MD vs. DO schools

[premed12080]

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Hi,

I am a senior at a premier public university. I got a 28Q on the MCAT (9PS, 9VR, 10BS) and will have a 3.4 cumulative GPA with roughly a 3.0 science GPA. I have excellent extra-curriculars and clinical experience (EMT on ambulance, rape crisis advocate, laboratory research experience, etc...). My question is whether it would be more wise to go to a lower level allopathic school where my grades can realistically get me in, or to shoot for one of the better Osteopathic schools. Residency match rates and opportunities for advancement are the factors that I'm considering between the MD and DO route.

Thank you.

 

[XCourtSmash]

I personally feel that residency matching is more dependent on the person than the school. The school will help you, but in the end, it's up to the person. At least that's how I feel about it.

 

[MedPR]

Hi,

I am a senior at a premier public university. I got a 28Q on the MCAT (9PS, 9VR, 10BS) and will have a 3.4 cumulative GPA with roughly a 3.0 science GPA. I have excellent extra-curriculars and clinical experience (EMT on ambulance, rape crisis advocate, laboratory research experience, etc...). My question is whether it would be more wise to go to a lower level allopathic school where my grades can realistically get me in, or to shoot for one of the better Osteopathic schools. Residency match rates and opportunities for advancement are the factors that I'm considering between the MD and DO route.

Thank you.

It's unlikely that you'll get into MD unless you're a URM. Even with a 3.4/30/28 you're unlikely to get into top DO programs like MSUCOM/TCOM. However, even a bottom tier MD school will give you more residency options than a DO school.

I personally feel that residency matching is more dependent on the person than the school. The school will help you, but in the end, it's up to the person. At least that's how I feel about it.

This is correct as long as you aren't comparing an MD student with a DO student.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Genuinely speaking your gpa/mcat is too low for USMD schools and for even DO schools you're below average. However you have the potential to get into a good DO school if you apply early enough next year.

As a DO your somewhat disadvantaged in the ACGME match. But you make up for it with the AOA match.

 

[Goro]

That low sGPA is going to hurt you, but your chances are best with the lowest of the low-tier MD schools, and the newest DO schools. You'd probably get an interview at mine, but I don't know what my colleagues will make of that sGPA, and that's what worries me.

Hi,

I am a senior at a premier public university. I got a 28Q on the MCAT (9PS, 9VR, 10BS) and will have a 3.4 cumulative GPA with roughly a 3.0 science GPA. I have excellent extra-curriculars and clinical experience (EMT on ambulance, rape crisis advocate, laboratory research experience, etc...). My question is whether it would be more wise to go to a lower level allopathic school where my grades can realistically get me in, or to shoot for one of the better Osteopathic schools. Residency match rates and opportunities for advancement are the factors that I'm considering between the MD and DO route.

Thank you.

 

[koan]

Is the 3.0 sGPA after grade replacement on AACOMAS? If your GPA (especially sGPA) gets bumped due to that I'm guessing you'd have more options with DO schools. That was my situation, I had a lousy GPA with AMCAS but a decent one with AACOMAS. Your MCAT is also more in line with averages for DO programs.

 

[Mehd School]

With a 3.0 science, you "realistically" don't have much of a shot at allopathic schools. A good chunk of osteopathic schools are above you in terms of average sgpa as well.

If we're speaking realistically.

 

[411309]

I think he will have plenty of sucess at mid level and maybe a few upper DO schools. My stats are lower than his and I got interviews at established schools. I agree that MD may be an uphill bttle with a 3.0 science though. and applying to OOS schools with a 28 could be really rough.

 

[thepoopologist]

Hi,

I am a senior at a premier public university. I got a 28Q on the MCAT (9PS, 9VR, 10BS) and will have a 3.4 cumulative GPA with roughly a 3.0 science GPA. I have excellent extra-curriculars and clinical experience (EMT on ambulance, rape crisis advocate, laboratory research experience, etc...). My question is whether it would be more wise to go to a lower level allopathic school where my grades can realistically get me in, or to shoot for one of the better Osteopathic schools. Residency match rates and opportunities for advancement are the factors that I'm considering between the MD and DO route.

Thank you.

I'd apply to both MD and DO and then decide between what you're offered. My personal opinion, after 3 years of school and going through residency applications now, if you have a choice choose the cheapest MD school you can tolerate. If you don't and are choosing between DO, then choose the cheapest school you can possibly see yourself attending. If you have trouble with either and are on at least your third application cycle and insist on becoming a physician regardless of specialty, and get into a Caribbean school, that school should be SGU, and you should be able to stomach the idea of jumping ship after 1-2 semesters if you aren't doing stellar at SGU.

tl;dr

In short, USMD and USDO are both decent options, since DO's have their own residencies to choose from, but attend USMD if you can. SGU is the only Caribbean option if you are desperate, and you better be a standout student if you head to Grenada.

 

[488677]

Hi,

I am a senior at a premier public university. I got a 28Q on the MCAT (9PS, 9VR, 10BS) and will have a 3.4 cumulative GPA with roughly a 3.0 science GPA. I have excellent extra-curriculars and clinical experience (EMT on ambulance, rape crisis advocate, laboratory research experience, etc...). My question is whether it would be more wise to go to a lower level allopathic school where my grades can realistically get me in, or to shoot for one of the better Osteopathic schools. Residency match rates and opportunities for advancement are the factors that I'm considering between the MD and DO route.

Thank you.

I am choosing to attend a top DO school over a bottom MD school because I think I will be exposed to more opportunities at my DO school. I suggest heavily researching the schools that you are invited to attend.

I would also suggest getting off SDN ASAP before the pre-med minions steal your soul. PM me if you want to discuss this further.

