MD vs DO war

[ATrain]

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I'm wondering, what if everyone who was rejected from Allo schools with above 30 MCAT's applied to DO and got in, raised THAT bar, would the stigma still exist? People argue endlessly and use the MCAT as their basis, but that doesn't speak the truth about the applicants. It does say something else entirely, where the **** did those that were rejected from allo school go if they wanted to become a doctor so badly? Remember, not everyone with a 30+ mcat got into Allo School. And they sure as hell didn't apply DO.

Why don't we put all those applicants into the DO pool (hypothetically) and see the mcat bar raised up; now what?

Thank you. If anything, it proves the determination of applicants in DO school in becoming physicians. 👍

I scored a 36 on my MCAT, going DO

 

[mfrizzo3]

ok

 

[167649]

MDs, DOs and the rest of healthcare professionals should use this energy to fight Walmart before we start seeing new walmart hospitals around!

Too late:

http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/02/19/early-adopters-warm-to-retail-clinics-but-publics-still-cool/

 

[digitlnoize]

I scored a 36 on my MCAT, going DO

Good for you! I think the point people are missing is that people choose their school for many different reasons. I have 2 MD and 1 DO acceptance and am likely taking my DO acceptance and running.

I like the school better. I like the area better...it's better for my family for many reasons.

People don't just choose DO as a "backup".

 

[chinamazing]

I also scored in the mid 30's and am heavily considering a DO school over an MD school as well. I believe the DO curriculum does give students a slight advantage in knowning anatomy, working with their hands doing P & H's and has the emphasis on training clinicians from the beginning. MD schools I've been to in general emphasize more research opportunities (thanks to larger NIH funding and research motivated faculty at MD schools).

I think the major lesson that should be taken from this thread is what kind of doctor you will develop into and become is going to be directed by YOU and not limited by the school you go to regardless of it being osteopathic or allopathic.

 

[Nasrudin]

I also scored in the mid 30's and am heavily considering a DO school over an MD school as well. I believe the DO curriculum does give students a slight advantage in knowning anatomy, working with their hands doing P & H's and has the emphasis on training clinicians from the beginning. MD schools I've been to in general emphasize more research opportunities (thanks to larger NIH funding and research motivated faculty at MD schools).

I think the major lesson that should be taken from this thread is what kind of doctor you will develop into and become is going to be directed by YOU and not limited by the school you go to regardless of it being osteopathic or allopathic.

Congratulations on your success. I certainly respect your point of view but I disagree with the the highlighted statement barring a direct interest in Family Medicine. Which is kind of moot considering they take Pakistanis with glee in family med spots.

Should you decide in your medical school years that you are really into Radiology you will flatly have a tougher time getting placed into a residency from an osteopathic school. I am admittedly bound to the coasts in my preferences but still.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Congratulations on your success. I certainly respect your point of view but I disagree with the the highlighted statement barring a direct interest in Family Medicine. Which is kind of moot considering they take Pakistanis with glee in family med spots.

Should you decide in your medical school years that you are really into Radiology you will flatly have a tougher time getting placed into a residency from an osteopathic school. I am admittedly bound to the coasts in my preferences but still.

100% untrue. Not only do 60% of DOs place into all fields of MD residencies, but there are an entire sect of AOA residencies that only DOs can apply to (which include radiology). If you have attended a DO school and experienced trouble matching into said field ... your advice is valid. However, if you are a pre-med who gathered this opinion from SDN, or 'know various doctors who feel this way,' or 'had a friend who couldn't match from a DO,' then this statement is completely void.

 

[Nasrudin]

100% untrue. Not only do 60% of DOs place into all fields of MD residencies, but there are an entire sect of AOA residencies that only DOs can apply to (which include radiology). If you have attended a DO school and experienced trouble matching into said field ... your advice is valid. However, if you are a pre-med who gathered this opinion from SDN, or 'know various doctors who feel this way,' or 'had a friend who couldn't match from a DO,' then this statement is completely void.

Well when you are approaching the time of investing in your future you must rely on your own best assessment of a situation before going into it. I am only a good listener and i would like to think good at intuiting things said between the lines. In the end what else have you got. I'm old enough and have been stupid for long enough and still living to know that it's not always best to learn things from experience. With limits on such things as....life...it's not possible to do it that way.

Like I said it's not a comfortable subject for people with a lot at stake. to each his/her own. We're all calling our own shots.

The reason why i like this subject is because I know there's no difference in the practice of osteopathic or allopathic medicine. And I've always had trouble ingesting grandiose falsities--such as the uniqueness of the osteopath, especially when the powers at work within osteopathic medical administrations seem particularly hypocritical about it.

