MD vs DO war

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kedrin

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I got around to reading some of the DO threads and what it is about. There is a ton, and i mean a TON of threads in the DO section that debate the differences and advantages between the two degrees. Why arent there so many here?

Are the people posting in this forum so sure of what they want or what they dont want?

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the moderating staff doesn't like MD/DO debates, and we'll close this in a hurry if it gets ugly.

keep this thread civil. this is not the place to debate the merits of one degree or the other.
 
I'm getting pretty tired of "moderators" infringing on my freedom of speech.
 
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I'm getting pretty tired of "moderators" infringing on my freedom of speech.

You don't have freedom of speech on a private message board.

You can always start your own message board though.
 
I got around to reading some of the DO threads and what it is about. There is a ton, and i mean a TON of threads in the DO section that debate the differences and advantages between the two degrees. Why arent there so many here?

Are the people posting in this forum so sure of what they want or what they dont want?
There have been plenty of MD/DO threads in Pre-Allo as opposed to Pre-Osteo.
 
What's to discuss? There is no war.
They both train competent doctors. If you care, just apply to both and go to the school that best fits you.

I don't think there are any really dividing differences. They both teach medicine, they both teach you to treat the patient as a person, they both do their best to help you succeed. MD schools tend to have more convenient rotation placements and don't have to learn the DO specific manipulation techniques. For me personally, having teaching hospitals nearby to do rotations in is important.

The DO specific techniques and their usefulness probably deserves some investigation, but people on Pre-Allo aren't qualified for that debate. I think it is like Chinese medicine - some of it is hogwash, some of it works, you just have to take it with a grain of salt and find techniques that are useful for you.
 
There is a ton, and i mean a TON of threads in the DO section that debate the differences and advantages between the two degrees. Why arent there so many here?

Are you sure there aren't many debates over here as well? I could swear I see one about once a week. For example, this thread will turn into one.
 
I'm getting pretty tired of "moderators" infringing on my freedom of speech.
SDN is a private board. When you sign up to be a member, you accept the terms and conditions of usage. If you don't like them you are free to refrain from posting or join another board. Please understand the context of the situation before you mis-apply your constitutional rights.
 
SDN is a private board. When you sign up to be a member, you accept the terms and conditions of usage. If you don't like them you are free to refrain from posting or join another board.
Dont worry there rooter, I'm not in an uprising against the mods....

Edit: haha...you quoted me at first
 
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I came in with the hopes that some nutjob was suggesting we begin an armed conflict against the osteopaths - would have been entertaining.

To the OP - who cares?
 
I came in with the hopes that some nutjob was suggesting we begin an armed conflict against the osteopaths - would have been entertaining.

To the OP - who cares?

Put one MD in the thunderdome with one DO. That will settle this question once and for all.

"There is only one rule: TWO MAN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVE......"
 
I got around to reading some of the DO threads and what it is about. There is a ton, and i mean a TON of threads in the DO section that debate the differences and advantages between the two degrees. Why arent there so many here?

Are the people posting in this forum so sure of what they want or what they dont want?

If you do a search, you will see that there have been more MD/DO threads on pre-allo than pre-osteo. There are 4 times as many allo schools as osteo and more than 4 times as many applicants, so all too often any thread on pre-allo quickly deteriorates into allo ganging up and bashing osteo sessions. Thus these threads get closed as soon as they turn ugly. If you want to discuss osteo go to the pre-osteo board. If you want to discuss allo go to the pre-allo board. And there are good stickies on the pre-osteo board for anything you want to know about DO so no need to post yet another "what is the difference" question. There is a ton of info you can find about either field, no need to lump them together into an iron cage match. 🙂
 
I came in with the hopes that some nutjob was suggesting we begin an armed conflict against the osteopaths - would have been entertaining.

To the OP - who cares?

braverheartfreedom.jpeg
 
It's immaturity and ignorance that leads to the beginning and downfall of most of these threads. There's more of them in the DO area because osteopathic medicine is the alternative route, and I think people who apply that road (including myself) want to carefully weigh their decision to do so.

In the end, osteopathic medicine can lead to anything allopathic can. Just look at several schools' matching lists. It's not always as easy a road for osteopathic students to pursue the same thing allopathic students might, but there are advantages to osteopathic as well (I really believe that osteopathic students learn more and better retain anatomy because of OMM...osteopathic residencies in a spectrum of specialties exist solely for DO's, while allopathic specialties accept both MD's and DO's, for two examples).

