md with no residency?

[kish carlton]

I have an mba and have recently considered that I may have become an MD for all the wrong reasons (I wanted the education but hate the clincals of it all) I thought being an MD would command respect...I guess it goes back to my insecurities....anyway, I just completed the steps but what I really want is to be healthcare management...maybe CEO or such....my question is what happens and what r the credentials for someone who stops @ the MD and does no residency? can they practice medicine in any limited capacity? the way I figured is that mba+MD= CEO..am I totally off base?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Yes having an MD and an MBA would make you CEO. Guaranteed.

 

[Law2Doc]

I have an mba and have recently considered that I may have become an MD for all the wrong reasons (I wanted the education but hate the clincals of it all) I thought being an MD would command respect...I guess it goes back to my insecurities....anyway, I just completed the steps but what I really want is to be healthcare management...maybe CEO or such....my question is what happens and what r the credentials for someone who stops @ the MD and does no residency? can they practice medicine in any limited capacity? the way I figured is that mba+MD= CEO..am I totally off base?

Yes, you are totally off base, as the prior poster's sarcasm suggested. If you never worked as an MD you are pretty much forever going to be explaining why, in every job interview for the rest of your life. It is a big negative - makes you look like a degree collector. It's very hard to sell that you didn't like something without having tried it. And most reputable MBA programs require work experience before admission -- the joint MD/MBAs often tend to be an exception to this as it is presupposed that you will have useful residency work experience before you use that degree. MBA is not a professional degree -- it is meant to be an upgrade of existing business skills. So folks who have worked can use it for upward mobility within their industry. Folks who go into healthcare management tend to do well if they come from (1) WORKING IN business or (2) WORKING IN medicine. Coming from school but not a work environment generally means you have yet to hone any useful skills (teamwork, leadership, etc). Expect to start at the bottom of any organization that will hire you with degrees but no experience, and in most cases expect to peak in middle management. If you are lucky maybe someday you will get to meet the CEO, but probably won't be one. Good luck.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Is it me or has there been a rash lately of posts about not wanting to practice or wondering how to find a job paying six figures without working?

At any rate, I agree with Law2Doc. Without clinical experience in either the business or medical world, I would imagine your competitiveness in the job market is quite limited. It DOES look immature and unprofessional to earn a degree and decide, without even using it, that the field is not for you.

In regards to your last question, if you have an unrestricted medical license, you can practice medicine - there is nothing legally stopping you. Practically however, many insurance companies, hospitals, HMOs, etc will refuse to pay for and/or hire someone who is not Board Eligible (which requires completing a residency). For most people, doing things like working in an Urgent Care center, or running a Botox practice are not satisfying. If you don't like clinical work, there are always practice options in fields with less clinical exposure or a career in research.

 

[Husky85]

Not to escape the question at hand, but why do you hate the clinicals?

There are some schools that just tend to have hired attendings that are repellent and just out to show their superiority. Also, the clinical medicine varies a lot from field to field.

If either of these is the case you should look around (via away rotations or just by shadowing in various departments within your system) at other areas. Also you could tinker around with some research, as was mentioned above, and see how you like that.

 

[sirus_virus]

I have an mba and have recently considered that I may have become an MD for all the wrong reasons (I wanted the education but hate the clincals of it all) I thought being an MD would command respect...I guess it goes back to my insecurities....anyway, I just completed the steps but what I really want is to be healthcare management...maybe CEO or such....my question is what happens and what r the credentials for someone who stops @ the MD and does no residency? can they practice medicine in any limited capacity? the way I figured is that mba+MD= CEO..am I totally off base?

Just bite the residency bullet, get a board certification, and then you might be in real business.

mba+MD != CEO.
Smart businessman = CEO.

 

[Yehosh]

I have an mba and have recently considered that I may have become an MD for all the wrong reasons (I wanted the education but hate the clincals of it all) I thought being an MD would command respect...I guess it goes back to my insecurities....anyway, I just completed the steps but what I really want is to be healthcare management...maybe CEO or such....my question is what happens and what r the credentials for someone who stops @ the MD and does no residency? can they practice medicine in any limited capacity? the way I figured is that mba+MD= CEO..am I totally off base?