My buddy--an osteopathically trained student--just got placed in an allopathic EM program. I'm happy as hell for him. I'm happy for you too--you found your calling. But I'll be d@amed if I'lll be happy about dragging my wife to away rotations in crappy hospitals in the middle of nowhere for an outside shot at getting to where i want to go which is an allopathic residency in California or decent urban area on the east coast.

I wanted to believe that there were schools who look at applicants differently. That there were different ways of doing things than what our current systems deliver. so i started listening. carefully. consistently. I am frankly, disturbed by the hypocrisy perpetrated against osteopathic students by their institutions.

I accept you disagree. Perhaps that's why I find this subject interesting. It is dynamic and evolving, I'll say that.

 

[notdeadyet]

Not only do 60% of DOs place into all fields of MD residencies, but there are an entire sect of AOA residencies that only DOs can apply to (which include radiology).

DOs have the opportunity to match into every allopathic residency out there. That said, at many residency locations, they are not viewed on the same playing field as MDs. This is more relevant in some fields (dermatology, rad-onc, etc.) than others (family med, emergency med, etc.).

Go to the osteopathic boards on SDN or go to the residency forums. You will see many, many postings by osteopaths looking for osteopath-friendly programs.

Folks who look down their noses at osteopathic medicine or the ability of osteopaths to get great residencies are uninformed. But I think that pretending that an allopathic graduate has no advantages at many allopathic residencies over osteopathic candidates is a bit naive.

If this is incorrect, folks should respond to the dozens of folks looking for osteopathic-friendly programs and tell them it's a non-issue. The replies to those threads are usually lists of programs, not fellow osteopaths telling them that they'll find green grass wherever they head.

 

[nonesuchgirl]

DOs have the opportunity to match into every allopathic residency out there. That said, at many residency locations, they are not viewed on the same playing field as MDs. This is more relevant in some fields (dermatology, rad-onc, etc.) than others (family med, emergency med, etc.).

Go to the osteopathic boards on SDN or go to the residency forums. You will see many, many postings by osteopaths looking for osteopath-friendly programs.

Folks who look down their noses at osteopathic medicine or the ability of osteopaths to get great residencies are uninformed. But I think that pretending that an allopathic graduate has no advantages at many allopathic residencies over osteopathic candidates is a bit naive.

If this is incorrect, folks should respond to the dozens of folks looking for osteopathic-friendly programs and tell them it's a non-issue. The replies to those threads are usually lists of programs, not fellow osteopaths telling them that they'll find green grass wherever they head.

Why shouldn't an allo res prefer an allo candidate? And the reverse?

 

[Doublecortin]

Ok..Let's have this thread closed. The reality is that every one who applies to DO school is because he did not get in/could not get into an allopathic medical school. Let's not dilute ourselves about the merit of the DO degree, the equality.... blah, blah, blah...

You all know it.

Now, let's just move on...

yeah, nice going bro! way trying to close a thread by flaming it

 

[notdeadyet]

Why shouldn't an allo res prefer an allo candidate? And the reverse?

I didn't say they shouldn't. And osteopathic residencies are closed to allopathic graduates.

And again, there are many residency programs in many specialties that will not have a strong preference for allopathic graduates. But this is not always the case, and it's less likely to be the case for more competitive specialties.

 

[BrainBuff]

Like I said earlier....let's just move on..

 

[patzan]

DOs have the opportunity to match into every allopathic residency out there. That said, at many residency locations, they are not viewed on the same playing field as MDs. This is more relevant in some fields (dermatology, rad-onc, etc.) than others (family med, emergency med, etc.).

Go to the osteopathic boards on SDN or go to the residency forums. You will see many, many postings by osteopaths looking for osteopath-friendly programs.

Folks who look down their noses at osteopathic medicine or the ability of osteopaths to get great residencies are uninformed. But I think that pretending that an allopathic graduate has no advantages at many allopathic residencies over osteopathic candidates is a bit naive.

If this is incorrect, folks should respond to the dozens of folks looking for osteopathic-friendly programs and tell them it's a non-issue. The replies to those threads are usually lists of programs, not fellow osteopaths telling them that they'll find green grass wherever they head.

Amen. 100% correct post. I interviewed for Radiology. I ran into exactly ZERO DOs on the interview trail. Sure, there are a few DO radiology residencies, but let's be frank and honest...they're no allo program.

 

[patzan]

However, if you are a pre-med who gathered this opinion from SDN, or 'know various doctors who feel this way,' or 'had a friend who couldn't match from a DO,' then this statement is completely void.

...and you are...?

 

[fisko82]

...and you are...?

He is Dr. Kirby, get with the program.

