MDs hating on DOs where I work

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docisthegoal said:
Ok so I work in an ED as a scribe and I would say more than half the MDs working here (no DO ED docs out of 10-12 docs) maybe more just have no respect for DOs and I have been realizing it lately. They are nice people but listening to them hate against DOs when brought up is making me livid. "Why would you be a DO?" "You won't be happy." A doc told me today "You know patients only go to a DO office if they can't get into an MD office" and "Although they train the same as MDs they aren't as good which is why people want MDs". Then when asked if I was going to DO school she/he said "Well everything I said is true". Prior to working here I have never seen such hate and have seen and even worked with multiple highly respected DOs. I don't usually let things get me mad but this did it. I feel like I just work at a hospital that is not DO friendly but anyone who wants to say something to calm be down would be appreciated. Seeing professionals talk about other professionals in such a way is sad.
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There are many MDs who do discriminate against DOs, there are also many residency programs that never take DOs, some will occasionally take a foreign medical graduate or two, but never a DO. I know of an academic Orthopedic Surgery residency program in Boston that takes only MDs, they have taken a couple of foreign MDs in recent years from other first world countries, but never DOs. So there are even whole hospitals that discriminate against DOs.

I was even told this by one of my professors when I started school that there will be some people you will encounter who will question your education and qualifications because you are a DO, its not often but occasional. The elite academic medical centers are known to do this.

Its all a perceived sense of superiority on the part of some MDs and nothing based in reality, a DO can do the same thing an MD can do and many times often better. Health care is consumer oriented and consumers have biases, often so do the producers, the majority of whom are MDs.
 
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My pops, cousin, uncles are all MDs.

When consulting with them about medical school, my own father is the one who first told me about DOs. He is a brilliant man, an excellent anesthesiolgist and unbiased. He told me some history about both. When I said "Wow, sounds like some DOs made a smart move a hundred years plus ago (from some crazy MD antics of the past)," he just laughed and replied, "Yeah." He didn't freak out with hubris. This conversation drove me to apply to primarily DO.

This isn't a bragging right, or meant to be insulting towards my dad, but it is a fact: he applied to one DO school, and several MD schools. He was accepted to, I think, 3 out 5 MD schools, but was rejected from the only DO school he applied to. He was likely very qualified, but DOs want people who are into their philosophy. I applied with secondaries to about 7 DO schools and two MD schools (one in-state, one foreign for back up). If I had only gotten acceptance to MD, I would have went. I am a student at a DO school. Needless to say my father, family and I still love each other; and have much respect for one another.You will be trained well in either setting. My father's best friend, who is also my god-father met my dad in PGY-1. Guess what? He and his wife went to a foreign medical school, they were Polish immigrants. FMS also receive hate for no reason. His son, what we consider my cousin, is US trained MD, fresh out PGY-1. You'll be happy to hear that my father, uncle, cousin and myself are all very happy with where we are, MDs (foreign and US trained) and DOs (hopefully one day lol), we all get along great haha.

People who have bizzare complexes say crazy stuff. Rational people do not, we left that ish in the 1800s-1950s. Even some DOs hate on MDs, which is silly. I've also met MDs who are thrilled to learn OMM. Don't buy into propaganda for either side. Be proud of being who you are. Be proud to be in medical school and one day hopefully be a practicing physician/surgeon, using whatever you have in your toolkit (read: training). Study hard and work hard, we all wind up in a hospital, or the same residency.
 
Seth Joo said:
So there are even whole hospitals that discriminate against DOs.
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You need to name one hospital so somebody can sue them (and win). It is against federal law - e.g. Medicare regulations - to refuse hospital privileges based on degree.
 
I've had MDs tell me to go DO, they are of course some discrimination but I haven't seen much of it first hand. Fathers a MD and he encouraged me to apply to go DO years ago.
 
costales said:
You need to name one hospital so somebody can sue them (and win). It is against federal law - e.g. Medicare regulations - to refuse hospital privileges based on degree.
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While you can't refuse privileges, there are physician groups out there that will not hire DOs or are very reluctant to do so, particularly in academics. They're not all that common, but they're out there. You may be able to admit your patients there, but you'll never work there sort of thing. Of course, this is usually a department-by-department thing, so you might find you can get in as a hospitalist but surgeons are locked out, etc.
 