 

[felix2929]

I would also suggest getting off SDN ASAP before the pre-med minions steal your soul. PM me if you want to discuss this further.[/QUOTE]

probably the best advice i've seen in the six months i've been on sdn

 

[oms2]

good advice above.
unless you want to hang around and read all the inane repetitious endless wishy washy random petty ignorant provocative bullsh`t posted by losers/poseurs/weirdos who spew bullsh`t for people to clean up.
(and then shortly thereafter, out of boredom/stupidity/laziness, some ******* comes along and digs up the same old bullsh`t from the deep dark depths of the giant bullsh`t pile, and then, guess what? people rush out from all corners to respond, lest the bullsh`t degenerates further into more bullsh`t, or worse, becomes accepted truth.
and the cycle repeats itself all over again: bullsh`t created, bullsh`t buried, and then bullsh`t resurrected and raised to the nth degree.)

 

[CRCprofessional]

good advice above.
unless you want to hang around and read all the inane repetitious endless wishy washy random petty ignorant provocative bullsh`t posted by losers/poseurs/weirdos who spew bullsh`t for people to clean up.
(and then shortly thereafter, out of boredom/stupidity/laziness, some ******* comes along and digs up the same old bullsh`t from the deep dark depths of the giant bullsh`t pile, and then, guess what? people rush out from all corners to respond, lest the bullsh`t degenerates further into more bullsh`t, or worse, becomes accepted truth.
and the cycle repeats itself all over again: bullsh`t created, bullsh`t buried, and then bullsh`t resurrected and raised to the nth degree.)

Hahaha this is hilarious (and so true).

 

[TriagePreMed]

Hi,

I am a senior at a premier public university. I got a 28Q on the MCAT (9PS, 9VR, 10BS) and will have a 3.4 cumulative GPA with roughly a 3.0 science GPA. I have excellent extra-curriculars and clinical experience (EMT on ambulance, rape crisis advocate, laboratory research experience, etc...). My question is whether it would be more wise to go to a lower level allopathic school where my grades can realistically get me in, or to shoot for one of the better Osteopathic schools. Residency match rates and opportunities for advancement are the factors that I'm considering between the MD and DO route.

Thank you.

Shoot for one of the mid to low Osteopathic schools. The better ones actually have a c3.6/s3.5 GPA. The MCAT is good though.

 

[DarkHorizon]

I am choosing to attend a top DO school over a bottom MD school because I think I will be exposed to more opportunities at my DO school. I suggest heavily researching the schools that you are invited to attend.

I would also suggest getting off SDN ASAP before the pre-med minions steal your soul. PM me if you want to discuss this further.

Flawed thinking

 

[488677]

Flawed thinking

PM if you would like to discuss this further.

 

[zoner]

Flawed thinking

Yeap. I got decent stat better thanm the op and already got a couple rejections. One from a very reputable school

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using SDN Mobile

 

[Mosonik]

I am choosing to attend a top DO school over a bottom MD school because I think I will be exposed to more opportunities at my DO school. I suggest heavily researching the schools that you are invited to attend.

I would also suggest getting off SDN ASAP before the pre-med minions steal your soul. PM me if you want to discuss this further.

haha, this just made my day and that's mostly because it's true.

 

[488677]

haha, this just made my day and that's mostly because it's true.

As funny as it sounds, it is 100% true; I am a victim of pre-medical insecurity/inferiority complex. I have multiple users (several on this thread alone) blocked because of the factless nonsense that they post.

If you rely on the "facts" generated by the SDN culture, you are going to have a bad time. If you are interested in a certain school/residency/fellowship, rely on primary sources for your research--not the pre-med who has an uncle that once had a patient who thought his MD/DO had a bad haircut and will never see them again.

Here's something to think about: the majority of medical students, residents, and attendings (the people that actually may possibly someday have an impact on your career) have never even come across SDN; they are too busy actually doing something with their careers to worry about what nerd-ass pre-meds think of their career choice.

If you like a school--MD or DO--go to it.

Work hard. Rock your boards and grades. Nail your rotations. Profit.

 

[MedPR]

As funny as it sounds, it is 100% true; I am a victim of pre-medical insecurity/inferiority complex. I have multiple users (several on this thread alone) blocked because of the factless nonsense that they post.

If you rely on the "facts" generated by the SDN culture, you are going to have a bad time. If you are interested in a certain school/residency/fellowship, rely on primary sources for your research--not the pre-med who has an uncle that once had a patient who thought his MD/DO had a bad haircut and will never see them again.

Here's something to think about: the majority of medical students, residents, and attendings (the people that actually may possibly someday have an impact on your career) have never even come across SDN; they are too busy actually doing something with their careers to worry about what nerd-ass pre-meds think of their career choice.

If you like a school--MD or DO--go to it.

Work hard. Rock your boards and grades. Nail your rotations. Profit.

I'm not saying the top people are on SDN, but the majority (the people you're talking about) certainly aren't the best at what they do. SDN fosters neuroticism and perfectionism. Two things that get you to the top.

Will I end up at the top? Odds are no, but SDN will not be my or anyone elses demise.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile

 

[zipnogg]

Yeah, it really has to do with which school fits you best. Numbers really are not everything. If you truly believe in your experiences, and you've learned lessons from them that solidified your wanting to become a physician, then those feelings should be portrayed in your statements and also at your interviews.

Don't get so paranoid about numbers. Hard work pays off.

 

[JGimpel]

I hope this puts this and the countless US MD/ Island MD / DO threads to rest:

The Osteopathic Draft

It's so disheartening to see the field I sought out from undergrad continue its downward spiral and that is why I will leave it soon to do chart review for my former enemy. I don't correct my coworkers on massaging my way through medical school anymore, don't try to explain the non-existent differences between a DO and an MD and definitely don't recommend following my path to anyone I even remotely care about.

I know that there are probably 50 DO students around the U.S. filming a version of "Gangnam Style" with some catchy OMT-based lyrics, but before you watch any of them trying to decide if you should go to DO school or not, here's some advice with the facts, much of it provided by our most prominent journal, an unfortunate number of them old and never followed up on. I wonder if they stopped looking at the statistics after 2006 for a reason...

