MD vs DO. what is different?

[virilep]

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Hi all, First off, let me say thanks for looking at this thread. It's important to me to figure this out. My ultimate goal is to become an AF physician. However, I can approach is through a MD or DO degree. What is the different between the two like promotion eligibility or even pay differences in bonuses and such. Also, can cheifs of departments be DOs? Also, does promotion go faster is you have your MBA degree. I know I'm asking too many Q's for one thread, but whatever your thoughts are, it'll be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

 

[Globus P]

I asked that question many times too before I decided to go DO. I talked to many military docs, both MD and DO. Promotions, pay, career potiential are all the same. The military doesn't distinguish between DO or MD, both are physicians and that's how the military sees it. I'm told nearly 35% of all military physicians are DOs.

I have not heard any military physicians say that being a DO versus an MD in the military has negative reprocussions, nor should it.

Hopefully the others in this forum can verify this perception.

 

[texdrake]

From what I heard it really doesn't matter. I can tell you though that one of my instructors (a DO) just left DMU to take a commission in the Air Force. She was commissioned as a Lt. Colonel. She will be promoted to Colonel in 12 months and become head of the Nephrology department of the Air Force.

 

[Mirror Form]

Hi all, First off, let me say thanks for looking at this thread. It's important to me to figure this out. My ultimate goal is to become an AF physician. However, I can approach is through a MD or DO degree. What is the different between the two like promotion eligibility or even pay differences in bonuses and such. Also, can cheifs of departments be DOs? Also, does promotion go faster is you have your MBA degree. I know I'm asking too many Q's for one thread, but whatever your thoughts are, it'll be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

Given the choice, I think it's always safer to go with MD over DO. Being a DO may or may not be a disadvantage, so why take the chance? For example, let's say you decide to apply for a competitive residency in the AF. The DO degree might hinder you depending on the program's faculty.

 

[Kujo]

Given the choice, I think it's always safer to go with MD over DO. Being a DO may or may not be a disadvantage, so why take the chance? For example, let's say you decide to apply for a competitive residency in the AF. The DO degree might hinder you depending on the program's faculty.

well..I beg to differ..you're chances of landing a competitive residency within the militay is infinitely greater than in the civilian side...I'd get your facts straight if I were you

 

[edmadison]

well..I beg to differ..you're chances of landing a competitive residency within the militay is infinitely greater than in the civilian side...I'd get your facts straight if I were you

You are misunderstanding what the last poster said. He's not saying that it's harder to match as a DO in the military than civilian (which as you point out is false). He's saying that, in his opinion, all things being equal you may be better off as an MD than a DO applying for the same residency slot within the military (which may or may not be true).

Ed

 

[Shinken]

Hi all, First off, let me say thanks for looking at this thread. It's important to me to figure this out. My ultimate goal is to become an AF physician. However, I can approach is through a MD or DO degree. What is the different between the two like promotion eligibility or even pay differences in bonuses and such. Also, can cheifs of departments be DOs? Also, does promotion go faster is you have your MBA degree. I know I'm asking too many Q's for one thread, but whatever your thoughts are, it'll be greatly appreciated. Thanks all.

I don't think your medical career as a military physician will be hindered at all for becoming a DO. Lt. General Ronald Blanck, DO is a former Surgeon General of the Army. His DO title didn't seem to hinder him.

http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ado_prominent

 

[ArmyDoc1999]

I don't think your medical career as a military physician will be hindered at all for becoming a DO. Lt. General Ronald Blanck, DO is a former Surgeon General of the Army. His DO title didn't seem to hinder him.

http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ado_prominent

I'm glad someone brought this up. (And to the OP, LTG is the highest rank you can make in the Medical Corps of ANY service. There is only one three-star general in the medical corps of each: Army, Air Force, and Navy. That individual is the Surgeon General of that service. No hindrance here!) And to speak more generally, the military was really the driving force in DO's getting the "legitimacy" we now enjoy. While the rest of the country had either never heard of us, or thought us to be "quacks", all the military cared about was that we were licensed physicians who could perform any function that an MD could. The fact that the letters after our names were different didn't matter one bit. That holds true today. You are going to get matched to a residency and promoted through the ranks based on your merits as a PHYSICIAN, not the acronym after your name. Go where you feel called to go, whether that be MD, or DO.