 

[UnderdogMD]

It's interesting, because I gather from what I've read that the AOA plays this shell game, where DOs are fundamentally different than MDs (which is why Osteopathic residencies should be closed to MDs, OMM is vital to the field, cranio continues to have validity, and the osteopathic intern year is crucial to professional development), but at the same time DOs are equivalent to MDs (which is why they should be eligible for allopathic residencies and maintain equivalent practice rights). I think it's a credit to the DO community that so many younger DOs and students have seen through this nonsense. The MDs seem to sit around scratching their heads about what exactly a DO is, or worse, hanging on to outdated notions of MD superiority.

At some point the AOA needs to man up and take a side. Either DOs are fundamentally different than MDs, or they're not. Then let the real-world chips fall where they may.

👍

It seems extremely hypocritical that MD residencies are open to DOs but DO residencies are not open to MDs. In fact that sounds like a DO superiority complex to me.

 

[Concubine]

👍

It seems extremely hypocritical that MD residencies are open to DOs but DO residencies are not open to MDs. In fact that sounds like a DO superiority complex to me.

awesome avatar.

 

[JaggerPlate]

...and you are...?

The name's Bond ... James Bond. (waiting for over a year to drop that)

Okay ... in reality, I am absolutely no one. I am a pre-med, meaning that I have no real world knowledge, but insist on dropping my two cents absolutely everywhere because at this point in my life I feel as if I know everything. Trust me, I do NOT disagree that certain Allopathic residencies can be biased towards Allo students and have a certain (outdated) view on DO applicants. This is reality, period. However, DOs are matching absolutely everywhere, and I think that making broad sweeping statements that MD residencies look down on DOs without stating specific examples is the same as me stating that DOs stand an even chance in any Allo residency. I feel as if the gap between DOs and MDs continues to become smaller and smaller with every passing day, and my intent was to basically state that DOs are really not restricted IF they are willing to prove (this remark is made without considering those programs that are generally known to snub DOs) that they are qualified.

 

[JaggerPlate]

👍

It seems extremely hypocritical that MD residencies are open to DOs but DO residencies are not open to MDs. In fact that sounds like a DO superiority complex to me.

This is an issue that should definitely be addressed by the AOA.

 

[Nasrudin]

The name's Bond ... James Bond. (waiting for over a year to drop that)

Okay ... in reality, I am absolutely no one. I am a pre-med, meaning that I have no real world knowledge, but insist on dropping my two cents absolutely everywhere because at this point in my life I feel as if I know everything. Trust me, I do NOT disagree that certain Allopathic residencies can be biased towards Allo students and have a certain (outdated) view on DO applicants. This is reality, period. However, DOs are matching absolutely everywhere, and I think that making broad sweeping statements that MD residencies look down on DOs without stating specific examples is the same as me stating that DOs stand an even chance in any Allo residency. I feel as if the gap between DOs and MDs continues to become smaller and smaller with every passing day, and my intent was to basically state that DOs are really not restricted IF they are willing to prove (this remark is made without considering those programs that are generally known to snub DOs) that they are qualified.

Yeah man. I mean look if all goes well we'll be future colleagues and I will always advocate for my colleagues. I am a DO supporter.

But I am also a natural born heretic and those in charge of sniffing out those with any contempt for hypocrisy--and this is an active pursuit with osteo adcomms in my opinion--would smell me in a second.

"And so why do want to be an osteopathic physician...?"

Me: "Look. I don't give a **** about being an osteopath I want to go to medical school period. you are in the business of training physicians right...?"

And this from a guy with thoroughly unglamorous stats.

It's best I didn't start medical school on the wrong foot. I am just egotistical enough to believe a deserve a semi--well ok marginally scant--fair chance at doing anything i want to do in medicine given an equal or better showing in my training. I have already sacrificed too much to spend top dollar--the going rate for an osteopathic education--for 2nd rate training sites and affiliations.

I know you can do anything if are at the cream of the crop from an Osteopathic school but isn't it enough to stomach the rigors of this path without having to bootlick politic you're way into parity with the competition given equal performance. With a multi-hundred thousand dollar a investment, to say nothing of sweat, that would just drive me to lead a revolt or something.

 

[DrMidlife]

Amen. 100% correct post. I interviewed for Radiology. I ran into exactly ZERO DOs on the interview trail. Sure, there are a few DO radiology residencies, but let's be frank and honest...they're no allo program.

Note chief resident: http://www.shmc.org/index.php/page/613

 

[HEADintheCLOUDS]

I got around to reading some of the DO threads and what it is about. There is a ton, and i mean a TON of threads in the DO section that debate the differences and advantages between the two degrees. Why arent there so many here?

Are the people posting in this forum so sure of what they want or what they dont want?

