Measles and Mumps

[cbrons]

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What do docs say to people who refuse vaccinations?

Some pediatricians will tell the family they need to find a new physician for their child. Most of them do not do this, but I think it is a very good idea. If the family is dumb enough not to vaccinate their kids, chances are they are more likely than normal sane people to cause you problems down the road.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Anyone read the part of that article where only .3% of people who contract measles will suffer a life threatening complication?

You know what 0.3% of a really big number is? A big number. And then factor in all the ones who get really sick but don't die.

 

[chenzt]

Anyone read the part of that article where only .3% of people who contract measles will suffer a life threatening complication?

Anyone read where only <<<<<<<0.3% of people who vaccinate against measles will suffer a life threatening complications?

 

[futuredoc331]

Did you read the part where that 0.1% mortality rate is for children in developed countries - countries where the parents have access to thousands of dollars in healthcare treatment when their kids actually get sick? Did you look up what it is in developing countries? It can be as high as 10% in some places.

You do realize almost half a million kids still die from measles every year because they aren't vaccinated, right?

How about "Infant mortality is sharply decreasing thanks to immunizations, especially against the measles, which contributed to a decrease by 25% in the children under 5 mortality rate worldwide."

By the way this is for measles, which is far less deadly than pertussis (an infant mortality rate of 1.2% in developed countries).

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

http://www.wfuna.org/mdg-child-health

You do realize that just about all of us in this thread live in developed nations right? Have I said anything in this thread about refusing vaccinations for third world countries? I'd like you to point me to that post.

We live in a developed nation. A nation with basic medical care, running water, and decent hygiene. These diseases would not cause epidemics here.

 

[theseeker4]

You do realize that just about all of us in this thread live in developed nations right? Have I said anything in this thread about refusing vaccinations for third world countries? I'd like you to point me to that post.

We live in a developed nation. A nation with basic medical care, running water, and decent hygiene. These diseases would not cause epidemics here.

The reason they DON'T cause epidemics here is because the vast majority are vaccinated. When those numbers start falling off, because woefully ignorant individuals would rather believe their favorite celebrity instead of published scientific research, epidemics certainly ARE possible. We are already seeing this in the United States, and other developed countries, as mentioned in articles posted above. Yes, admitting a child into a first-world hospital and providing him or her with all the support modern medicine has to offer greatly cuts down the fatality rate of any illness, but it is no substitute for the incredibly effective immunizations modern science has developed. It doesn't matter how you try to twist the numbers, argue about side effects, or bring up the fact that vaccines are never 100% effective in every individual; vaccines that are routinely administered save orders of magnitude more lives than they ever put at risk. Not being vaccinated, even for influenza, puts many people needlessly at risk if you are going to work in healthcare. These are facts, proven scientifically by study after study. You can quibble all you want about how many people die who contract disease x living in first-world-country y compared with people living in third-world-country z, but the bottom line is still vaccination saves lives, and universal vaccination is incredibly important to the most vulnerable people, such as the immunocompromised, since getting the flu might have a very low chance of killing you, but might have a high chance of killing your patient.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

You do realize that just about all of us in this thread live in developed nations right? Have I said anything in this thread about refusing vaccinations for third world countries? I'd like you to point me to that post.

We live in a developed nation. A nation with basic medical care, running water, and decent hygiene. These diseases would not cause epidemics here.

You do realize that people from developing countries can move to developed ones. Like, with a plane? Now you have a completely vulnerable population - sounds like fun.

Those diseases do not cause epidemics here because people here are vaccinated. Why is that so hard for you to understand? The problem is that people who choose not to get vaccinated are basically taking advantage of people who are giving us herd immunity. Why do you think you have to get tested for TB before you do anything here, and then get quarantined if you test positive for it? Because we don't get vaccinated for it and one person with TB can start a public health disaster.

No matter how hard you try, you can't turn vaccinations into a U.S issue. We don't live in Madagascar - this is a global issue.

