Measles and Mumps

BU Medical Sciences
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I have a conspiracy theory that the moms who refuse to vaccinate their kids are a part of an organization to destroy America from the inside.
 
What do docs say to people who refuse vaccinations? I've never had the opportunity to talk to a doc about this.

My only experience with this was a guy who called me an idiot for getting the flu vaccine. When he asked me why I did it and I said that the CDC checks these things to ensure safety for people receiving the vaccination, he resorted to an anecdote about a family member who developed some neurological condition after being vaccinated. I didn't know what to say to this, so I blankly stared at him. (This guy was a Wharton grad!):wtf:

Edit: Typo.
 
My immunolgist colleague likes to say that "just because one is intelligent, it doesn't mean one is smart".

Ace-Co-A said:
What do docs say to people who refuse vaccinations? I've never had the opportunity to talk to a doc about this.

My only experience with this was a guy who called me an idiot for getting the flu vaccine. When he asked me why I did it and I said that the CDC checks these things to ensure safety for people receiving the vaccination, he resorted to an anecdote about a family member who developed some neurological condition after being vaccinated. I didn't know what to say to this, so I blankly stared at him. (This guy was a Wharton grad!):wtf:

Edit: Typo.
Click to expand...
 
LuciusVorenus said:
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Measles-Outbreak-More-Cases-Manhattan-Bronx--249451771.html

http://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/index.ssf/2014/03/mumps_outbreak_at_ohio_state_f.html

🙁
Click to expand...
People get your vaccinations.
tumblr_m6lvp0zUni1rxmmdoo1_500.jpg
 
Ace-Co-A said:
What do docs say to people who refuse vaccinations? I've never had the opportunity to talk to a doc about this.

My only experience with this was a guy who called me an idiot for getting the flu vaccine. When he asked me why I did it and I said that the CDC checks these things to ensure safety for people receiving the vaccination, he resorted to an anecdote about a family member who developed some neurological condition after being vaccinated. I didn't know what to say to this, so I blankly stared at him. (This guy was a Wharton grad!):wtf:

Edit: Typo.
Click to expand...

I think this is written by a peds doctor - saying he won't allow non-vaccinated kids into his clinic because compromised kids or those who CAN'T get vaccinated are getting sick because of kids who's parents REFUSE to vaccinate.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ers-you-just-brought-back-measles-in-nyc.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...tricians-want-you-to-vaccinate-your-kids.html
 
Ace-Co-A said:
What do docs say to people who refuse vaccinations? I've never had the opportunity to talk to a doc about this.

My only experience with this was a guy who called me an idiot for getting the flu vaccine. When he asked me why I did it and I said that the CDC checks these things to ensure safety for people receiving the vaccination, he resorted to an anecdote about a family member who developed some neurological condition after being vaccinated. I didn't know what to say to this, so I blankly stared at him. (This guy was a Wharton grad!):wtf:

Edit: Typo.
Click to expand...

The guy was probably referring to Guillain-Barre syndrome, and there is a connection (albeit extremely rare) to vaccinations. The guy was definitely overreacting, as the benefits of getting the vaccine is >>>>>>>>>> than any of the rare adverse effects, but I wouldn't say he was completely wrong.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm
 
Ismet said:
The guy was probably referring to Guillain-Barre syndrome, and there is a connection (albeit extremely rare) to vaccinations. The guy was definitely overreacting, as the benefits of getting the vaccine is >>>>>>>>>> than any of the rare adverse effects, but I wouldn't say he was completely wrong.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm
Click to expand...

At the same time, people have no problems with taking pills for anything and everything even if the commercials include side effects such as "death." A less than 0.001% chance with vaccines though? No way.
 
I work in an ED, one time the doctor I was with saw a kid with whooping cough. Unvaccinated. Both his parents work in healthcare but they don't believe in vaccination. He didn't hold back.
 