The facts:
Worst education in the medical arena:
A LOT of students fail out of DO school or fail any one of the COMLEX exams enough times to force them into the worst programs for the lowliest of front-line "primary-care" jobs less desperate doctors don't have to take.
Doctors have a really bad habit of laying down and taking whatever is shoveled on them but if you care about being a DO, before or if/after you graduate, call and write your elected representatives, local radio and TV stations and start talking about what's going on. Tuition is among the highest in the world. Class sizes are bigger than some Caribbean colleges so that the same kind of pay up front, fail out but we keep your money scam can be employed. Also realize that absolutely no college in the world will accept your DO classes for credit except maybe another AOA school in the most extreme circumstances, so if you fall victim to this scam, you'll have to start over medical school with already $200K in loans.

The DO educators are sought out in desperation to fill a position and when they are found out to be incompetent, they just transfer to another DO school that hasn't even graduated an LVN class yet.

Here's a link that was trying to show that DO students should have destroyed the MD students when it came down to Neuromuscular issues; they didn't and often got trumped badly by the MD students. But what's a 25 question quiz got to do with anything?
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/6/350.full.pdf

A 6 year-old article stating that less than half of DO's choose to stay in Osteopathic training if they graduate from DO school. The situation is a lot worse now:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/2/59.full

How DO students are rated on their Osteopathic training and skill set:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/5/296.full.pdf

Ancient 2006 fact sheet showing that far less than half of DOs get board certifications from the AOA. If that's changed at all, it's news to me.
http://www.do-online.org/pdf/ost_factsheet.pdf

The most recent Annual Report with the usual propaganda and how well DOs are known in Chicago and Michigan. Skip ahead to the balance sheets on page 8. I'm not an accountant, but something doesn't seem right about the different budgets for an organization of this size.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/leadership/Documents/2012-AnnualReport.pdf

Medicare did a study of 17 million patients from 1984 to 1993 and care and osteopathic hospitals were associated with worse outcomes than allopathic ones.
"While the study did find substantially more favorable odds ratios for some procedures at osteopathic hospitals, such as laminectomies and endarterectomies, these facilities had the highest risk-adjusted mortality rate for 10 common procedures."
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/9/558.full.pdf
Original Report:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Med Care. 2000;38:231–245

Link to the latest Survey of Graduating AOA seniors; we're overloaded with debt and not satisfied with the education we've received:
http://www.aacom.org/data/classsurveys/Documents/2011-12_Graduating_Summary.pdf

The AMA has made it clear that DO students are not welcome in their programs and have continued to make steps to exclude them. If you don't take their exam, the USMLE, don't even bother waiting for an interview; they definitely won't bother to tell you your application is incomplete without it.

Try and get a rotation at a competitive AMA program as a DO; you'll either be flatly refused or offered it at a ridiculous "application fee." I can't wait until we're entirely excluded from AMA programs, and from what I heard about the last few batches of COMLEX scores, a ton of people that didn't pay off the people leaking the questions failed out, so it may not be that big a problem any more.

The least qualified doctors from the patient and peers' perspectives:
Dr. Gimp has accomplished his mission; to push most DO students into DO programs at hospitals only the most indigent would go to that no reputable fellowship program would accept doctors from. He's also made DOs the laughing stock of patients and other providers alike with his "Protect The Penthouse" plan when the patients try to get a bit more history on their DO and find out just how much trouble they've had with their impossible tests. And when you get sued because the patients and their attorneys see how easy a target you are, the NBOME will be furnishing the most damning evidence against you. The established DOs have their patients, the new ones don't stand a chance.

The most indebted doctors that are forced to cut corners in quality of care to make ends meet:
Nothing has gone up in price as quickly as our tuition. Are you telling me that you actually needed the extra $3000 per year from your 700+ students and you couldn't see it coming enough to warn them ahead of time? Had a DO sell you a teeth bleaching treatment, a chemical peel or botox yet? It's coming.

We shall soon see the Osteopathic Draft as the final answer from our leaders to these issues where if you're unfortunate to be lured into a DO school, you'll be forced to sign a contract to be in an Osteopathic primary care residency and must continue through your training and remain in that primary care position. Ohio anyone?

Don't even try to make that extra dollar or two on the "Massage-25 Modifier," it's the easiest way to single out DOs that bill for OMT and 3rd party auditors that Medicare likes to use will rip you to shreds for using it. Restart medical school anywhere but Osteopathy and you may be able to move up to tuna in a can from Friskies in a bag in a few years.

Insert mike-drop here...

 

[HalfListic]

I hope this puts this and the countless US MD/ Island MD / DO threads to rest:

.

🙂 ...no, these threads are immortal. Everyone's participation in them is cyclical. They evolve at times, but trust me, this wont put anything to rest.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I hope this puts this and the countless US MD/ Island MD / DO threads to rest:

The Osteopathic Draft

It's so disheartening to see the field I sought out from undergrad continue its downward spiral and that is why I will leave it soon to do chart review for my former enemy. I don't correct my coworkers on massaging my way through medical school anymore, don't try to explain the non-existent differences between a DO and an MD and definitely don't recommend following my path to anyone I even remotely care about.

I know that there are probably 50 DO students around the U.S. filming a version of "Gangnam Style" with some catchy OMT-based lyrics, but before you watch any of them trying to decide if you should go to DO school or not, here's some advice with the facts, much of it provided by our most prominent journal, an unfortunate number of them old and never followed up on. I wonder if they stopped looking at the statistics after 2006 for a reason...

The facts:
Worst education in the medical arena:
A LOT of students fail out of DO school or fail any one of the COMLEX exams enough times to force them into the worst programs for the lowliest of front-line "primary-care" jobs less desperate doctors don't have to take.
Doctors have a really bad habit of laying down and taking whatever is shoveled on them but if you care about being a DO, before or if/after you graduate, call and write your elected representatives, local radio and TV stations and start talking about what's going on. Tuition is among the highest in the world. Class sizes are bigger than some Carribean colleges so that the same kind of pay up front, fail out but we keep your money scam can be employed. Also realize that absolutely no college in the world will accept all of your DO classes for credit, if any of them, so if you fall victim to this scam, you'll have to start over medical school with already $200K in loans.