However, threads like this always devolve when somebody says something along the lines of "Would you really want a doctor who got a 22 on their MCAT and had a 3.15 GPA. I wouldn't." <Insert joke about voodoo and witchcraft> <insert overly sensative osteopathic student/applicant> <Cue allopathic student/applicant who took the first two comments seriously> etc etc

So I recommend the mods lock this thread now and link to the group of threads which I believe is titled "MD v. DO: Final Resting Place" on the DO board.
 
If you do a search, you will see that there have been more MD/DO threads on pre-allo than pre-osteo. There are 4 times as many allo schools as osteo and more than 4 times as many applicants, so all too often any thread on pre-allo quickly deteriorates into allo ganging up and bashing osteo sessions. Thus these threads get closed as soon as they turn ugly. If you want to discuss osteo go to the pre-osteo board. If you want to discuss allo go to the pre-allo board. And there are good stickies on the pre-osteo board for anything you want to know about DO so no need to post yet another "what is the difference" question. There is a ton of info you can find about either field, no need to lump them together into an iron cage match. 🙂

Well done. Let's get this one closed?
 
It's immaturity and ignorance that leads to the beginning and downfall of most of these threads. There's more of them in the DO area because osteopathic medicine is the alternative route, and I think people who apply that road (including myself) want to carefully weigh their decision to do so....

However, threads like this always devolve when somebody says something along the lines of "Would you really want a doctor who got a 22 on their MCAT and had a 3.15 GPA. I wouldn't." <Insert joke about voodoo and witchcraft> <insert overly sensative osteopathic student/applicant> <Cue allopathic student/applicant who took the first two comments seriously> etc etc

So I recommend the mods lock this thread now and link to the group of threads which I believe is titled "MD v. DO: Final Resting Place" on the DO board.

Well done. Let's get this one closed?

Well done, yourself!
 
Are you sure there aren't many debates over here as well? I could swear I see one about once a week. For example, this thread will turn into one.


ok fine lets put it like this then, there is a much higher concentration of DO vs MD threads in the DO section. I mean theres atleast 1 thread on every page of the DO section and it sure seems like a lot less here. This may be due to what someone said that there are alot more ppl here than there.

BTW i did not make this thread to debate the differences between the two, just wondering why the DO section seems alot more vocal/defensive on the issue.
 
ok fine lets put it like this then, there is a much higher concentration of DO vs MD threads in the DO section. I mean theres atleast 1 thread on every page of the DO section and it sure seems like a lot less here. This may be due to what someone said that there are alot more ppl here than there.

BTW i did not make this thread to debate the differences between the two, just wondering why the DO section seems alot more vocal/defensive on the issue.

A topic can stay on the "top-fold" of the osteo and pre-osteo page for days. A topic can be moved to page 2 of allo and pre-allo in hours. I really think it's a reflection of numbers...~300 people viewing allo vs. ~50 viewing osteo.
 
I got around to reading some of the DO threads and what it is about. There is a ton, and i mean a TON of threads in the DO section that debate the differences and advantages between the two degrees. Why arent there so many here?

Are the people posting in this forum so sure of what they want or what they dont want?


You haven't been around long enough. There are many many more over here in pre-allo. Most of the pissing contests take place in pre-allo. Usually the MD vs DO threads started over in pre-osteo are not started by the pre-osteo students themselves. Typically a troll or an insecure pre-allo wanders over there and stirs up trouble.
 
the only way to settle this is steel cage match
 
SDN is a private board. When you sign up to be a member, you accept the terms and conditions of usage. If you don't like them you are free to refrain from posting or join another board. Please understand the context of the situation before you mis-apply your constitutional rights.

Out of curiosity, what is the drawback to allowing these threads to continue? I had been reading one of these threads in the osteo forum, and even though there was clearly animosity between the participants, I got a lot out of reading it. I have searched for previous threads, and I have read what I can, and it seems that there are often new perspectives offered.

I fully understand and recognize the terms of service, and know that I have no expectation of free speech on a private board, but I just don't understand under what premise these threads are found to not be in the readers' interest. If folks don't like what they read, they can certainly head to another thread, no?
 
It's immaturity and ignorance that leads to the beginning and downfall of most of these threads. There's more of them in the DO area because osteopathic medicine is the alternative route, and I think people who apply that road (including myself) want to carefully weigh their decision to do so.

