MD/PhD vs. MD: Neurosurgery

[yjkimnada]

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This is my first post on this forum...So if I am doing something wrong please let me know.

I am hoping to head for neurosurgery and many have told me that neurosurgery almosts tops the list of most time-consuming and excruciating careers. As of right now, I am split between a regular MD program versus a lengthy MD/PhD program. Although I always think that doing something beyond basic research is a very good thing, I am not completely sure I will be able to conduct any serious research.

Even if I am unable to do any complex research, will the extra 3-4 years of PhD help me out in some way during residency and after I get secure a job? Or else, I will be wasting 3-4 years in life and I will be extremely uncomfortable with peers already in residency when I am only halfway through school. (I am insanely hyper competitive).

Thanks in advance

 

[Recon_13999]

Or else, I will be wasting 3-4 years in life and I will be extremely uncomfortable with peers already in residency when I am only halfway through school. (I am insanely hyper competitive).

Apply only MD/DO then.

 

[911 Turbo]

lol in on worst thread of the month


or potential troll thread....







OP why do you want to become a neurosurgeon so badly

 

[da8s0859q]

This is my first post on this forum...So if I am doing something wrong please let me know.

I am hoping to head for neurosurgery and many have told me that neurosurgery almosts tops the list of most time-consuming and excruciating careers. As of right now, I am split between a regular MD program versus a lengthy MD/PhD program. Although I always think that doing something beyond basic research is a very good thing, I am not completely sure I will be able to conduct any serious research.

Even if I am unable to do any complex research, will the extra 3-4 years of PhD help me out in some way during residency and after I get secure a job? Or else, I will be wasting 3-4 years in life and I will be extremely uncomfortable with peers already in residency when I am only halfway through school. (I am insanely hyper competitive).

Thanks in advance

In case it's not a troll post:

Tricky question. I personally don't think that a PhD would be that beneficial to you as a neurosurgery resident or as a recently-graduated neurosurgeon trying to find a job, although if your hope is to end up in the ivory towers of academia as some hotshot neurosurgeon, certainly a PhD can help you get there.

The flip side is that there is a higher than usual number of neurosurgery residents who do have a PhD -- about 10%, in fact, going by the last Charting Outcomes report from the NRMP in the 2011 Match (source although there is no reason for you to go through this report just yet). That's higher than most but still means that about 90% of the country's neurosurgeons in residency are without a PhD.

 

[yehhhboiii]

md/phd and a neurosurgery residency
lol enjoy long hours and low pay until you're 40

 

[yjkimnada]

Thanks for the replies.

This is definitely not a troll thread... I have always been interested in becoming a neurosurgeon from a young age and even now anatomy related to the brain and spine is most interesting to me.

@exi, thanks for the detailed reply:
so you are saying that the MD will do almost everything that I would do... So is it possible to do anything scholar-related without a PhD?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

lol in on worst thread of the month


or potential troll thread....







OP why do you want to become a neurosurgeon so badly

Have you not seen Grey's Anatomy? Looks pretty awesome to me.

 

[Lamel]

Why do people on SDN have this weird obsession with assuming most threads are troll threads?

 

[911 Turbo]

Why do people on SDN have this weird obsession with assuming most threads are troll threads?

Because every summer bored premeds come out of the woodworks and troll here.

 

[Frazier]

Why do people on SDN have this weird obsession with assuming most threads are troll threads?

Because we like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they must have been aiming for satire..

 

[Microglia]

md/phd and a neurosurgery residency
lol enjoy long hours and low pay until you're 40

Surprisingly, this. It's not going to help much and will definitely be a waste. IMO, only go MD/PhD if you have an interest in bench research (or some other niche that requires a PhD). No need for a PhD for clinical research, especially not with a long residency like neurosurg. Few neurosurgs run bench labs, and those that do hire someone to essentially run the lab for them. I say MD only, but that's just my opinion.

 

[911 Turbo]

Because we like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they must have been aiming for satire.

Lmao

 

[Cytotoxic]

If you're interested in basic science research, do the MD/PhD. You'll get formal research training, and will be more competitive for neurosurgery match.

Re length of training: neurosurgery is no worse than any other field. If you're interested in academic medicine/research (not necessarily basic), you need to subspecialize and have a narrow clinical focus so you can see fewer patients, have time for research, and still maintain clinical competence. This would put your post-graduate clinical training at a minimum of 5 years (internship + residency + fellowship). Neurosurgery residencies are 6-7 years, but that's including intern year and one or two years of research/fellowship.

Search the UncleHarvey forums (http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/forums/) for more info on MD/PhDs in neurosurgery.

 

[NontradCA]

At a young age? What kid says they want to cut into people's brains?

 

[Ost3oclast]

Because every summer bored premeds come out of the woodworks and troll here.

Don't forget the ones that snap because of the stress of the app season. Those kids troll HARD

 

[pandahunter]

At a young age? What kid says they want to cut into people's brains?

Dexter.


To OP: It doesn't seem that you're cut out for MD/PhD. Don't do it. There's no added prestige or any particular resume boost unless you really want to focus on the research post-med school.