 

[deleted407021]

Some pediatricians will tell the family they need to find a new physician for their child. Most of them do not do this, but I think it is a very good idea. If the family is dumb enough not to vaccinate their kids, chances are they are more likely than normal sane people to cause you problems down the road.

Not to mention the danger to any immunocompromised children sharing the clinic with them.

You do realize that just about all of us in this thread live in developed nations right? Have I said anything in this thread about refusing vaccinations for third world countries? I'd like you to point me to that post.

We live in a developed nation. A nation with basic medical care, running water, and decent hygiene. These diseases would not cause epidemics here.

That is not true at all. Vaccinations are the reason we don't see these diseases so often as other nations.

 

[sobored]

Ever read the studies indicating that pertussis is actually evolving because of the vaccine?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19538113

If you're going to try to get smart about your stupid argument, you might as well post the actual article, not the abstract that isn't even accessible outside of a university environment (provided they even subscribe to this particular journal). Because you posted it like this, I'll just assume you haven't even read the paper.

Most infectious diseases undergo antigenic variations/mutations IN SPITE of vaccinations, not because of them. Some have genomes that lack proofreading capabilities during replication --> mutations. And that's just ONE example of how these things happen.

Stop trying to justify/argue something you know nothing about. What's even more pathetic is that you are trying to use the "NIH studies" to support your nonsensical view points, when in fact no one at the NIH shares your viewpoint, and they have actually spent billions on research into vaccination advancement.

 

[futuredoc331]

You do realize that people from developing countries can move to developed ones. Like, with a plane? Now you have a completely vulnerable population - sounds like fun.

Those diseases do not cause epidemics here because people here are vaccinated. Why is that so hard for you to understand? The problem is that people who choose not to get vaccinated are basically taking advantage of people who are giving us herd immunity. Why do you think you have to get tested for TB before you do anything here, and then get quarantined if you test positive for it? Because we don't get vaccinated for it and one person with TB can start a public health disaster.

No matter how hard you try, you can't turn vaccinations into a U.S issue. We don't live in Madagascar - this is a global issue.

Vaccinating the entire population of the US will do nothing to help the populations of Africa. Those in Africa and those travelling to Africa should probably consider being vaccinated. People in the United States may want to consider against vaccination for most diseases.

We would not have epidemics because we have basic hygiene, running water, and health care. We vaccinate against diseases that every person in the country once had. Measles and Varicella aren't killers in the 1st world. They are inconveniences. The flu is not a killer in 99.99% of cases and studies do not show that vaccination is always better off. I have posted several studies that show vaccinations against the flu are putting people at higher risk for getting it in subsequent years. I have posted other studies showing that the flu shots don't give nearly the broad spectrum of immunity necessary.

You are the one perpetuating ignorance and ignoring science. Science tells us that there are serious risks about vaccines and that their success in the past does not necessarily mean they are the way of the future. The studies are out there, but you ignore them.

A responsible scientist and/or doctor always questions what they "know". They question it and rip it apart until they find better answers. That is the essence of the scientific method. You and most of the other people in here do not think for yourselves. You think what you are told to think and repeat what you are sold.

Every one of my studies came from peer reviewed journals and several were straight from the NIH website. You go ahead and listen to your favorite news reporter or corporate paid spokesperson and I'll listen to the independent doctors and researchers.

 

[futuredoc331]

If you're going to try to get smart about your stupid argument, you might as well post the actual article, not the abstract that isn't even accessible outside of a university environment (provided they even subscribe to this particular journal). Because you posted it like this, I'll just assume you haven't even read the paper.

Most infectious diseases undergo antigenic variations/mutations IN SPITE of vaccinations, not because of them. Some have genomes that lack proofreading capabilities during replication --> mutations. And that's just ONE example of how these things happen.

Stop trying to justify/argue something you know nothing about. What's even more pathetic is that you are trying to use the "NIH studies" to support your nonsensical view points, when in fact no one at the NIH shares your viewpoint, and they have actually spent billions on research into vaccination advancement.