The DO educators are sought out in desperation to fill a position and when they are found out to be incompetent, they just transfer to another DO school that hasn't even graduated an LVN class yet.

Here's a link that was trying to show that DO students should have destroyed the MD students when it came down to Neuromuscular issues; they didn't and often got trumped badly by the MD students. But what's a 25 question quiz got to do with anything?
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/6/350.full.pdf

A 6 year-old article stating that less than half of DO's choose to stay in Osteopathic training if they graduate from DO school. The situation is a lot worse now:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/2/59.full

How DO students are rated on their Osteopathic training and skill set:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/5/296.full.pdf

Ancient 2006 fact sheet showing that far less than half of DOs get board certifications from the AOA. If that's changed at all, it's news to me.
http://www.do-online.org/pdf/ost_factsheet.pdf

The most recent Annual Report with the usual propaganda and how well DOs are known in Chicago and Michigan. Skip ahead to the balance sheets on page 8. I'm not an accountant, but something doesn't seem right about the different budgets for an organization of this size.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/leadership/Documents/2012-AnnualReport.pdf

Medicare did a study of 17 million patients from 1984 to 1993 and care and osteopathic hospitals were associated with worse outcomes than allopathic ones.
"While the study did find substantially more favorable odds ratios for some procedures at osteopathic hospitals, such as laminectomies and endarterectomies, these facilities had the highest risk-adjusted mortality rate for 10 common procedures."
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/9/558.full.pdf
Original Report:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Med Care. 2000;38:231–245

The AMA has made it clear that DO students are not welcome in their programs and have continued to make steps to exclude them. If you don't take their exam, the USMLE, don't even bother waiting for an interview; they definitely won't bother to tell you your application is incomplete without it.

Try and get a rotation at a competitive AMA program as a DO; you'll either be flatly refused or offered it at a ridiculous "application fee." I can't wait until we're entirely excluded from AMA programs, and from what I heard about the last few batches of COMLEX scores, a ton of people that didn't pay off the people leaking the questions failed out, so it may not be that big a problem any more.

The least qualified doctors from the patient and peers' perspectives:
Dr. Gimp has accomplished his mission; to push most DO students into DO programs at hospitals only the most indigent would go to that no reputable fellowship program would accept doctors from. He's also made DOs the laughing stock of patients and other providers alike with his "Protect The Penthouse" plan when the patients try to get a bit more history on their DO and find out just how much trouble they've had with their impossible tests. And when you get sued because the patients and their attorneys see how easy a target you are, the NBOME will be furnishing the most damning evidence against you. The established DOs have their patients, the new ones don't stand a chance.

The most indebted doctors that are forced to cut corners in quality of care to make ends meet:
Nothing has gone up in price as quickly as our tuition. Are you telling me that you actually needed the extra $3000 per year from your 700+ students and you couldn't see it coming enough to warn them ahead of time? Had a DO sell you a teeth bleaching treatment, a chemical peel or botox yet? It's coming.

We shall soon see the Osteopathic Draft as the final answer from our leaders to these issues where if you're unfortunate to be lured into a DO school, you'll be forced to sign a contract to be in an Osteopathic primary care residency and must continue through your training and remain in that primary care position. Ohio anyone?

Don't even try to make that extra dollar or two on the "Massage-25 Modifier," it's the easiest way to single out DOs that bill for OMT and 3rd party auditors that Medicare likes to use will rip you to shreds for using it. Restart medical school anywhere but Osteopathy and you may be able to move up to tuna in a can from Friskies in a bag in a few years.

Insert mike-drop here...

What else were you going to do with that worthless Biology degree

What about the Caribbean vs DO option? I would rather be forced into primary care than to not be guaranteed a residency, thus a job, 4 years down the line. You did not address that. Some people dont have the option of MD school because for whatever reason, they did not score that magical 30 on the MCAT.

At least if you go to DO school and pass everything, you will end up with a job that pays good money. Wether or not the opportunity cost was worth it is a whole other set of issues.

And I would rather be a doctor in primary care in a "bad" program than not a doctor at all.

 

[488677]

I hope this puts this and the countless US MD/ Island MD / DO threads to rest:

The Osteopathic Draft

It's so disheartening to see the field I sought out from undergrad continue its downward spiral and that is why I will leave it soon to do chart review for my former enemy. I don't correct my coworkers on massaging my way through medical school anymore, don't try to explain the non-existent differences between a DO and an MD and definitely don't recommend following my path to anyone I even remotely care about.

I know that there are probably 50 DO students around the U.S. filming a version of "Gangnam Style" with some catchy OMT-based lyrics, but before you watch any of them trying to decide if you should go to DO school or not, here's some advice with the facts, much of it provided by our most prominent journal, an unfortunate number of them old and never followed up on. I wonder if they stopped looking at the statistics after 2006 for a reason...

The facts:
Worst education in the medical arena:
A LOT of students fail out of DO school or fail any one of the COMLEX exams enough times to force them into the worst programs for the lowliest of front-line "primary-care" jobs less desperate doctors don't have to take.
Doctors have a really bad habit of laying down and taking whatever is shoveled on them but if you care about being a DO, before or if/after you graduate, call and write your elected representatives, local radio and TV stations and start talking about what's going on. Tuition is among the highest in the world. Class sizes are bigger than some Carribean colleges so that the same kind of pay up front, fail out but we keep your money scam can be employed. Also realize that absolutely no college in the world will accept all of your DO classes for credit, if any of them, so if you fall victim to this scam, you'll have to start over medical school with already $200K in loans.

The DO educators are sought out in desperation to fill a position and when they are found out to be incompetent, they just transfer to another DO school that hasn't even graduated an LVN class yet.

