MD vs DO war

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EuroPhysician said:
Everyone knows what an MD is, its the most traditional route to becoming a physician. Osteopathy was started as an alternative to allopathy, in recent years there is only a minor gap between the two in terms of training. In general the stats of MD applicants and accepted students are much higher than for DOs. The average accepted MCAT of MDs is 30 while DOs ranges from 24 to 26, that is a big difference. Average GPAs are also somewhat lower.

If you have a choice between the two, always take the MD.
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Because the MCAT is the best and only predictor of how a physician will perform in a clinical setting 4-7 years down the road. 🙄

Anyway, I wish everyone would stop using the term "osteopathy" and "osteopath"... please use the terms osteopathic medicine and osteopathic physician, respectively. We no longer use those archaic terms.

Someone mentioned previously that they learned a lot from MD v DO threads. Please tell me you're kidding. There is more bad information in MD v DO threads than in the pre-Iraq intelligence reports.

Like MDs, DOs become excellent physicians. Just ask practicing MDs who aren't 100 years old and you'll understand the reality.
 
Sadly enough, you do see the DO/MD war in Oklahoma. The Tulsa World had several articles recently about issues with funding the DO school's hospital and about a large donation made to the MD school. Reading the comments to the articles sounded a bit like reading SDN. :scared: So no I doubt this plays out in any real practice situations, but it's not just SDN or just premeds.
 
MaximusD said:
Because the MCAT is the best and only predictor of how a physician will perform in a clinical setting 4-7 years down the road.
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It's hardly the only predictor -- or else it would be all med schools require. Believe it or not things like interviews probably tell schools as much about your ability to thrive in a service industry as your ability to do well on tests -- you will need to be accomplished at both. Whether it's the best predictor? Hard to say. Schools certainly use it because there is some correlation between how you do on standardized tests and how you will do on the boards which in tern correlates to how well you will match and so on. Does that make you a better doctor? Kind of depends on how you define doctoring, but certainly from the patient perspective there are more important things than test scores. It's actually an interesting question, and pretty clear that there has been a move away from purely high test scoring science majors to more diverse applicants, probably for the better.

People choose allo because of better specialty opportunities, or perhaps they aren't excited about alternative philosophies. But whether you become a better doctor or not depends more on what you do after getting into med school, not based on admissions tests.
 
brianmartin said:
The truth is most rational DO's wouldn't mind if the the two equivalent professions, MD and DO, just became one thing: MD.
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There was a time when that was the case in California, but it didn’t necessarily work out that well for all DOs. There have been attempts to swallow all of the DO schools, but the AOA values the differences between DOs and MDs. If you would like to read a history of the relations between the DOs and MDs I’d recommend “The DOs: Osteopathic Medicine in America” by Norman Gevitz. It’s a fascinating story.
 
EuroPhysician said:
The average accepted MCAT of MDs is 30 while DOs ranges from 24 to 26, that is a big difference. Average GPAs are also somewhat lower.

If you have a choice between the two, always take the MD.
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Why? What will you be learning as an MD that I haven't learned as a DO? Just because the people around me scored 4 points lower on the MCAT, how will that effect how I learn medicine?

<waiting for the famous pre-med response talking about how it's difficult for DOs to get competitive residencies>
 
gatorsbball said:
But, would you?
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I don't care what my doctor's MCAT and GPA was just like I don't care what their grade was in 7th grade social studies class - in the end, they went through medical school, residency - and passed the boards & licensure exams.
 
war?

Bring it. I'm a mercenary baby. Who's going to pay me the most?
 
My anecdotal story:

I shadowed a DO last summer and he was the most amazing physician I've ever met. He knew his patients very well, they loved him, trusted him, I could tell that he truly cared for them. It was remarkable. It was what I dreamed of as a child. Pure.

Was he a great physician because he was a DO? Doubt it. He was just an awesome guy.
Was he any less of a physician because he was a DO? Doubt it. The DO didn't seem to affect his practice.

Moral of the story, being a great physician is much more than the two letters after our names. We should strive to be the best physicians that we can rather than worrying about the negligible difference between a DO and an MD.
 
flaahless said:
My anecdotal story:

I shadowed a DO last summer and he was the most amazing physician I've ever met. He knew his patients very well, they loved him, trusted him, I could tell that he truly cared for them. It was remarkable. It was what I dreamed of as a child. Pure.

