MD vs. DO schools

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serenade said:
Genuinely speaking your gpa/mcat is too low for USMD schools and for even DO schools you're below average. However you have the potential to get into a good DO school if you apply early enough next year.

As a DO your somewhat disadvantaged in the ACGME match. But you make up for it with the AOA match.
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This is not true. Any student, be it MD or DO has the same chances for getting into any program as long as they apply themselves and do well on boards. I know a lot of DOs that matched into very competitive MD programs.
 
EMT2ER-DOC said:
This is not true. Any student, be it MD or DO has the same chances for getting into any program as long as they apply themselves and do well on boards. I know a lot of DOs that matched into very competitive MD programs.
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According to the PD survey, going to an allopathic school is something that matters. It is correlated with specialty competitiveness (I.e. matters less for FM more for plastics) but its there. Getting in is still certainly possible for anyone but the chances are somewhat skewed in favor of MD
 
This is actually turned out to be a constructive MD vs DO thread.
 
EMT2ER-DOC said:
This is not true. Any student, be it MD or DO has the same chances for getting into any program as long as they apply themselves and do well on boards. I know a lot of DOs that matched into very competitive MD programs.
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This is not completely true.

Blowflu said:
A few things from someone who's currently attending LECOM-Bradenton

1.) Can't get a good residency? Funny, the D.O. who wrote me a letter of rec for LECOM-B was the chief resident of internal medicine at Mayo Clinic Florida. He just started a fellowship there in their Heme-Onc department too. I've also run into other graduates of my school who are working in some pretty nice hospitals and are doing just fine.
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That is not a very good medicine program... sorry.

2.) The notion of 'if you go there, you'll never be a good doctor' is Grade A bull****. Caribbean MD, D.O., bottom-tier MD, it really doesn't matter. There is an order (MD > DO > Carib MD), but that type of thinking is a completely Pre-Med attitude. I'm not going to bore everyone here with more examples and personal anecdotes of super-successful physicians who went to the Guadalajara School of Medicine, but they exist.
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I hate to say that it actually does matter in terms of getting strong residency and therefore a strong fellowship. Anecdotes do not equal data.

3.) Osteopathic medicine almost died off completely in the 60's-70's, so yes the standards have not quite matched programs that have been around for 50-60 years. They're still fine though. You can still enlist in the military as a DO for a scholarship and/or service as an attending. You can practice in the US and internationally (~50 countries and growing IIRC). DO = MD when it comes to what you're allowed to do medically.
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What you are allowed to do legally and what you can get for residency are 2 separate things. While DOs have made inroads in a few specialties (anesthesia and EM are notable examples) there are a slew of residencies that they have not (basically all surgical specialties and strong IM programs). There is also a big distinction between DO and ACGME residencies which is why most DOs opt to do ACGME residencies.
 
Instatewaiter said:
This is not completely true.



That is not a very good medicine program... sorry.



I hate to say that it actually does matter in terms of getting strong residency and therefore a strong fellowship. Anecdotes do not equal data.



What you are allowed to do legally and what you can get for residency are 2 separate things. While DOs have made inroads in a few specialties (anesthesia and EM are notable examples) there are a slew of residencies that they have not (basically all surgical specialties and strong IM programs). There is also a big distinction between DO and ACGME residencies which is why most DOs opt to do ACGME residencies.
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[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc[/YOUTUBE]

ugh, i feel like a jackass for getting roped into these awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful forums, but as a DO graduate at arguably one of the most competitive surgical residencies in this country (toot, toot), i feel obligated to chime in.

my classmates nor i have experienced any sort of discrimination as DO graduates in landing an ACGME residency. i have received interviews at plenty of academic and community ACGME residency programs, and i have received plenty of positive comments from ACGME PDs and residency selection committees. while this is only my anecdote, there is not any data that completely supports the assumption that DOs are discriminated against in the ACGME match. let me repeat this, there is absolutely NO data that supports the claim that DOs are discriminated against in the ACGME match. in order for this assumption to be proven true, one would need access to the following information:

-how many DOs applied to a particular ACGME residency
-these DOs board scores/grades/ECs/research/LORs
-how many MDs applied to a particular ACGME residency
-these MDs board scores/grades/ECs/research/LORs
-whether or not the applicant (MD or DO) is an *******

unfortunately, NONE of this information is available 🙁...and as special little medical scientists🙂, we all know it is a big no-no to make such a large generalization without data, numbers, statistics, the BIG CHEESE! speculate as you wish, but at least leave a disclaimer in your posts!

also, Instatewaiter (?), would you please produce the data that highlights the distinctions between ACGME residencies and "DO" residencies (i thought you meant to type AOA--but seeing as how much time you lurk pre-osteo, you must know the difference by now :laugh:). while the SDN dorks may think ACGME>>>>>>>>>AOA (lyk OMG!!1), the truth is there is no DATA to support this claim...only ANECDOTES. i chose ACGME for my research and location (serious mamma's boy😍), and i have classmates who passed up EM at JHU, ortho at CC-OH, and gas at UMich. the main reason for choosing ACGME at my school was for location.


with that being said, let's just go along with this assumption and say that the ACGME does in fact discriminate against osteopathic students:

consider MGH's IM residency (very, very competitive). they offer ~40 categorical residency positions per year. there are ~17,000 MD graduates per year.

(40/17,000) * 100 = 0.2

by ITSELF, the MD degree has increased your odds of matching by 0.2% :scared: . if you ask me, i would match rather have the benefit of AOA residencies over this 0.2%.


now, premedical students and Instatewaiter, listen to me, and listen to me good:

-do not rely on this website for making a decision to attend a certain medical school.
-go to a school (MD/DO) that YOU like...not the ignorant.
-the majority of us sane folk of medicine have never heard of this website nor do we rely on it for making career decisions.
-do well on your boards, rock rotations, keep up your grades, and find time for research 🙂love🙂; you will match anywhere you want if you have the drive to do so. be in that 0.2%👍👍👍:thumb up:!


message me if you guys have any questions although i may not get back to you right away because of my current rotation. oh how i wish just ONE patient would refuse to see me because of the DO on my coat--i need a break:laugh:
 
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HopDoctor said:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc[/YOUTUBE]

ugh, i feel like a jackass for getting roped into these awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful forums, but as a DO graduate at arguably one of the most competitive surgical residencies in this country (toot, toot), i feel obligated to chime in.

my classmates nor i have experienced any sort of discrimination as DO graduates in landing an ACGME residency. i have received interviews at plenty of academic and community ACGME residency programs, and i have received plenty of positive comments from ACGME PDs and residency selection committees. while this is only my anecdote, there is not any data that completely supports the assumption that DOs are discriminated against in the ACGME match. let me repeat this, there is absolutely NO data that supports the claim that DOs are discriminated against in the ACGME match. in order for this assumption to be proven true, one would need access to the following information:

-how many DOs applied to a particular ACGME residency
-these DOs board scores/grades/ECs/research/LORs
-how many MDs applied to a particular ACGME residency
-these MDs board scores/grades/ECs/research/LORs
-whether or not the applicant (MD or DO) is an *******

unfortunately, NONE of this information is available 🙁...and as special little medical scientists🙂, we all know it is a big no-no to make such a large generalization without data, numbers, statistics, the BIG CHEESE! speculate as you wish, but at least leave a disclaimer in your posts!

also, Instatewaiter (?), would you please produce the data that highlights the distinctions between ACGME residencies and "DO" residencies (i thought you meant to type AOA--but seeing as how much time you lurk pre-osteo, you must know the difference by now :laugh:). while the SDN dorks may think ACGME>>>>>>>>>AOA (lyk OMG!!1), the truth is there is no DATA to support this claim...only ANECDOTES. i chose ACGME for my research and location (serious mamma's boy😍), and i have classmates who passed up EM at JHU, ortho at CC-OH, and gas at UMich. the main reason for choosing ACGME at my school was for location.


with that being said, let's just go along with this assumption and say that the ACGME does in fact discriminate against osteopathic students:

consider MGH's IM residency (very, very competitive). they offer ~40 categorical residency positions per year. there are ~17,000 MD graduates per year.