Mad Jack said:
While you can't refuse privileges, there are physician groups out there that will not hire DOs or are very reluctant to do so, particularly in academics. They're not all that common, but they're out there. You may be able to admit your patients there, but you'll never work there sort of thing. Of course, this is usually a department-by-department thing, so you might find you can get in as a hospitalist but surgeons are locked out, etc.
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Yes sadly I know of some places like this. Some are highly prestigious hospitals and I'm sure it can be seen in some group practices.
 
I'd have to admit when I first signed up to this forum, I used to have this "I must get into an MD school no matter what mentality" mindset. After learning about the DO route from this board and working with many on a professional level, I've come to realization that the last two letters after your name doesn't define the quality you provide as physician. I am fortunate to have an MD & DO mentor I can speak to, who both urges me to apply to both MD & DO programs and take whatever opportunity I can get. I hope many of you who do decide to take the DO route, not regret going into a field knowing that the initials will "hurt you". Overall, you will be physicians and regardless of what you do, you are making an impact for the patients.
 
I was told to go DO by 2 MD mentors and a DO mentor. I highly value OMM. As an aside, Rich stay at home moms in Zona prefer DOs because they percieve its better, which is funny.

I think the distinction is at an all time low, year by year eroding more and more
 
I'm also an ED Scribe. And I guess I'm kind of lucky.
At my facility, MD and DO are seen as equals. DOs outnumber MDs, and IMO, DOs seem to be favorited here. Heck, the director of the ED here is a DO.

My point is, haters are gonna hate, and every community has its own type of environment. Make sure to disregard the haters and surround yourself by colleagues who appreciate your title and skills. 😉
 
i scribed in a the ED where nearly a third of the doctors were DO and they got along really well. I didn't even know they were DO's until I saw their badges. They all do the same work
 
Same deal as @eyesfeeltired except more like 1/2 are DO, many of whom graduated from a localish DO school. There are some great MDs and some great DOs and some less good of each. All do the same stuff.
 
Hospitals do that all the time. Even the podiatrists at the hospital I work at have MD after their name on their ID tags
 
Medschoolornah said:
I bet it was a mistake by whoever issued the badge and he just didn't correct it??
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He was a locum. It was easier to reuse an old badge (MD) than to make a new badge (DO). The ER I worked at, there was only 1 other D.O that stayed for 6 months -- whom I never worked for.
 
Yeah a lot of hospital systems only have MD as an option when they make their forms, badges, etc. it is funny because when you go to the physician pages their profile reads: John Smith, MD graduate of AT Still college of osteopathic medicine. I think it is actually pretty common.
 
docisthegoal said:
Ok so I work in an ED as a scribe and I would say more than half the MDs working here (no DO ED docs out of 10-12 docs) maybe more just have no respect for DOs and I have been realizing it lately. They are nice people but listening to them hate against DOs when brought up is making me livid. "Why would you be a DO?" "You won't be happy." A doc told me today "You know patients only go to a DO office if they can't get into an MD office" and "Although they train the same as MDs they aren't as good which is why people want MDs". Then when asked if I was going to DO school she/he said "Well everything I said is true". Prior to working here I have never seen such hate and have seen and even worked with multiple highly respected DOs. I don't usually let things get me mad but this did it. I feel like I just work at a hospital that is not DO friendly but anyone who wants to say something to calm be down would be appreciated. Seeing professionals talk about other professionals in such a way is sad.
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Those doctors are idiots. There are idiots everywhere not just government.

I have not met one patient that said anything about preferring an md to a Do( and what if they think so?) there's no difference in the end, if you work to be s good physician.

Go for it, work hard, learn as much as you can and treat your patients with respect and I promise you, you will be laughing at them soon.
 