CEO of what? a hospital?

Whatever degrees you may have, it'll be really hard to land such a job in the future without some clinical experience and experience in public health. I have a childhood friend and her dad is a CEO of a major hospital. He has been doing public health for at least a decade now, but started of as an MD, and worked his behind off doing clinical work, advanced to management positions, got his MPH and advanced through the ranks to a CEO position.

Good luck motivating yourself for the MCAT

 

[sirus_virus]

CEO of what? a hospital?

Whatever degrees you may have, it'll be really hard to land such a job in the future without some clinical experience and experience in public health. I have a childhood friend and her dad is a CEO of a major hospital. He has been doing public health for at least a decade now, but started of as an MD, and worked his behind off doing clinical work, advanced to management positions, got his MPH and advanced through the ranks to a CEO position.

Good luck motivating yourself for the MCAT

He/she is already an MD according to the post. You are right, there is no easy path to becoming a CEO.

 

[kish carlton]

Yes, you are totally off base, as the prior poster's sarcasm suggested. If you never worked as an MD you are pretty much forever going to be explaining why, in every job interview for the rest of your life. It is a big negative - makes you look like a degree collector. It's very hard to sell that you didn't like something without having tried it. And most reputable MBA programs require work experience before admission -- the joint MD/MBAs often tend to be an exception to this as it is presupposed that you will have useful residency work experience before you use that degree. MBA is not a professional degree -- it is meant to be an upgrade of existing business skills. So folks who have worked can use it for upward mobility within their industry. Folks who go into healthcare management tend to do well if they come from (1) WORKING IN business or (2) WORKING IN medicine. Coming from school but not a work environment generally means you have yet to hone any useful skills (teamwork, leadership, etc). Expect to start at the bottom of any organization that will hire you with degrees but no experience, and in most cases expect to peak in middle management. If you are lucky maybe someday you will get to meet the CEO, but probably won't be one. Good luck.

Thanks for the input...I suspected as much but was hoping it wasn't true.

 

[kish carlton]

Is it me or has there been a rash lately of being not wanting to practice or wondering how to find a job paying six figures without working?

At any rate, I agree with Law2Doc. Without clinical experience in either the business or medical world, I would imagine your competitiveness in the job market is quite limited. It DOES look immature and unprofessional to earn a degree and decide, without even using it, that the field is not for you.

In regards to your last question, if you have an unrestricted medical license, you can practice medicine - there is nothing legally stopping you. Practically however, many insurance companies, hospitals, HMOs, etc will refuse to pay for and/or hire someone who is not Board Eligible (which requires completing a residency). For most people, doing things like working in an Urgent Care center, or running a Botox practice are not satisfying. If you don't like clinical work, there are always practice options in fields with less clinical exposure or a career in research.

Thanks for answering with an actual answer to my question..I'm still in the speculating phase of it all right now and am quite ignorant of all the ins and outs

 

[sirus_virus]

I can tell you first hand that the MBA world is not as gravy as it is mysteriously advertised to be on SDN. Everywhere you look some school is selling people an MBA, and there are a lot of people buying it. When I say a lot, I mean A LOT. Unless you have some serious plan, I would not put too much stock in an MBA today. I don't care what negative things you hear about medicine, a board certified MD is still a rare commodity, and will probably open more doors than just an MD+MBA with no residency.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

I can tell you first hand that the MBA world is not as gravy as it is mysteriously advertised to be on SDN. Everywhere you look some school is selling people an MBA, and there are a lot of people buying it. When I say a lot, I mean A LOT. Unless you have some serious plan, I would not put too much stock in an MBA today. I don't care what negative things you hear about medicine, a board certified MD is still a rare commodity, and will probably open more doors than just an MD+MBA with no residency.

exactly...the MD (regardless of the MBA or not) without residency is a rather empty degree.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Thanks for answering with an actual answer to my question..I'm still in the speculating phase of it all right now and am quite ignorant of all the ins and outs

Sure...you might consider checking out the General Residency Forum as there are many threads there about options if you don't complete a residency. Although most are things like boutique practices, research, etc. it may give some more food for thought.