(40/17,000) * 100 = 0.2

by ITSELF, the MD degree has increased your odds of matching by 0.2% :scared: . if you ask me, i would match rather have the benefit of AOA residencies over this 0.2%.


now, premedical students and Instatewaiter, listen to me, and listen to me good:

-do not rely on this website for making a decision to attend a certain medical school.
-go to a school (MD/DO) that YOU like...not the ignorant.
-the majority of us sane folk of medicine have never heard of this website nor do we rely on it for making career decisions.
-do well on your boards, rock rotations, keep up your grades, and find time for research 🙂love🙂; you will match anywhere you want if you have the drive to do so. be in that 0.2%👍👍👍:thumb up:!


message me if you guys have any questions although i may not get back to you right away because of my current rotation. oh how i wish just ONE patient would refuse to see me because of the DO on my coat--i need a break:laugh:
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^ Win
 
HopDoctor said:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc[/YOUTUBE]

ugh, i feel like a jackass for getting roped into these awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful, awful forums, but as a DO graduate at arguably one of the most competitive surgical residencies in this country (toot, toot), i feel obligated to chime in.

my classmates nor i have experienced any sort of discrimination as DO graduates in landing an ACGME residency. i have received interviews at plenty of academic and community ACGME residency programs, and i have received plenty of positive comments from ACGME PDs and residency selection committees. while this is only my anecdote, there is not any data that completely supports the assumption that DOs are discriminated against in the ACGME match. let me repeat this, there is absolutely NO data that supports the claim that DOs are discriminated against in the ACGME match. in order for this assumption to be proven true, one would need access to the following information:

-how many DOs applied to a particular ACGME residency
-these DOs board scores/grades/ECs/research/LORs
-how many MDs applied to a particular ACGME residency
-these MDs board scores/grades/ECs/research/LORs
-whether or not the applicant (MD or DO) is an *******

unfortunately, NONE of this information is available...and as special little medical scientists🙂, we all know it is a big no-no to make such a large generalization without data, numbers, statistics, the BIG CHEESE! speculate as you wish, but at least leave a disclaimer in your posts!

also, Instatewaiter (?), would you please produce the data that highlights the distinctions between ACGME residencies and "DO" residencies (i thought you meant to type AOA--but seeing as how much time you lurk pre-osteo, you must know the difference by now :laugh:). while the SDN dorks may think ACGME>>>>>>>>>AOA (lyk OMG!!1), the truth is there is no DATA to support this claim...only ANECDOTES. i chose ACGME for my research and location (serious mamma's boy😍), and i have classmates who passed up EM at JHU, ortho at CC-OH, and gas at UMich. the main reason for choosing ACGME at my school was for location.


with that being said, let's just go along with this assumption and say that the ACGME does in fact discriminate against osteopathic students:

consider MGH's IM residency (very, very competitive). they offer ~40 categorical residency positions per year. there are ~17,000 MD graduates per year.

(40/17,000) * 100 = 0.2

by ITSELF, the MD degree has increased your odds of matching by 0.2% :scared: . if you ask me, i would match rather have the benefit of AOA residencies over this 0.2%.


now, premedical students and Instatewaiter, listen to me, and listen to me good:

-do not rely on this website for making a decision to attend a certain medical school.
-go to a school (MD/DO) that YOU like...not the ignorant.
-the majority of us sane folk of medicine have never heard of this website nor do we rely on it for making career decisions.
-do well on your boards, rock rotations, keep up your grades, and find time for research; you will match anywhere you want if you have the drive to do so. be in that 0.2%👍👍👍:thumb up:!


message me if you guys have any questions although i may not get back to you right away because of my current rotation. oh how i wish just ONE patient would refuse to see me because of the DO on my coat--i need a break:laugh:
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speechless-gif.1984

tumblr_mao08lnEOr1rrpsd7.gif
 
Dharma said:
Go read up on the Psych forums. Laid back residencies in psych are certainly not the norm. 65+ hour weeks in the better clinical programs are not unusual at all (not to mention call, ER shifts, ect). Good training will usually require exposure to various pathologies and with somewhat significant volume at that. You won't get that from sitting on your ischium all day.

