biz im going to hound you to follow through with it, like i do with many others around here 😀 i guess you could say, "youre hired!"

btw bretts right that you dont have to apply until later, so if you feel it will hurt you its possible to not mention it at all. however i feel like it sets me apart from the cookie cutter premeds so ive decided to broach the topic. right off the bat its "something unique you bring to the class" and such

I'm a little confused about how these programs work. I've check a few out but they all seem like you need to apply after 1-2 years of medical school. Do you know the general acceptance rate or number of people they take as I haven't seen any talk about that.

 

[Shredder]

I'm a little confused about how these programs work. I've check a few out but they all seem like you need to apply after 1-2 years of medical school. Do you know the general acceptance rate or number of people they take as I haven't seen any talk about that.

schools have 3-5 mdmba students per class from what ive seen. you have the option of applying simultaneously at some schools, but i dont see any merit in that. brett compiled a massive listing of mdmba programs in the mdmba forum, many descriptions there. i hear that schools rarely reject med students who want to pursue mba as well. or maybe they never do, depending on how many apply which probably isnt many. hopefully it will stay that way, at least until after were accepted into it!

 

[Jaider]

I've already earned my MBA and am applying to med school now. I was warned by an admissions committee friend that I'd have to be really convincing that I'm a really a doctor-type with a business degree, not a business-type seeking a medical degree. For me, that's very true. I want to be a clinician, I was simply curious about business-- didn't know a thing about it. Now I do, and I wouldn't dream of a career in business. Give me a medical career!

I'll let you know if I encounter any anti-business sentiments during interviews.

 

[attaboybambeeks]

I've already earned my MBA and am applying to med school now. I was warned by an admissions committee friend that I'd have to be really convincing that I'm a really a doctor-type with a business degree, not a business-type seeking a medical degree. For me, that's very true. I want to be a clinician, I was simply curious about business-- didn't know a thing about it. Now I do, and I wouldn't dream of a career in business. Give me a medical career!

I'll let you know if I encounter any anti-business sentiments during interviews.

shredder: my interests, perspectives in applying seem to fall in line with yours. Im quite relieved because i havent found kids with our angle. what do you think of SC's md/mba? btw, SLR as in mercedes benz. just a joke.

 

[DrBowtie]

SC? USC?
If it is USC they have a 26th ranked b-school thus it is a quality program. The only quirk about their program is that it is 5.5 years.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

themightyangus said penn was all for its mdmba program in his interview, it was encouraging to hear.

This is true. But keep in mind, I didnt bring up the MD/MBA program, my interviewer did. I would be somewhat tentative about spending a substantial part of an interviewer talking medbiz, considering applicants don't enroll in the business program until after they complete 3 years of medical school (at Penn at least) and career goals are bound to change in the interim time. Once you get accepted into the med program, then you can focus on b-school. You have to seal the deal first.

 

[Shredder]

This is true. But keep in mind, I didnt bring up the MD/MBA program, my interviewer did. I would be somewhat tentative about spending a substantial part of an interviewer talking medbiz, considering applicants don't enroll in the business program until after they complete 3 years of medical school (at Penn at least) and career goals are bound to change in the interim time. Once you get accepted into the med program, then you can focus on b-school. You have to seal the deal first.

yes thats right you did say that, i had another friend who also said the interviewer was the one who brought it up, and i guess thats significant who brings it up first. its pretty risky devoting lots of time to biz indeed. true, biz doesnt start until well into med school and no med school wants the chance of students dropping out. my plan is to first establish commitment to med, then explore biz as a complement, with everything tying into how it will make me a better doc and able to do more for patients, docs and the healthcare industry.

SLR, yes i see now, i looked it up on dictionary.com and google define and could only find the camera. any docs can afford the SLR, we need to head for Rolls and such .

i applied to USC (SC?) but dont think ill finish the secondary. its not my type of place--really big, public, athletic school, just like UT where i am presently and not having a good time. but the med school and biz school are pretty good, also LA should be a blast. although i think its in a bad part of LA and deals with lots of indigent patients, which is also not my thing. if you interview there you might want to confirm that last fact, as addressing it and warming up to it could give you an edge. i wasnt aware it was 5.5 years--slightly longer but still shorter than doing them separately, and more time to enjoy LA. dartmouth offers a 6 year option, which i wouldnt mind taking up there to get the fuller, less rushed experience

there are some premeds around sdn with biz interests. obviously me and brett, also unfrozencaveman has a biz background, mightyangus some, ctsballer11 maybe, and willhunting who hasnt shown up lately, oh perhaps sandiegosod too but hes not as vocal so not sure. anyone around the md/mba forum to be sure, the mods pretty demure though

