Med Adcoms: demystified!

[MoosePilot]

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I still say that hard work is more of a factor than some vague "dedication to medicine", because that concept makes me think of someone who wants to get to an interview and talk a good game, but can't back it up with real incidents and evidence. That doesn't fly.

I think the only way you're going to show hard work is with results. Either numbers, ECs, recommendation letters, life experiences, or well written PS. A well written PS takes work and it requires previous work so you can *show* your dedication rather than just blather how you have a theoretical dedication to medicine.

As for the OP, DrYo12 is a med student who has experience working with the admissions committee for a very selective medical school. Based on her acceptances, I think she's got a good feel for the process.

Anyway, everyone's got their pet theory. Enjoy yours and see if it works for ya.

 

[Sundarban1]

yea...you are not an adcom. you do not read thousands of applications, then interview hundreds of them. how could you possibly know what they want?

i don't think adcoms are to be dymystified. i think you be yourself, do your best, and get good grades while showing how hard you work, and that will get you in. we don't want people being led to think that grades and MCAT don't matter.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for the advice, but the title is misleading.

How one who is not a member of an adcom, or have any ties with such an entity can claim such knowledge is just misleading and the root of all these arguements.

 

[gujuDoc]

The OP's post sounded very romantic and all, but I feel you and he miss my point. AdComs can tell in interviews who knows what they're getting themselves into. This is no secret. Why do you think people are freaking out asking for book recommendations about medical ethics and the structure of our healthcare system? Just because you have a stellar work ethic doesn't mean that your talents would best be useful in medicine.

One of my cousins is a really smart girl, super-driven. All I ever hear about from her is how much she hates medicine and made the wrong career choice. I hope she changes her mind because I know from experience that if you do a job that you absolutely can't stand you're going to break down sooner or later. Med Schools want to make sure people know what they're getting themselves into

A lot of medical students say how they hate it and wish they could do something over again. Read the Would You do it over again, if you had to thread in the General Residency forum.

However, the fact of the matter remains, that no matter how much clinical work we get, no matter how much we volunteer, no matter how much we serve as a PCT, EMT-B, etc. etc., we don't see the real good bad and ugly of medicine until we are there. So it is hard to take your cousin's words without taking those other things into account.

My own experience, seeing what my friends went through in the past year, showed me that the OP's post is true. There were many people with not soooooooo super high stats that got in by showing how they were dedicated, willing to work hard, and do anything to get into medical school.

How they showed their willingness to this came through different means and different life experiences, but they all showed this willingness. Granted its not that simple clear cut, the bottom line is that those who do work hard and can show it and have something the admissions people are looking for, then they'll get in.

Med school admissions is part hard work, part luck.

 

[Sundarban1]

Basically we owe that 0.28+/- SD in GPA for matriculants students to all those hard-workers. However, the SD in the GPA of matriculants has been decreasing and the mean increasing over the years. Nonetheless, Keep up the hard work!

 

[Jon Davis]

I agree with the OP wholeheartedly. However, numbers do play a role but I think its just to pass the first hurdle - to get the interview. Once you are grouped together with people of what they think are your intellectual/academically inclined folk, they test your devotion to medicine. Thats where the hard-work and other non-tangible factors are assessed by the adcoms. The non-tangable factors are best gauged when? When you are yourself at the interview. Thats the bottom line, be yourself, show what you got and dont leave anything to question for them. Your hard-working, caring, compassionate, etc nature will shine through while there. Theres a reason why they observe you even out of an interview session (ie. a med student interacts with you and gives their input to an adcom member). Its to see how you are in the wild. The real you. I remember reading somewhere that the interview starts as soon as you step foot in their city. I think thats a great way of thinking about it.
Just my 2 cents.

Disclaimer: To get the interview, numbers arent everything (some though have computerized cutoffs like some Ontario schools). As long as they have an interest in you of some kind due to some reason (PS statement, experiences, etc) they will call you. The importance of the interview is not to be taken lightly.

 

[Jon Davis]

However, the fact of the matter remains, that no matter how much clinical work we get, no matter how much we volunteer, no matter how much we serve as a PCT, EMT-B, etc. etc., we don't see the real good bad and ugly of medicine until we are there.