As an aside, those you go into psych with a primary driving force as lifestyle, usually end up quite miserable according to many veterans in the field. Not that lifestyle isn't a plus, but it only is if one is a good fit (i.e. enjoys) the field for the work itself. The same goes for any field, but psych especially. That said, I don't know too much, being a lowly MS1... give the psych forums a going-over and ask some questions over there if interested in the field.

BTW did not read the entire thread here. Can SDN go a week without some MD vs DO thread? Ridiculous.
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I wasn't trying to make the case that Psych was always (or even generally speaking) easy. I'm sure there are very hard psychiatry residencies out there, but there are some very laid back ones too. I have heard there are some like that for family medicine as well.
 
Hop, your math there is completely irrelevant...... 0.2%? That isn't an increased chance. I hope you were joking
 
IM will be replaced by PA/NP in a few years, anyway, so it doesn't really matter.



























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I'm pretty sure I got instantly rejected from some programs simply because I am a DO. Mostly ivy league programs, though.
 
HopDoctor said:
1) there is absolutely NO data that supports the claim that DOs are discriminated against in the ACGME match.
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Hopdoctor is right- we don't have all the data.

Let's take some match data and let's use arguably the best DO school, PCOM. PCOM is a good option because Pennsylvania is pretty DO friendly and Philadelphia is an attractive enough city that a large majority of people would try to stay and PCOM is regarded as a very solid DO school. It is a good microchasm. If we are going by the assumption that there is NO discrimination we would expect that a bunch of people would match to The Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania which is literally a short drive away from PCOM. HUP is the strongest clinically and it is the strongest research wise basically across the board. There were 240+ in the 2012 class at PCOM. How many residents from PCOM did HUP take across the board in 4 years (roughly 800-1000 people). 50? 100?

Answer ZERO. None. Nada. Not a single match to HUP in ANY SPECIALTY.

How about the quality of their internal medicine matches over the last 4 years. 4 years, not a single top 20 program... interesting.

To compare, let's take what many on SDN would consider a low-tier MD school to compare (VCU) which is hundreds of miles away from Philadelphia. They do have a match to HUP in that match list and have a ton of notable IM matches in just 1 year. IM- MGH, UTSW, Vandy, Yale, Cornell

So to sum it up, in 1 year, a low-tier MD school (which is hundreds of miles from philadelphia) has more matchest to HUP than PCOM has in 4 years despite being in the same city. It also has many, mnay more solid matches to top IM programs... just to name a few. No we don't have all the data, but it is hard to fight with the data we have.


Here are the match lists for PCOM for the last 4 years
2009 http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_2009_phl.html
2010 http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_2010_phl.html
2011 http://www.pcom.edu/Student_Life/Student_Affairs_Main/Match_List_2011_Phil.pdf
2012 http://www.pcom.edu/student_life/student_affairs_main/match_2012_phl.html

2011 VCU match: http://medschool.vcu.edu/stories/matchday/matchresults2011.html
 
Oh and it's not just MGH IM. For such an "uncompetitive" residency like IM, the top is largely closed to DOs. If there were no DO bias, then this would not be the case.


Hopkins,The brigham, MGH, Columbia, Penn, Duke, Michigan, University of Washington, Wash U, Stanford, and UCLA do not have a single DO in any of their years... and the list goes on. Let's not act like there is no bias.
 
AspiringDO1 said:
I think that is what he/she was trying to say.
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it appears that s/he was comparing spots/total # graduates to look at probability of matching which is inappropriate. Sure, if all MDs applied, there is a 0.2% chance of matching. But s/he used the word "increased". This is an infinite increase in probability over matching as a DO. I am not trying to imply that DOs are crappy or whatever, just saying that the implication in the math is not what was stated. In order to look at how your odds are affected, you need to actually compare the two degrees and not simply look at something that is a low probability for 1 and conclude that the difference is negligible. It needs to be an "of those who applied" analysis. Per the reasoning used in that equation there is nothing stopping us from saying "well, there are 40 spots and 6 billion people in the world so....." and that is just silly.
I dont know if that program has closed doors to DOs or not, but if they do, any probability, even a minuscule one for MDs is an infinite increase in chance by definition. Just have to remember what math means when you try to use it :shrug:
 
Instatewaiter said:
Oh and it's not just MGH IM. For such an "uncompetitive" residency like IM, the top is largely closed to DOs. If there were no DO bias, then this would not be the case.