Let me guess, you are working at a no name community hospital? I worked at Johns Hopkins Medicine for three years as a clinical cancer researcher and never heard one MD talk poorly about DOs. Big deal docs at large academic institutions don't waste their time talking poorly about others. The physicians you work with probably have a napoleon complex. Furthermore, EM is one of the easiest residencies to place into. Little man syndrome much?
 
argle_bargle said:
Anyways they rank their providers on quantity of patients seen (for reimbursement reasons, bonuses, etc.) and the two DOs held the top 2 spots consistently for the two YEARS I was there.
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I wouldn't say this is necessarily a good thing and could represent a variety of things from being less thorough and doing a cursory job to working more shifts than colleagues. When dispo rather than appropriate care is the mentality, as it often is in the ER, there is an issue with priorities. /soapbox
 
BmoreInBmore said:
Let me guess, you are working at a no name community hospital? I worked at Johns Hopkins Medicine for three years as a clinical cancer researcher and never heard one MD talk poorly about DOs. Big deal docs at large academic institutions don't waste their time talking poorly about others. The physicians you work with probably have a napoleon complex. Furthermore, EM is one of the easiest residencies to place into. Little man syndrome much?
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A few small points:
- The Oncology Department is not part of the department of medicine at JHH.

- You are right, not much time is spent bad mouthing DOs but this is confounded by the fact that there basically aren't any DOs in the Sidney Kimmel Cancer center (JHH's cancer center). And let's be honest, as a cancer researcher would you really be privy to these discussions anyway?

- Acting like there isn't an Anti-DO bias at large academic institutions, including Hopkins, is not accurate.
 
oOKawaiiOo said:
The DO I scribed for wore an MD badge........
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docisthegoal said:
Haha I've noticed the same thing scoping out some residents at residencies. They list the osteo school they attended then label them as MD. I feel this is simply a mistake though but maybe not haha
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I think a lot of it has to do with how the system is set-up.

At my job, the doctors will have "DO" on the badge. But if they put in an order for something through our system, it will say, "John Smith, MD."

Anyway, where I am, we have two doctors in the ER that are DOs and two that seem to be in charge of CCU/ICU. Ortho is flooded with DOs and they have one of the top ortho departments in the area, which is pretty good considering our hospital isn't that big.

I am a licensed professional but depending on who did your badge at work, it might not have the letters attached to your name.
 
Instatewaiter said:
I wouldn't say this is necessarily a good thing and could represent a variety of things from being less thorough and doing a cursory job to working more shifts than colleagues. When dispo rather than appropriate care is the mentality, as it often is in the ER, there is an issue with priorities. /soapbox
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It comes down to how confident they are with their abilities. They were the most efficient and the most knowledgable providers, and that's why they were able to see the quantity of patients they did. I worked with the them often, and they were clearly the best there. It wasn't an issue of quality. They were also younger than the majority of other providers which I believe played a role, but shifts were evenly disbursed.
 
To be honest, MD or DO don't really matter to me. At end of day, you got to do the same jobs and got the same salaries. If you want to be slightly more competitive for sought after fields, good for you. I wish you the best. Not my cup of tea. I'll tell you what though. If I'm a DO, I'll bear that proudly and represent the school. If my badge say MDs, I'll change that to DO immediately. Be proud of who you were, who you're and who you'd be. There's only one of you. Why compare to each other? it does nothing. Compare your current self to your future self.
 
Instatewaiter said:
A few small points:
- The Oncology Department is not part of the department of medicine at JHH.

- You are right, not much time is spent bad mouthing DOs but this is confounded by the fact that there basically aren't any DOs in the Sidney Kimmel Cancer center (JHH's cancer center). And let's be honest, as a cancer researcher would you really be privy to these discussions anyway?

- Acting like there isn't an Anti-DO bias at large academic institutions, including Hopkins, is not accurate.
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Oh right, anyone at Hopkins that isn't a physician is worthless, I forgot. And lets be real, you weren't an Osler resident so don't try me. I never said oncology was part of the medicine department, Johns Hopkins Medicine incorporates the hospital and the medical school which are two separate entities. Furthermore, JHMI (Johns Hopkins Medical Institute) includes the schools of medicine, nursing, and public health.

I managed the research of over a dozen faculty members including department chairs so I guarantee I was privy to a lot higher brow conversations than you. Since both you and I know, research is the cornerstone of a professors livelihood at an academic institution.

I also never said there wasn't bias from an institutional standpoint, you are correct a DO will never be the dean of the School of Medicine at Hopkins. But there were many DO students that rotated through radiation, medical, and surgical oncology during my tenure. I was merely trying to encourage the original poster to not let jerk physicians deter him/her.