That is exactly the problem college students have when choosing programs, degrees, professional schools, etc. Its such a tough decision at a young age to pick what you truly feel comfortable with.

 

[velo]

When you get into medical school, substituting intellect for hard work isn't going to get you very far.

bullseye

I really did reletively little work in my ugrad classes (although I was busy with other things) and came out of it with stellar stats.

In medschool I still do well, but I work my ass off to do it. There is simply too much information and too much that you have just know that you can't just be smart, understand the key concepts, and reason your way through it all with very little actual "work."

 

[gujuDoc]

as someone who changed from biochemistry to chemical engineering, i feel obligated to speak about this. The hardest class in the biochemistry track was o-chem. And O-chem was a joke compared to all of the other classes I took as an engineer. Major definitely shows harder work, other things being equal. Whether or not adcoms are smart enough to realize this, I don't know, but I suspect they are. In the end, I would agree with the theory that all other things being equal, a harder major means harder work, but in practice you will rarely see all other EC's, etc. being equal, and consequently, major will not be a factor in admissions.

I am the daughter and sister of a civil and chemical engineer respectively. So I have heard many stories from my dad and bro about how tough engineering is. My father went to a school in India, that is tougher then MIT for engineering. In fact, many indians consider MIT a second choice to this particular school,(Indian Institute of Technology). As an engineering major, he was not allowed to use calculators in any math course, like we sooooooooo conveniently do. Also, he would be given the basics and told to figure out how to design a whole project, etc without any assistance.

Many of my science courses pale in comparison to the many stories he's told me about his classes. The same goes with the engineering program my brother was in at UF.

Engineering requires a lot of conceptual thinking and logic. It requires a lot less memorization and a lot more critical thinking. Not one of my microbiology major classes compare to the level of difficulty of a higher level engineering class. nor did my friends PChem class or Advanced Inorganic Chem class rise up to difficulty level of the engineering classes.

 

[Hercules022]

Ummm... have you been growing up on the same earth that I have? I have yet to meet one soul who has not contributed their success to either hard work in the past, or ongoing hard work. Yeah results matter alright, Result of slack-off, bottom of the pool pre-med = rejection letter city.



Wow, I wonder why AMCAS even bothers with a personal statement/ extracurricular/Underserved section. If adcoms thought like you my friend, woe unto those <3.0/25 who still got accepted (Read the MSAR if you don't believe). Emphasis on grades and MCAT will get you just as far as those 40/40 club members who thought med school was in the bag, a place called rejection city.



OMG!!! Please tell me you noticed that you answered your own question within this question. Let's start with a flow diagram, hard work at a full time job ----> less time to spend on academics ----> bad test scores do to less time to study = lower gpa/MCAT. Hope this clarifies for ya 😉 Of course that's just one of millions of scenarios (kids, family sickness, military duties) that could explain poor academic performance in lieu of hard work, but thank God that adcoms are human enough to consider these possibilities.



I've met a couple of crackheads in my life. They say the game is tough, heard pimpin wasn't easy either. But, if I may be so kind to interject, WHAT THE HELL DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING!!!!! You're right, claims are just claims. Back to the importance of PS + work/activity section + underserved status. Next time you see a $2 ho on the corner claiming to be working hard, ask her to fill out the corresponding sections of AMCAS and since you seem to be such the authority on judging hard work, see if her claim matches up to her responses... gracious, I'm being mean, forgive me 😍

Again people, I HATE NEGATIVE POSTS!!! This isn't a feel good post, it's a post to encourage people with good reasons for pursing medicine to still follow their dreams despite hardships that might have adversely affected their academic records. And if encouraging post = feel good post, then so be it. Get ya minds right 😡

I like the Earth comment, very witty. And I'm happy that everyone you know works hard for their success, but whether they do or not is irrelevant to my point. And when you address my "results matter" point your response doesn't even make any sense, "result of slack off = rejection city?" What the hell does that have to do with anything? My point was that producing results (i.e. high grades, MCAT score) is all that matters in how the adcoms view grades and scores. Not saying they ignore other things (volunteering, clubs, etc.) but regarding the numbers part of the application resulst are all that matter. "Well I tried really hard on the MCAT and busted my a** but I got a bad score" will not contribute anything positive to your app in the adcom's mind.