Was he a great physician because he was a DO? Doubt it. He was just an awesome guy.
Was he any less of a physician because he was a DO? Doubt it. The DO didn't seem to affect his practice.

Moral of the story, being a great physician is much more than the two letters after our names. We should strive to be the best physicians that we can rather than worrying about the negligible difference between a DO and an MD.
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Tell that to this guy

T Forcht Dagi MD, MPH, FACS, FCCM
 
Odd situation happened the other day. I was talking with some younger premeds and answering questions about apps when someone asked me "Why didn't you apply to any DO schools?"

I couldn't help but fumble for an answer.
Anyone experience something similar.
 
wally47 said:
Odd situation happened the other day. I was talking with some younger premeds and answering questions about apps when someone asked me "Why didn't you apply to any DO schools?"

I couldn't help but fumble for an answer.
Anyone experience something similar.
Click to expand...

Wow, I've never been asked that. I think my response would be "because I don't believe in OMT" since that's such a large part of their "philosophy" or whatnot. I'm not bashing it, just saying that it's not for me.

An interesting sidenote is that at my top-10 school pre-med office, they don't encourage you to apply for DO schools unless you are below a certain threshold of grades/mcat. Weird, huh.
 
cruz21 said:
Wow, I've never been asked that. I think my response would be "because I don't believe in OMT" since that's such a large part of their "philosophy" or whatnot. I'm not bashing it, just saying that it's not for me.

An interesting sidenote is that at my top-10 school pre-med office, they don't encourage you to apply for DO schools unless you are below a certain threshold of grades/mcat. Weird, huh.
Click to expand...

I read something the other day and it seems most DO's don't use OMT very often if at all anymore.
 
cruz21 said:
Wow, I've never been asked that. I think my response would be "because I don't believe in OMT" since that's such a large part of their "philosophy" or whatnot. I'm not bashing it, just saying that it's not for me.
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Digital rectal exams aren't really my thing, but they didn't stop me from applying to allopathic medical schools. Most med students I know don't believe in Freud, but he's still taught in the beginning of most Psych courses in medical schools.

There are a lot of good reasons not to apply DO (just like there are a lot of good reasons to apply DO). But the OMT argument is phantom at best. If you believe in everything you're taught in an allopathic medicine program, you're drinking a little too deep from the Kool-Aid.
 
notdeadyet said:
Digital rectal exams aren't really my thing, but they didn't stop me from applying to allopathic medical schools. Most med students I know don't believe in Freud, but he's still taught in the beginning of most Psych courses in medical schools.

There are a lot of good reasons not to apply DO (just like there are a lot of good reasons to apply DO). But the OMT argument is phantom at best. If you believe in everything you're taught in an allopathic medicine program, you're drinking a little too deep from the Kool-Aid.
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The difference is OMT takes up more time than just mentioning Freud in psych. I was open to learning it. But if you are truly anti-OMM, you will probably be miserable having to do it every week and getting tested on it monthly over 2 years.
 
I don't think there is that much of a gap between DOs and MDs today, but in the past it was considerable. A lot DOs these days are accepted into the same residencies as MDs. The media also contributes to ignorance, like the show "House MD" or "Trapper John MD"(most of you are too young to remember this Dr. show).

The MCAT is one of the most important factors in your application, its also the only way that most schools can rank students, because a GPA from one school might not necessarily be equivalent GPA at another. Its harder to keep a good GPA at an Ivy League or other top school where everyone was head of their class than at a local junior college.
 
EuroPhysician said:
I don't think there is that much of a gap between DOs and MDs today, but in the past it was considerable. A lot DOs these days are accepted into the same residencies as MDs. The media also contributes to ignorance, like the show "House MD" or "Trapper John MD"(most of you are too young to remember this Dr. show).

The MCAT is one of the most important factors in your application, its also the only way that most schools can rank students, because a GPA from one school might not necessarily be equivalent GPA at another. Its harder to keep a good GPA at an Ivy League or other top school where everyone was head of their class than at a local junior college.
Click to expand...

Good Point. They could make a spin-off, House DO.
 
