• SDN Site Updates

    Hey everyone! The site will be down for approximately 2 hours on Thursday, August 5th for site updates.

hopefuloptom

Full Member
Jan 30, 2011
60
0
Status (Visible)
  1. Pre-Optometry
Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.
 

OphthoQuestions

Membership Revoked
Removed
Jan 4, 2012
42
0
www.facebook.com
Status (Visible)
Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.


I am pretty sure that the answer would be "No".

Why would you spend 4 years completing an OD degree when you want to become an Ophthalmologist? It is better to spend those 4 years doing Ophthalmology research and building personal connections with faculty at different Ophthalmology departments.
 

Shnurek

Membership Revoked
Removed
10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2010
2,335
9
NYC
Status (Visible)
  1. Optometry Student
I'm pretty sure that the answer would be "Yes".(it surely wouldn't be a detriment)

You learn about eyes for 4 years in OD school, way more than in any medical school.

Now as for alternates, doing research for 4 years or doing a PhD. in those 4 years might be also a good idea and certainly should boost your chances of matching ophthalmology. You can do a Vision Science PhD. at many Optometry schools throughout the country if you wish. Or if you are only passionate about the clinical side of things then yes, go to Optometry school.

We have an IMG Ophthalmologist that went straight into 3rd year in our Optometry school. He was a Strabismus surgeon from South Asia. Since the healthcare education system in America is so uppity its hard for people to do what they know excellently somewhere else over here.

Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.
 
About the Ads

jsh1986

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Apr 28, 2010
69
3
Status (Visible)
  1. MD/PhD Student
No.


Find a lab where you can do research. This is what most img do- the ones that I've con across, if they work really hard and make contributions to the field...it generally ends very strongly for them. A few years may be required.

What is salient to the people who hold the keys to a residency spot? They are MDs. They won't care if you are an OD. At the very least as an alternative to research, you could always do an intense general surgery internship at a top place. Not as hard to get as you may think. I've met a few ophtho residents who did this. Best bet probably is to be a research fellow. And Don't go to an optometry school to do the research. Go to an ophthalmology drpt at a top medical center. Publish in ophthalmology, ajo, eye. Be nice snd meet people. Get letters from them. Apply to programs.

Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.
 

OphthoQuestions

Membership Revoked
Removed
Jan 4, 2012
42
0
www.facebook.com
Status (Visible)
Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.

Do you really think this is a viable pathway?

#1: no malpractice insurer in their right mind would insure you if you did not have proper training

#2: no insurance plans would list you as a provider if you did not get proper training

#3: no hospital or ASC would give you privileges to operate without residency training.

I'm not sure where you are getting your (mis)-information, but it is quite scary.

-OQ
 

Visionary

Medical Retinologist
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 19, 2003
1,235
37
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Do you really think this is a viable pathway?

#1: no malpractice insurer in their right mind would insure you if you did not have proper training

#2: no insurance plans would list you as a provider if you did not get proper training

#3: no hospital or ASC would give you privileges to operate without residency training.

I'm not sure where you are getting your (mis)-information, but it is quite scary.

-OQ

Hey, it's just Shnurek being Shnurek.
 

speyeder

Attending
15+ Year Member
Jul 24, 2004
421
10
Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.

To everyone except Shnurek, the answer is probably 'no'. Getting into ophthalmology as an IMG is difficult. There are things that you can do to improve your odds but going to optometry school is not one of them.
 

RestoreSight

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Jun 12, 2011
460
21
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.

This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.
 

Eyefixer

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Nov 26, 2007
383
100
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
:beat: and :corny:


I'm pretty sure that the answer would be "Yes".(it surely wouldn't be a detriment)

You learn about eyes for 4 years in OD school, way more than in any medical school.

Now as for alternates, doing research for 4 years or doing a PhD. in those 4 years might be also a good idea and certainly should boost your chances of matching ophthalmology. You can do a Vision Science PhD. at many Optometry schools throughout the country if you wish. Or if you are only passionate about the clinical side of things then yes, go to Optometry school.

We have an IMG Ophthalmologist that went straight into 3rd year in our Optometry school. He was a Strabismus surgeon from South Asia. Since the healthcare education system in America is so uppity its hard for people to do what they know excellently somewhere else over here.