Here's a link that was trying to show that DO students should have destroyed the MD students when it came down to Neuromuscular issues; they didn't and often got trumped badly by the MD students. But what's a 25 question quiz got to do with anything?
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/6/350.full.pdf

A 6 year-old article stating that less than half of DO's choose to stay in Osteopathic training if they graduate from DO school. The situation is a lot worse now:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/2/59.full

How DO students are rated on their Osteopathic training and skill set:
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/5/296.full.pdf

Ancient 2006 fact sheet showing that far less than half of DOs get board certifications from the AOA. If that's changed at all, it's news to me.
http://www.do-online.org/pdf/ost_factsheet.pdf

The most recent Annual Report with the usual propaganda and how well DOs are known in Chicago and Michigan. Skip ahead to the balance sheets on page 8. I'm not an accountant, but something doesn't seem right about the different budgets for an organization of this size.
http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/about/leadership/Documents/2012-AnnualReport.pdf

Medicare did a study of 17 million patients from 1984 to 1993 and care and osteopathic hospitals were associated with worse outcomes than allopathic ones.
"While the study did find substantially more favorable odds ratios for some procedures at osteopathic hospitals, such as laminectomies and endarterectomies, these facilities had the highest risk-adjusted mortality rate for 10 common procedures."
http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/9/558.full.pdf
Original Report:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Med Care. 2000;38:231–245

The AMA has made it clear that DO students are not welcome in their programs and have continued to make steps to exclude them. If you don't take their exam, the USMLE, don't even bother waiting for an interview; they definitely won't bother to tell you your application is incomplete without it.

Try and get a rotation at a competitive AMA program as a DO; you'll either be flatly refused or offered it at a ridiculous "application fee." I can't wait until we're entirely excluded from AMA programs, and from what I heard about the last few batches of COMLEX scores, a ton of people that didn't pay off the people leaking the questions failed out, so it may not be that big a problem any more.

The least qualified doctors from the patient and peers' perspectives:
Dr. Gimp has accomplished his mission; to push most DO students into DO programs at hospitals only the most indigent would go to that no reputable fellowship program would accept doctors from. He's also made DOs the laughing stock of patients and other providers alike with his "Protect The Penthouse" plan when the patients try to get a bit more history on their DO and find out just how much trouble they've had with their impossible tests. And when you get sued because the patients and their attorneys see how easy a target you are, the NBOME will be furnishing the most damning evidence against you. The established DOs have their patients, the new ones don't stand a chance.

The most indebted doctors that are forced to cut corners in quality of care to make ends meet:
Nothing has gone up in price as quickly as our tuition. Are you telling me that you actually needed the extra $3000 per year from your 700+ students and you couldn't see it coming enough to warn them ahead of time? Had a DO sell you a teeth bleaching treatment, a chemical peel or botox yet? It's coming.

We shall soon see the Osteopathic Draft as the final answer from our leaders to these issues where if you're unfortunate to be lured into a DO school, you'll be forced to sign a contract to be in an Osteopathic primary care residency and must continue through your training and remain in that primary care position. Ohio anyone?

Don't even try to make that extra dollar or two on the "Massage-25 Modifier," it's the easiest way to single out DOs that bill for OMT and 3rd party auditors that Medicare likes to use will rip you to shreds for using it. Restart medical school anywhere but Osteopathy and you may be able to move up to tuna in a can from Friskies in a bag in a few years.

Insert mike-drop here...

...not sure if serious or troll.

either way, i have no idea where to begin...

i...um...hope you become happier with your life?

 

[thepoopologist]

A LOT of students fail out of DO school or fail any one of the COMLEX exams enough times to force them into the worst programs for the lowliest of front-line "primary-care" jobs less desperate doctors don't have to take.

While I despise my medical school experience, I'd like to point out that there are DO schools out there that will let you repeat M1 multiple times, will let you finish rotations and continually take your boards multiple times until you pass, and then when you can't find a residency for whatever reason, has an open primary care spot that you can take because all the good students went to the MD programs and DO residencies can only take DOs. This is what happens to a bottom of the barrel, 2.0 gpa, 400 COMLEX I and II after multiple tries, medical student. Is this a laughable standard for medical education? Yes it is, but if you're that bottom of the barrel student and you just graduated that residency where you saw one patient a day for three years you're now eligible for that $130,000 a year job as a physician and now you can pay off the $600,000 in medical school debt you've accumulated because you went to medical school for 7 years. A sad day for medicine? Yes, because this "physician" will indirectly and directly commit homicide for the remainder of his/her career, BUT no one failed his/her ass out and now there's a six figure income stream to eventually pay off their enormous debt.

The majority of students will not end up like the above example. They will go to MD residencies or DO residencies and practice competent medicine at minimum. But if you end up like the example above, going to a DO school was the best decision of your life because you're a physician despite failing numerous tests and spending the better part of the decade going to medical school. Scary for the patients? Yes, because some can't tell one white coat from another and their life will be shortened by the care this physician provides. But that physician will eat well and drive a decent car in due time, provided they aren't financially *****ic.

 

[thepoopologist]

And do Carib schools offer Carib graduate only residencies? No they do not, because the equivalent bottom of the barrel Carib graduate is eating their feces from a Chinese take out box because they had to compete in the match with their ACGME counterparts and have struck out for three years in a row. Lucky for the patients, these graduates will not be murdering people in the hospitals, but they will now have to think of another way to pay off their loans.

 

[romanjetfighter]

troll or not, if he has sources, read them and defend the DO occupation!!!

btw they said in the article about the post mortem of the osteopathic medical center, stand alone osteopathic hospitals arent really economically viable anymore and so its not relevant to today's osteopathic profession as much.

 

[Ost3oclast]

This thread will explode now....

Looks like this dude did his research. Congrats man. Some D.O students will end up like the kind you mentioned. Some will go on to be successful specialists or, dare I say it, happy IM/FP docs. Who cares? When I chose this path I didnt do it so I could match rad onc at freakin Harvard for GME. Frankly, I will more than likely end up going back to my home town of 10,000 people and complete a family practice residency there. Does that mean I was a douchy candidate or I will kill people? No.