This thread is worthless.
 
like, the way I see it, MD and DO are potentially equal, BUT the truth is that the stronger MCAT scores and stuff go for MD first, and DO seems to be the second tier .. but to be entirely honest, so what?! The only reason I'd ever seek out a MD over DO school is because I know the kids at an MD school would likely have higher average MCATs .. but that's not even true in general I bet there are DO schools that would whoop MD schools. In closing, DO = MD, and it's just a different group of people you get when you apply to either one. I heard also that the residency competition is tougher for DO, but only in certain fields .. non-primary care ones I believe (do NOT quote me on that)
 
Law2Doc said:
It's hardly the only predictor -- or else it would be all med schools require. Believe it or not things like interviews probably tell schools as much about your ability to thrive in a service industry as your ability to do well on tests -- you will need to be accomplished at both. Whether it's the best predictor? Hard to say. Schools certainly use it because there is some correlation between how you do on standardized tests and how you will do on the boards which in tern correlates to how well you will match and so on. Does that make you a better doctor? Kind of depends on how you define doctoring, but certainly from the patient perspective there are more important things than test scores. It's actually an interesting question, and pretty clear that there has been a move away from purely high test scoring science majors to more diverse applicants, probably for the better.

People choose allo because of better specialty opportunities, or perhaps they aren't excited about alternative philosophies. But whether you become a better doctor or not depends more on what you do after getting into med school, not based on admissions tests.
Click to expand...

I was being sarcastic. I thought that was clear.

I don't disagree with anything in your post, but I hope it's clear to you at least that there is really nothing about "osteopathic medicine" that is nontraditional or "alternative". Variations of OMT are used by PTs and chiropractors who are routinely referred to by MDs.

Exception: Cranial Manipulation
 
majik1213 said:
like, the way I see it, MD and DO are potentially equal, BUT the truth is that the stronger MCAT scores and stuff go for MD first, and DO seems to be the second tier .. but to be entirely honest, so what?! The only reason I'd ever seek out a MD over DO school is because I know the kids at an MD school would likely have higher average MCATs .. but that's not even true in general I bet there are DO schools that would whoop MD schools. In closing, DO = MD, and it's just a different group of people you get when you apply to either one. I heard also that the residency competition is tougher for DO, but only in certain fields .. non-primary care ones I believe (do NOT quote me on that)
Click to expand...

Wow that signature of yours is some very nice ego masturbation. Enjoy.
 
majik1213 said:
like, the way I see it, MD and DO are potentially equal, BUT the truth is that the stronger MCAT scores and stuff go for MD first, and DO seems to be the second tier .. but to be entirely honest, so what?! The only reason I'd ever seek out a MD over DO school is because I know the kids at an MD school would likely have higher average MCATs .. but that's not even true in general I bet there are DO schools that would whoop MD schools. In closing, DO = MD, and it's just a different group of people you get when you apply to either one. I heard also that the residency competition is tougher for DO, but only in certain fields .. non-primary care ones I believe (do NOT quote me on that)
Click to expand...

You are talking in conflicting circles a little bit there.
 
TouchOfGrey said:
I'm getting pretty tired of "moderators" infringing on my freedom of speech.
Click to expand...

Mods, it would be entertaining to ban this guy for no reason other than to annoy him and mock his silly illusions.

Surely an abuse of power, but entertaining nonetheless.
 
kevster2001 said:
And as for the faculty/student ratios, I just read USNews and saw that most Allos Med school have faculty/student ratios of around 2:1 whlie DOs are around 1:10 or less . Maybe the literature is completely wrong, in which case I stand corrected
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I never understood the faculty-student ratios. It just seems such a worthless metric to me. At my school the classes are taught by committee so we have 10-20 professors teach different lectures for the course. Really it wouldnt be any different if 1 guy taught the class.


MaximusD said:
Anyway, I wish everyone would stop using the term "osteopathy" and "osteopath"... please use the terms osteopathic medicine and osteopathic physician, respectively. We no longer use those archaic terms.
Click to expand...

Is there really any difference? 😕


MaximusD said:
I was being sarcastic. I thought that was clear.
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Yeah I am pretty sure L2D missed that one.
 
Instatewaiter said:
I never understood the faculty-student ratios. It just seems such a worthless metric to me. At my school the classes are taught by committee so we have 10-20 professors teach different lectures for the course. Really it wouldnt be any different if 1 guy taught the class.
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Agreed. I think most medical schools have multiple professors for each course, drawing on their different specializations.