 

[Microglia]

If you're interested in basic science research, do the MD/PhD. You'll get formal research training, and will be more competitive for neurosurgery match.

Re length of training: neurosurgery is no worse than any other field. If you're interested in academic medicine/research (not necessarily basic), you need to subspecialize and have a narrow clinical focus so you can see fewer patients, have time for research, and still maintain clinical competence. This would put your post-graduate clinical training at a minimum of 5 years (internship + residency + fellowship). Neurosurgery residencies are 6-7 years, but that's including intern year and one or two years of research/fellowship.

Search the UncleHarvey forums (http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/forums/) for more info on MD/PhDs in neurosurgery.

The first part of this isn't quite accurate. It should read 'bench research,' not basic science. MD/PhD is primarily focused on bench research that can be *either* basic science or translational (disease pathophysiology focused) and is more often translational than basic. Translational isn't to be confused with clinical research, however, which is at the patient level.

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

I've heard that neurosurgery is one of the worst fields for MD/PhDs. The length of the MD/PhD training combined with the length of the neurosurgery training means that in many cases you'll be too old to even do neurosurgery by the time you're able to practice, or will only have a very short window of time in which to do it.

An MD/PhD won't help your chances at getting a residency, or at least not significantly enough to be worth the hell you'll be putting yourself through. It can actually decrease your chances thanks to the fact that you'll be 3-5 years removed from pre-clinicals when you start your clinical years of med school. Only do an MD/PhD if you want a career that's mostly basic or translational research. If you really only want to practice medicine or do clinical research, do the MD.

 

[Cytotoxic]

The first part of this isn't quite accurate. It should read 'bench research,' not basic science. MD/PhD is primarily focused on bench research that can be *either* basic science or translational (disease pathophysiology focused) and is more often translational than basic. Translational isn't to be confused with clinical research, however, which is at the patient level.

"Translational" is a marketing term for basic science applied to disease. And it doesn't need to be bench research at all (eg computation).

 

[PTPoeny]

Getting an MdPhd will not help you get into most residency programs. Do the combined degree if you want research to be the majority of your career. If you want research to be part of your career but a minor part, I would recommend doing an MD and taking a year off for research and then finding a residency that offers research training. Depending on the funding of your MdPhd program if you hypothetically went through one, you won't be eligible for some of the research focused surgical residencies - which are the only ones that having the PhD will help you get into. There is also a forum dedicated to combined degree programs that had had some excellent discussions of a number if people's experiences and how they view the usefulness of their degrees later on in their careers. You may find some useful info reading through some old threads there.

And yes, watching your classmates graduate, go through residency and in some cases go on to be attendings while you are still in school sucks.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Because we like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they must have been aiming for satire..

Lol. This.

OP, either go NS MD/PhD and or instead go smash your face with a ball-peen hammer 96 hours a week for 11 consecutive years. At the end of one of those you'll pull down $500k/year (working 110hr/wk). Everything else would be the same.

 

[TriagePreMed]

"Translational" is a marketing term for basic science applied to disease. And it doesn't need to be bench research at all (eg computation).

I had never heard a more accurate definition than this +1.

 

[circulus vitios]

Do residency programs even care about bench research? I thought clinical research was way more important.

 

[neusu]

I am hoping to head for neurosurgery and many have told me that neurosurgery almosts tops the list of most time-consuming and excruciating careers. As of right now, I am split between a regular MD program versus a lengthy MD/PhD program. Although I always think that doing something beyond basic research is a very good thing, I am not completely sure I will be able to conduct any serious research.

Even if I am unable to do any complex research, will the extra 3-4 years of PhD help me out in some way during residency and after I get secure a job? Or else, I will be wasting 3-4 years in life and I will be extremely uncomfortable with peers already in residency when I am only halfway through school. (I am insanely hyper competitive).

I'm a neurosurgery resident.

First, let me say that the only reason you should do an MD/PhD is because you are interested in the bench research side of things. It truly would be a waste of 3-4 years of your life, and the opportunity for someone else who is interested to train in your place. Do well in medical school, conduct clinical research, and you'll be just fine. There is a slight increase in competitiveness for neurosurgery by being an MD/PhD. This may, however, be in part because neurosurgery values research and publications. It is often easier to offset a "lower" board score by being an MD/PhD.

Getting an MdPhd will not help you get into most residency programs. Do the combined degree if you want research to be the majority of your career. If you want research to be part of your career but a minor part, I would recommend doing an MD and taking a year off for research and then finding a residency that offers research training. Depending on the funding of your MdPhd program if you hypothetically went through one, you won't be eligible for some of the research focused surgical residencies - which are the only ones that having the PhD will help you get into. There is also a forum dedicated to combined degree programs that had had some excellent discussions of a number if people's experiences and how they view the usefulness of their degrees later on in their careers. You may find some useful info reading through some old threads there.

And yes, watching your classmates graduate, go through residency and in some cases go on to be attendings while you are still in school sucks.

I can't speak for other fields, but having an MD/PhD does help in neurosurgery. Also, not sure what you mean by not being eligible for research focused surgical residencies with an MD/PhD.