 

[thenavysurgeon]

the military loves to save money, and both MDs and DOs with HPSP obligations come equally cheap, as far as the miltary sees it.

the real difference is how the 'outside world' views the DO degree. you'll find a large number of DOs in rural practice, and in less desirable locations, since these jobs are less desirable and less competitive.

go to an allopathic school, get your MD, and you'll never have to explain your degree to anyone.

i'm sure this post will raise some hackles...

life's tough.

 

[Mirror Form]

I don't think your medical career as a military physician will be hindered at all for becoming a DO. Lt. General Ronald Blanck, DO is a former Surgeon General of the Army. His DO title didn't seem to hinder him.

http://www.osteopathic.org/index.cfm?PageID=ado_prominent

I never said a DO degree would inhibit getting promoted and moving up in the world of military medicine. But when virilep applies for GME in the airforce, a DO degree could very likely be a disadvantage. For example, the airforce only has three slots for ophtho training within the air force (and six deferrments). There are tons of applicants for these positions. So, if viriliep decides that they want to do ophtho (and another similarly competitive residency), coming from a DO school could very likely be seen as a less desireable by certain faculty who make the decisions on who to accept.

So, I guess my advice would be, since you do not yet know what field you want to enter, why take the chance that your DO degree might hinder you?

 

[Howard Roark]

good luck

 

[kaikai128]

I, myself, would go with the philosophy and school that appeals the most to you. Pick a school you will be happy at for the next four years. That is all that really matters in the end...

 

[evines]

well..I beg to differ..you're chances of landing a competitive residency within the militay is infinitely greater than in the civilian side...I'd get your facts straight if I were you

Sigh. This quote is wrong in so many ways.

 

[iatrosB]

I, myself, would go with the philosophy and school that appeals the most to you. Pick a school you will be happy at for the next four years. That is all that really matters in the end...

I couldn't agree more. So many pre-meds get caught up in the MD vs DO thing that they lose out on a school that might be a better fit than them. In both civilian and military, MDs and DOs are the same. Go to the school that fits you best be it MD or DO. I have the numbers to get into an MD program but will probably go to a DO school because it fits best for me geographically.

 

[Mirror Form]

I couldn't agree more. So many pre-meds get caught up in the MD vs DO thing that they lose out on a school that might be a better fit than them. In both civilian and military, MDs and DOs are the same. Go to the school that fits you best be it MD or DO. I have the numbers to get into an MD program but will probably go to a DO school because it fits best for me geographically.

If you like the DO school more, then go for it. DO's and MD's are indeed be the same in most respects. But coming from an allopathic school, I can guarantee you that DO's are still looked down upon by many MD's (life's not fair!). So don't complain when you find your options for residency limited by choosing the DO route.

 

[VentdependenT]

As a DO you are 99% as good as any MD!

 

[virilep]

Guys, I'm definately not asking which one is better in any respect. My only consideration is the options that i have in the military and how is might be advatangeous or hamper my pursuit to increase rank and responsibility. Just wondering if anyone knows. Thanks for everyone responding to this thread it's important for other people to know.

 

[iatrosB]

If you like the DO school more, then go for it. DO's and MD's are indeed be the same in most respects. But coming from an allopathic school, I can guarantee you that DO's are still looked down upon by many MD's (life's not fair!). So don't complain when you find your options for residency limited by choosing the DO route.

I have no fear in regards to obtaining a residency. As far as MD's looking down on DO's, that is those physician's issue. They have insecurity complexes so they take it out on their partners. There are bad MD's and there are bad DO's, but to look down on a physician soley based on the letters behind their name is foolish indeed.
Ranting aside, to the OP, options abound for DO's. Don't heed the nay-sayers.

 

[DrBloodmoney]

The chief of my department is DO. I don't see any problem with becoming a DO, but many of the DOs that I have worked with, seem somewhat defensive of their choice of becoming a DO. Just an observation, without any judgement behind it.

 

[Teufelhunden]

As a DO you are 99% as good as any MD!