No need to "try" to sound smart. I'll let the doctors and scientists do the talking for me. While you just repeat what you're told without thinking about or understanding it.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

You do realize that just about all of us in this thread live in developed nations right? Have I said anything in this thread about refusing vaccinations for third world countries? I'd like you to point me to that post.

We live in a developed nation. A nation with basic medical care, running water, and decent hygiene. These diseases would not cause epidemics here.

Really starting to think you're not a pre-med, but rather an anti-vaccine nut who trolls medical websites.

 

[plumazul]

Anyone read the part of that article where only .3% of people who contract measles will suffer a life threatening complication?

Start at 2:10

 

[futuredoc331]

Really starting to wonder if you're not a pre-med, but rather an anti-vaccine nut who trolls medical websites.

We are in a pre-med forum, NOT a medical website, buddy. Despite your belief that you're a doctor or have any shred of a clue more than anyone else, you aren't and you don't. Neither do I. My word is only as good as the information I can back up, which I have with peer reviewed studies. You have done none of that.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Vaccinating the entire population of the US will do nothing to help the populations of Africa. Those in Africa and those travelling to Africa should probably consider being vaccinated. People in the United States may want to consider against vaccination for most diseases.

We would not have epidemics because we have basic hygiene, running water, and health care. We vaccinate against diseases that every person in the country once had. Measles and Varicella aren't killers in the 1st world. They are inconveniences. The flu is not a killer in 99.99% of cases and studies do not show that vaccination is always better off. I have posted several studies that show vaccinations against the flu are putting people at higher risk for getting it in subsequent years. I have posted other studies showing that the flu shots don't give nearly the broad spectrum of immunity necessary.

You are the one perpetuating ignorance and ignoring science. Science tells us that there are serious risks about vaccines and that their success in the past does not necessarily mean they are the way of the future. The studies are out there, but you ignore them.

A responsible scientist and/or doctor always questions what they "know". They question it and rip it apart until they find better answers. That is the essence of the scientific method. You and most of the other people in here do not think for yourselves. You think what you are told to think and repeat what you are sold.

Every one of my studies came from peer reviewed journals and several were straight from the NIH website. You go ahead and listen to your favorite news reporter or corporate paid spokesperson and I'll listen to the independent doctors and researchers.

Rubella (German measles) used to be a MAJOR cause of birth defects. Measles kills 3/1000 children who contract the virus (in Westernized nations, btw). Other complications include pneumonia, meningitis, and worst of all, corneal ulcerations which can lead to blindness. Mumps has a bunch of nasty effects, including testicular/ovarian swelling and infertility (not something I'd want to risk...).

Luckily we have this thing called the MMR vaccine, which has spared millions of people from these potential effects.

 

[futuredoc331]

Rubella (German measles) used to be a MAJOR cause of birth defects. Measles kills 3/1000 children who contract the virus (in Westernized nations, btw). Other complications include pneumonia, meningitis, and worst of all, corneal ulcerations which can lead to blindness. Mumps has a bunch of nasty effects, including testicular/ovarian swelling and infertility (not something I'd want to risk...).

Luckily we have this thing called the MMR vaccine, which has spared millions of people from these potential effects.

Those are all severe complications that occur when very basic medical treatment is not provided. They are compounded by bad hygiene and poor sanitation. We do not live in the third world and this is not the 1800s.

 

[touchpause13]

Really starting to think you're not a pre-med, but rather an anti-vaccine nut who trolls medical websites.

I think you are correct.

 

[futuredoc331]

If you put us in a time machine and take us back 100 years my tune may be different. If we were in a 3rd world country, I'd probably tell you the rewards outweigh the risks. I don't see a time machine and I'm sitting in an air conditioned house, on the internet, with television playing in the other room. I don't think I'm in a third world country.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Vaccinating the entire population of the US will do nothing to help the populations of Africa. Those in Africa and those travelling to Africa should probably consider being vaccinated. People in the United States may want to consider against vaccination for most diseases.