In the end, osteopathic medicine can lead to anything allopathic can. Just look at several schools' matching lists. It's not always as easy a road for osteopathic students to pursue the same thing allopathic students might, but there are advantages to osteopathic as well (I really believe that osteopathic students learn more and better retain anatomy because of OMM...osteopathic residencies in a spectrum of specialties exist solely for DO's, while allopathic specialties accept both MD's and DO's, for two examples).

However, threads like this always devolve when somebody says something along the lines of "Would you really want a doctor who got a 22 on their MCAT and had a 3.15 GPA. I wouldn't." <Insert joke about voodoo and witchcraft> <insert overly sensative osteopathic student/applicant> <Cue allopathic student/applicant who took the first two comments seriously> etc etc

So I recommend the mods lock this thread now and link to the group of threads which I believe is titled "MD v. DO: Final Resting Place" on the DO board.

But, would you?
 
But, would you?

When someone becomes a doctor, no one is going to give a **** what GPA you graduated with or what you got on your MCAT. Seriously, if certain pre-allopathic/allopathic students are so insecure about their own abilities that they have to make someone else feel inferior, I sympathize for their patients in advance.
 
Out of curiosity, what is the drawback to allowing these threads to continue? I had been reading one of these threads in the osteo forum, and even though there was clearly animosity between the participants, I got a lot out of reading it. I have searched for previous threads, and I have read what I can, and it seems that there are often new perspectives offered.

I fully understand and recognize the terms of service, and know that I have no expectation of free speech on a private board, but I just don't understand under what premise these threads are found to not be in the readers' interest. If folks don't like what they read, they can certainly head to another thread, no?

The biggest drawback is that those threads just degenerate into raw emotion and stop being helpful. They become like the scene of a gory car wreck that you can't stop watching. IMO, moderated boards are a much more enjoyable experience.
 
Out of curiosity, what is the drawback to allowing these threads to continue? I had been reading one of these threads in the osteo forum, and even though there was clearly animosity between the participants, I got a lot out of reading it. I have searched for previous threads, and I have read what I can, and it seems that there are often new perspectives offered.

I fully understand and recognize the terms of service, and know that I have no expectation of free speech on a private board, but I just don't understand under what premise these threads are found to not be in the readers' interest. If folks don't like what they read, they can certainly head to another thread, no?
SDN policies are there to foster good discussion about topics that affect us. Usually, if you are courteous, stay on topic and don't flame, spam or troll, you are contributing to the quality of the discussion in a positive and professional manner (and since this is a professional field that is only natural). Unfortunately, MD vs. DO threads in the pre-med forums tend to derail and turn into unconstructive flame wars. Usually, people start posting in the frame of what I listed above, which essentially ruins the usefullness of the thread. After it is locked, any useful information is still there for anyone to search for. It just puts and end to the needless posting that it sinks into.
 
The only difference I see that matters is that it's harder to get a good residency from a DO than an MD. As for the actual methods... I doubt it's ever anything more than an excuse.
 
The only difference I see that matters is that it's harder to get a good residency from a DO than an MD. As for the actual methods... I doubt it's ever anything more than an excuse.

its harder for a DO to get into a very competitive MD residency.... but your statement may lead one to believe that DO residencies are inherently poor....and thats just not true.
 
Do DOs take their own boards and apply to their own residencies? From what I know, they tend to do worse on USMLEs and the residencies MDs apply to. DOs also have worse teacher/student ratios
 
Do DOs take their own boards and apply to their own residencies? From what I know, they tend to do worse on USMLEs and the residencies MDs apply to. DOs also have worse teacher/student ratios

DOs take the COMLEX and have the option of taking the USMLE. obiously, if a DO wants to get into a competitive MD residency the USMLE is reccommended if not necessary.

yes there are DO residencies to which only DOs can apply.

to my knowledge the COMLEX and USMLE are two pretty different tests. the fact that DOs have to study for both at the same time and the fact that the COMLEX is taken one week before the USMLE........i bet thats pretty stressful. that might help explain some of the difference you see in USMLE scores.

what do you mean they tend to do worse on the residencies they apply to? that doesnt make any sense.

worse student/teacher ratios during residency? during medical school? where is your evidence for this?
 