Why? LEt me tell you a story. Jack is the best astronaut in the world and tom is a lowly janitor. Tom always debates who is better because he knows he is trash compared to jack and wants to not accept it. Jack on the otherhand knows he is the best and doesnt need to fight, people know he is the best and so he remains quiet!

 

[mfrizzo3]

Why? LEt me tell you a story. Jack is the best astronaut in the world and tom is a lowly janitor. Tom always debates who is better because he knows he is trash compared to jack and wants to not accept it. Jack on the otherhand knows he is the best and doesnt need to fight, people know he is the best and so he remains quiet!

I'm guessing you are Jack?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Yeah man. I mean look if all goes well we'll be future colleagues and I will always advocate for my colleagues. I am a DO supporter.

But I am also a natural born heretic and those in charge of sniffing out those with any contempt for hypocrisy--and this is an active pursuit with osteo adcomms in my opinion--would smell me in a second.

"And so why do want to be an osteopathic physician...?"

Me: "Look. I don't give a **** about being an osteopath I want to go to medical school period. you are in the business of training physicians right...?"

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this mindset. Most osteo adcoms respect an applicant who sees MD and DO as two separate paths to a universal goal ... the distinctions are real, but both situations lead to fully licensed physicians.

It's best I didn't start medical school on the wrong foot. I am just egotistical enough to believe a deserve a semi--well ok marginally scant--fair chance at doing anything i want to do in medicine given an equal or better showing in my training. I have already sacrificed too much to spend top dollar--the going rate for an osteopathic education--for 2nd rate training sites and affiliations.

Making a statement that going to a DO school instead of an MD school is a waste of sacrifice, and equates to an lower showing in medicine does not make you a DO supporter. It is offensive, and, despite being intertwined with unnecessarily complex language, is incorrect. Also, if you think that all DO schools are equipped with 2nd rate training sites and affiliations, you're no better than a 19 year old who says DO schools are inferior because of slightly lower average gpa and MCAT.

I know you can do anything if are at the cream of the crop from an Osteopathic school but isn't it enough to stomach the rigors of this path without having to bootlick politic you're way into parity with the competition given equal performance. With a multi-hundred thousand dollar a investment, to say nothing of sweat, that would just drive me to lead a revolt or something.

So, DO students have to fight an uphill battle, and be cream of the crop to be considered in MD residencies, but an MD behind your name means you can have average grades, low USMLE scores, and no references but still match competitive residencies simply because of the MD behind your name? The bottom line is that MDs have to bust their hump and kiss mega @$$ to match competitively, JUST as DOs do. This is life ... not a meaningless distinction between letters.

 

[Nasrudin]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this mindset. Most osteo adcoms respect an applicant who sees MD and DO as two separate paths to a universal goal ... the distinctions are real, but both situations lead to fully licensed physicians.



Making a statement that going to a DO school instead of an MD school is a waste of sacrifice, and equates to an lower showing in medicine does not make you a DO supporter. It is offensive, and, despite being intertwined with unnecessarily complex language, is incorrect. Also, if you think that all DO schools are equipped with 2nd rate training sites and affiliations, you're no better than a 19 year old who says DO schools are inferior because of slightly lower average gpa and MCAT.



So, DO students have to fight an uphill battle, and be cream of the crop to be considered in MD residencies, but an MD behind your name means you can have average grades, low USMLE scores, and no references but still match competitive residencies simply because of the MD behind your name? The bottom line is that MDs have to bust their hump and kiss mega @$$ to match competitively, JUST as DOs do. This is life ... not a meaningless distinction between letters.

OK man. You rock. I suck. Do's are rad. I was thinking out loud to make a decision about where to apply. I am a DO supporter whether you accept my support or not. It's just not for me. Best of luck my man.

 

[JaggerPlate]

OK man. You rock. I suck. Do's are rad. I was thinking out loud to make a decision about where to apply. I am a DO supporter whether you accept my support or not. It's just not for me. Best of luck my man.

Definitely not my intent to seem illogical in my attempt to support DOs. Your thought process seemed more like a statement of proven knowledge, not a personal opinion. If it isn't for you, I respect the fact that you are giving the opportunity for students who really want to be osteopathic physicians to apply. Best of luck to you as well ... I think I'll exit this one for a while.

 

[Nasrudin]

Definitely not my intent to seem illogical in my attempt to support DOs. Your thought process seemed more like a statement of proven knowledge, not a personal opinion. If it isn't for you, I respect the fact that you are giving the opportunity for students who really want to be osteopathic physicians to apply. Best of luck to you as well ... I think I'll exit this one for a while.

Sure. I can be abrasive in rhetoric only. I adopt positions to test myself. I regret any offense. It is only my opinion with regards to me. And I also respect you defense of your choices in life and agree that osteopathic medicine should be reserved for those who really belong there. Disharmony would be bad for everyone.