We would not have epidemics because we have basic hygiene, running water, and health care. We vaccinate against diseases that every person in the country once had. Measles and Varicella aren't killers in the 1st world. They are inconveniences. The flu is not a killer in 99.99% of cases and studies do not show that vaccination is always better off. I have posted several studies that show vaccinations against the flu are putting people at higher risk for getting it in subsequent years. I have posted other studies showing that the flu shots don't give nearly the broad spectrum of immunity necessary.

You are the one perpetuating ignorance and ignoring science. Science tells us that there are serious risks about vaccines and that their success in the past does not necessarily mean they are the way of the future. The studies are out there, but you ignore them.

A responsible scientist and/or doctor always questions what they "know". They question it and rip it apart until they find better answers. That is the essence of the scientific method. You and most of the other people in here do not think for yourselves. You think what you are told to think and repeat what you are sold.

Every one of my studies came from peer reviewed journals and several were straight from the NIH website. You go ahead and listen to your favorite news reporter or corporate paid spokesperson and I'll listen to the independent doctors and researchers.

I didn't say anything about protecting Africa. I pointed out that even with good hygiene you can start an epidemic in an exposed population if you introduce an infected person from another population into it. This is one of the reasons TB is so scary for developed countries.

Measles and Varicella are not inconveniences for everyone that gets them. You posted yourself how even in a country as developed as ours there is still a mortality rate. As someone else pointed out, a seemingly small percentage of a large number is a big number. You only posted one study about how a new vaccine for measles might be necessary. I don't know if you read your own studies but nowhere do any of the authors suggest stopping vaccinations. I'm guessing you only read the abstracts though? You realize there were people who were taking your stance when we were vaccinating for smallpox and polio too, right? I guess some people just never learn.

Even if the mortality rate for a disease like pertussis was 0% and they only required the kind of intensive care available in developed countries, we should STILL be vaccinating. Unless you're taking the stance of "why vaccinate when you can waste hundreds of thousands of dollars per person treating a disease you could have avoided with an essentially free vaccine."

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

Those are all severe complications that occur when very basic medical treatment is not provided. They are compounded by bad hygiene and poor sanitation. We do not live in the third world and this is not the 1800s.

You are completely incorrect. All of these complications can occur in previously healthy individuals, and that's why doctors and parents were so happy when these vaccines became available. Tip: Why don't you talk to your grandparents or other elderly relatives about the effects of these diseases.

Anecdotally, my neighbor is blind from measles he contracted as a child. He grew up in a Boston suburb. Not exactly the third world. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Lucca]

If you put us in a time machine and take us back 100 years my tune may be different. If we were in a 3rd world country, I'd probably tell you the rewards outweigh the risks. I don't see a time machine and I'm sitting in an air conditioned house, on the internet, with television playing in the other room. I don't think I'm in a third world country.

You are incorrect. We are in 2014, it is you who is in the 1800's. Even if you believe nothing else, then you should at least vaccinate yourself before you come into a clinical setting because your passive carrying of non-presenting disease could potentially contaminate an immunocompromised patient, as others have already stated. It doesn't matter how much "sanitation and hygiene" a late stage cancer or HIV patient has - if they come into contact with even a mild disease they will die. That is not good. Even one life lost that way is too many lives when the cause is so preventable and the risk so tenous.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

If you put us in a time machine and take us back 100 years my tune may be different. If we were in a 3rd world country, I'd probably tell you the rewards outweigh the risks. I don't see a time machine and I'm sitting in an air conditioned house, on the internet, with television playing in the other room. I don't think I'm in a third world country.

THIS right here is the problem. People in developed countries have essentially been spoiled by vaccines, and don't remember what it was like before them. Talk to people from older generations who remember epidemics as recently as the 70s and they'll wonder what the hell is wrong with you.

 

[futuredoc331]

Most of those people will tell you that diseases such as measles and the chickenpox were no big deal. They'd say everyone got them and most people wanted their kids to get it so it would be done and over with. Turn off the news for a little bit and you'll be a little less scared to be outside of your imaginary bubble.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

We do not live in the third world and this is not the 1800s.