And as for the MSAR... who are all these <3.0 and 25 people who got accepted? You mean to Univ. of North Dakota? If you look at any top 50 school in the MSAR, avg. MCAT is 30 at the absolute lowest, and GPA is 3.5 to 3.7. Even most non Top 50 schools are close to those numbers. Sure there is a range of MCAT scores that they show on the graph, you have to look at averages. The fact that one kid might have gotten into Harvard with a 5 on the verbal or something has no relevance to anyone else. Chances are he had some unusual circumstance... i.e. father is a prof at Harvard or he's a 3rd generation there, etc. So if you're basing your claim on the fact that these schools have a wide range, you forgot to pay attention in Stats when they taught that the range doesn't give useful information about what will happen to most people.


Also, your "hard work at a full time job leads to bad grades" argument is illogical. If I apply with bad grades but I have a fulltime job, who is to say I'd have gotten good grades without one? Adcoms are never going to assume that deep down you're really a 4.0 student, but damn, had to pay those bills. Now, if you were getting good grades and then something happened, i.e. had to suddenly start working full time, and then your grades started to suck, that's different because you have proof that you were doing well without the job. But if you just apply with crappy grades/scores and blame it all on something they're going to laugh at you. You expect the adcoms to just say, "Let's assume this guy would have gotten a 40 on the MCAT." Don't think so ;-)

Also, I'd like to point out that having to "work hard" to pay bills doesn't show your a hard worker... it shows you like to have food to eat and the lights turned on in your apartment. Getting good grades while doing all those shows you are a hard worker.

And I'll reiterate that this IS a feel good post, and even if it's intentions are noble (to inspire people to apply), it's misleading because it's inaccurate. It perpetuates the myth that people get what they deserve and those who work the hardest get the best results. I'm sure adcoms like to see hardwork, but if I apply with a 34 (not my score) and WhatUpDoc applies with his 28 (could be, who knows) we'll both say "I worked hard to get that." Who are they going to believe?

 

[WhatUpDoc!]

It perpetuates the myth that people get what they deserve and those who work the hardest get the best results.

Ok, that there confirms it... so when did you arrive here on this planet?
Btw, nice shot with the MCAT comment... but I'll be happy to disclose that information with you come Mid October. Until then... I'll keep getting my secondaries/invites and when the acceptance letters start rolling in, I'll let you know what the adcoms thought about my hard work. Fair? 👍

 

[Hercules022]

Ok, that there confirms it... so when did you arrive here on this planet?
Btw, nice shot with the MCAT comment... but I'll be happy to disclose that information with you come Mid October. Until then... I'll keep getting my secondaries/invites and when the acceptance letters start rolling in, I'll let you know what the adcoms thought about my hard work. Fair? 👍

Are you completely out of touch with reality? You HONESTLY think that people always get what they deserve? It's almost shocking how you think I'm so wrong for suggesting otherwise. I bet you're one of those people who get a C on a test and assume the kids who got A's studied 10 times longer than you did and have no lives. And when you do poorly, you probably say something like "I'd rather get a B or a C than have no life and get an A."

Well I'm here to tell you, we didn't study longer than you, probably less, and we definitely have healthy social lives ("we" being people, including myself, who don't work really hard but still do well)

But keep telling yourself otherwise, I'm sure it makes you feel better

;-)

 

[CoffeeFreak]

kudos 👍

Okay, I haven't read this whole thread. But I've seen the student interviewer packet for one school, and the instructions about what to look for in an applicant. Sure, it mentioned looking for somebody who is capable of handling med school work. But that was DEFINITELY not the emphasis. It mostly emphasized personality, dedication, compassion, etc. Personality was the biggie.

So yeah, proving you know how to work hard is great. It might be very important. But I don't think, as the OP is suggesting, that this is the, or perhaps even a, deciding factor.

 

[CoffeeFreak]

touche....I see your point and agree 👍

First of all, I'm not trolling at all. I am offering a counterpoint to the OP because I think it is a reasonably well thought-out post but it is missing some considerations.

My first point, regarding the inclusiveness of numbers and hard work, fine, was very technical, but from the author's language he seemed to be assuming that these numbers are reasonably often able to be achieved without putting in your hours. I object to this claim. So does g3pro and a couple other people who have posted.