Let's not push it....I was told 97%

 

[TXMilitaryMD]

If you like the DO school more, then go for it. DO's and MD's are indeed be the same in most respects. But coming from an allopathic school, I can guarantee you that DO's are still looked down upon by many MD's (life's not fair!). So don't complain when you find your options for residency limited by choosing the DO route.

Please get rid of your attitude...the guys at BAMC are cool..there are only a few that I've noticed that can be pricks...Scribbick is a good guy and can see through almost anybody...there are many DOs at BAMC..the chief of neurosurgery, staff cardiologists, several cards fellows, nephro, pulmonary, neuro, surgery, half of the derm residents are DOs, derm faculty, ENT, I could go on...bottom line...BAMC (WHMC) does not want you if you have an issue with DOs 👎

And to the USHUS person who hasn't even started med school yet...please..get a clue and then start posting on this board

I know who you are...the internet is not as anonymous as you think

 

[r90t]

They have a triservice, objective grading system for selecting physicians for residency. The DO at the top of his class/board scores will get more objective "points" than the guy in the middle of his class, regardless of MD/DO. They don't differentiate between degrees. Triservice is done to minimize subjective grading of candidates.

 

[evines]

And to the USHUS person who hasn't even started med school yet...please..get a clue and then start posting on this board

I know who you are...the internet is not as anonymous as you think

I really hope this wasn't in response to my post.

 

[ArmyDoc1999]

I really hope this wasn't in response to my post.

I hate to say it, but I think it was.

 

[Mirror Form]

Please get rid of your attitude...the guys at BAMC are cool..there are only a few that I've noticed that can be pricks...Scribbick is a good guy and can see through almost anybody...there are many DOs at BAMC..the chief of neurosurgery, staff cardiologists, several cards fellows, nephro, pulmonary, neuro, surgery, half of the derm residents are DOs, derm faculty, ENT, I could go on...bottom line...BAMC (WHMC) does not want you if you have an issue with DOs 👎

And to the USHUS person who hasn't even started med school yet...please..get a clue and then start posting on this board

I know who you are...the internet is not as anonymous as you think

LOL, the only issue I have with DO's is that some of them occasionally act blatantly insecure like yourself. My previous posts in no way indicated that I look down on DO's. All I said was the truth, which is it might make it difficult to obtain competitive residencies going through the DO route. You guys can keep telling yourselves that it isn't true, but it's basically an accepted fact in a lot of competitive institutions. A DO degree probably won't hurt you . . . but it might. So all else being equal, my personal recommendation would be to go MD.

I'm well aware that Scribbick doesn't descrimate against DO's since one of the army ophtho residents at Brooke is a DO. Maybe you should read the whole thread and figure out that the person who asked isn't army, but air force. There are only three ophtho slots in the entire air force for over 10 (possibly a lot more) applicants, and scribbick does not pick the air force people. I don't know the air force department head, but there's a possibility he may be like some of the older MD's that prefer accepting other MD's. Also, say you don't get selected for one of the few air force slots, there are still twice as many air force civilian deferral slots for ophtho. But all of well known and more respected ophtho civilian programs take almost all MD's.

Don't get me wrong, I think DO's medical school training is pretty much the same as MD's medical school training. But until things with resideny applications change, I would be careful about going to a DO school if you want to go into certain specialties or presitigious programs. I can understand why some people might not be concerned about the risk, but it's a consideration most people should be informed about.

BTW, I'm pretty sure I know who you are too, and you definitely aren't an occuloplastics fellow who trained as bascom.

 

[Informer]

hmm, does anyone know who I am? 🙂

 

[evines]

I hate to say it, but I think it was.

😀 There are few things that set me off on these boards, but one is a personal attack directed towards anyone who doesn't deserve it. The "I'd get your facts straight if I were you" comment after a post that was irrelevant set me off. Attacking me for my med school status (if that's what just happened) was in like fashion. Kinda similar to attacking DO's just because they're DO's, eh?

 

[virilep]

Come on guys, I didn't start this thread to start attacks and stuff. Just to get some good info. The best info so far goes to r90t. I wanted to know about the differences in pay grades. like if you're a certain board certified versus the other. We all are/ will be physicians, let's try to act like it. thanks!