 

[Kaustikos]

I scored a 36 on my MCAT, going DO

But the reality still holds, a lot of people who get in the 30's and above would not even consider DO school because that lingering stigma. I did the same thing until I stopped being so ignorant and read up on the schools on my own.

I work at a pharmacy and we were looking at a script written by a DO and one of the pharmacist basically asserted that DO schools are a joke and don't even train students as well. And this guy was still under 30. I didn't want to argue with this guy because let's face it, until there is a larger movement of higher mcat scoreres into the DO world, people will still use that as their reasoning of why DO's are less competent.

That and you never see DO's in tv/movie medical shows. I would love to see just one episode of House where a DO diagnosis something quicker than House. I think Jesus would come from the grounds if that episode was made.


But in all honesty, I do not like that some DO schools want people to be DO's and not physicians in general.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Note chief resident: http://www.shmc.org/index.php/page/613

Good for her, impressive.

100% untrue. Not only do 60% of DOs place into all fields of MD residencies, but there are an entire sect of AOA residencies that only DOs can apply to (which include radiology). If you have attended a DO school and experienced trouble matching into said field ... your advice is valid. However, if you are a pre-med who gathered this opinion from SDN, or 'know various doctors who feel this way,' or 'had a friend who couldn't match from a DO,' then this statement is completely void.

The thing is, the DO students who have gone through the allo match never come back and talk about how easy it was. The only people who talk about how you will have no trouble getting your choice are pre-meds. I am not saying that DOs cant match even into very competitive fields. There is a certain DO student who just matched allo ophtho (very competitive). This doesnt mean that a DO student doesnt follow a harder road.

Also, if you think that all DO schools are equipped with 2nd rate training sites and affiliations, you're no better than a 19 year old who says DO schools are inferior because of slightly lower average gpa and MCAT.

Here are some people who have gone through the match and rotations. Straight from the horses mouth, which apparently is no better than a 19 year old:

Reasons why I, as a 4th year DO student, did not apply through the otseopathic match:

1. Quality of training: far and away the number one reason. No DO program could even touch the range of pathology, didactics, patient volume, specialists available, and resources compared to the allopathic university programs where I was offered interviews. This does not apply to every program in every specialty. Some of the DO EM and primary care programs are top-notch, and they are well-known. But the variability in the quality of the programs overall is concerning. There are some gems, but way to many questionable programs. Probably the safest bets are the dually accredited programs.

As Osteopathic Students, you will likely get 2 good years of sound, quality medical education. As third and fourth year students, however, many Osteopathic Schools leave their students high and dry and fending for themselves when it comes to clinical education. Schools will try to woo you by telling you that "You can do your clinicals wherever you want". The reality, however, is that you will be paying tuition to your school so that you can personally call doctor's office after doctor's office and hospital after hospital, groveling with them to let you tag alone for 4 weeks so that you can get "credit" for that rotation.

I agree with the OP that all schools are not created equal when it comes to clinical rotations. For those of you considering going the DO route, choose your school wisely - going with an older established school won't ever hurt. As for the newer schools...it's a crap shoot. I've seen what the OP describes first hand, although, thankfully it wasn't me.

I agree that the OP may have been a bit melodramatic, but he DOES have a point. I'm a fellow MS4 DO student, and I can almost guarantee that we don't go to the same school, but the comments that the OP makes are almost identical to what myself and my classmates gripe about when we get together.

The clinical rotations in 4th year can be a major PITA to coordinate for the reasons that the OP mentioned. MD students, who have an associated medical center along with their medical school, don't have this problem. I spent as many months of my 4th year as possible in University tertiary care centers, and the difference in the quality of education versus the backwater community hospital where I spent my 3rd year was embarrassing and depressing to me. I can't tell you how many conversations I had with MD students who couldn't believe that I didn't have a 'home hospital' to do sub-internships. I'll admit, I was a bit embarrassed at times to explain how the clinical years of DO schools work. All I can say is that their 3rd year was far superior to mine.

I'm proud to be a DO, but that does not prevent me from seeing that there are significant problems with the way we are headed as a profession. Osteopathic education has some extremely serious issues to work through. The ridiculous pace of new schools opening and the lack of quality Osteopathic GME programs are two issues which the AOA has been totally deficient in addressing. I can assure you that the allopathic world (on whom we depend on to train close to 60% of DO grads) is noticing this.

Part of the reason why so little progress is accomplished in the AOA is that whenever a new way of thinking is proposed, a very vocal cadre of DOs and students rise up to decry 'the end of osteopathy' and an imminent takeover by the allopathic world. It doesn't have to be like that. Change is needed and is in fact required. But the current system by which the AOA chooses new leaders rewards those who would stifle change.