There will always be successful and unsuccessful DO/MD graduates. If DO students were causing some sort of mass extinction of their patients, the profession wouldnt exist any longer.

 

[thepoopologist]

Therefore if you want a chance at becoming a physician and you are some combination of being from California, being too undisciplined to get good grades in college, or lacked the intelligence to do well, then the smartest thing to do is to apply to an osteopathic medical school. Although I've met some intelligent people in my class, a select few who knew they wanted things like Ortho before heading into medical school and thought that they had a better chance of killing the COMLEX and being top of their class in a DO school vs a USMD school, in general, no one in their right mind who has the choice between USMD and USDO would choose USDO. Further down the line, knowing about DO residencies, whose graduates end up practicing and being compensated as physicians, no one in their right mind would choose a Carib MD over a USDO.

"Yes, my application was not sufficient to gain admission to a USMD school, so I'm going to go to an unaccredited foreign school and gamble $300,000 on the chance that I'm going to be in the top 20% in class rank and USMLE and then compete with my USMD comrades over the same spots. I'm a ****ing genius."

 

[thepoopologist]

That said, would I do it again? No. But that no is to the question, "Would I do medical school over again?" FUUUUCK NO. You crazy?

 

[thepoopologist]

troll or not, if he has sources, read them and defend the DO occupation!!!

btw they said in the article about the post mortem of the osteopathic medical center, stand alone osteopathic hospitals arent really economically viable anymore and so its not relevant to today's osteopathic profession as much.

Yes they are, because they're hospitals approached by DO schools with the offer of cheap labor. Cheap PA-equivalents (medical students) and cheap doctors (residents) to run a profit driven hospital. Minimal teaching goes on at these hospitals, they're not actually "academic" hospitals because the attendings are private attendings using the students and residents to augment their income. It's all about notes, and seeing as many patients as possible. That's how DO school ends up getting away with paying these "attendings" a certificate of appreciation and a $100 gift basket.

 

[thepoopologist]

This thread will explode now....

Looks like this dude did his research. Congrats man. Some D.O students will end up like the kind you mentioned. Some will go on to be successful specialists or, dare I say it, happy IM/FP docs. Who cares? When I chose this path I didnt do it so I could match rad onc at freakin Harvard for GME. Frankly, I will more than likely end up going back to my home town of 10,000 people and complete a family practice residency there. Does that mean I was a douchy candidate or I will kill people? No.

There will always be successful and unsuccessful DO/MD graduates. If DO students were causing some sort of mass extinction of their patients, the profession wouldnt exist any longer.

There are residents in DO programs who will kill people. They'll read my third year note and sign off on it without going into the room and assessing the patient themselves. There are many, many of them who have a mechanics knowledge of medicine versus an engineers' and throw the algorithm (X meds, X imaging) at the patient without even knowing what's going on. I've been through both scenarios and in the first one the patient ended up getting their colon resected, and in the second the patient died. The funny thing is they will all graduate and get jobs. Disclaimer: I describe all this without really knowing how terrible some ACGME residencies are, i.e. the FMG factories.

The point is regardless of what stage you're in, or what level of competence you are, you need to study and pay attention to the details so you don't become a ****ing embarrassment.

 

[GypsyHummus]

That said, would I do it again? No. But that no is to the question, "Would I do medical school over again?" FUUUUCK NO. You crazy?

Y? Why are you so jaded about the profession?

 

[docnotsopc]

I personally feel that residency matching is more dependent on the person than the school. The school will help you, but in the end, it's up to the person. At least that's how I feel about it.

This is a myth that is only true to a small degree. Everyone has to learn the same material for the board exams, but people who have attended a school with efficient and amazing instructing will have the material down better when it comes time to start studying for board exams. Also, if a school tests on things that are not related to the boards.... the students arent learning the appropriate material.

Everyone has the same resources to study board exams!

NOT everyone has the same fundamentals and core medical education before board studying. Sure its possible that everyone COULD have the same core medical education but most students study for their schools exams and cater their test studying towards what benefits them the most for their schools exams.

A schools curriculum also has a huge impact.

For example USC apparently starts presenting their students with board style questions something like 6 weeks before the normal 6 week designated board studying time. This is a HUGE HUGE advantage over students who cant start board studying until that designated time

 

[thepoopologist]

Y? Why are you so jaded about the profession?

It's not necessarily against DO schools, I just don't think medicine is suited to my personality.

 

[GypsyHummus]

It's not necessarily against DO schools, I just don't think medicine is suited to my personality.

then why did you decide to go into it? As someone who eventually wants to go into medicine, I really do like hearing all sides of medical students and physicians, from people who love their job to people who cant stand it. I just want to know why. Why medicine? Why not medicine? Why didnt you go dentistry, or engineering? Did you shadow?

 

[thepoopologist]

then why did you decide to go into it? As someone who eventually wants to go into medicine, I really do like hearing all sides of medical students and physicians, from people who love their job to people who cant stand it. I just want to know why. Why medicine? Why not medicine? Why didnt you go dentistry, or engineering? Did you shadow?

I did everything I was supposed to do as a premed. I matriculated excited about becoming a doctor. I went in with a 3.4 gpa and a 30 MCAT, which was on the higher end of the matriculating class so I figured at worst I'd be in the middle of the pack.

But these last three years have been a struggle for me. I couldn't memorize worth a damn my first two years, and the note packets I was provided were pathetic (it's about understanding as much as memorizing, but when time is short, memorizing gets you by). I really didn't feel like there was much support to help with learning the first two years. They threw me hundreds of pages of notes and I'd have a test in two weeks, that's it.