Last edited:
ommnomm said:
I scribe in an ED, one time the doctor I was with saw a kid with whooping cough. Unvaccinated. Both his parents work in healthcare but they don't believe in vaccination. He didn't hold back.
Click to expand...

🙁

 
LuciusVorenus said:
🙁

Click to expand...


I suspect that there are plenty of compelling videos about autism and side effects of vaccines too. I think the bottomline is that it's preferable to just be healthy. This debate and publicity will be helpful in getting the attention necessary to do more research on these problems.
 
Ace-Co-A said:
What do docs say to people who refuse vaccinations? I've never had the opportunity to talk to a doc about this.
Click to expand...
So, n=2 and I hope this is NOT typical, but here's how it has gone both times that I've seen it come up in the ED:


MD: And has s/he had all of their vaccinations?
Mom: No.
MD: And what was the reason for not vaccinating?
Mom: Oh, I read somewhere/a mom in xyz group told me that it could be bad for them, so I decided not to.
MD: OK...

--- 5min later ---

Nurse: Uh, your patient in room 5 is really upset
MD: What's going on?
Mom: I AM SO SICK OF YOU PEOPLE JUDGING ME AND THINKING I AM A TERRIBLE MOTHER!
MD: ...
Mom: IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT MY KID IS SICK!
MD: ...
Mom #$)^&@$#)^&$#)(%&#!@)%(&!@#)(%&$#*&@Q()Y YOU ARE A TERRIBLE DOCTOR AND I VACCINATED ALL OF MY OTHER CHILDREN
MD: Your child has (epilepsy/they're actually not even sick at all). Vaccines are honestly irrelevant in this case.

MD to the nurse: Has anyone spoken to her since I was in there?
Nurse: Nope.
MD: WTF? 😵
 
Gauss44 said:
The other side, I think is primarily the potential like to autism and side effects:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/03/24/autism.vaccines/index.html

http://www.generationrescue.org/resources/vaccination/

(I'm without a personal opinion on this since I haven't looked into it.)
Click to expand...

The horse **** "research" linking the mmr vaccine and autism was fraud. Paper retracted. Medical license lost. It was bull ****, horse ****, dog ****, etc. No link whatsoever.

Unvaccinated people and kids/adults with poor immune systems can and do die from diseases easily prevented by vaccines. You want to see kids cough themselves to death from pertussis? Interested in bringing back deaths from HiB epiglottitis? Into infertility from mumps orchitis? Dealers choice congenital defects from Rubella non-immune moms?

Get an opinion on this topic. It matters. Not vaccinating kills people.
 
My immunology professor (also a mom) reserved a whole day in her curriculum to basically scream, red-faced and all, at the entire class about vaccination and how parents who refuse to vaccinate for personal reasons should be prosecuted.


It was kind of awesome.
 
Why doesn't the AAP just hire Megan Fox or someone younger and hotter than McCarthy to do a PSA on the safety of vaccinations?

Actually that should be a strategy for all healthcare and physician related PR.
 
NontradCA said:
Why doesn't the AAP just hire Megan Fox or someone younger and hotter than McCarthy to do a PSA on the safety of vaccinations?

Actually that should be a strategy for all healthcare and physician related PR.
Click to expand...
Genius.
 
Anyone read the part of that article where only .3% of people who contract measles will suffer a life threatening complication?
 
knv2u said:
This is so sad. I am assuming that the alarm was indicating that her oxygen level was tanking as she looked like she had difficulty breathing. I think every pediatrician should have videos like this to show patients who refuse to vaccinate their children.
Click to expand...

Ever read the studies indicating that pertussis is actually evolving because of the vaccine?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19538113
 
Allen18328 said:
Anyone read the part of that article where only .3% of people who contract measles will suffer a life threatening complication?
Click to expand...
Allen18328 said:
Ever read the studies indicating that pertussis is actually evolving because of the vaccine?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19538113
Click to expand...
If you're going to try to argue this from a scientific perspective you are going to be destroyed, don't go complaining when people start attacking you for your poor grasp of scientific evidence.
 
darkjedi said:
If you're going to try to argue this from a scientific perspective you are going to be destroyed, don't go complaining when people start attacking you for your poor grasp of scientific evidence.
Click to expand...