Don't know why I bothered posting on this board. The majority of you are egocentric trolls. Time to go inactive for another two years.
 
I guess OP could ask for some scientific evidence that DO training produces less competent physicians. Or perhaps they could remind these gentlemen that MD is the degree they award in the caribbean to produce 1/5 (?) of MDs in the US. Or probably its best just to remember the history of medical practice in this country is rife with all forms of discrimination and prejudice against minority groups (with the majority being male MDs).

You ever notice that the people in your life that talk the most **** are also the most insecure?
 
BmoreInBmore said:
Oh right, anyone at Hopkins that isn't a physician is worthless, I forgot. And lets be real, you weren't an Osler resident so don't try me. I never said oncology was part of the medicine department, Johns Hopkins Medicine incorporates the hospital and the medical school which are two separate entities. Furthermore, JHMI (Johns Hopkins Medical Institute) includes the schools of medicine, nursing, and public health.

I managed the research of over a dozen faculty members including department chairs so I guarantee I was privy to a lot higher brow conversations than you. Since both you and I know, research is the cornerstone of a professors livelihood at an academic institution.

I also never said there wasn't bias from an institutional standpoint, you are correct a DO will never be the dean of the School of Medicine at Hopkins. But there were many DO students that rotated through radiation, medical, and surgical oncology during my tenure. I was merely trying to encourage the original poster to not let jerk physicians deter him/her.

Don't know why I bothered posting on this board. The majority of you are egocentric trolls. Time to go inactive for another two years.
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Dude I'm calling you out because you name dropped trying to impress people and trying to get people to think you were something more inovvlved than a pre-med research assistant. Look through my post history and you will realize where I did residency.

As to the DOs rotating through JHH, that is a good example of the bias. JHH will allow DOs to rotate on the specialty services but they don't even get courtesy interviews from the Osler program. Good enough to take their money but not enough to interview.
 
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Instatewaiter said:
Dude I'm calling you out because you name dropped trying to impress people and trying to get people to think you were something more inovvlved than a pre-med research assistant. Look through my post history and you will realize where I did residency.

As to the DOs rotating through JHH, that is a good example of the bias. JHH will allow DOs to rotate on the specialty services but they don't even get courtesy interviews from the Osler program. Good enough to take their money but not enough to interview.
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I know personally two DOs that did anesthesia at Johns Hopkins
 
Dustbowl12 said:
I know personally two DOs that did anesthesia at Johns Hopkins
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And there are (were?) also some DOs in EM there as well (both are not the osler program). Other specialties like medicine and most surgical specialties not so much. Anesthesia, is much less competitive than it once was with average board scores below the average for IM. Anesthesia, like PM&R and EM, is a field that DOs have made in-roads.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Dude I'm calling you out because you name dropped trying to impress people and trying to get people to think you were something more inovvlved than a pre-med research assistant. Look through my post history and you will realize where I did residency.

As to the DOs rotating through JHH, that is a good example of the bias. JHH will allow DOs to rotate on the specialty services but they don't even get courtesy interviews from the Osler program. Good enough to take their money but not enough to interview.
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Perspective is an interesting thing you are obviously quite narcissistic so you think thats where I was coming from. I was genuinely just trying to encourage the OP. Also, I wasn't a pre-med research assistant. Furthermore, I did my graduate education at Hopkins. Once again, cute try.
 
From my experience, the same doctors who discriminate against DO's are the same ones who usually either tell students to go NP/PA or not to even go into medicine. Forget them, do right by your patients, and be a great physician....regardless of what initials follow your name.
 
Dustbowl12 said:
I know personally two DOs that did anesthesia at Johns Hopkins
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So? There are DOs at Ucsd, Stanford, Brigham, MGH, NYP, UCLA Ronal Reagan MC, UCSF, and not a single one of those have accepted DOs into their IM, gen surg, surg specialties (ENT, NS, Uro), derm, plastics residencies. Things like pm&r, peds, and gas are attainable but the bias is REAL, it will not change all of a sudden because of the merger.