 

[njbmd]

Moving to the General Residency Forum. Interested Allopathic Medical students can follow this thread there and people who are in residency can comment there.

 

[Dr34566]

Keep in mind most of the people on here are planning to do, are doing, or have done a residency and that the opinions you get will be biased as such.

First of all, congratulations on recognizing that you went into medicine for the wrong reasons and that you don't like the clinicals. A lot of people lie to themselves or don't figure this out until much later down the road.

The question then is should you be doing something you don't like?
Residency is a long road, and I think it's hard to justify completing one if you really do not like the work. Still, you'd have to consider your goal of healthcare management.

There are plenty of people working in healthcare management who do not have MDs or MBAs. They started working somewhere. You may have to start where they started, but in terms of education you are at a distinct advantage, having both. I am willing to bet there are healthcare CEOs without MDs. I would agree however there's no easy path to becoming a CEO. The beauty of the business world though is that if you are better than everyone else, you will succeed. The beauty of medicine is that if you work hard, you will succeed.

An MD is still probably the most powerful degree you can have. Whether it's empty without residency or not is up to you. It depends what you do with it.

 

[mjl1717]

exactly...the MD (regardless of the MBA or not) without residency is a rather empty degree.

Yes, the "escape slave labor residency" has quickly and I mean quickly passed thru my mind too. But the above comment is rather TRUE!

 

[radonc]

Thanks for answering with an actual answer to my question..I'm still in the speculating phase of it all right now and am quite ignorant of all the ins and outs

i beg to differ with all these posters.

the fact that you have an MD and MBA is a step up on all the other MBA'ers out there. you dont have to go into hospital management or work for an HMO...you can do banking, r&d, or even marketing.

your MBA has put you on par with most MBA's out there...and your MD gives you a distinct advantage.

however, the ranking of your MBA school does matter in business, however where you got your MD from does not...

although, i would agree with many of the posters out there who say that doing a residency would make you more versatile and attractive to a variety of employers.

and if you want to become a CEO the easiest thing to do is incoporate your own business...

 

[radonc]

exactly...the MD (regardless of the MBA or not) without residency is a rather empty degree.

WRONG.
i know several MD's without MBA's who joined top consulting (BCG) and banking firms (Lehman, Goldman) at the same level that a fresh MBA graduate would (ie associate, 100k+, plus bonus). granted, these people went to good medical schools where non-traditional paths were more common (than in most med schools) and they were able to get contacts from alums.

 

[mgdsh]

WRONG.
i know several MD's without MBA's who joined top consulting (BCG) and banking firms (Lehman, Goldman) at the same level that a fresh MBA graduate would (ie associate, 100k+, plus bonus). granted, these people went to good medical schools where non-traditional paths were more common (than in most med schools) and they were able to get contacts from alums.

radonc, I'd agree with you for the most part, but for most people with out contacts or with out some other type of know-how or job training that MD is an empty degree. Sure it shows accomplishment etc, but its not the MD that really gets most of us a job at the end of the day, its the medical license. So Theoretically in most states all thats required for a medical license is 1 year of training + your 3 steps, but at that point (and depending on which residency you're in) you might as well finish up the last few years of it as the first year is generally the hardest. If for nothing else but for the job security and to show that you've gone through all the training with out 'quitting.'

Let me also add that for most people the MD alone doesn't really get them that many more jobs than what they could have gotten with a bachelors alone. A lot of what you say about your MD friends getting good 100k+ jobs with bonus can be (and I'm not kidding) had after graduating from college. If you go to a top school, you literally can make that kind of money out of undergrad, as long as you're a very strong applicant (and your friends who went to top med schools probably could have fallen into a category like that).

 

[yaah]

Is it me or has there been a rash lately of posts about not wanting to practice or wondering how to find a job paying six figures without working?

I agree - they're all over the place. Not sure whether it is people who are going into medicine who really aren't committed, or people looking for shortcuts, or whatever. It's an awful large time and financial commitment to go into medicine if you aren't going to even use it though. It could probably qualify as a definition of insanity.