I'll just keep referring you to the scientific studies, like those conducted by the National Institutes of Health, showing the dangers and potential pitfalls of large scale vaccination. I hope you're not one of those "anti-science" types.
 
ommnomm said:
I scribe in an ED, one time the doctor I was with saw a kid with whooping cough. Unvaccinated. Both his parents work in healthcare but they don't believe in vaccination. He didn't hold back.
Click to expand...

Good for the doc.
 
darkjedi said:
If you're going to try to argue this from a scientific perspective you are going to be destroyed, don't go complaining when people start attacking you for your poor grasp of scientific evidence.
Click to expand...

I see you're still lurking around the forums, Darkjedi. Can I assume that you're doing so while looking into the study I posted?
 
mehc012 said:
Oh noes, it's evolving!
...but vaccination still works against it.

I don't care what the pathogen does on its own time as long as I have a way to prevent it from infecting humans.
Click to expand...

Are you aware of what has happened to Staphylococcus aureus because of evolution? It became resistant to treatment. We had to develop new treatments and it is currently becoming resistant to them as well.

The point is you may not always have a way to prevent it. I hope you were just trying to be a wise guy with that post and it doesn't reflect your approach to medicine or science in general.
 
Only someone with a brain the size of a pea won't vaccinate. Of course, everyone in this topic would vaccinate their kids in a heartbeat. If you don't, prepare to be bashed by a big fat bass fish!

Besides, do you REALLY wanna be grouped in the same category as Kristen Cavallari? There's only so much stupid to go around.

A peds doctor I worked with fired patients from their practice if they refused vaccinations for kids. It's important to educate them on the importance, but if they refuse...well they can go find another doctor.
 
Allen18328 said:
Are you aware of what has happened to Staphylococcus aureus because of evolution? It became resistant to treatment. We had to develop new treatments and it is currently becoming resistant to them as well.

The point is you may not always have a way to prevent it. I hope you were just trying to be a wise guy with that post and it doesn't reflect your approach to medicine or science in general.
Click to expand...

You do understand that Staph. Aureus, MRSA, and VRSA evolved from antibiotic treatments? Most likely during the period of time in medicine (80s-90s) where antibiotics were both overpresecribed and UNDER taken because patients didnt take treatment plans seriously enough? If you don't complete a dull regimen it gives the remaining non-presenting bacteria a chance to replicate and evolve.

That is not how we treat Pertussis. We use toxoids that destroy the whole cell of the pathogen while circulating within the body as opposed to antibiotics which are selective poisons that usually just aim to prevent reproduction or inhibit the bacteria's ability to produce critical resources.

Im curious, is your solution to the current dilemma of growing antibiotic resistance (that we are actively working to curb now that we understand antibiotics more) not to treat? Because that is silly. When it results in the death of a patient, then that is idiotic, tragic.

Do you know what happens when Staph aureus goes untreated? If it finds a break in the skin it can spread to the kidneys and then you die.
 
Ismet said:
The guy was probably referring to Guillain-Barre syndrome, and there is a connection (albeit extremely rare) to vaccinations. The guy was definitely overreacting, as the benefits of getting the vaccine is >>>>>>>>>> than any of the rare adverse effects, but I wouldn't say he was completely wrong.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/guillainbarre.htm
Click to expand...

You can also get Guillain Barre from the flu itself, not just from the vaccine.
 
Allen18328 said:
Are you aware of what has happened to Staphylococcus aureus because of evolution? It became resistant to treatment. We had to develop new treatments and it is currently becoming resistant to them as well.

The point is you may not always have a way to prevent it. I hope you were just trying to be a wise guy with that post and it doesn't reflect your approach to medicine or science in general.
Click to expand...