Secondly, I want to reiterate my second point: it is completely possible for one to work incredibly hard as a pre-med, do all their shadowing, get good grades, and still have no clue why they are directing hard work to medicine. This is why we write a personal statement in AMCAS. The purpose of this is not to create a laundry list of our accomplishments and hard work but rather demonstrate how each of these experiences showed us that medicine is the sensible choice of a career for our skills. So you shadowed a doctor... volunteered in the ER.... great. How do you bridge the gap between the statement "I shadowed Dr. X" and "this showed me that I want to be a doctor"? How do all of your experiences accomplish this? Why didn't you choose to go to law or business school instead? As I explained with the example of my cousin, if you work had but view medical school as an entitlement due to your hard work but don't understand why you want to be a doctor then you may finish medical school and realize that your heart really isn't in the profession.

 

[WhatUpDoc!]

Are you completely out of touch with reality? You HONESTLY think that people always get what they deserve?

Yeah, sooner or later. Most times later than sooner 🙂

It's almost shocking how you think I'm so wrong for suggesting otherwise.

Really!?!? Sorry bout the shock factor 😱

I bet you're one of those people who get a C on a test and assume the kids who got A's studied 10 times longer than you did and have no lives.

A C on a test... God forbid I usually have people waiting outside the classroom to kick my ass becuase I destroyed their chances for a curve.

And when you do poorly, you probably say something like "I'd rather get a B or a C than have no life and get an A."

Naww, haven't had much experience with doing poorly, but I can say that when I did, the direct cause was because I didn't put in enough effort/hard work, like when I got cut from the 8th grade track team... I still have nightmares

Well I'm here to tell you, we didn't study longer than you, probably less, and we definitely have healthy social lives ("we" being people, including myself, who don't work really hard but still do well)

Wow, there are others who have great social lives and still get kick ass grades too!!! Well I'll be... 😱 That's great that you don't work hard for it though, personally I bust my chops, but maybe I'm just not as smart as you to be able to get good grades without adequate studying... Show me the way jedi master 😛

But keep telling yourself otherwise, I'm sure it makes you feel better

Yeah, I do feel good. When you work your ass off for something it just seems to feel better after you accomplish your goal. Again, if you could just give me a piece of your intellectual know-how, that I may be able to be a slacker and successful

 

[Megalofyia]

DrYo likes to wear uniforms.

 

[Hercules022]

Wow, there are others who have great social lives and still get kick ass grades too!!! Well I'll be... 😱 That's great that you don't work hard for it though, personally I bust my chops, but maybe I'm just not as smart as you to be able to get good grades without adequate studying... Show me the way jedi master 😛

Yeah, I do feel good. When you work your ass off for something it just seems to feel better after you accomplish your goal. Again, if you could just give me a piece of your intellectual know-how, that I may be able to be a slacker and successful

Whether you realize it or not, your comment that "maybe I'm just not as smart as you to be able to get good grades without adequate studying" supports the point I have been making all along. Everyone has to do some work of course, but some people will work waaaaaaay harder than others and end up doing the same or worse than people who did far less work. As an extreme example, a friend of mine was a mech. engineer and used to study the night before his toughest physics tests. I knew other engineers who'd study for days for these exams, but when the grades came back he'd still kick their a** cause he was just smarter than them when it came to physics. And as far as I could tell, he felt pretty damn fine waiting till the last minute and setting the curve. Some people (with the same mentality as some of the supporters of this sappy post) would give him a hard time and call him a slacker, but at the end of the day, he was playing Madden with me and sitting on a couple A's while they were in the library studying physics problems.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

I'm sure you've heard of 4.0 and 45 MCAT folks not being accepted or only having one acceptance. Or you've heard of people with less than 3.0s having multiple acceptances and you ask yourself, 'WTF.'

The one thing that you can be sure ties all accepted applicants to medical school together is that they've proven they can work hard.

Some people had to split their time between families and work and other non-premed stuff, and didn't have the best grades but proved that they wanted this bad enough they were willing to work hard.

Well said! I just want to post something from another thread I was writing for.