Now if you want to get really technical you can just practice ophthalmology/optometry without doing either because if you do an internship here you can have an unlimited license to practice medicine/surgery. Your malpractice rates might be a bit high because you won't be board certified but it is certainly an option.
 

Visionary

Medical Retinologist
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 19, 2003
1,235
37
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.

Mind powers, my friend. Mind powers.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
Volunteer Staff
15+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
24,805
42,485
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.

You are quite wrong. I'm a 2nd year FP resident with a full license in my state. As far as the state cares, I'm every bit as much a doctor as the surgeon with 20 years experience.

Now you're obviously right about OR privileges, insurance panels, and the danger that a lack of a full residency poses to patients.... but its quite legal.
 

Shnurek

Membership Revoked
Removed
10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2010
2,335
9
NYC
Status (Visible)
  1. Optometry Student
This isn't true. Where do you get your information from? With only a general internship completed the MOST you could do is urgent care shift work under very strict limits, if that. My residency will allow moonlighting, but it is awfully hard to pull off, and I don't think one year of general internship prepares you well enough to triage patients properly. You do not have "unlimited access" to practice medicine and there is no OR in the country that would allow you to operate without any formal training. Any procedural work related to ophthalmology would be totally off limits, and frankly, to even attempt to provide care beyond your training would violate basic ethics of medicine (do no harm, remember?) and expose you and your institution to serious malpractice claims.

You should avoid posting grossly misleading information.

I'm not wrong or misleading. I was being technical and its the law. Now, would you want to do this is a completely different story.

You are quite wrong. I'm a 2nd year FP resident with a full license in my state. As far as the state cares, I'm every bit as much a doctor as the surgeon with 20 years experience.

Now you're obviously right about OR privileges, insurance panels, and the danger that a lack of a full residency poses to patients.... but its quite legal.

Thank you.

I know of a few MDs that do cosmetic stuff with no residency. Walk the path less traveled?

Also in a few states all you need is 6 months of internship and if I'm not mistaken in a couple you don't need anything.
 

RestoreSight

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Jun 12, 2011
460
21
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
You are quite wrong. I'm a 2nd year FP resident with a full license in my state. As far as the state cares, I'm every bit as much a doctor as the surgeon with 20 years experience.

Now you're obviously right about OR privileges, insurance panels, and the danger that a lack of a full residency poses to patients.... but its quite legal.

Never mentioned anything about licenses or the legality of practicing with only a PGY-1 year completed. It is absolutely correct to state the scope of practice is restricted with only a PGY-1 year completed and it is incorrect to state you have "unlimited" license to practice medicine/surgery as you choose. Many hospitals require you to be minimum board eligible before they will grant you privileges, and you already agree procedural medicine is not an option.

No physician has unlimited access to practice all medicine and surgery beyond their individual training and scope. This is not a discussion of theory, rather one of practical application.
 
About the Ads

Shnurek

Membership Revoked
Removed
10+ Year Member
Apr 10, 2010
2,335
9
NYC
Status (Visible)
  1. Optometry Student
In most states, simply being a physician will allow you to practice in any area you want in an office setting. Malpractice carriers typically won't insure you unless you're residency trained, and hospital credentials committees won't grant you privileges unless you're residency trained in the specialty in which you practice.

So, if an EM doc wanted to open up a cosmetic clinic doing laser hair removal (know of one doc that did that), hair transplants (yet another who did that), etc., and he or she doesn't want malpractice insurance, then in most states this is permissible.

And yes, I'm talking from a legal standpoint so if you want to do refractions or prescribe oral medications/eye drops you can basically be an OD by using your MD license and open up your own practice even after only PGY-1 and passing all Steps of the USMLE or COMLEX, technically. Don't worry I did my research before picking professions.

Just like people tell me that oooo even though you can do laser surgery as an OD in KY/OK its so hard to buy a laser and get enough patients blah blah blah well the point is that someday I can technically and legally do it.
 

ophthope

Oh Dear, No Venison
5+ Year Member
Dec 29, 2011
410
91
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
To the original poster hopefuloptom:

Please take note that the only person in this forum encouraging a path to Ophthalmology through Optometry for an IMG is an Optometrist. I would put much greater value on the advice of the Ophthalmologists, as some of these very people will be the ones choosing who to accept to residency programs. It is going to be very hard in his position to obtain a residency spot. If he is to have any chance he needs to develop close relationships with programs and have a CV that proves his dedication to the field. His best chance of doing this is going to be through research at an academic center - and that's what I would encourage him to pursue if he decides that being an Ophthalmologist in the US is his ultimate goal.