UPenn/HUP is still going to turn down PCOM applicants despite it's being "top tier" in the DO world.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
AlteredScale said:
So? There are DOs at Ucsd, Stanford, Brigham, MGH, NYP, UCLA Ronal Reagan MC, UCSF, and not a single one of those have accepted DOs into their IM, gen surg, surg specialties (ENT, NS, Uro), derm, plastics residencies. Things like pm&r, peds, and gas are attainable but the bias is REAL, it will not change all of a sudden because of the merger.

UPenn/HUP is still going to turn down PCOM applicants despite it's being "top tier" in the DO world.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...


"So?" Lol.
 
Dustbowl12 said:
"So?" Lol.
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So you stating "I know two DOs at JHU" is completely futile and a last ditch effort to presume that there's no bias and/or that some sort of ceiling is being cracked for DOs to waltz into any program. I don't understand where you going with that statement either way.


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docisthegoal said:
Ok so I work in an ED as a scribe and I would say more than half the MDs working here (no DO ED docs out of 10-12 docs) maybe more just have no respect for DOs and I have been realizing it lately. They are nice people but listening to them hate against DOs when brought up is making me livid. "Why would you be a DO?" "You won't be happy." A doc told me today "You know patients only go to a DO office if they can't get into an MD office" and "Although they train the same as MDs they aren't as good which is why people want MDs". Then when asked if I was going to DO school she/he said "Well everything I said is true". Prior to working here I have never seen such hate and have seen and even worked with multiple highly respected DOs. I don't usually let things get me mad but this did it. I feel like I just work at a hospital that is not DO friendly but anyone who wants to say something to calm be down would be appreciated. Seeing professionals talk about other professionals in such a way is sad.
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I work in an ED as a scribe as well and the MDs and DOs treat each other exactly the same way. One of the partners of the group is a DO. I have discussed osteopathic with the MDs I work with extensively and they've all expressed sincere disappointment that there are still other doctors, residencies, and fellowships that have that attitude toward DOs. I'm sorry you're surrounded with medical professionals who feel the need to belittle their colleagues.
 
Can we all agree that BmoreinBmore's reaction in this thread is completely illogical? I'm not sure if he thinks he's helping by trying to hide the fact that bias exists or upset at some perceived assault upon his work at JHU, but he's really only arguing with himself here...
 
kwright26 said:
I work in an ED as a scribe as well and the MDs and DOs treat each other exactly the same way. One of the partners of the group is a DO. I have discussed osteopathic with the MDs I work with extensively and they've all expressed sincere disappointment that there are still other doctors, residencies, and fellowships that have that attitude toward DOs. I'm sorry you're surrounded with medical professionals who feel the need to belittle their colleagues.
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Thanks yeah I have just come to the realization that where I work isn't the most friendly and that not all places are like it. It's good to know there are places as yours and mine out there though.
 
AlteredScale said:
So? There are DOs at Ucsd, Stanford, Brigham, MGH, NYP, UCLA Ronal Reagan MC, UCSF, and not a single one of those have accepted DOs into their IM, gen surg, surg specialties (ENT, NS, Uro), derm, plastics residencies. Things like pm&r, peds, and gas are attainable but the bias is REAL, it will not change all of a sudden because of the merger.

UPenn/HUP is still going to turn down PCOM applicants despite it's being "top tier" in the DO world.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
Click to expand...

My doctor is at upenn and when I went to her I told her I was a medical student at PCOM. She actually told me that there was a resident from my school at upenn. I'm sure this isn't common but I don't think it's impossible. This was an IM residency. Alot of students seems to go on to Jefferson for residency it seems (4 in gas, 3pmr, 2 in affiliates). Most places in the city of Philadelphia seem to be open to our students. We also share some rotation spots with the other medical schools.

Pennsylvania hospital has a dual accredited AOA/ACGME IM program affiliated with pennmedicine and PCOM also: http://www.pcom.edu/academics/mednet/hospital-partners/pennsylvania-hospital.html http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/pahedu/gme/medicine.html
2 of our students went there.

We also bad a pathology match at Pennsylvania hospital and a family med match at the hospital of the university of Pennsylvania.

Toptomato could probably give a better picture then I did but since you mentioned Pcom and upenn I thought I would expand on that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Hospital
 
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