Hopkins,The brigham, MGH, Columbia, Penn, Duke, Michigan, University of Washington, Wash U, Stanford, and UCLA do not have a single DO in any of their years... and the list goes on. Let's not act like there is no bias.
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Wait, so is UCLA - Olive view different? Western matched 3 or 4 in IM there within the past 2 years. Graduates from there also match at lot of good places, according to their recent match lists. I understand that there's obviously a bias, but as a Californian likely attending an osteopathic school, I was encouraged that there didn't seem to be any impenetrable obstacles in CA.
 
ModernAlchemist said:
Wait, so is UCLA - Olive view different? Western matched 3 or 4 in IM there within the past 2 years. Graduates from there also match at lot of good places, according to their recent match lists. I understand that there's obviously a bias, but as a Californian likely attending an osteopathic school, I was encouraged that there didn't seem to be any impenetrable obstacles in CA.
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I think when people on here speak of UCLA without the "-" they're talking about Reagan.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
it appears that s/he was comparing spots/total # graduates to look at probability of matching which is inappropriate. Sure, if all MDs applied, there is a 0.2% chance of matching. But s/he used the word "increased". This is an infinite increase in probability over matching as a DO. I am not trying to imply that DOs are crappy or whatever, just saying that the implication in the math is not what was stated. In order to look at how your odds are affected, you need to actually compare the two degrees and not simply look at something that is a low probability for 1 and conclude that the difference is negligible. It needs to be an "of those who applied" analysis. Per the reasoning used in that equation there is nothing stopping us from saying "well, there are 40 spots and 6 billion people in the world so....." and that is just silly.
I dont know if that program has closed doors to DOs or not, but if they do, any probability, even a minuscule one for MDs is an infinite increase in chance by definition. Just have to remember what math means when you try to use it :shrug:
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Yea, I see what you are saying. There are obviously board scores and other things to consider.

I think the point Hop was just trying to point out the difference between MD and DO for that particular program. Obviously not all MD grads are applying to MGH...but because we simply do not know how many DOs and MDs are applying, it's very difficult to determine if there is any bias toward MDs and DOs in the match.

I think Hop was trying to indicate the effect that the MD degree ALONE has on matching competitive residencies. By assuming all MDs want MGH, Hop was making the same misconception that many others make that all DOs want MGH or other super competitive residencies.

Not really sure what I think of it all. I do not think it is wise to depend on match lists for this sort of thing, however. I do think there is a lot of unfair speculation on this topic though. I'm in the camp that board scores and LORs get you where you want to go.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Oh and it's not just MGH IM. For such an "uncompetitive" residency like IM, the top is largely closed to DOs. If there were no DO bias, then this would not be the case.


Hopkins,The brigham, MGH, Columbia, Penn, Duke, Michigan, University of Washington, Wash U, Stanford, and UCLA do not have a single DO in any of their years... and the list goes on. Let's not act like there is no bias.
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even if there is a bias at the top programs, the number of medical students they take is so small it becomes insignificant for the vast majority of DO students
 
ModernAlchemist said:
Wait, so is UCLA - Olive view different? Western matched 3 or 4 in IM there within the past 2 years. Graduates from there also match at lot of good places, according to their recent match lists. I understand that there's obviously a bias, but as a Californian likely attending an osteopathic school, I was encouraged that there didn't seem to be any impenetrable obstacles in CA.
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Yes. UCLA and it's hospital branches are completely separate residency programs/matches for most specialties.

Btw I pretty much agree with instatewaiter. There are going to be a handful of DOs who are able to break in to great ACGME programs, but these guys are typically cream of the crop (Step scores, grades, research, etc). However, in general, there is large bias against DOs in top tier academic programs in most specialties. Anesthesiology is probably one of the more DO friendly subspecialties, however there has never been a DO at my program and many of the other top programs. I'm sure there are DOs who had some stellar USMLE Step 1 or 2 scores, however got screened out just because they're osteopaths. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, however that's just how it is right now.
 
AspiringDO1 said:
Yea, I see what you are saying. There are obviously board scores and other things to consider.

