MD to OD to OMD

[hopefuloptom]

Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.

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[OphthoQuestions]

Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.

I am pretty sure that the answer would be "No".

Why would you spend 4 years completing an OD degree when you want to become an Ophthalmologist? It is better to spend those 4 years doing Ophthalmology research and building personal connections with faculty at different Ophthalmology departments.

 

[Shnurek]

I'm pretty sure that the answer would be "Yes".(it surely wouldn't be a detriment)

You learn about eyes for 4 years in OD school, way more than in any medical school.

Now as for alternates, doing research for 4 years or doing a PhD. in those 4 years might be also a good idea and certainly should boost your chances of matching ophthalmology. You can do a Vision Science PhD. at many Optometry schools throughout the country if you wish. Or if you are only passionate about the clinical side of things then yes, go to Optometry school.

We have an IMG Ophthalmologist that went straight into 3rd year in our Optometry school. He was a Strabismus surgeon from South Asia. Since the healthcare education system in America is so uppity its hard for people to do what they know excellently somewhere else over here.

Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.

 

[jsh1986]

No.


Find a lab where you can do research. This is what most img do- the ones that I've con across, if they work really hard and make contributions to the field...it generally ends very strongly for them. A few years may be required.

What is salient to the people who hold the keys to a residency spot? They are MDs. They won't care if you are an OD. At the very least as an alternative to research, you could always do an intense general surgery internship at a top place. Not as hard to get as you may think. I've met a few ophtho residents who did this. Best bet probably is to be a research fellow. And Don't go to an optometry school to do the research. Go to an ophthalmology drpt at a top medical center. Publish in ophthalmology, ajo, eye. Be nice snd meet people. Get letters from them. Apply to programs.

Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.

 

[OphthoQuestions]

Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.

Do you really think this is a viable pathway?

#1: no malpractice insurer in their right mind would insure you if you did not have proper training

#2: no insurance plans would list you as a provider if you did not get proper training

#3: no hospital or ASC would give you privileges to operate without residency training.

I'm not sure where you are getting your (mis)-information, but it is quite scary.

-OQ

 

[Visionary]

Do you really think this is a viable pathway?

#1: no malpractice insurer in their right mind would insure you if you did not have proper training

#2: no insurance plans would list you as a provider if you did not get proper training

#3: no hospital or ASC would give you privileges to operate without residency training.

I'm not sure where you are getting your (mis)-information, but it is quite scary.

-OQ

Hey, it's just Shnurek being Shnurek.

 

[speyeder]

Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.

To everyone except Shnurek, the answer is probably 'no'. Getting into ophthalmology as an IMG is difficult. There are things that you can do to improve your odds but going to optometry school is not one of them.

 

[RestoreSight]

Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.

This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.

 

[Eyefixer]

and

I'm pretty sure that the answer would be "Yes".(it surely wouldn't be a detriment)

You learn about eyes for 4 years in OD school, way more than in any medical school.

Now as for alternates, doing research for 4 years or doing a PhD. in those 4 years might be also a good idea and certainly should boost your chances of matching ophthalmology. You can do a Vision Science PhD. at many Optometry schools throughout the country if you wish. Or if you are only passionate about the clinical side of things then yes, go to Optometry school.

We have an IMG Ophthalmologist that went straight into 3rd year in our Optometry school. He was a Strabismus surgeon from South Asia. Since the healthcare education system in America is so uppity its hard for people to do what they know excellently somewhere else over here.

Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.

 

[Visionary]

This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.

Mind powers, my friend. Mind powers.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.

You are quite wrong. I'm a 2nd year FP resident with a full license in my state. As far as the state cares, I'm every bit as much a doctor as the surgeon with 20 years experience.

Now you're obviously right about OR privileges, insurance panels, and the danger that a lack of a full residency poses to patients.... but its quite legal.

 

[Shnurek]

This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.

I'm not wrong or misleading. I was being technical and its the law. Now, would you want to do this is a completely different story.

You are quite wrong. I'm a 2nd year FP resident with a full license in my state. As far as the state cares, I'm every bit as much a doctor as the surgeon with 20 years experience.

Now you're obviously right about OR privileges, insurance panels, and the danger that a lack of a full residency poses to patients.... but its quite legal.

Thank you.

I know of a few MDs that do cosmetic stuff with no residency. Walk the path less traveled?

Also in a few states all you need is 6 months of internship and if I'm not mistaken in a couple you don't need anything.

 

[RestoreSight]

You are quite wrong. I'm a 2nd year FP resident with a full license in my state. As far as the state cares, I'm every bit as much a doctor as the surgeon with 20 years experience.

Now you're obviously right about OR privileges, insurance panels, and the danger that a lack of a full residency poses to patients.... but its quite legal.

Never mentioned anything about licenses or the legality of practicing with only a PGY-1 year completed. It is absolutely correct to state the scope of practice is restricted with only a PGY-1 year completed and it is incorrect to state you have "unlimited" license to practice medicine/surgery as you choose. Many hospitals require you to be minimum board eligible before they will grant you privileges, and you already agree procedural medicine is not an option.