 

[DD214_DOC]

LOL, the only issue I have with DO's is that some of them occasionally act blatantly insecure like yourself.

This is what the DO bashers constantly use in response to a defense of the profession. When will you guys realize it isn't about insecurity, it is about stopping the spread of false information and damaging subjective opinions?

By the way, look at his name -- he might actually be a MD.

 

[texdrake]

JKD, I see we share an interest in the Family Guy and the military. Life is good, I think I may name my next dog Brian

 

[r90t]

I'll also pitch in for the navy side that we match for pgy-1 slots during med school, then reapply for residency during internship if we want to go straight through. With that said, certain residencies will not even consider an intern application MD or DO. This would be radiology and radiation oncology (I applied for both as an intern, duh) optho, EM, ENT (at San Diego, anyway) as they have plenty of qualifed flight surgeons, DMOs, GMOs or board certified physicians applying for these programs. Fitness reports do add on to the overall objective scoring. If you have a "do not promote this physician" fitrep, you likely won't match to a competative residency. Also, publications add objective points if they are in a peer reviewed magazine. One journal publication can nullify a bad GPA or board scores.
As for MD/DO thing, I'm a DO and when I applied for my full time out service program slot, I beat out my direct boss (physician in my chain of command) who applied for the same residency and is an MD. This happened because my objective score was higher than his when all things were considered. He is a great physician and a good friend with more time in the navy as a physician, and I was sure he had the spot. He even wrote me the required letter of recommendation for applying.

From what my specialty advisor past on to me, all services are ranked by other physicians for residency programs.

 

[GMO_52]

OK, don't want to piss anyone off (especially you Rob), but, the question is whether a DO degree might hinder you inside or outside of the military system. This isn't about which system produces better doctors because that is impossible to prove. We all know docs from across the bell curve from both systems.
I've seen no evidence of DO training being a hinderance within the military but I grew up around a competitive training program at an MD institution and there was definitely an anti-DO bias in the staff.
I guess what I'm saying is that, if you might decide to leave the military before residency, I'd recommend an MD program, otherwise no difference. Also, if you're going to be insecure when you encounter biased folks, then pick MD (but not USUHS, cause no one's ever heard of it).

Rob, cool to see ya a couple of weeks ago. When you get back to SoCal, you're gonna have to come down.

 

[r90t]

B.
It was a surprise to see you up here! I had to do a double take! I'm glad all is working out for you. I'll be back down south in a couple of months and will give you a buzz to go throw back some cold ones.

I have posted this in the DO forum in the past. I believe you may be at a disadvantage applying to a competitive civilian program (MD) as a DO. You should take the USMLE and do whatever it takes to shine if you are a DO student. Research and publications will help. Expecting to get into a top MD program using COMLEX scores alone is reaching. If you are considering a highly sought after or a small number of residency programs, I think you would be better served by graduating from an allopathic institution. When I was interviewing in the Rad Onc trail, the DO vs MD wasn't asked about, but I'm sure one or two of the interviewers (MD/PhDs) were wondering if I was going to "crack" patients.

Military residencies, IMO, do not favor the MD vs DO degree due to the objective grading system used when selecting applicants. If they did not use this, it would be a very unfavorable environment to match into your program as a 3 star boss (command influence) could call the residency program and recommend that Dr. X be taken into the program or your next duty station would be Kuwait.

 

[Neuron]

As for MD/DO thing, I'm a DO and when I applied for my full time out service program slot, I beat out my direct boss (physician in my chain of command) who applied for the same residency and is an MD. This happened because my objective score was higher than his when all things were considered. He is a great physician and a good friend with more time in the navy as a physician, and I was sure he had the spot. He even wrote me the required letter of recommendation for applying.

Uh, let me see if I get this... you got an LOR from an MD who was your competitor for the same residency slot?!

Why? Can he even write it - conflict of interest issues?

 

[GMO_52]

Uh, let me see if I get this... you got an LOR from an MD who was your competitor for the same residency slot?!

Why? Can he even write it - conflict of interest issues?