I think the point Hop was just trying to point out the difference between MD and DO for that particular program. Obviously not all MD grads are applying to MGH...but because we simply do not know how many DOs and MDs are applying, it's very difficult to determine if there is any bias toward MDs and DOs in the match.

I think Hop was trying to indicate the effect that the MD degree ALONE has on matching competitive residencies. By assuming all MDs want MGH, Hop was making the same misconception that many others make that all DOs want MGH or other super competitive residencies.

Not really sure what I think of it all. I do not think it is wise to depend on match lists for this sort of thing, however. I do think there is a lot of unfair speculation on this topic though. I'm in the camp that board scores and LORs get you where you want to go.
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it isnt really that hard to figure out..... within the ACGME there is some bias. It is explicitly stated in the PD survey.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Anesthesiology (n= 88 programs) 74% listed "Graduate of US allopathic medical school" as a determining criteria. i.e. you habe a ~25% chance of that not being held against you as a DO applying, give or take.

EM (n= 98) - similar

FM n=250 - only 62% responded as thing being a consideration.

This doesnt mean it is a vital consideration in any case, but it means they think about it. IMO the only valid interpretation of this is that a DO must be a stronger applicant on average for such programs than an MD. How much stronger? No effing clue. But when people start looking at the numbers and say "well you only had a 0.2% chance of matching into harvard IM anyways, so obviously no substantial bias exists" it is important to remember what is being compared. Another thing to keep in mind is that a highly listed criteria doesn't mean that the programs only take stellar scores in these areas. But obviously if it is something they look at, there is a system of greater than or less than that is employed.

For perspective, more gen surg programs listed Allopathic graduation as a factor than they did for Deans letter. If you go look at the "email the ACGME now!" thread, you will see many DOs posting about the relative difficulty in matching ACGME surgery as a DO. There is honestly only 2 possible explanations for this. either 1) DOs are not as strong of applicants as MDs or 2) there is a bias against DOs. There isn't a 3rd option, really, and I suspect most people will rage against option 1, but this is a situation where we cant just invent a new interpretation to protect everybody's egos.
 
ModernAlchemist said:
Wait, so is UCLA - Olive view different? Western matched 3 or 4 in IM there within the past 2 years. Graduates from there also match at lot of good places, according to their recent match lists. I understand that there's obviously a bias, but as a Californian likely attending an osteopathic school, I was encouraged that there didn't seem to be any impenetrable obstacles in CA.
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Each of the big programs (and many others) have satellite programs. These tend to be community programs with their own SEPARATE residency program that is linked to the main program in name and nowhere near as good (not even in the same tier). So the Mayo-Florita and Mayo-Arizona programs are not very good programs for training. Oliveview is similar.

There are a few exceptions- Bayview is a notable example (they have taken DOs from PCOM and NYCOM in the past). It is a community program but intertwined in some ways with hopkins. So while it is not in the same tier, it is still a solid program. UCLA harbor is apparently another but I know next to nothing about this program.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Each of the big programs (and many others) have satellite programs. These tend to be community programs with their own SEPARATE residency program that is linked to the main program in name and nowhere near as good (not even in the same tier). So the Mayo-Florita and Mayo-Arizona programs are not very good programs for training. Oliveview is similar.

There are a few exceptions- Bayview is a notable example (they have taken DOs from PCOM and NYCOM in the past). It is a community program but intertwined in some ways with hopkins. So while it is not in the same tier, it is still a solid program. UCLA harbor is apparently another but I know next to nothing about this program.
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What about strong state flagship programs? Like Florida State, University of Iowa, U Mich, Indiana University, Ohio state, etc. Are those programs essentially "closed" off to DO students?
 
Residency? I don't think it matters what state you live in!
You're still called doctor. It is "DOCTOR of Orthopedics" for a reason, *****s.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
it isnt really that hard to figure out..... within the ACGME there is some bias. It is explicitly stated in the PD survey.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Anesthesiology (n= 88 programs) 74% listed "Graduate of US allopathic medical school" as a determining criteria. i.e. you habe a ~25% chance of that not being held against you as a DO applying, give or take.

EM (n= 98) - similar

FM n=250 - only 62% responded as thing being a consideration.