Ironically, most of the hiccups come from this rotating professor system, which many students clamoring for fewer professors teaching to ensure continuity.

So ironically, a better medical education might very well be had at the school with the fewer faculty.

So yeah, useless metric. This ain't undergrad...
 
Law2Doc said:
...and pretty clear that there has been a move away from purely high test scoring science majors to more diverse applicants, probably for the better.
Click to expand...

read as: "I didn't score well on the MCAT."


People choose allo because of better specialty opportunities, or perhaps they aren't excited about alternative philosophies.
Click to expand...

read: "or they don't believe in disproved therapies."
 
patzan said:
Law2Doc said:
...and pretty clear that there has been a move away from purely high test scoring science majors to more diverse applicants, probably for the better.
Click to expand...
read as: "I didn't score well on the MCAT."
Click to expand...
false

patzan said:
Law2Doc said:
People choose allo because of better specialty opportunities, or perhaps they aren't excited about alternative philosophies.
Click to expand...
read: "or they don't believe in disproved therapies."
Click to expand...
true / uncertain
 
You know, one thing that has been practically ignored on every DO v MD thread on SDN is location.

I have lived in parts of the country that are near Osteopathic Medical Schools and parts that are not. One thing I have noticed is that the regions that are not near an Osteopathic Med school, people are more likely to look down on DO's. On the other hand, I live in East Lansing now and Michigan has more DO's per capita than any other state and you rarely hear of anyone looking down on them. Most will ask which you are going to be, but it is more of curiosity than looking for a place for judgement.

People in general will respect doctors based on what they seem them do. Once more DO's spread out in the country and the general populace sees that DO's are equal to MD's than this debate will die once and for all.
 
HrvatskiDoktor said:
On the other hand, I live in East Lansing now and Michigan has more DO's per capita than any other state and you rarely hear of anyone looking down on them. Most will ask which you are going to be, but it is more of curiosity than looking for a place for judgement.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, my experience has been a bit different. I guess it just depends on who you talk to.
 
Ok..Let's have this thread closed. The reality is that every one who applies to DO school is because he did not get in/could not get into an allopathic medical school. Let's not dilute ourselves about the merit of the DO degree, the equality.... blah, blah, blah...

You all know it.

Now, let's just move on...
 
BrainBuff said:
The reality is that every one who applies to DO school is because he did not get in/could not get into an allopathic medical school. Let's not dilute ourselves about the merit of the DO degree, the equality.... blah, blah, blah...
Click to expand...
Don't you think that making sweeping generalizations kinda hurts your argument? Or is everyone actually deluding themselves?
 
BrainBuff said:
Ok..Let's have this thread closed. The reality is that every one who applies to DO school is because he did not get in/could not get into an allopathic medical school. Let's not dilute ourselves about the merit of the DO degree, the equality.... blah, blah, blah...

You all know it.

Now, let's just move on...
Click to expand...

stop making absolute generalization. The OB/Gyn I shadowed got into several East Coast MD school, but decided to attend a DO school near his home instead, and now, he's loaded.
 
BrainBuff said:
Ok..Let's have this thread closed. The reality is that every one who applies to DO school is because he did not get in/could not get into an allopathic medical school. Let's not dilute ourselves about the merit of the DO degree, the equality.... blah, blah, blah...

You all know it.

Now, let's just move on...
Click to expand...
That's silly and pretentious.
 
Debating the merits of DO's and MD's based on their titles is pointless. But looking at things like location--as one poster said--residency placement, clinical training sites, research funding if that's what your into, and the general culture of the schools does have merit.

The Osteopathic brass seem like a uniformly awkward bunch to me. Generalization. Yep. But it makes me uneasy plunking down massive future debt to roll with mid-westerners who ask strange questions about your loyalty to a cause. As if their were other concerns than being a physician. Yep that's another one. The thing is if were talking about broad educational systems generalizations can be useful considering the hugeness of our investments even in applying.

There is internal unease in the sustainability of osteopathic culture. Their graduates train to a large extent at allopathic sites. They do so at significant disadvantage lacking the same institutional infrastructure to support their students.