Also, more important than grades and scores, you need to ask: what have you done to contribute to your community? What have you created that was a benefit to someone else? Accomplishments in life will carry you further in this application game then simply getting good grades and scores. Find worthy organizations to contribute your time. This one was started by a student in college: http://www.uniteforsight.org/board_directors.php

I am certain she'll have no problems landing a sweet residency spot even if she graduates with average grades in medical school. Programs will be fighting to recruit this young student-physician who launched her own non-profit entity as a sophomore in college.

One of my friends in college was brilliant. 4.0 GPA, and 14-15's on the MCAT. He was rejected from every school except his state school because he was a dud. He did nothing to help others. He did not contribute his time to a greater cause then himself.

 

[sunnyjohn]

Make yourself a well-rounded candidate.

Pre-med's focus so much of their time on one thing that many of them miss the mark.

You need MORE than good grades and and a high MCAT score.

The person with tunnel vision and a one-dimensional personality will come off as a dud on paper.

If you spend time cultivating true interests along with good numbers you help yourself.

Blessed are the balanced, they will outlast us all.

 

[WhatUpDoc!]

Whether you realize it or not, your comment that "maybe I'm just not as smart as you to be able to get good grades without adequate studying" supports the point I have been making all along. Everyone has to do some work of course, but some people will work waaaaaaay harder than others and end up doing the same or worse than people who did far less work. As an extreme example, a friend of mine was a mech. engineer and used to study the night before his toughest physics tests. I knew other engineers who'd study for days for these exams, but when the grades came back he'd still kick their a** cause he was just smarter than them when it came to physics. And as far as I could tell, he felt pretty damn fine waiting till the last minute and setting the curve. Some people (with the same mentality as some of the supporters of this sappy post) would give him a hard time and call him a slacker, but at the end of the day, he was playing Madden with me and sitting on a couple A's while they were in the library studying physics problems.

Wow, I thought the jedi master metaphor would have definitely given away my sarcasm. Anyways, I stand by my conviction... and you obviously cherish yours... so keep playing your football and hammerin out A's and I'll close the library down every night wishin I could be like you and your engineering friend. I realize that life is just not fair 🙄

 

[g3pro]

Pre-med's focus so much of their time on one thing that many of them miss the mark.

That's idiotic.

The point of spending time is not to spend time spread too thin. It's to excel in areas that are extremely important to you. What medical school wants a student who is mediocre at everything he does?

 

[velo]

That's idiotic.

The point of spending time is not to spend time spread too thin. It's to excel in areas that are extremely important to you. What medical school wants a student who is mediocre at everything he does?

well if you can only think in extremes then you're both idiotic. Its idiotic to spread yourself so thin that you're mediocre at everything, and its also idiotic to focus exclusively on a handful of activities. Medicine is about balancing multiple responsibilites and doing it all well

 

[gujuDoc]

well if you can only think in extremes then you're both idiotic. Its idiotic to spread yourself so thin that you're mediocre at everything, and its also idiotic to focus exclusively on a handful of activities. Medicine is about balancing multiple responsibilites and doing it all well

Ok this is my point exactly.

Sooooooooo many people are pointing out the extreme cases rather then looking at the fact that most successful people are not these extreme cases but somewhere in between.

For instance, someone on here posted about having a 2.0 and 22 MCAT. Well that is clearly a case, where HARD WORK WAS NOT THERE, not a mentally challenged person. I highly doubt, anyone who realizes their potential and how hard they really need to study to do well would have those kind of grades and MCAT. They wouldn't even be considered for med school until their GPA went up to 3.0 at the minimum. MCAT cutoffs relative to school. My school has cutoffs of 24

Smarts may carry you far enough to get into medical school, but as Dr. Yo put it, once you are there, your smarts alone won't carry you through the end of medical school.

In life, in general, working hard is important as knowing your stuff. For some it takes that hard work ethic to get the grades some get with a night's worth of studying.

The point of grades, on some level, besides intelligence demonstration, is to show your work ethic to some degree.


But while numbers matter, they only account for the first 40-50%. You still need the other things as well.

Maybe, REL can come on here and comment from and admissions directors perspective.

 

[QofQuimica]

Maybe, REL can come on here and comment from and admissions directors perspective.