 

[gutonc]

Is it me or has there been a rash lately of posts about not wanting to practice or wondering how to find a job paying six figures without working?

And they all seem to come from people w/ a post count of 4.

 

[Faebinder]

And they all seem to come from people w/ a post count of 4.

Probably because residency in the US is becoming more and more competitive each year and there are way more applicants now than first year positions.

 

[mgdsh]

Probably because residency in the US is becoming more and more competitive each year and there are way more applicants now than first year positions.

Or maybe it also has to do with the fact that the outlook for medicine as profession really isn't what it used to be? Or people didn't know what they were getting into? Or the fact that they just didn't like the clinical portions of med school / residency?

There's really probably more than a handful of reasons and it's different per person.

 

[yaah]

Or maybe it also has to do with the fact that the outlook for medicine as profession really isn't what it used to be? Or people didn't know what they were getting into? Or the fact that they just didn't like the clinical portions of med school / residency?

There's really probably more than a handful of reasons and it's different per person.

I think a lot of people don't really have a full understanding of what medicine is, what it entails, and whether it is right for them before they make the plunge. So many people have a one-track mind when they go to college that by the time they actually consider if they're on the right track, they're already in med school and actually having to try to decide what to do with it. By this point their life also may be changing (marriage, family, etc) and they didn't plan for that complication and/or aren't willing to compromise parts of their life.

 

[radonc]

I think a lot of people don't really have a full understanding of what medicine is, what it entails, and whether it is right for them before they make the plunge. So many people have a one-track mind when they go to college that by the time they actually consider if they're on the right track, they're already in med school and actually having to try to decide what to do with it. By this point their life also may be changing (marriage, family, etc) and they didn't plan for that complication and/or aren't willing to compromise parts of their life.

i think its more that people always think the grass is greener on the other side...people in medicine tend to be cynical type a personalities who are full of themselves.

if you actually talk to people in non-medical fields, their jobs are truly very boring/unsatisfying (to me). a lot of people are in front of a computer for 8 hours a day, chatting away on IM. consultants are traveling 4-5 days/week, living out of a suitcase. bankers are working 90-100 hrs/week, crunching numbers, and finding ways to make a buck.

there are very few jobs that i am envious of: NGO'ers who work for think tanks-always engaged in intellectual discussions...venture capitalists-evaluating someone's business proposal as an investment opportunity sounds pretty cool...elementary school teachers-they influence their students lives more than they can imagine.

never could i imagine myself doing something else. taking care of cancer patients is one of the most gratifying, touching, inspiring aspects of my career/life and not once have i regretted it. it really is sad that residents/drs complain about their jobs as much as they do.

 

[MossPoh]

i think its more that people always think the grass is greener on the other side...people in medicine tend to be cynical type a personalities who are full of themselves.

if you actually talk to people in non-medical fields, their jobs are truly very boring/unsatisfying (to me). a lot of people are in front of a computer for 8 hours a day, chatting away on IM. consultants are traveling 4-5 days/week, living out of a suitcase. bankers are working 90-100 hrs/week, crunching numbers, and finding ways to make a buck.

there are very few jobs that i am envious of: NGO'ers who work for think tanks-always engaged in intellectual discussions...venture capitalists-evaluating someone's business proposal as an investment opportunity sounds pretty cool...elementary school teachers-they influence their students lives more than they can imagine.

never could i imagine myself doing something else. taking care of cancer patients is one of the most gratifying, touching, inspiring aspects of my career/life and not once have i regretted it. it really is sad that residents/drs complain about their jobs as much as they do.

I am jealous of the pro-golfer job, and the kids of billionaires..hell I'll take a person with a couple 100 million even. I also agree about this quick buck thing and I'm not even in frickin medschool yet.. Kind of concerning for me. I looked into other stuff, but I think I was kind of destined towards the field from a young age. Mom was in healthcare, dad is a doctor and I would spend hours with him in the hospital everyday, watch procedures, just play around with images sent to him. I could never imagine anything cooler....now I know there is definite crap and I have seen that...but there is crap with every profession. My best friend is an accountant...not jealous at all.