I don't think I actually understood what the hell I learned my first two years until I started third year and began slowly going over Kaplan, Pathoma, etc for my own sake. "Ahh, so this is how it all fits," I said to myself, but then in the meantime I'm dealing with insane personalities, and smacked down for the smallest details that I wouldn't know. I'd be asked assessment, plan, medications, dosing, which I now know an intern would know but not the new 3rd year they're asking, then I'd be told to round on 15 pts by myself. I'd finish after a few hours and find my residents relaxing in the resident lounge.

Then my attendings. Some I rarely saw. I was there to write notes. Some would see the patient every so often and then ask me if they'd be okay to discharge. I'd say yes and they'd discharge them without even seeing the patient. I even remember a case where I'd talked to the cardiologist and they'd told me the patient had a mild pericardial effusion that could be followed up outpatient and they were good to go from their standpoint. I relay this information to my attending, telling them to discharge, and they ****ing discharge the patient on my word. 1 week later the attending berates me about this patient. "Did you know she had a pericardial effusion? And I ****ing discharged her? That makes me liable. Jesus, I have to trust you." I had to literally go into the EMR and pull up the cardiologists note for him to believe that the cardiologist had told me they'd be following outpatient. Not even an apology afterward, or the fact that I was a ****ing third year medical student. The attendings bitched so much about money even though they had the nicest cars and owned multiple homes. They'd bitch about orders not being carried out even though their writing was atrocious and when the nurse would call for clarification they'd already be out of the hospital. They were the biggest ****ing babies I've ever met and if I strangle their ****ing throats without going to jail I would.

Then the patients. I worked in an underserved hospital. The most ghetto, demanding patients I've ever worked with. I'd say 80% were reasonable people dealing with unreasonable circumstances, but 20% is a huge part of the population to deal with people screaming at you for opioids and ****ting in their beds and acting like animals. I worked in a hospital where the more patients an attending had on his census, the more money they made. And these were private attending with residents and medical students at their disposal, so a one day census would amount to 50-60 patients on average, sometimes going north of 80.


That was 95% of my medical school experience. The more pleasant parts I liked were outpatient clinics where I could educate patients on prevention and the psychiatry wards. I liked finding something on physical exam and seeing I was right on imaging, or going through an A/P with an attending and having them actually agree with me. I like teaching third years what little that I do know as a fourth year.

I just don't think it was worth it for me. I feel like I could've pursued other more interesting avenues that would've been more fulfilling but I didn't have the nutsack to do it because it didn't guarantee $200,000/year after 7+ years of training. Well I've learned my ****ing lesson.

Look, there are people who thrive in this environment, I just happened to not be one of them.

 

[thepoopologist]

My goals now are to ****ing match into psychiatry. A nice, relaxed program where I can see enough patients, master general psych, throw my medicine knowledge in the garbage, and ****ing leave after 8 hours of work to do whatever, like workout and read for pleasure. That sounds like ****ing paradise at this point.

 

[GunnerBGone]

The point is regardless of what stage you're in, or what level of competence you are, you need to study and pay attention to the details so you don't become a ****ing embarrassment.

Poopy, stop scaring the pre-meds. You know we're not gonna listen.

Gonna screw up, and get yourself sued, like the guy from PCOM a while back.
Get a massage or buy a cat and forget to feed it.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I did everything I was supposed to do as a premed. I matriculated excited about becoming a doctor. I went in with a 3.4 gpa and a 30 MCAT, which was on the higher end of the matriculating class so I figured at worst I'd be in the middle of the pack.

But these last three years have been a struggle for me. I couldn't memorize worth a damn my first two years, and the note packets I was provided were pathetic (it's about understanding as much as memorizing, but when time is short, memorizing gets you by). I really didn't feel like there was much support to help with learning the first two years. They threw me hundreds of pages of notes and I'd have a test in two weeks, that's it.

I don't think I actually understood what the hell I learned my first two years until I started third year and began slowly going over Kaplan, Pathoma, etc for my own sake. "Ahh, so this is how it all fits," I said to myself, but then in the meantime I'm dealing with insane personalities, and smacked down for the smallest details that I wouldn't know. I'd be asked assessment, plan, medications, dosing, which I now know an intern would know but not the new 3rd year they're asking, then I'd be told to round on 15 pts by myself. I'd finish after a few hours and find my residents relaxing in the resident lounge.

Then my attendings. Some I rarely saw. I was there to write notes. Some would see the patient every so often and then ask me if they'd be okay to discharge. I'd say yes and they'd discharge them without even seeing the patient. I even remember a case where I'd talked to the cardiologist and they'd told me the patient had a mild pericardial effusion that could be followed up outpatient and they were good to go from their standpoint. I relay this information to my attending, telling them to discharge, and they ****ing discharge the patient on my word. 1 week later the attending berates me about this patient. "Did you know she had a pericardial effusion? And I ****ing discharged her? That makes me liable. Jesus, I have to trust you." I had to literally go into the EMR and pull up the cardiologists note for him to believe that the cardiologist had told me they'd be following outpatient. Not even an apology afterward, or the fact that I was a ****ing third year medical student. The attendings bitched so much about money even though they had the nicest cars and owned multiple homes. They'd bitch about orders not being carried out even though their writing was atrocious and when the nurse would call for clarification they'd already be out of the hospital. They were the biggest ****ing babies I've ever met and if I strangle their ****ing throats without going to jail I would.

Then the patients. I worked in an underserved hospital. The most ghetto, demanding patients I've ever worked with. I'd say 80% were reasonable people dealing with unreasonable circumstances, but 20% is a huge part of the population to deal with people screaming at you for opioids and ****ting in their beds and acting like animals. I worked in a hospital where the more patients an attending had on his census, the more money they made. And these were private attending with residents and medical students at their disposal, so a one day census would amount to 50-60 patients on average, sometimes going north of 80.


That was 95% of my medical school experience. The more pleasant parts I liked were outpatient clinics where I could educate patients on prevention and the psychiatry wards. I liked finding something on physical exam and seeing I was right on imaging, or going through an A/P with an attending and having them actually agree with me. I like teaching third years what little that I do know as a fourth year.