Actually, not only can he write it, you are required to get a letter from your physician supervisor (in my case, I have to get one from him and from my line supervisor). These are really a formality designed to ensure the board you haven't done anything really bad.

Rob, totally agree with your post. I had an interesting time up there, spent most of it with Mike. Got a patient in DKA dumped on me off a cruiser as they departed (we were staying another day).

 

[r90t]

As i said, he is a great guy. He put a line in the letter saying that there may be a conflict of interest as he was applying for the same program, then wrote the best letter possible. He got a civilian rad onc position and is happy of the outcome.

 

[rcdrury]

I'm glad someone brought this up. (And to the OP, LTG is the highest rank you can make in the Medical Corps of ANY service. There is only one three-star general in the medical corps of each: Army, Air Force, and Navy. That individual is the Surgeon General of that service. No hindrance here!) And to speak more generally, the military was really the driving force in DO's getting the "legitimacy" we now enjoy. While the rest of the country had either never heard of us, or thought us to be "quacks", all the military cared about was that we were licensed physicians who could perform any function that an MD could. The fact that the letters after our names were different didn't matter one bit. That holds true today. You are going to get matched to a residency and promoted through the ranks based on your merits as a PHYSICIAN, not the acronym after your name. Go where you feel called to go, whether that be MD, or DO.

The military, while always demanding competence, has always been willing to compromise on medical credentials. Family practice is dominated by PAs and nurse practitioners, and routine nursing duties are rarely performed by military RNs. In military medicine, how could the difference between MD and DO designations be considered significant?

Line officers in the professional specialties, namely medical and legal, are not considered line military officers at all. They are technicians and nothing more. The officer rank is bestowed as a matter of recognition and professional courtesy; period. That is why, unlike any other service member of officer rank; medical, legal, and chaplain officers have no authority or jurisdiction outside of their specific chain of command and limited to their respective specialties. If General Blanck were to stop a random private and demanded he get a haircut, the private could respectfully refuse and that would be the end of the matter. A general officer in the medical corps got there primary due to his administrative prowess, not his medical expertise.

 

[faith2]

My recruiter says that the army does not care MD or DO. In fact the DO school I was accepted at (NOVA) all he did was talk positively about them because alot of army doctors that were great physicians graduated from there.

 

[dwb8p]

The officer rank is bestowed as a matter of recognition and professional courtesy; period. That is why, unlike any other service member of officer rank; medical, legal, and chaplain officers have no authority or jurisdiction outside of their specific chain of command and limited to their respective specialties. If General Blanck were to stop a random private and demanded he get a haircut, the private could respectfully refuse and that would be the end of the matter. A general officer in the medical corps got there primary due to his administrative prowess, not his medical expertise.

This is largely inaccurate. Yes, most medical officers do not assume command positions; however, some do. Additionally, all commissioned officers have authority under the UCMJ, which extends to outside of their chain of command. The General vs private situation is laughable and completely untrue. However, the last sentence is fairly accurate.

 

[dru2002]

this is largely inaccurate. Yes, most medical officers do not assume command positions; however, some do. Additionally, all commissioned officers have authority under the ucmj, which extends to outside of their chain of command. The general vs private situation is laughable and completely untrue. However, the last sentence is fairly accurate.

+1

 

[Slevin]

If General Blanck were to stop a random private and demanded he get a haircut, the private could respectfully refuse and that would be the end of the matter.

I would pay good money to see a private ignore a generals order; especially if the general took down his/her name and unit. Imagine the **** that would roll down that hill

 

[i want out]

I would pay good money to see a private ignore a generals order; especially if the general took down his/her name and unit. Imagine the **** that would roll down that hill

Lets get further off track...

it wouldn't surprise me if a Medical Corps flag officer were to tell a very junior enlisted person to get a haircut, but it is rather unorthodox to give orders outside of your chain of command.

The proper way to approach this, is for the officer to contact someone of the same rank in the junior enlisted persons chain of command and mention that they have some troops (name and rank of offending person may or may not be inserted here) that are not within regs. It is neither appropriate, nor will it win friends or influence people to go either above or below your level in another chain of command.

as I mentioned above, though, it wouldn't surprise me for a medical corps officer to either not know or observe this protocol. I certainly wouldn't have known it when I showed up fresh out of a civilian internship.


back on track, Being a DO won't change pay or benefits in the .mil, and is unlikely to effect residency selection. The same can't be said for civilian world. Being a DO may mean that there are some dinosaurs out there that don't think your good enough for their program. But you may also find that there are some good and big name programs that are just fine with it, and all you need is one training program that fits you.