DOs take the COMLEX and have the option of taking the USMLE. obiously, if a DO wants to get into a competitive MD residency the USMLE is reccommended if not necessary.

yes there are DO residencies to which only DOs can apply.

to my knowledge the COMLEX and USMLE are two pretty different tests. the fact that DOs have to study for both at the same time and the fact that the COMLEX is taken one week before the USMLE........i bet thats pretty stressful. that might help explain the differences in USMLE scores.

what do you mean they tend to do worse on the residencies they apply to? that doesnt make any sense.

worse student/teacher ratios during residency? during medical school? where is your evidence for this?

I meant they have poorer match rates for MD residencies. And as for the faculty/student ratios, I just read USNews and saw that most Allos Med school have faculty/student ratios of around 2:1 whlie DOs are around 1:10 or less . Maybe the literature is completely wrong, in which case I stand corrected
 
Do DOs take their own boards and apply to their own residencies? From what I know, they tend to do worse on USMLEs and the residencies MDs apply to. DOs also have worse teacher/student ratios
To comment on your statements:

1) Yes, they do. They take the COMLEX exam and there are osteopathic exclusive residencies that MD's cannot apply for. While DO's are free to apply to any MD residency.

2) The reasons for this are numerous and there are factors involved regarding a DO taking the USMLE (In addition to the COMLEX) and then participating in the allopathic match that MD's do not have to face. As such this topic gets considerable debate, search the osteopathic forum to get more info.

3) This student/teacher ratio assumption is an unfounded generalization. For one this ratio differs from school to school, DO or MD. There are plenty of MD schools that have "worse" ratios. In general the "ratio" is completely subjective in the first place.
 
I meant they have poorer match rates for MD residencies. And as for the faculty/student ratios, I just read USNews and saw that most Allos Med school have faculty/student ratios of around 2:1 whlie DOs are around 1:10 or less . Maybe the literature is completely wrong, in which case I stand corrected

you are more than likely correct for the faculty student ratios, in general, i was just curious as to your source. ive been lookin up random schools on princetonreview.com and that seems about right..... one DO school it was reported had a 20:1 ratio students to faculty. although some ratios for MD programs show student to faculty of 0:1 so i'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

match rates are tricky with DOs because of the number of DOs who may enter both matches and then end up going DO. i'm not sure the match rates you are referring to were calculated though, so i dunno. but yes, for the most competetive MD residencies, i'd much rather have the MD behind my name. its just how the system works
 
you are more than likely correct for the faculty student ratios, in general, i was just curious as to your source. ive been lookin up random schools on princetonreview.com and that seems about right..... one DO school it was reported had a 20:1 ratio students to faculty. although some ratios for MD programs show student to faculty of 0:1 so i'm not sure what that is supposed to mean.

match rates are tricky with DOs because of the number of DOs who may enter both matches and then end up going DO. i'm not sure the match rates you are referring to were calculated though, so i dunno. but yes, for the most competetive MD residencies, i'd much rather have the MD behind my name. its just how the system works

Like I already said, these ratios are subjective and open for each school to determine and interpret. Most MD schools have attatched hosptials and they include all the academic physicians there, researchers, etc even if they have nothing to do with the medical education per se. Most DO programs do not have an on-campus affiliate and therefore cannot include all those hordes of physicians with the ratio. It is a subjective measure. That is why some schools will report a 1:1 ratio, and some will point to a 20:1. The practical difference is almost never that great.
 
Like I already said, these ratios are subjective and open for each school to determine and interpret. Most MD schools have attatched hosptials and they include all the academic physicians there, researchers, etc even if they have nothing to do with the medical education per se. Most DO programs do not have an on-campus affiliate and therefore cannot include all those hordes of physicians with the ratio. It is a subjective measure. That is why some schools will report a 1:1 ratio, and some will point to a 20:1. The practical difference is almost never that great.

interesting. i wasnt trying to imply that DOs were any worse off b/c of this difference in student to faculty ratio. PCOM lists a ratio of 1:1. i understand where you are coming from.
 
The teacher/student ratio is kind of an interesting topic. Does this average include all associate profs? I ask because almost the entire PhD population from the research facility I worked at was associate profs at a local medical school, however, none of them had ever to my knowledge even stepped foot on the campus. In other words, it is just a title easily handed out, and means nothing.
 
Just look at what a former DO school professor said...
I spent 12 years teaching basic sciences and 7 years as an associate dean at the an osteopathic medical school. However, since the school's faculty came from institutions throughout the United States, I doubt that what I observed differed much from the situation at other osteopathic schools.