One of the ways I know this: We have vaccines.

 

[futuredoc331]

I didn't say anything about protecting Africa. I pointed out that even with good hygiene you can start an epidemic in an exposed population if you introduce an infected person from another population into it. This is one of the reasons TB is so scary for developed countries.

Measles and Varicella are not inconveniences for everyone that gets them. You posted yourself how even in a country as developed as ours there is still a mortality rate. As someone else pointed out, a seemingly small percentage of a large number is a big number. You only posted one study about how a new vaccine for measles might be necessary. I don't know if you read your own studies but nowhere do any of the authors suggest stopping vaccinations. I'm guessing you only read the abstracts though? You realize there were people who were taking your stance when we were vaccinating for smallpox and polio too, right? I guess some people just never learn.

Even if the mortality rate for a disease like pertussis was 0% and they only required the kind of intensive care available in developed countries, we should STILL be vaccinating. Unless you're taking the stance of "why vaccinate when you can waste hundreds of thousands of dollars per person treating a disease you could have avoided with an essentially free vaccine."

Severe complications happen to a tiny fraction of people who get chickenpox, measles, and the flu. Severe complications also occur with each of their vaccines. The vaccines aren't entirely safe. They pose very real dangers. We know about some of the risks and they are reported, but there are also risks that we are not aware of, risks that have no yet been linked to vaccines. We are also weakening our natural immune systems and setting ourselves up for possibly deadly repercussions.

The studies I have linked state that we need to take a closer look at our protocols. That is exactly what I'm saying.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

Most of those people will tell you that diseases such as measles and the chickenpox were no big deal. They'd say everyone got them and most people wanted their kids to get it so it would be done and over with. Turn off the news for a little bit and you'll be a little less scared to be outside of your imaginary bubble.

Bad **** can happen to people with chicken pox. Bad **** happens less frequently in those that get the vaccine.

 

[futuredoc331]

One of the ways I know this: We have vaccines.

Hey, TooLittleResearch, go read some studies and get a better understanding. You've questioned how vaccines can weaken our natural immune systems, which isn't really something hard to grasp.

 

[futuredoc331]

Bad **** can happen to people with chicken pox. Bad **** happens less frequently in those that get the vaccine.

That is not confirmed. Bad **** happens frequently due to vaccines. Even more bad **** happens that cannot be linked to vaccines, but are caused by them.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Severe complications happen to a tiny fraction of people who get chickenpox, measles, and the flu. Severe complications also occur with each of their vaccines. The vaccines aren't entirely safe. They pose very real dangers. We know about some of the risks and they are reported, but there are also risks that we are not aware of, risks that have no yet been linked to vaccines. We are also weakening our natural immune systems and setting ourselves up for possibly deadly repercussions.

The studies I have linked state that we need to take a closer look at our protocols. That is exactly what I'm saying.

Except that the rate of complications from vaccines are many orders of magnitudes smaller than the risk of not getting a vaccine. Actually, what has been happening recently is that people who happen to agree with you are not vaccinating their children and we might soon reach the point where herd immunity is not enough. Then we'll unfortunately see some deadly repercussions.

As for chickenpox, a very large number of people go on to get shingles. I don't know if you've had shingles or know anyone who's gotten it, but it's definitely not a minor inconvenience.

Saying that vaccines weaken our immune system sounds like something you read off of a herbalife bottle.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

That is not confirmed. Bad **** happens frequently due to vaccines. Even more bad **** happens that cannot be linked to vaccines, but are caused by them.

Lol. So much fo the scientific method.

 

[sobored]

No need to "try" to sound smart. I'll let the doctors and scientists do the talking for me. While you just repeat what you're told without thinking about or understanding it.

So I'm just repeating what I'm told without thinking or understanding it, yet somehow you are letting "doctors and scientists" speak for you so that makes you a thinker? I don't know why I'm wasting my time with you, your ignorance is overwhelming.

And feel free to google the thousands of NEJM, JAMA, JI, JV, etc papers that discuss the overwhelming benefits of vaccination ad nauseum (since you're such a connoisseur of the medical literature).