This doesnt mean it is a vital consideration in any case, but it means they think about it. IMO the only valid interpretation of this is that a DO must be a stronger applicant on average for such programs than an MD. How much stronger? No effing clue. But when people start looking at the numbers and say "well you only had a 0.2% chance of matching into harvard IM anyways, so obviously no substantial bias exists" it is important to remember what is being compared. Another thing to keep in mind is that a highly listed criteria doesn't mean that the programs only take stellar scores in these areas. But obviously if it is something they look at, there is a system of greater than or less than that is employed.

For perspective, more gen surg programs listed Allopathic graduation as a factor than they did for Deans letter. If you go look at the "email the ACGME now!" thread, you will see many DOs posting about the relative difficulty in matching ACGME surgery as a DO. There is honestly only 2 possible explanations for this. either 1) DOs are not as strong of applicants as MDs or 2) there is a bias against DOs. There isn't a 3rd option, really, and I suspect most people will rage against option 1, but this is a situation where we cant just invent a new interpretation to protect everybody's egos.
Click to expand...

Having gone through the MD match this spring for anesthesiology I can relate an anecdote. Yes, I realize the n=1 that people instinctively respond, but don't really care. Residency programs don't interview statistics, they interview applicants. Anyway...

At one interview I was asked if I knew I wanted to do anesthesiology before I applied to med school. I think I told her it was one of my top interests going in, which was true. She then said well did you know it would be harder as a DO to match? I forget what I told her at that point. Anecdotal, sure, but the bias is there. Most people aren't going to actually say to your face that you are at a disadvantage.

There were other experiences along the way but I'll save them for another time.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
For perspective, more gen surg programs listed Allopathic graduation as a factor than they did for Deans letter. If you go look at the "email the ACGME now!" thread, you will see many DOs posting about the relative difficulty in matching ACGME surgery as a DO. There is honestly only 2 possible explanations for this. either 1) DOs are not as strong of applicants as MDs or 2) there is a bias against DOs. There isn't a 3rd option, really, and I suspect most people will rage against option 1, but this is a situation where we cant just invent a new interpretation to protect everybody's egos.
Click to expand...

I see it like this: if people complain that PAs/NPs might take over family practice, then they shouldn't complain about MDs trying to hold onto surgery.

That being said...I'd better get a d@mn surgery match.
 
I've watched enough Real Life Trauma to know the difference. The Discovery channel doesn't lie, those are real people.
n=my cable bill
 
GunnerBGone said:
I see it like this: if people complain that PAs/NPs might take over family practice, then they shouldn't complain about MDs trying to hold onto surgery.

That being said...I'd better get a d@mn surgery match.
Click to expand...
Im not following.... it isnt that MDs are trying to hold onto surgery. ACGME residencies are simply harder to match into as DO. Surg was an example. The relative level of anti-DO bias seems to vary with relative level of competition for the specialty. Just reference the PD survey I posted.

IDBasco said:
Having gone through the MD match this spring for anesthesiology I can relate an anecdote. Yes, I realize the n=1 that people instinctively respond, but don't really care. Residency programs don't interview statistics, they interview applicants. Anyway...

At one interview I was asked if I knew I wanted to do anesthesiology before I applied to med school. I think I told her it was one of my top interests going in, which was true. She then said well did you know it would be harder as a DO to match? I forget what I told her at that point. Anecdotal, sure, but the bias is there. Most people aren't going to actually say to your face that you are at a disadvantage.

There were other experiences along the way but I'll save them for another time.
Click to expand...
right. the PD survey asks questions about what they consider when deciding to extend an invite. I don't think it is for ranking applicants. Once you get the invite, I believe your chances are as good as anyone elses and it comes down to who you are.
 
GypsyHummus said:
What about strong state flagship programs? Like Florida State, University of Iowa, U Mich, Indiana University, Ohio state, etc. Are those programs essentially "closed" off to DO students?
Click to expand...

It really depends on the strength of the program. Michigan is a top tier program so it would be very, very hard to match as a DO.

Iowa is a decently regarded program but because of it's location (you know, in iowa) it is easier to match into than other programs. So they do have DOs. I don't feel like googling indiana, ohio state or florida state but I imagine each of those do as well.