If you want him to read your post or thread, you should write USF in it so that he'll find it when he searches the forum. So now he probably will see this one. 😉

I don't think that we will ever truly understand exactly what adcoms want. If I ever figure it out, I'll write a book, or at least start a new subforum about it. 😛 On a completely different note, I'm almost positive that Dr. Yo is female, but everyone here keeps calling her "he."

 

[REL]

If you want him to read your post or thread, you should write USF in it so that he'll find it when he searches the forum. So now he probably will see this one. 😉

I don't think that we will ever truly understand exactly what adcoms want. If I ever figure it out, I'll write a book, or at least start a new subforum about it. 😛 On a completely different note, I'm almost positive that Dr. Yo is female, but everyone here keeps calling her "he."

Guju and Q, thanks for the invite, I'd be happy to respond based on our perspective alone --- adcoms respond to their schools etc., so some of what has been said by everyone does apply in some places. USF had the highest GPA/MCAT entering class averages in the state for several years until about 5 years ago. At that time we changed our thrust from putting a large percentage of emphasis on GPA/MCAT to looking more at the EC's and evening out the value of numbers and EC's. Some schools are "drunk with numbers" and believe that touting numbers means that they are a successful school. We have dropped from being the leader in numbers to having dropped about 10 points on the GPA and maybe 1-2 points on MCAT in favor of looking at a "motivation for medicine." That motivation is displayed by a consistent history of medical and community service volunteering, some physician shadowing, teamwork and leadership (note the order here), and some research is also good IF research is your bag. The new MSAR is great for many reasons 1) the numbers are now derived from AMCAS rather than input from the programs themselves reducing the possibility of "inadvertantly" enhancing your programs numbers and profile 2) it now shows a range of those who got in with MCAT as well as the average, 3) finally a percentage of matriculants who have medical/comm svc/research experience, and 4) it shows the last 3 years of residency choices by the graduates. We feel it is a success to have 120 students in a class that can do academics (3.65 GPA, 30 MCAT) that also have demonstrated the desire to help others in time of need and a teamwork ethic (translated, a class of 120 who will help each other, realizing that they are not competitors with each other). People with these qualities will get an interview in this state and will probably have their pick of programs after the smoke clears. Furthermore, the big 3 MD programs have a track record of placing graduates in ANY residency in the country consistently -- this is where the work ethic helps -- if you work hard as a team you will get those residencies. So now you have acceptances to all of the Florida MD schools -- congrats! Which do YOU choose and HOW do you choose? You will know which is best for you -- deep down inside you will know. Others will try to persuade you that one is better than the other, stick to your instincts. YOU need to be happy with your choice it will be an intense and rewarding 4 years. Do you want to be in a program which is in an area with a diverse patient population and heavy case loads or a slower pace, you have two choices each here. I suspect as a student you may want a chance to see and do, so I think the busier settings with more patients and diverse popluations lets you experience more. Curriculum is very important and often downplayed by programs. While you will get solid residencies after 4 years, each school has a different way to get there via the curriculum? Some do MUCH more clinical in the first two years in more varied facilities. Testing is different, some programs use the test as an evaluation AND teaching tool. Some provide courses in a linear fashion (courses are independent and dont take into account what you are learning in otherr courses during the same semester), others teach a system and all departments lecture/lab on the system you are learning providing an integrated learning approach. There are many more factors in deciding on the program for you.....from our perspective applicants are more than numbers, I suspect programs are too. From my perspective, I want you into the best program for you because that is where you will perform the best and serve our nation as a physician. I havent touched on research --- another time. Cheers.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thank you for your post, REL. I think you are correct that schools have unique "personalities," just as individual people do. I have found that each of the classes that I have taught has its own personality as well. Even though I am teaching the exact same material to demographically similar groups of students, no two classes are ever alike.

Whenever you have the time and inclination, I for one would definitely like to hear what you have to say regarding medical schools and research. 🙂

 

[KifsterDDS]

...with some of your post.