I couldn't agree more. Have no problems being a DO, but I did have a problem with how rotations were set (hit or miss), how inflexible the scheduling was (because you have 250 in the class). I went to [removed ]. Thank God I am done with that medical school.

It is very simple. You will teach yourself and how hard you are willing to work will ultimately determine future. If you rely on the school you will end up at Community Hospital practicing something you never intended. If you go in with the mindset that you are on your own (which you are at [removed]) and kill the USMLE (NOT COMLEX) then you can be whatever you want.

[removed] has residencies associated with it.....it's true, but nobody in their right mind applies for them unless you are at the bottom of the class and barely passed boards. Millcreek is one biggest hole in the wall hospitals you will ever have the displeasure of visiting.

 

[Instatewaiter]

So I decided to track down some posts by people who have gone through the match.

Recent match trends are as follows:

DO's who want to match into DO surgery need only be average or a bit above average to do so. But beware...not all gen. surg programs are created equal.

DO's who want to match into MD surgery must be better than their MD brothers and sisters. Plan on taking the USMLE and doing better than most MD applicants. Fortunately for wanna-be surgeons, general surgery isn't attracting as many highly qualified applicants as it used to - mostly for lifestyle and monetary reasons. MD programs tend to be more uniform in terms of quality and opportunities...with some exceptions of course.

No matter what anyone says, being a DO will definitely make it at least somewhat harder fro you to match at allopathic GS programs.

No matter what anyone says, being a DO will definitely make it at least somewhat harder fro you to match at allopathic GS programs.

This is absolutely correct. As I mentioned above, a DO applicant will have to be better than their fellow MD applicants numbers wise AND in terms of LOR, experience, etc.

 

[J1515]

But I'll be d@amed if I'lll be happy about dragging my wife to away rotations in crappy hospitals in the middle of nowhere for an outside shot at getting to where i want to go which is an allopathic residency in California or decent urban area on the east coast.

UMDNJSOM is affiliated with their own hospital system. At NYCOM you can do all of your rotations at a single hospital in the metropolitan area if you choose or you can do your rotations at different hospitals all within a 10 mile radius. Perhaps with schools like WVSOM you can't do this. I suggest you do some research or speak with some experienced people before making generalizations and further misinforming the curious pre-meds on this board.

 

[J1515]

Sure, there are a few DO radiology residencies, but let's be frank and honest...they're no allo program.

How do you know? Interviewed at them?

 

[Kaustikos]

UMDNJSOM is affiliated with their own hospital system. At NYCOM you can do all of your rotations at a single hospital in the metropolitan area if you choose or you can do your rotations at different hospitals all within a 10 mile radius. Perhaps with schools like WVSOM you can't do this. I suggest you do some research or speak with some experienced people before making generalizations and further misinforming the curious pre-meds on this board.

It's a tiring and annoying trend that needs to stop.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Good for her, impressive.



The thing is, the DO students who have gone through the allo match never come back and talk about how easy it was. The only people who talk about how you will have no trouble getting your choice are pre-meds. I am not saying that DOs cant match even into very competitive fields. There is a certain DO student who just matched allo ophtho (very competitive). This doesnt mean that a DO student doesnt follow a harder road.





Here are some people who have gone through the match and rotations. Straight from the horses mouth, which apparently is no better than a 19 year old:

Thank you for citing sources, but for me it's really hard to gauge anything based on SDN. Like you said, no one who finds something easy ever complains about it ... so we never know. Also, a lot of those people you quoted have opinions that are very well known on SDN already (ie VALSALVA who says he/she completely regrets going into medicine, but never mentioned having any regret about going DO). I don't think I'd call it straight from the horses mouth by any means.

Also, my biggest beef from the last part you quoted was the poster making general statements that all DO schools had second rate rotation sites. This is just a blantant statement, and citing specific examples doesn't add validity to a sweeping claim. There are NUMEROUS MD schools that I'm sure have less than steller sites, but nothing is brought up against this because people make it into a 'DO schools have poor sites' instead of ' this specific MEDICAL school has poor rotation' whether it is DO or MD. I think you will find that older, more established DO schools have no problem with quality rotation sites (the quality of individual residencies is an entirely different issue).

 

[JaggerPlate]

But the reality still holds, a lot of people who get in the 30's and above would not even consider DO school because that lingering stigma. I did the same thing until I stopped being so ignorant and read up on the schools on my own.

I work at a pharmacy and we were looking at a script written by a DO and one of the pharmacist basically asserted that DO schools are a joke and don't even train students as well. And this guy was still under 30. I didn't want to argue with this guy because let's face it, until there is a larger movement of higher mcat scoreres into the DO world, people will still use that as their reasoning of why DO's are less competent.