I will repeat what I told another poster in a PM. As a DO, you will almost definintely match into an ACGME internal medicine program. If you are a halfway decent candidate, that program will be a university program. But, because of that DO bias, you probably would have gotten into a stronger program if you had the same stats coming from an MD school.

Now what does this mean? For those already in DO school, all they can do is try the hardest to do well on their boards and rotations and come application time be prepared and apply broadly. Does it mean you should forgo your DO acceptance... definitely not. It does a disservice to applicants and premeds to act like there won't be hurdles, though.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
Im not following....
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get that a lot.


I'm gonna be quick because The Walking Dead season premiere just started:
You're in DO school. You might have gone there because you reeeeally like OMM, or because you couldn't score highly on the MCAT. Any number of reasons, but thats how other people may see it.
You say you're as intelligent, as well educated, as dedicated, etc., as an MD? Well...maybe they think you should prove it by making it slightly tougher to match into certain residencies.

You may be a 3rd year, 4th year, or Rene Descartes, but a few years ago you were slumming it with pre-meds like me. Rumor has it that I'm a blithering idiot. So, good for them for making it tougher to match.
Maybe they're cracking down in places like Florida because they haven't been all that impressed. A smattering of folks may be really bright. Maybe they think that most DO students just chillax once they matriculate. A RVU student told me their dean/president threatened to fail their class as a whole, if they didn't improve. I don't know...go ask somebody with braaaaaaiiiinnnssss!




Now, imma go watch sum zombehs!
 
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GunnerBGone said:
Yeah, I get that a lot.


I'm gonna be quick because The Walking Dead season premiere just started:
You're in DO school. You might have gone there because you reeeeally like OMM, or because you couldn't score highly on the MCAT. Any number of reasons, but thats how other people may see it.
You say you're as intelligent, as well educated, as dedicated, etc., as an MD? Well...maybe they think you should prove it by making it slightly tougher to match into certain residencies.

You may be a 3rd year, 4th year, or Rene Descartes, but a few years ago you were slumming it with pre-meds like me. Rumor has it that I'm a blithering idiot. So, good for them for making it tougher to match.

Just my opinion.


Now, imma go watch sum zombehs!
Click to expand...

are you being rhetorical? I go to an MD school 😕
Otherwise I think we are on the same page. Yes the odds of matching are somewhat reduced for DOs going to ACGME. But it doesn't have anything to do with MDs trying to protect specific specialties.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
are you being rhetorical? I go to an MD school 😕
Otherwise I think we are on the same page. Yes the odds of matching are somewhat reduced for DOs going to ACGME. But it doesn't have anything to do with MDs trying to protect specific specialties.
Click to expand...

So, why many MDs whine about that some specialties are dead closed to DOs to match?
 
SpecterGT260 said:
are you being rhetorical?
Click to expand...

I haven't decided, yet.

I'll let you know if you agree with me that a tibia would shatter and splinter if chopped in half with a hatchet.
Also, where did they get silenced Berettas? They didn't have them last season.
 
SpecterGT260 said:
right. the PD survey asks questions about what they consider when deciding to extend an invite. I don't think it is for ranking applicants. Once you get the invite, I believe your chances are as good as anyone elses and it comes down to who you are.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I sometimes wonder if the programs interview some strong DO candidates as "safeties" sort of like how we apply to programs in the same manner. Now on that one I have no evidence, but I still wonder, having gone through it all.
 
Occam's razor.
Why are you guys in the pre-osteo section, anyway? Do your on-call pagers vibrate when SDN threads encroach on your match territories? Get your butts back to work.


And, seriously, somebody please answer my tibia question. Zombie infestation is 0.2% more likely than matching into ortho, so I may never know...
 
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GunnerBGone said:
I haven't decided, yet.

I'll let you know if you agree with me that a tibia would shatter and splinter if chopped in half with a hatchet.
Also, where did they get silenced Berettas? They didn't have them last season.
Click to expand...

Dude, not cool. Don't ruin it for those of us who haven't watched it yet bro.
 
hopefulMD9 said:
How in the eff do people find this stuff! I never can......
Click to expand...

Ha! Just Google it. However, you must be very careful about which websites you visit for free streaming of shows. A lot of them are crawling with viruses and malware.
 
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