One has but to peruse the residency boards here to see the many threads that preface the potential opportunities for DO's to penetrate the allopathic systems.

Therefore there is ample reason to weigh this option with more in mind than something vague notion like hollisticism or whatever. And no i agree with notdeadyet it's not like allopathic doctors hold the keys to anything separate, but the infrastructures post 2nd year are significantly different and more variable with osteopathic schools.

It's not comfortable to talk about because people have a lot at stake. But without meaning any disrespect, the differences are real at the training level despite there being no difference at the practice level.
 
I'm wondering, what if everyone who was rejected from Allo schools with above 30 MCAT's applied to DO and got in, raised THAT bar, would the stigma still exist? People argue endlessly and use the MCAT as their basis, but that doesn't speak the truth about the applicants. It does say something else entirely, where the **** did those that were rejected from allo school go if they wanted to become a doctor so badly? Remember, not everyone with a 30+ mcat got into Allo School. And they sure as hell didn't apply DO.

Why don't we put all those applicants into the DO pool (hypothetically) and see the mcat bar raised up; now what?

Thank you. If anything, it proves the determination of applicants in DO school in becoming physicians. 👍
 
.
 
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EuroPhysician said:
Its harder to keep a good GPA at an Ivy League or other top school where everyone was head of their class than at a local junior college.
Click to expand...

That is debatable. 😉 The ivy leagues have fairly well known grade inflation. I think some of the toughest schools are the small liberal arts colleges. You know, the ones that don't get any respect because they are only a couple thousand people max.

Once again, "war" is a bit extreme term to use. This thread really serves no purpose in my eyes. It isn't like west side story with MDs and DOs circling around with scalpels. *nah nah nah nah nah. Nah nah nah nah* MD! *nah nah nah nah nah. Nah nah nah nah* DO!
 
HrvatskiDoktor said:
You know, one thing that has been practically ignored on every DO v MD thread on SDN is location.

I have lived in parts of the country that are near Osteopathic Medical Schools and parts that are not. One thing I have noticed is that the regions that are not near an Osteopathic Med school, people are more likely to look down on DO's. On the other hand, I live in East Lansing now and Michigan has more DO's per capita than any other state and you rarely hear of anyone looking down on them. Most will ask which you are going to be, but it is more of curiosity than looking for a place for judgement.

People in general will respect doctors based on what they seem them do. Once more DO's spread out in the country and the general populace sees that DO's are equal to MD's than this debate will die once and for all.
Click to expand...

I am in a combined MD/DO program in a DO heavy state and at one of our hospitals MDs are the minority. There are DO neurosurgeons, orthopaedic surgeons, general surgeons, cardiologists, nephrologists, and every other specialty you can think of. Patients sometimes ask me for "manipulation" at which time I point to the "MD" after my name and say, "We don't do that kinda' thing."

Other than that there's not too much difference. Some of the DOs do manipulation but most don't. Some "believe" in it, most don't. I did accidently walk into a creepy Grand Rounds on Cranial Manipulation or something like that once.

Osteopaths in Europe are more like chiropractors and are, like chiropractors, complete quacks. The Europeans are ravenous consumers of quackery, even more so than Americans.
 
MossPoh said:
Once again, "war" is a bit extreme term to use. This thread really serves no purpose in my eyes. It isn't like west side story with MDs and DOs circling around with scalpels. *nah nah nah nah nah. Nah nah nah nah* MD! *nah nah nah nah nah. Nah nah nah nah* DO!
Click to expand...

It isn't? 😕 😡
 
TouchOfGrey said:
I'm getting pretty tired of "moderators" infringing on my freedom of speech.
Click to expand...

I got to that post in this thread and my head exploded so I quit reading 🙂
 
just came in to say...

ib4l
 
I think that in practice, there is not really a difference between a MD and a DO. It's like that old joke - "What do you call a med school student who graduates at the bottom of his class?" "Doctor" They are all doctors in the end, and can do the same jobs.

That being said, I prefer to go allo because the unwashed, uneducated masses probably have no idea what a DO is, but because of TV shows they know what a MD is. I have this image in my head of working at the hospital, and having some old lady say "what the hell is a DO? I want to see a REAL doctor!"
 
MDs, DOs and the rest of healthcare professionals should use this energy to fight Walmart before we start seeing new walmart hospitals around!
 
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