Students carried a heavy curriculum in osteopathic manipulative therapy (OMT), beginning in their freshman year. The department of manipulative medicine was completely segregated from the other departments, both in principles and in practice. The osteopathic faculty members in the standard medical departments neither practiced nor taught OMT. Nor did the OMT faculty practice or teach the standard forms of medicine. It was as if OMT was a freestanding form of health care&#8212;one that, unlike other departments, was not necessarily bound by scientific foundations. Being a basic science researcher, I have made attempts to set up an animal model to objectively test the claim that certain harmful forms of sympathetic nerve traffic could be altered by spinal OMT. However, I never received any support from the osteopathic faculty in seeing such a study completed. The general attitude of the osteopathic manipulation physicians was, "since we already know it works, why should we bother with proving it."

The truth is most rational DO's wouldn't mind if the the two equivalent professions, MD and DO, just became one thing: MD.

There isn't a lot of scientific support for OMT. For procedures that are supported, MD's can easily learn the technique through a CME class.

Just combine MD/DO into MD.

Look what it says on the American Osteopathic Association website...
With a strong emphasis on the inter-relationship of the body's nerves, muscles, bones and organs, doctors of osteopathic medicine, or D.O.s, apply the philosophy of treating the whole person to the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness, disease and injury.
As if allopathic doctors don't see the inter-relationship between nerves, bones and muscles. And they still use this "philosophy of treating the whole person" thing, which is complete bunk, and I suspect a subtle way of saying that osteopaths make better general practitioners.

I know several DO's who would not care if the degrees were combined.
 
Do DOs take their own boards and apply to their own residencies?

Yes, they do.

DOs also have worse teacher/student ratios

I can't believe that we're arguing about which is better based on teacher/student ratios.

This is not undergrad, where teacher/student ratios matter.

This is med school, where the majority of schools routinely record their lectures, and then post them online for students to listen to at home. In that kind of setting, you could have 1 teacher for 500 students, and it wouldn't matter.

As for the clinical years - you don't learn from emeritus professors, like you may have done in undergrad. You learn how to practice medicine from your interns, residents, textbooks, and (above all) from your patients. You may learn something from your attendings, but, generally speaking, your residents and your patients will be your real teachers.

Teacher/student ratios? This is getting ridiculous.

(And before people get on me for being defensive and having a chip on my shoulder - I go to an allopathic school. So it has nothing to do with my "insecurities.")
 
I can't believe that we're arguing about which is better based on teacher/student ratios.

This is not undergrad, where teacher/student ratios matter.

And these are the same kids who were arguing on a thread last week saying how little time they have as pre-meds and how stressful it is lol. Here's an idea, put down the US News rankings, use your "getting into medical school" hardcover book as a doorstop, and go out and have a drink.

I think I went to a grand total of four classes my entire first 2 years of med school. Why would the teacher/student ratio matter?
 
The DO vs. MD thing is very much an SDN affectation.

Just tossing this out to other medical students or residents/attendings out there: do you hear it talked about outside of SDN?

We have osteopaths rotate at our school and have some in our residency programs and I've never heard discussion about it. The fact is, a physician is a physician. It's just a non-issue.

I think once you hit med school and beyond you'll find yourself talking about DO vs. MD about as much as you probably talk about your SATs now. Not a lot. Unless you're kinda sad.
 
The DO vs. MD thing is very much an SDN affectation.

Just tossing this out to other medical students or residents/attendings out there: do you hear it talked about outside of SDN?

We have osteopaths rotate at our school and have some in our residency programs and I've never heard discussion about it. The fact is, a physician is a physician. It's just a non-issue.

I think once you hit med school and beyond you'll find yourself talking about DO vs. MD about as much as you probably talk about your SATs now. Not a lot. Unless you're kinda sad.

Nope. Haven't heard much off SDN.

We've had some of our clinical lectures given by DO's and nothing negative was said by the students.
 
Everyone knows what an MD is, its the most traditional route to becoming a physician. Osteopathy was started as an alternative to allopathy, in recent years there is only a minor gap between the two in terms of training. In general the stats of MD applicants and accepted students are much higher than for DOs. The average accepted MCAT of MDs is 30 while DOs ranges from 24 to 26, that is a big difference. Average GPAs are also somewhat lower.

If you have a choice between the two, always take the MD.
 
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