 

[futuredoc331]

Except that the rate of complications from vaccines are many orders of magnitudes smaller than the risk of not getting a vaccine. Actually, what has been happening recently is that people who happen to agree with you are not vaccinating their children and we might soon reach the point where herd immunity is not enough. Then we'll unfortunately see some deadly repercussions.

As for chickenpox, a very large number of people go on to get shingles. I don't know if you've had shingles or know anyone who's gotten it, but it's definitely not a minor inconvenience.

Saying that vaccines weaken our immune system sounds like something you read off of a herbalife bottle.

I've already posted the link showing that vaccines, especially the flu, weaken our immune systems and can leave us susceptible to more dangerous versions.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

That is not confirmed. Bad **** happens frequently due to vaccines. Even more bad **** happens that cannot be linked to vaccines, but are caused by them.

As I said before, prior to the MMR vaccine, measles killed 3 out of every 1000 children who contracted the virus.

How many children DIE because of the MMR vaccine?

 

[futuredoc331]

Here's another showing that less immunity is passed on naturally because of vaccines.

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.full

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I've already posted the link showing that vaccines, especially the flu, weaken our immune systems and can leave us susceptible to more dangerous versions.

Are you talking about "Bordetella pertussis strain variation and evolution postvaccination." Did you not read the article? Not vaccinating because we are becoming more susceptible to more dangerous versions is not what that study said AT ALL.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Here's another showing that less immunity is passed on naturally because of vaccines.

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.full

Yeah you know how you fix this? By vaccinating the children as well.

 

[futuredoc331]

As I said before, prior to the MMR vaccine, measles killed 3 out of every 1000 children who contracted the virus.

How many children DIE because of the MMR vaccine?

We have no way of knowing. We do know that severe reactions do occur and are grossly under reported. We have no idea about long term side effects that are being caused by these vaccines. This is something any respectable doctor would tell you.

How can we calculate the number of children who die because they aren't provided the same natural immunity because their mothers were vaccinated? How do we calculate the number of children who died from suppressed immune systems caused by vaccines?

The CDC tells us that a high estimate for reported adverse reactions is 10%

 

[Patros]

Severe complications happen to a tiny fraction of people who get chickenpox, measles, and the flu. Severe complications also occur with each of their vaccines. The vaccines aren't entirely safe. They pose very real dangers. We know about some of the risks and they are reported, but there are also risks that we are not aware of, risks that have no yet been linked to vaccines. We are also weakening our natural immune systems and setting ourselves up for possibly deadly repercussions.

The studies I have linked state that we need to take a closer look at our protocols. That is exactly what I'm saying.

Alright, that is patently false buddy. Vaccines do not weaken your immune system. See this webpage by the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia.

Also, you have linked some studies that show that the effectiveness of vaccines may be decreasing through various means. But how does that help your cause at all? That's like arguing "Bullet proof vests have been decreasing in effectiveness over the years. So you might as well not wear a bullet-proof vest at all!" If anything, you have only served to demonstrate that vaccines have been crucial in the past, and we will need new ones in the future.

 

[sobored]

Here's another showing that less immunity is passed on naturally because of vaccines.

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.full

Your inability to critically appraise the literature is astounding.

They are saying that maternally transferred antibodies are decreasing over time, and this is correlated to more women being vaccinated against MMR. Fine, that's their observation - but they are just trying to justify why it is that maternal IgG transmission is declining. They are in no way suggesting that vaccination is not the correct course, even in this situation. Their solution to this problem is to start vaccinating earlier!! Not early enough to where the babies' immune systems can't mount a response, but early enough to counteract infection when the risk is high enough.

And don't even get me started on all the flaws in their study design.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

We have no way of knowing. We do know that severe reactions do occur and are grossly under reported. We have no idea about long term side effects that are being caused by these vaccines. This is something any respectable doctor would tell you.

How can we calculate the number of children who die because they aren't provided the same natural immunity because their mothers were vaccinated? How do we calculate the number of children who died from suppressed immune systems caused by vaccines?