I just don't think it was worth it for me. I feel like I could've pursued other more interesting avenues that would've been more fulfilling but I didn't have the nutsack to do it because it didn't guarantee $200,000/year after 7+ years of training. Well I've learned my ****ing lesson.

Look, there are people who thrive in this environment, I just happened to not be one of them.

Thank you for your input. Its refreshing to see all point of views. All the premeds are starry eyed, gun ho and its nice to hear from someone actually living through it.

But I have to ask, is OMM really as bad as all the DO students say it is, like time suck wise?

I am sure that once you are an attending making 200k, your outlook will change considerably.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Thank you for your input. Its refreshing to see all point of views. All the premeds are starry eyed, gun ho and its nice to hear from someone actually living through it.

But I have to ask, is OMM really as bad as all the DO students say it is, like time suck wise?

I am sure that once you are an attending making 200k, your outlook will change considerably.

To answer your question about OMM, no. But this also varies by school. If you go to the osteo forum, there is a thread devoted to spelling out how much time per week is alotted for OPP/OMM. I have one hour of lecture and 2 hours of lab per week, that's it. I hardly call that a "time suck." The stuff is not hard to learn. Some of it is fun, other parts are not. I'm only a first year, but this has been my impression thus far.

 

[cliquesh]

As a 4th year DO who recently applied to only acgme programs, i think, at least from my experience, that the DO bashing is exaggerated on SDN.I have gotten interviews from good programs, but none from the "best" programs, and I think that's pretty standard for any medical student. Being a DO isn't a huge deal.

 

[NeuroLAX]

As a 4th year DO who recently applied to only acgme programs, i think, at least from my experience, that the DO bashing is exaggerated on SDN.I have gotten interviews from good programs, but none from the "best" programs, and I think that's pretty standard for any medical student. Being a DO isn't a huge deal.

I definitely agree, and this is precisely the attitude I'm carrying right now. I think it is unrealistic to start medical school with the preconceived notion that one is going to match into THE top programs. It's a great fantasy, but very few people get this opportunity.

 

[Mbeas]

But I have to ask, is OMM really as bad as all the DO students say it is, like time suck wise?

No. Go in with an open mind. It's actually refreshing to do something other than study.

 

[thepoopologist]

No. Go in with an open mind. It's actually refreshing to do something other than study.

I enjoyed it my first two years as well, and I was taught a lot of very good diagnostic techniques, which you can find in Bates much less an OMM manual. But every time I see it used on a pt for reasons other than a musculoskeletal etiology I cringe.

I used to work in a mental health clinic that had residents from a top ACGME program (mostly UCSF/Harvard grads), and they had it easy. Their intern year they only had to do 8 hours a day for 4 days. Then in residency they barely worked at all. They saw only 2-3 clients every hour with many cancellations all the time, and they had 1 hour lunch breaks.

Awesome, I hope I have that work schedule as a resident.

 

[Mehd School]

I used to work in a mental health clinic that had residents from a top ACGME program (mostly UCSF/Harvard grads), and they had it easy. Their intern year they only had to do 8 hours a day for 4 days. Then in residency they barely worked at all. They saw only 2-3 clients every hour with many cancellations all the time, and they had 1 hour lunch breaks.

This sounds pretty typical for mental health clinics in particular.

I've worked in three.

 

[Dharma]

I used to work in a mental health clinic that had residents from a top ACGME program (mostly UCSF/Harvard grads), and they had it easy. Their intern year they only had to do 8 hours a day for 4 days. Then in residency they barely worked at all. They saw only 2-3 clients every hour with many cancellations all the time, and they had 1 hour lunch breaks.

Go read up on the Psych forums. Laid back residencies in psych are certainly not the norm. 65+ hour weeks in the better clinical programs are not unusual at all (not to mention call, ER shifts, ect). Good training will usually require exposure to various pathologies and with somewhat significant volume at that. You won't get that from sitting on your ischium all day.

As an aside, those you go into psych with a primary driving force as lifestyle, usually end up quite miserable according to many veterans in the field. Not that lifestyle isn't a plus, but it only is if one is a good fit (i.e. enjoys) the field for the work itself. The same goes for any field, but psych especially. That said, I don't know too much, being a lowly MS1... give the psych forums a going-over and ask some questions over there if interested in the field.

BTW did not read the entire thread here. Can SDN go a week without some MD vs DO thread? Ridiculous.

 

[SpecterGT260]

OP, is money limiting you from applying to both?

 

[Blowflu]

Blah blah blah

A few things from someone who's currently attending LECOM-Bradenton

1.) Can't get a good residency? Funny, the D.O. who wrote me a letter of rec for LECOM-B was the chief resident of internal medicine at Mayo Clinic Florida. He just started a fellowship there in their Heme-Onc department too. I've also run into other graduates of my school who are working in some pretty nice hospitals and are doing just fine.

2.) The notion of 'if you go there, you'll never be a good doctor' is Grade A bull****. Caribbean MD, D.O., bottom-tier MD, it really doesn't matter. There is an order (MD > DO > Carib MD), but that type of thinking is a completely Pre-Med attitude. I'm not going to bore everyone here with more examples and personal anecdotes of super-successful physicians who went to the Guadalajara School of Medicine, but they exist.

3.) Funny how darn near everything you've cited is at least 6 years old. Osteopathic medicine almost died off completely in the 60's-70's, so yes the standards have not quite matched programs that have been around for 50-60 years. They're still fine though. You can still enlist in the military as a DO for a scholarship and/or service as an attending. You can practice in the US and internationally (~50 countries and growing IIRC). DO = MD when it comes to what you're allowed to do medically.


To the OP - don't make the mistakes that I did. I had great EC's, a better GPA (3.73c, 3.5s) and around the same MCAT (29), but I really wish I would have applied DO sooner.

To JGimpel - You have some points, but you don't sound like you REALLY looked into things before you jumped into med school.