That and you never see DO's in tv/movie medical shows. I would love to see just one episode of House where a DO diagnosis something quicker than House. I think Jesus would come from the grounds if that episode was made.


But in all honesty, I do not like that some DO schools want people to be DO's and not physicians in general.

Holy crap ... a pharmacist didn't respect DOs?? Jeeze, I hope chiropractors and acupuncturists still find it in their extensive medical training to validate physicians. Next time I'm at Rite-Aid I'll definitely ask the pharmacist their opinion about this issue ... this is something that everyone should consider before applying.

I also like how in pre-allo there was recently a thread about people hating how medical dramas glamorize medicine and take away from its true values of healing ... but in the same right, DOs aren't well respected because they aren't on House and Scrubs??? Christ.

Don't even touch on the MCAT debate ... not worth anyone's time.

 

[Kaustikos]

Holy crap ... a pharmacist didn't respect DOs?? Jeeze, I hope chiropractors and acupuncturists still find it in their extensive medical training to validate physicians. Next time I'm at Rite-Aid I'll definitely ask the pharmacist their opinion about this issue ... this is something that everyone should consider before applying.

I also like how in pre-allo there was recently a thread about people hating how medical dramas glamorize medicine and take away from its true values of healing ... but in the same right, DOs aren't well respected because they aren't on House and Scrubs??? Christ.

Don't even touch on the MCAT debate ... not worth anyone's time.

I agree completely with what you say and I don't even mean to start a flame war here. My experience from pharmacists stems from people who graduated from top pharmacy schools, so their ego may be a "little" inflated. I am just offering what I see and hear.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I agree completely with what you say and I don't even mean to start a flame war here. My experience from pharmacists stems from people who graduated from top pharmacy schools, so their ego may be a "little" inflated. I am just offering what I see and hear.

Same ... I really hate adding fuel to these MD vs DO debates, but sometimes it just happens. I didn't mean to bag on you personally, or pharmacy for that matter, just the situation.

Man ... I said I was going to retire from this thread last night👎

 

[notdeadyet]

Also, my biggest beef from the last part you quoted was the poster making general statements that all DO schools had second rate rotation sites. This is just a blantant statement, and citing specific examples doesn't add validity to a sweeping claim.

I agree that it's hard to generalize.

Here's a criteria you should apply to selecting ANY medical school, allopathic or osteopathic: look closely at the rotations sites.

If the school does not have its own hospital, this is a pretty good reason to knock it off your list. Many schools that don't have their own hospital have "relationships" with community hospitals and "understandings" with tertiary care centers. But the fact is that you will be either scrambling to find rotations sites for your second half of medical school, rotating at places lacking the volume and diversity to make you the physician you want to be, or spending a fortune travelling around the country like a vagabond for two years.

If the school does have its own hospital, what is the hospital like? Folks obsess over the minutia of the first two years (class sizes, PBL, grades, etc.) but at the end of the day, you largely learn the material on your own. You read, you study. That goes out the window in years three and four. Make sure your home hospital has the rotations, volume and diversity that you want.

Again, this applies to DO and to MD. I know of several DO programs that have their own hospitals. But I also know that the only DO program I was considering did the vagabond thing for the clinical years so I dropped it.

 

[notdeadyet]

Holy crap ... a pharmacist didn't respect DOs?? Jeeze, I hope chiropractors and acupuncturists still find it in their extensive medical training to validate physicians. Next time I'm at Rite-Aid I'll definitely ask the pharmacist their opinion about this issue ... this is something that everyone should consider before applying.

Belittling other educations in an attempt to defend your education as others belittle it smacks of irony, no?

Taking pot shots at alternative educations makes those who take pot shots at osteopathic medicine feel its all right.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

But the reality still holds, a lot of people who get in the 30's and above would not even consider DO school because that lingering stigma. I did the same thing until I stopped being so ignorant and read up on the schools on my own.

I work at a pharmacy and we were looking at a script written by a DO and one of the pharmacist basically asserted that DO schools are a joke and don't even train students as well. And this guy was still under 30. I didn't want to argue with this guy because let's face it, until there is a larger movement of higher mcat scoreres into the DO world, people will still use that as their reasoning of why DO's are less competent.

That and you never see DO's in tv/movie medical shows. I would love to see just one episode of House where a DO diagnosis something quicker than House. I think Jesus would come from the grounds if that episode was made.


But in all honesty, I do not like that some DO schools want people to be DO's and not physicians in general.

You should have told him that most Pharmacists are failed Pre-med students, that would have shut him up.

 

[carwreck]

You should have told him that most Pharmacists are failed Pre-med students, that would have shut him up.