I remember seeing a statistic about 10 years ago, that compared average salary, and broke DO and MD out into seperate categorys. They suggested that the DO salary averaged about 10 grand a year more than the MD.

all things being equal, I would go to an MD program just for the benefit of not having to explain what a DO is. Otherwise, the two degrees are far to similar for there to be any discernible difference as far as I am concerned.

i want out (of IRR)

 

[AFATexan]

A lot of good info in this thread, and as a DO student I do agree that it is more difficult landing competitive CIVILIAN residencies and even clinical rotations. As an Air Force member for nine years, however, I can tell you that there is no difference in incentive pay,promotion rate,board certification pay, or treatment of physicians based on their degree. I have worked in several AF and Army hospitals/clinics over the years and have noticed no hard feelings between DO's and MD's like what exists in some civilian institutions. No one even attempts to tell the difference. Hell, in the military there's hardly any way of pointing out who is a PA versus a family doc in any given clinic. But that's all in PRACTICE.

I had face-to-face interviews with the AF's three top surgical programs in the past few months and I can tell you that some of the staff members did seem to favor allopathic applicants and seemed dissapointed that I did not opt to pay the extra 2 grand to take USMLE step 1 and 2 (which is not reimbursible for DO students since the COMLEX is already required). So I have seen that the bias, though watered down in the military, still exists somewhat. But of course that varies year to year because staff changes so frequently at military programs.

But as mentioned before, in the end it boils down to your points. You get points for your board scores based on your rank against the national average for the military application, not whether it is COMLEX or USMLE. You get points for your GPA based on the 4.0 scale regardless whether your transcript says allopathic or osteopathic at the top. And you get points for published medical research coming from all institutions, even undergraduate (I only know this because I fall in this category). The only place you might fall short as a DO in the points system is under the "potential for successful practice as specialist and career officer" if the staff ranking you happens to be one of those fabled MD's with a bias. But after you finish your GMO tour when you don't get selected that staff member will likely be in the sandbox or at some other military program and the bias will fade away like a blue moon or halley's comet-only to return again at some point in the future at completely random intervals-unlike a blue moon or halley's comet. I personally met with the CHIEF of the Air Force residency selection board, the head hancho in all things AF residencies, and although he was an MD he seemed very easy going and happy just to have another ambitious surgical candidate choosing a military career.

And here is my humble opinion as a military DO student approaching the match without even ranking "civilian deferred" in my list: Go wherever the hell you want. In the end you're a doc, and you'll be treated like a doc unless you try to practice overseas as a DO. Achieve a good GPA, do well on the boards, and do research if you want. I personally attend Nova in sunny Ft. Lauderdale and I am extremely happy with my choice. Not only is it a good education and clinical experience but I also live 1/2 mile from the beach and go fishing and diving for lobster in my free time. The didactic education at all med schools are regulated by licensing boards and are virtually identical between DO's and MD's with a little more musculoskeletal emphasis in osteopathic schools. You will have more research opportunities at allopathic schools so there's a benefit there if research is your game. Your clinical rotations are where you will really learn medicine prior to residency and that is based on your LOCATION. In south florida I have had the opportunity to work in some huge hospitals and see **** that most docs in other areas won't see their entire career. In one of my interviews at WHMC the chief of surgery spent the entire time prodding me for stories about my month spent working at ryder trauma center in downtown miami as he leaned forward in his seat salivating with a gleam in his eye.

So if you want to be rich/famous and have procedures or colostomy bags named after you go for the MD route, participate in lots of research, and get out and go civilian after your commitment. If all you want is to serve the members of your nation's armed forces with your medical career and attempt to better the lives of those selfless heroes through active duty to retirement then I honestly believe that ANYONE will pick up on that passion and recognize it as a competitive edge...DO or MD.

Hope that helps virilep...good luck.