 

[attaboybambeeks]

yes thats right you did say that, i had another friend who also said the interviewer was the one who brought it up, and i guess thats significant who brings it up first. its pretty risky devoting lots of time to biz indeed. true, biz doesnt start until well into med school and no med school wants the chance of students dropping out. my plan is to first establish commitment to med, then explore biz as a complement, with everything tying into how it will make me a better doc and able to do more for patients, docs and the healthcare industry.

SLR, yes i see now, i looked it up on dictionary.com and google define and could only find the camera. any docs can afford the SLR, we need to head for Rolls and such .

i applied to USC (SC?) but dont think ill finish the secondary. its not my type of place--really big, public, athletic school, just like UT where i am presently and not having a good time. but the med school and biz school are pretty good, also LA should be a blast. although i think its in a bad part of LA and deals with lots of indigent patients, which is also not my thing. if you interview there you might want to confirm that last fact, as addressing it and warming up to it could give you an edge. i wasnt aware it was 5.5 years--slightly longer but still shorter than doing them separately, and more time to enjoy LA. dartmouth offers a 6 year option, which i wouldnt mind taking up there to get the fuller, less rushed experience

there are some premeds around sdn with biz interests. obviously me and brett, also unfrozencaveman has a biz background, mightyangus some, ctsballer11 maybe, and willhunting who hasnt shown up lately, oh perhaps sandiegosod too but hes not as vocal so not sure. anyone around the md/mba forum to be sure, the mods pretty demure though

yeah, sc= USC. its not public though (fyi shredder). I do wish it were in a better part of LA.

 

[Shredder]

are you a CA resident? wow private, i wouldnt have thought. i still want to avoid the football though. as for the surroundings--columbia is also in a bad part of nyc, but the main city, like LA, is close enough, and a good school makes it bearable

 

[pagemmapants]

Can I just say it's a REAL big shame that it's considered such a bad thing to want to make money nowadays? Particularly in a field that requires this much effort, dedication, and time investment (and, indeed, the initial financial investment as well) . . . Hard work and highly demanded skill should be met with adequate compensation, and it shows good judgement to want to know how to achieve such for oneself (and perhaps others in the same field). Were I an AdCom member, if someone were to bring up the idea that they wanted to get an MD/MBA so that they were effectively prepared to open up a private practice and maximize their profit potential, I'd say "Good for you. You've got a good head on your shoulders." At least someone like that isn't living with their head in the clouds of naive idealism that enshrouds many a socialist pre-med.

Sorry, I'll get off my high horse now.

"I plan to make a pile of money. . . I will have earned it." - Dagny Taggart.

 

[CTSballer11]

Can I just say it's a REAL big shame that it's considered such a bad thing to want to make money nowadays? Particularly in a field that requires this much effort, dedication, and time investment (and, indeed, the initial financial investment as well) . . . Hard work and highly demanded skill should be met with adequate compensation, and it shows good judgement to want to know how to achieve such for oneself (and perhaps others in the same field). Were I an AdCom member, if someone were to bring up the idea that they wanted to get an MD/MBA so that they were effectively prepared to open up a private practice and maximize their profit potential, I'd say "Good for you. You've got a good head on your shoulders." At least someone like that isn't living with their head in the clouds of naive idealism that enshrouds many a socialist pre-med.

Sorry, I'll get off my high horse now.

"I plan to make a pile of money. . . I will have earned it." - Dagny Taggart.

You are so right about this. 20 years ago a doctor did not need much business skills to suceed in a private practice. I think at this point in time; business, running a practice, etc, should be taught in every medical school around the country. I cannot stand it when people tell me that I am greedy becuase I want to be a successful doctor. Maybe in 20-30 years from now people like shredder will make up the ADCOM's in US medical schools. Shredder, how much are you emphasizing ur altruism in the interview process?

 

[DrBowtie]

It has been discussed that the MBA is overkill for establishing a PP and geared more towards larger scale operations (hospital or large group).

I am looking forward to my ugrad course titled "entreprenuership". I'll let you know how much I feel prepared to open up a practice after it.