 

[gasapple]

Is a D.O. =====> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0vyx9sa99E[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Lokhtar]

I agree that it's hard to generalize.

Here's a criteria you should apply to selecting ANY medical school, allopathic or osteopathic: look closely at the rotations sites.

If the school does not have its own hospital, this is a pretty good reason to knock it off your list. Many schools that don't have their own hospital have "relationships" with community hospitals and "understandings" with tertiary care centers. But the fact is that you will be either scrambling to find rotations sites for your second half of medical school, rotating at places lacking the volume and diversity to make you the physician you want to be, or spending a fortune travelling around the country like a vagabond for two years.

If the school does have its own hospital, what is the hospital like? Folks obsess over the minutia of the first two years (class sizes, PBL, grades, etc.) but at the end of the day, you largely learn the material on your own. You read, you study. That goes out the window in years three and four. Make sure your home hospital has the rotations, volume and diversity that you want.

Again, this applies to DO and to MD. I know of several DO programs that have their own hospitals. But I also know that the only DO program I was considering did the vagabond thing for the clinical years so I dropped it.

Agree with everything. I believe MSUCOM, OUCOM, and NYCOM are very good about that. PCOM does not have its own hospital, but PCOM is insanely good, and you won't have any trouble getting fantastic opportunities around philly.

I've heard some bad things about many of the of the other DO schools and their 3rd/4th years though.

 

[notdeadyet]

You should have told him that most Pharmacists are failed Pre-med students, that would have shut him up.

... and most Carribean students are failed osteopaths ...
... and most osteopaths are failed allopathic students ...
... and most state school med students are failed Top 20 med students ...
... and most Top 20 med students wish they were going to Harvard.

Honestly, folks, the elitism thing has got to go. It's a bad attitude to have even when you've arrived (someday, knock wood), but to be smug before you're even there is just sad.

 

[gasapple]

... and most Carribean students are failed osteopaths ...
... and most osteopaths are failed allopathic students ...
... and most state school med students are failed Top 20 med students ...
... and most Top 20 med students wish they were going to Harvard.

Honestly, folks, the elitism thing has got to go. It's a bad attitude to have even when you've arrived (someday, knock wood), but to be smug before you're even there is just sad.

You're absolutely correct. Unfortunately, it's a lesser component of human nature and I believe it correlates roughly with maturity.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjmdpI_NSyk[/YOUTUBE]

 

[patzan]

Note chief resident: http://www.shmc.org/index.php/page/613

And anyone who is familiar with radiology residencies knows that SHMC is not a top, or even middle, radiology program.

How do you know? Interviewed at them?

No, that's just the point. I knew not to. Take a few minutes, go through some radiology program websites and look at the top, oh, let's say every medical school ranked by US News. Get back to me with the number of DO radiology residents you find there. Then go out and find some sweet jobs in radiology and make a few calls. Ask them if they would prefer to recruit someone from one of those schools, or a DO residency.

I'm just saying...(you can get away with saying anything if you're "just sayin'").

 

[Nasrudin]

UMDNJSOM is affiliated with their own hospital system. At NYCOM you can do all of your rotations at a single hospital in the metropolitan area if you choose or you can do your rotations at different hospitals all within a 10 mile radius. Perhaps with schools like WVSOM you can't do this. I suggest you do some research or speak with some experienced people before making generalizations and further misinforming the curious pre-meds on this board.

I hear you. I'm using a rough sandlot calculus. I don't want any static, but i appreciate the opportunity to explore my thoughts on the issue. NYCOM is one of the most expensive medical schools in the union. My position is simply that they should therefore provide a superior or at least favorably marketable result for their students. I remain unconvinced that this is the case. But I agree elitism is damaging to the enterprise of human potential in general. I will be more cautious in the future. Besides....My mind is made up and you can expect no more provocations from me.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Belittling other educations in an attempt to defend your education as others belittle it smacks of irony, no?

Taking pot shots at alternative educations makes those who take pot shots at osteopathic medicine feel its all right.

Hahah ... I'm glad someone mentioned this. My point isn't that one field of study is superior to the other, more the fact that they were clearly commenting outside of their field. I wouldn't sit here and bag on lawyers graduating from a for profit law school because I know nothing about the quality of their education, nor would I be foolish enough to make broad statements based upon no real fact.

Also, I think an MD taking a 'pot shot' at a DO (which are both recognized by the AMA) is worldssssss different than me making comments about chiropractors etc.

 

[Instatewaiter]

There are NUMEROUS MD schools that I'm sure have less than steller sites, but nothing is brought up against this because people make it into a 'DO schools have poor sites' instead of ' this specific MEDICAL school has poor rotation' whether it is DO or MD.

Name one.