The CDC tells us that a high estimate for reported adverse reactions is 10%

Again, READ THE STUDY YOU JUST POSTED. The authors point out that vaccinations have reduced the duration at which antibodies from the mother protect the child by 2 MONTHS. So their solution is that we should slightly lower the age at which we start the first dose. It's not like you're losing some life long immunity that your mother gives you. Is the increased risk of not vaccinating your child worth the additional 2 months of coverage for you?

 

[chenzt]

Vaccinating the entire population of the US will do nothing to help the populations of Africa. Those in Africa and those travelling to Africa should probably consider being vaccinated. People in the United States may want to consider against vaccination for most diseases.

We would not have epidemics because we have basic hygiene, running water, and health care. We vaccinate against diseases that every person in the country once had. Measles and Varicella aren't killers in the 1st world. They are inconveniences. The flu is not a killer in 99.99% of cases and studies do not show that vaccination is always better off. I have posted several studies that show vaccinations against the flu are putting people at higher risk for getting it in subsequent years. I have posted other studies showing that the flu shots don't give nearly the broad spectrum of immunity necessary.

You are the one perpetuating ignorance and ignoring science. Science tells us that there are serious risks about vaccines and that their success in the past does not necessarily mean they are the way of the future. The studies are out there, but you ignore them.

A responsible scientist and/or doctor always questions what they "know". They question it and rip it apart until they find better answers. That is the essence of the scientific method. You and most of the other people in here do not think for yourselves. You think what you are told to think and repeat what you are sold.

Every one of my studies came from peer reviewed journals and several were straight from the NIH website. You go ahead and listen to your favorite news reporter or corporate paid spokesperson and I'll listen to the independent doctors and researchers.

36,000 people die of flu per year. Extrapolate and you are saying there are 360 million flu cases per year? Wow, infecting the entire US population more than once.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

We have no way of knowing. We do know that severe reactions do occur and are grossly under reported. We have no idea about long term side effects that are being caused by these vaccines. This is something any respectable doctor would tell you.

How can we calculate the number of children who die because they aren't provided the same natural immunity because their mothers were vaccinated? How do we calculate the number of children who died from suppressed immune systems caused by vaccines?

The CDC tells us that a high estimate for reported adverse reactions is 10%

Serious question: What are you smoking?

The MMR vaccine has been administered to children since the 1960s. The first people who received the vaccine are now in their 50s or older. The main "side effect" has been a major reduction in complications and deaths due to measles/mumps/rubella.

 

[Lucca]

S

Here's another showing that less immunity is passed on naturally because of vaccines.

http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.full

Did you even read this? How strong are your reading skills? This article cites that infants of immunized mothers lose protection from maternal antibodies at an earlier age than infants from non immunized mothers. The only reason tbis is important is because it affects the ideal time window for vaccination since we dont want the maternal antibodies to neutralize the live attenuated vaccine. Straight from your link.

You should also notice that the communities that are against vaccines are still experiencig outbreaks of mmr when they dont need to be.

 

[chenzt]

We have no way of knowing. We do know that severe reactions do occur and are grossly under reported. We have no idea about long term side effects that are being caused by these vaccines. This is something any respectable doctor would tell you.

How can we calculate the number of children who die because they aren't provided the same natural immunity because their mothers were vaccinated? How do we calculate the number of children who died from suppressed immune systems caused by vaccines?

The CDC tells us that a high estimate for reported adverse reactions is 10%

Aren't those two contradictory statements?

 

[Lucca]

We have no way of knowing. We do know that severe reactions do occur and are grossly under reported. We have no idea about long term side effects that are being caused by these vaccines. This is something any respectable doctor would tell you.

How can we calculate the number of children who die because they aren't provided the same natural immunity because their mothers were vaccinated? How do we calculate the number of children who died from suppressed immune systems caused by vaccines?