In my brief time here on the SDN Ophthalmology boards I have seen a number of threads hijacked and trainwrecked by an Optometrist's or Optometry student's post. I'm sorry that this appears to have happened with your thread as well. There does not appear to be any safe haven away from this behavior.
 

ophthope

Oh Dear, No Venison
5+ Year Member
Dec 29, 2011
410
91
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
there is a political war going on between opto and ophtho

I hope they're giving you medals, commander.


tumblr_lr84erXWFA1r0ojhto1_500.gif
 

tkim

10 cc's cordrazine
15+ Year Member
Aug 2, 2002
7,628
380
New England
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
I'm not wrong or misleading. I was being technical and its the law. Now, would you want to do this is a completely different story.

Thank you.

I know of a few MDs that do cosmetic stuff with no residency. Walk the path less traveled?

Also in a few states all you need is 6 months of internship and if I'm not mistaken in a couple you don't need anything.

You are mistaken - on all counts:

http://www.fsmb.org/usmle_eliinitial.html

The minimum training for US grads is 1 year for some states. There is NO state that does not require training before getting a license to practice medicine.

For IMGs, there are only two states that require only one year. The remaining states require a minimum of two or three years of post-graduate training before being granted a license.
 

myhandsarecold

Full Member
Dec 2, 2009
400
4
Status (Visible)
  1. Resident [Any Field]
i interviewed with a foreigner for a transitional program. she matched into ophto. she graduated 3-4 years ago and did 3-4 years of research in an ophto department. according to her, she did not have very good steps, but was very likeable and her department took her in.

i guess that is what you need to do.
 

jsh1986

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Apr 28, 2010
69
3
Status (Visible)
  1. MD/PhD Student
And knowing when to STFU is apparently only taught in medical school.

It is not a biased answer.

You are just wrong.

hopefuloptom: Take it from the MDs in the room who've watched our IMG colleagues go through this themselves: spend several years as a research postdoc/fellow.

An easy place to start looking is Facebook's ARVO page, ads in ophtho journals, word of mouth, etc.

Either way you will get a biased answer because there is a political war going on between opto and ophtho so call up admissions to ophthalmology residency programs and ask them yourself. E.g.: http://www.med.nyu.edu/ophthalmology/residency/contact.html
 

Meibomian SxN

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Feb 2, 2008
706
4
Status (Visible)
  1. Optometrist
Hello,

I would like to know if it is possible if an IMG MD who also finishes an OD program in USA might have the chance of being accepted in an Ophthalmology residency program. He has attempts on one of his steps (namely Step 2 CS) and that is why it was difficult for him to get a residency position. Would finishing an OD program increase his chances for Ophthalmology position?

Thanks ahead of time.

Instead of the OD program, why not sign up for a test prep course for Step 2? Be a lot cheaper.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
Volunteer Staff
15+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
24,805
42,485
Status (Visible)
  1. Attending Physician
Never mentioned anything about licenses or the legality of practicing with only a PGY-1 year completed. It is absolutely correct to state the scope of practice is restricted with only a PGY-1 year completed and it is incorrect to state you have "unlimited" license to practice medicine/surgery as you choose. Many hospitals require you to be minimum board eligible before they will grant you privileges, and you already agree procedural medicine is not an option.

No physician has unlimited access to practice all medicine and surgery beyond their individual training and scope. This is not a discussion of theory, rather one of practical application.

That last part is the key, since as I mentioned the state doesn't care what I do once I have my full licence. The limiting factor is the facilities themselves. That said, where I am the moonlighting opportunities are fairly diverse - though obviously limited to more general medicine. Urgent care, as you mentioned, weekend inpatient call for smaller hospitals, part time work as university health centers.
 
About the Ads
This thread is more than 9 years old.

Your message may be considered spam for the following reasons:

  1. Your new thread title is very short, and likely is unhelpful.
  2. Your reply is very short and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  3. Your reply is very long and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  4. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
  5. Your message is mostly quotes or spoilers.
  6. Your reply has occurred very quickly after a previous reply and likely does not add anything to the thread.
  7. This thread is locked.