 

[chef_NU]

LOL I didn't know you guys existed. This is basically all I've been thinking about recently-- how profit-seeking is always equated with lack of altruism. However, I've been concerned more along the lines of how screwed up our healthcare system is with regulation and socialization. When they ask me in interviews what I think of the Canadian health care system and I tell them that it sucks, I don't care if they don't accept me.

Really hasn't the lesson of the last 100 years been that socialization and regulation simply don't work. Sure, altruism is fantastic, but it should never be the result of coercion.

Seileinne I love your Atlas Shrugged quote = )

 

[Shredder]

ctsballer, im deemphasizing it ha. why play to my weaknesses, i dont have a "shred" of overt altruism in my app. altruism is actually economically inefficient, and i swear im going to publish a landmark paper on it one day hopefully. it has to do with the value intended by the giver and the value perceived by the recipient--if they are unequal that is a problem, and they always are. the same applies to surprise gift giving if you follow that notion. if anyone wants food for thought, i thought the first few parts of this paper were superb until it delves into great detail

ive read in places that med has traditionally been considered a selfless profession. maybe we are just all rebels. but rebels for the better? i think selflessness is a failed concept, it never works out as evidenced by problems in the healthcare industry vs the highly efficient, cutthroat tech sector for example.

even if MBA seems overkill for PP, since its only 1 year one might as well go for it. although you do have to apply for it and PP might not fly as a compelling reason for admittance, depending on the school

even though regulation and socialization impede progress, they provide safety, and some people like that, even though it comes with many costs. for example the FDA, www.fdareview.org .

 

[TheMightyAngus]

Just thought I'd add a topic for discussion: physician-owned hospitals.
This article gives a couple reasons why many of those in the medical field have a negative opinion about business. Basically, in the case of physician-owned hospitals, when doctors have an incentive to recommend surgery and other costly procedures and refer patients to hospitals of which they are part-owners, the quality of care suffers and patients get hurt. I think that these kinds of issues come to mind when you talk about MD/MBA programs.

http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=6856&page=1

 

[CTSballer11]

Just thought I'd add a topic for discussion: physician-owned hospitals.
This article gives a couple reasons why many of those in the medical field have a negative opinion about business. Basically, in the case of physician-owned hospitals, when doctors have an incentive to recommend surgery and other costly procedures and refer patients to hospitals of which they are part-owners, the quality of care suffers and patients get hurt. I think that these kinds of issues come to mind when you talk about MD/MBA programs.

http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=6856&page=1

Interesting. There is nothing wrong with doing your job well and wanting to profit from it. I think as you mentioned earlier that the major problem is doctors sacrificing patient care. It is unethical IMO.

 

[Shredder]

Just thought I'd add a topic for discussion: physician-owned hospitals.
This article gives a couple reasons why many of those in the medical field have a negative opinion about business. Basically, in the case of physician-owned hospitals, when doctors have an incentive to recommend surgery and other costly procedures and refer patients to hospitals of which they are part-owners, the quality of care suffers and patients get hurt. I think that these kinds of issues come to mind when you talk about MD/MBA programs.

http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=6856&page=1

incentives, incentives. hmm, does this relate to HMOs at all? i think a good counter is that an md/mba gives you insight on how to fix situations like these. it takes one to know one kind of thing

 

[attaboybambeeks]

Docs work so hard and many md's still can't make that paper thick. There should be some unionization. If docs came together, that would be unbelievable lobbying power to prevent cuts in reimbursement schedules, and push for more tort reform in our legislature. MD's perform the greatest service to this world. They deserve to roll size.

 

[Shredder]

isnt that the AMA? i guess docs would have a hell of a lot of bargaining power if they all banded together, as unlicensed strikebreakers wouldnt be a worry. still, why run to washington for answers, is there a market solution? the only reason i think to run to washington is to tell all of the bureaucrats to back off from healthcare. as for tort reform that is tricky

maybe many md's arent cut out to earn lots. there are bell curves within every profession, and some points must necessarily lie on the lagging end

 

[TheMightyAngus]

incentives, incentives. hmm, does this relate to HMOs at all? i think a good counter is that an md/mba gives you insight on how to fix situations like these. it takes one to know one kind of thing

This situation is different. In HMO's the doctors don't profit from referrals.

 

[Shredder]

at a glance, profiting from referrals seems like it would create enormous conflicts of interest

 

[CTSballer11]

at a glance, profiting from referrals seems like it would create enormous conflicts of interest

I think it is illegal, but it probably happens anyway.