The CDC tells us that a high estimate for reported adverse reactions is 10%

There are plenty of respectable doctors on this forum. Please make your way to the pediatrics resident forums, or even better, the allopathix/osteopathic med student forum and then try to ask them for their opinions.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Seriously though, it seems like you're not willing to leave the world you've created for yourself and see reason so I'm just going to go do something else.

"That is not confirmed. Bad **** happens frequently due to vaccines. Even more bad **** happens that cannot be linked to vaccines, but are caused by them."

Just in case you've forgotten, that right there is the complete opposite of the scientific method. We can have this conversation after you've finished bio/taken the MCAT - I guarantee you that you'll have changed your mind by then. At least for your future patients' sakes I hope so.

 

[Patros]

We have no way of knowing. We do know that severe reactions do occur and are grossly under reported. We have no idea about long term side effects that are being caused by these vaccines. This is something any respectable doctor would tell you.

How can we calculate the number of children who die because they aren't provided the same natural immunity because their mothers were vaccinated? How do we calculate the number of children who died from suppressed immune systems caused by vaccines?

The CDC tells us that a high estimate for reported adverse reactions is 10%

1. "Any respectable doctor" is bit of a stretch, yes? I won't pretend that I surveyed a hundred doctors on this opinion, so you don't pretend that either.
2. Babies don't lose their immunity because their mothers were vaccinated. On the contrary, the study is showing that the mother's antibodies (which are there BECAUSE of vaccines) are being passed on at lower rates. If the mother's weren't vaccinated, then NOTHING would be passed down.
3. As others have said, you have NOT read this article. Did you read the first sentence? In many industrialized countries, the introduction of measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine into national immunization programs proved successful in reducing the incidence of these infectious diseases

Edit: OP is not a troll, just misinformed. Post edited for civility's sake.

 

[Lucca]

Seriously though, it seems like you're not willing to leave the world you've created for yourself and see reason so I'm just going to go do something else.

"That is not confirmed. Bad **** happens frequently due to vaccines. Even more bad **** happens that cannot be linked to vaccines, but are caused by them."

Just in case you've forgotten, that right there is the complete opposite of the scientific method. We can have this conversation after you've finished bio/taken the MCAT - I guarantee you that you'll have changed your mind by then. At least for your future patients' sakes I hope so.

Absolutely agree. I wonder how far along in his education the OP is, he critized my verbal/comprehension skills so I'm sure he's at least taken the MCAT.

 

[Patros]

Absolutely agree. I wonder how far along in his education the OP is, he critized my verbal/comprehension skills so I'm sure he's at least taken the MCAT.

Not OP, you mean that Allen guy right? Still not sure if he was just trying to instigate an argument for kicks, or honestly believes the stuff he spouts. I want to believe that the latter type of person wouldn't be a premed. I mean, I read a couple of his posts and steam began shooting through my ears.

Too...much...misinformation....Can't....handle.....*head explodes*

 

[chenzt]

Severe complications happen to a tiny fraction of people who get chickenpox, measles, and the flu. Severe complications also occur with each of their vaccines. The vaccines aren't entirely safe. They pose very real dangers. We know about some of the risks and they are reported, but there are also risks that we are not aware of, risks that have no yet been linked to vaccines. We are also weakening our natural immune systems and setting ourselves up for possibly deadly repercussions.

The studies I have linked state that we need to take a closer look at our protocols. That is exactly what I'm saying.

We're also not sure if the food everyone eat might be slowly killing us. Lets tell people to just starve.

Absolutely agree. I wonder how far along in his education the OP is, he critized my verbal/comprehension skills so I'm sure he's at least taken the MCAT.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/from-square-one-to-application-in-10-months.1027169/

 

[Lucca]

Not OP, you mean that Allen guy right? Still not sure if he was just trying to instigate an argument for kicks, or honestly believes the stuff he spouts. I want to believe that the latter type of person wouldn't be a premed. I mean, I read a couple of his posts and steam began shooting through my ears.
Too...much...misinformation....Can't....handle.....*head explodes*

Oops. I do mean allen, I got this thread confused with the other one lol. Sorry Lucius!