No physician has unlimited access to practice all medicine and surgery beyond their individual training and scope. This is not a discussion of theory, rather one of practical application.

 

[Shnurek]

In most states, simply being a physician will allow you to practice in any area you want in an office setting. Malpractice carriers typically won't insure you unless you're residency trained, and hospital credentials committees won't grant you privileges unless you're residency trained in the specialty in which you practice.

So, if an EM doc wanted to open up a cosmetic clinic doing laser hair removal (know of one doc that did that), hair transplants (yet another who did that), etc., and he or she doesn't want malpractice insurance, then in most states this is permissible.

And yes, I'm talking from a legal standpoint so if you want to do refractions or prescribe oral medications/eye drops you can basically be an OD by using your MD license and open up your own practice even after only PGY-1 and passing all Steps of the USMLE or COMLEX, technically. Don't worry I did my research before picking professions.

Just like people tell me that oooo even though you can do laser surgery as an OD in KY/OK its so hard to buy a laser and get enough patients blah blah blah well the point is that someday I can technically and legally do it.

 

[ophthope]

To the original poster hopefuloptom:

Please take note that the only person in this forum encouraging a path to Ophthalmology through Optometry for an IMG is an Optometrist. I would put much greater value on the advice of the Ophthalmologists, as some of these very people will be the ones choosing who to accept to residency programs. It is going to be very hard in his position to obtain a residency spot. If he is to have any chance he needs to develop close relationships with programs and have a CV that proves his dedication to the field. His best chance of doing this is going to be through research at an academic center - and that's what I would encourage him to pursue if he decides that being an Ophthalmologist in the US is his ultimate goal.

In my brief time here on the SDN Ophthalmology boards I have seen a number of threads hijacked and trainwrecked by an Optometrist's or Optometry student's post. I'm sorry that this appears to have happened with your thread as well. There does not appear to be any safe haven away from this behavior.

 

[Shnurek]

Either way you will get a biased answer because there is a political war going on between opto and ophtho so call up admissions to ophthalmology residency programs and ask them yourself. E.g.: http://www.med.nyu.edu/ophthalmology/residency/contact.html

 

[ophthope]

there is a political war going on between opto and ophtho

I hope they're giving you medals, commander.

 

[Shnurek]

I hope they're giving you medals, commander.

Let's stick to the topic at hand.

 

[tkim]

I'm not wrong or misleading. I was being technical and its the law. Now, would you want to do this is a completely different story.

Thank you.

I know of a few MDs that do cosmetic stuff with no residency. Walk the path less traveled?

Also in a few states all you need is 6 months of internship and if I'm not mistaken in a couple you don't need anything.

You are mistaken - on all counts:

http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html

The minimum training for US grads is 1 year for some states. There is NO state that does not require training before getting a license to practice medicine.

For IMGs, there are only two states that require only one year. The remaining states require a minimum of two or three years of post-graduate training before being granted a license.

 

[myhandsarecold]

i interviewed with a foreigner for a transitional program. she matched into ophto. she graduated 3-4 years ago and did 3-4 years of research in an ophto department. according to her, she did not have very good steps, but was very likeable and her department took her in.

i guess that is what you need to do.

 

[jsh1986]

And knowing when to STFU is apparently only taught in medical school.

It is not a biased answer.

You are just wrong.

hopefuloptom: Take it from the MDs in the room who've watched our IMG colleagues go through this themselves: spend several years as a research postdoc/fellow.

An easy place to start looking is Facebook's ARVO page, ads in ophtho journals, word of mouth, etc.

Either way you will get a biased answer because there is a political war going on between opto and ophtho so call up admissions to ophthalmology residency programs and ask them yourself. E.g.: http://www.med.nyu.edu/ophthalmology/residency/contact.html

 

[Shnurek]

http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html

ah, yes that is the link I was looking for. I got sidetracked by talking about American MDs not IMGs. I guess only Wisconsin and Wyoming allow IMGs to practice medicine after 1 year of post-graduate training.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.

Instead of the OD program, why not sign up for a test prep course for Step 2? Be a lot cheaper.

 

[Visionary]

to the original poster hopefuloptom:

Please take note that the only person in this forum encouraging a path to ophthalmology through optometry for an img is an optometry student.

fyp

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Never mentioned anything about licenses or the legality of practicing with only a PGY-1 year completed. It is absolutely correct to state the scope of practice is restricted with only a PGY-1 year completed and it is incorrect to state you have "unlimited" license to practice medicine/surgery as you choose. Many hospitals require you to be minimum board eligible before they will grant you privileges, and you already agree procedural medicine is not an option.

No physician has unlimited access to practice all medicine and surgery beyond their individual training and scope. This is not a discussion of theory, rather one of practical application.

That last part is the key, since as I mentioned the state doesn't care what I do once I have my full licence. The limiting factor is the facilities themselves. That said, where I am the moonlighting opportunities are fairly diverse - though obviously limited to more general medicine. Urgent care, as you mentioned, weekend inpatient call for smaller hospitals, part time work as university health centers.