And I sincerely hope you never become a physician because you're dangerous.

upload_2014-3-15_11-58-26.png
 
Lucca said:
You do understand that Staph. Aureus, MRSA, and VRSA evolved from antibiotic treatments? Most likely during the period of time in medicine (80s-90s) where antibiotics were both overpresecribed and UNDER taken because patients didnt take treatment plans seriously enough? If you don't complete a dull regimen it gives the remaining non-presenting bacteria a chance to replicate and evolve.

That is not how we treat Pertussis. We use toxoids that destroy the whole cell of the pathogen while circulating within the body as opposed to antibiotics which are selective poisons that usually just aim to prevent reproduction or inhibit the bacteria's ability to produce critical resources.

Im curious, is your solution to the current dilemma of growing antibiotic resistance (that we are actively working to curb now that we understand antibiotics more) not to treat? Because that is silly. When it results in the death of a patient, then that is idiotic, tragic.

Do you know what happens when Staph aureus goes untreated? If it finds a break in the skin it can spread to the kidneys and then you die.
Click to expand...

The point is that the same thing is happening. MRSA evolved from antibiotics and pertussis is evolving due to the vaccine. The end result will be the same.
 
Allen18328 said:
The point is that the same thing is happening. MRSA evolved from antibiotics and pertussis is evolving due to the vaccine. The end result will be the same.
Click to expand...


Ohhhhh ok. So you're saying we shouldn't even try to immunize anyone and save millions of lives because there's a chance that down the road we won't be able to vaccinate for something. This all seems pretty reasonable to me!

Jeez guys, we should've understood his points before jumping down his throat. Classic SDN.
 
Allen18328 said:
The point is that the same thing is happening. MRSA evolved from antibiotics and pertussis is evolving due to the vaccine. The end result will be the same.
Click to expand...
I think the real point is that you have a shaky understanding of how vaccines work vs how antibiotics work.
The vaccine itself does not place a selective pressure on the pathogen population, the way an antibiotic does. All it does is prime your immune system so that your body reacts to a first encounter with the bug as if it were a second encounter...which, let's note, means that NO mechanism is used other than what you use every time you interact with a kid with chickenpox or some common cold after you've already had it. From the perspective of the pathogen, nothing new or different is happening than has been since humans developed an adaptive immune system...except that there are fewer instances where it can establish a foothold BEFORE our immune system catches up.

So yeah, it's evolving...because the previously-selected-for-traits are no longer as much of an advantage because it's not being successful as a pathogen as frequently. However, it is not developing 'vaccination resistance', because that would just mean 'resistant to our immune systems'. Is it possible that we'll have to update our vaccines as the strains evolve? Yes, but that is an entirely separate entity from 'resistance'.
 
Allen18328 said:
Are you aware of what has happened to Staphylococcus aureus because of evolution? It became resistant to treatment. We had to develop new treatments and it is currently becoming resistant to them as well.

The point is you may not always have a way to prevent it. I hope you were just trying to be a wise guy with that post and it doesn't reflect your approach to medicine or science in general.
Click to expand...

There's a huge difference between treating a disease and vaccinating against it. Your grasp of immunity and how vaccinations work is tenuous at best.
 
Allen18328 said:
Anyone read the part of that article where only .3% of people who contract measles will suffer a life threatening complication?
Click to expand...

Did you read the part where that 0.1% mortality rate is for children in developed countries - countries where the parents have access to thousands of dollars in healthcare treatment when their kids actually get sick? Did you look up what it is in developing countries? It can be as high as 10% in some places.

You do realize almost half a million kids still die from measles every year because they aren't vaccinated, right?

How about "Infant mortality is sharply decreasing thanks to immunizations, especially against the measles, which contributed to a decrease by 25% in the children under 5 mortality rate worldwide."

By the way this is for measles, which is far less deadly than pertussis (an infant mortality rate of 1.2% in developed countries).

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

http://www.wfuna.org/mdg-child-health
 
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