Graduate schools (especially competitive ones like medical school) are looking for grades and test scores primarily. You're fooling yourself if you think for an instant that these two items don't comprise 90% of that which makes you a competitive applicant (or a non-competitive applicant). The rest is just icing on the cake. If you don't have the minimum numbers, then you're in trouble. Trust me on this one. I speak from experience. Furthermore, if you want a certain school and someone else applying for the same spot has significantly better numbers than you, you're in trouble yet again. At first, it upset me. Then it made perfect sense to me, especially after starting dental school. Grades and scores are quite indicative of how hard you will work. Had I entered dental school with my undergraduate study habits, I'd have been burned alive. Dental schools knew this, and made the right decision in rejecting me until I proved I could hack it. Medical schools, I'm assuming, know the same things that dental schools do in selecting applicants. Not only that, consider this: Despite their selectivity, qualified people (i.e. good grades and good scores) still sometimes fail out. Do you honestly think medical schools would want to waste their time on someone who would predictably flounder?

Yes, there are probably a few people here and there with "4.0 and 40J" being rejected. They probably applied much too late or had uncommonly poor interpersonal skills that manifested themselves as poor manners or sheer stupidity during an interview.

Another thing you should consider is that much of the anecdotal verbiage that crosses your ears is likely inaccurate, or at very least woefully incomplete. These rejection and acceptance stories should be taken with two grains of salt, not one.

I do agree with you that medical schools want people who will work hard and will truly care for their patients. In my opinion, they assess the former by your undergrad (or grad) performance. The latter they simply develop while you're there, although in all honesty, they are far more concerned with your ability to achieve and maintance the required level competence than actually caring about your patients. When you think about it, no doctor ever lost a lawsuit solely for not caring!

Otherwise, good post!

Alright, don't say DrYo never gave you nuthin'...

People will tell you all kinds of crap about what the adcoms are looking for--all from the applicant and the 'I've heard X, Y or Z' perspective. I am most assuredly telling you that the bottom line is that they're looking for people willing to work hard.

Sure, they want to make sure that you have some kind of idea of what you're going into--shadow physicians, work in clinics, etc, etc.

Yes, be sure to volunteer your time and if you say you want to help people, help people--volunteering with health organizations, children's organizations, services for poor people, etc., etc.

They also most definitely want to make sure that you embody those qualities that one would seek in a physician--caring, compassionate, smart, well-rounded, blah, blah, blah.

...HOWEVER...

I'm sure you've heard of 4.0 and 45 MCAT folks not being accepted or only having one acceptance. Or you've heard of people with less than 3.0s having multiple acceptances and you ask yourself, 'WTF.'

The one thing that you can be sure ties all accepted applicants to medical school together is that they've proven they can work hard.

Some people had to split their time between families and work and other non-premed stuff, and didn't have the best grades but proved that they wanted this bad enough they were willing to work hard.

Others didn't have distractions and received some wonderful financial and emotional support from their families, worked hard to achieve good grades and participated in some outstanding extracurriculars and demonstrated another brand of desire and willingness to work hard.

Still others went off, had another career, came back and worked hard to complete the prereqs despite all the life events happening around them and demonstrated a committment and willingness to work hard to make a dream a reality.

In all those cases, they proved to an admissions committee that they were willing to work hard and do what they could to make their future happen. When you get into medical school, substituting intellect for hard work isn't going to get you very far. You may be smarter than the guy or gal sitting next to you, but if they know how to work hard and apply themselves in a way you don't, being smarter won't mean a thing because they will outperform you every day with the sheer volume of work that they are willing to do that you may or may not be prepared to put into your studies. Adcoms want to make sure that you know how to work hard before you get into medical school so that once you get there, you can apply what you know. Medical school isn't challenging because its too difficult--its hard because they're hitting you with a firehose of information and asking you to take a drink.

 

[CoffeeFreak]

hey dentist....

give it a rest already. everyone is aware of your point.

the horse is dead, quit beating it. your monologues are growing tiresome.

go tell someone to floss or something. 😴

 

[CavalierMD]

bumping this, given the current state of app-cycle histeria. it's a good read.

 

[bioboy2007]

well i hope the adcoms will look at the fact that i work at least 40 hours per week, have a house, wife, kids (will have 2 by the time med school starts), and can still pull a 3.7 GPA and do shadowing so i can work hard!

Do you sleep?!?!

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Do you sleep?!?!

try doing all that while pregnant. god i hope adoms care.

 

[Anastasis]

REL mentioned this thread so I thought I would give it a bump.