Med School admissions is getting too competitive.

[raptarious]

After preparing to get into a cycle, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the med school admissions system is not futureproof and will eventually become completely impractical.

The problem is simply that it's just getting to competitive while the applicants are still completely and absolutely qualified to be doctors. There is a doctor shortage, application surplus, but not enough schools are being created to keep up.

Back in the day, if you wanted to become a doctor, you just had to get the GPA, get an MCAT that isn't garbage, submit the app, and pretend to be a sociable individual in your interview. Boom, you're in. This is what your 50-something year old family doctor and neurosurgeon did. This is what you should have to go through, but it isn't because population boom.

Now you absolutely need extensive research, volunteering, LoRs that talk you up beyond your ability, unnecessary shadowing hours, ECs that make you stand out, and even all that isn't enough. Meeting this kind of criteria is clearly set up for privileged individuals, who old doctors of today were lucky as hell to have avoided going through.

The applicant population just keeps on increasing every year yet the LCME wants to keep their elitist values and make things even more competitive with their ridiculous accreditation practices.

Becoming a doctor shouldn't be some kind of extremely competitive sport. Today's intellectually and socially competent premeds need to do something about it besides conforming and making it even more difficult for future premeds. And faculty needs to respect the financial and emotional sacrifice premedical students are willing to take for a quality medical education and take initiative to fix the system with their accreditation superiors, whether it's significantly expanding their own schools or suggesting to the state to add more. They owe it to us.

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[Fedekz]

I agree that it has probably gotten more competitive over the years, but we don't want them to open up the flood gates and welcome everyone who took bio 1 and 2 and can tie their shoes in. There are a lot of options out there between MD and DO. I think something like 40% of applicants get accepted each year? I don't have the source for that statistic, but I've heard it before. That's really not that bad of odds, 40%.

 

[WonderGrill]

I don't understand much about this subject, and I'm sure that there's a reason it doesn't happen. But I've always wondered why schools simply just don't accept more applicants. All of the doctors I've talked to have said that they worked 80-120 hours per week as a resident. How can you expect someone to function properly in those conditions? Especially someone who could be doing surgery on you? Just hire more doctors and relieve some pressure. I agree with OP when he/she says that "Becoming a doctor shouldn't be some kind of extremely competitive sport". It seems to me like the system is super competitive just for the sake of being super competitive.

 

[Pacna]

After preparing to get into a cycle, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the med school admissions system is not futureproof and will eventually become completely impractical.

The problem is simply that it's just getting to competitive while the applicants are still completely and absolutely qualified to be doctors. There is a doctor shortage, application surplus, but not enough schools are being created to keep up.

Back in the day, if you wanted to become a doctor, you just had to get the GPA, get an MCAT that isn't garbage, submit the app, and pretend to be a sociable individual in your interview. Boom, you're in. This is what your 50-something year old family doctor and neurosurgeon did. This is what you should have to go through, but it isn't because population boom.

Now you absolutely need extensive research, volunteering, LoRs that talk you up beyond your ability, unnecessary shadowing hours, ECs that make you stand out, and even all that isn't enough. Meeting this kind of criteria is clearly set up for privileged individuals, who old doctors of today were lucky as hell to have avoided going through.

The applicant population just keeps on increasing every year yet the LCME wants to keep their elitist values and make things even more competitive with their ridiculous accreditation practices.

Becoming a doctor shouldn't be some kind of extremely competitive sport. Today's intellectually and socially competent premeds need to do something about it besides conforming and making it even more difficult for future premeds. And faculty needs to respect the financial and emotional sacrifice premedical students are willing to take for a quality medical education and take initiative to fix the system with their accreditation superiors, whether it's significantly expanding their own schools or suggesting to the state to add more. They owe it to us.

It has been completely impractical for at least 5 years to continue to train docs on basic sciences (M1 + some of M2) for 50 large a year. All of that info is available online for free. It should be chopped out of the curriculum and added as a prereq.

The doctor shortage is due to limited residency positions, completely independent from medical school acceptance rates. As far as the impracticality of the current level of competitiveness, medical schools themselves are turning out an appropriate rate of graduates, and this number is steadily increasing anyhow. The fact that it's very competitive doesn't make it inappropriately so. We all know it sucks on the outside coming in.

Medical schools specifically screen for underprivileged individuals.

Also, they don't owe you s***.

 

[raptarious]

We owe them $300k and a resume's worth of accolades that weren't necessary for premeds 50-60 years ago and they don't owe us a couple more spots in their school? Oh okay

 

[Pacna]

We owe them $300k and a resume's worth of accolades that weren't necessary for premeds 50-60 years ago and they don't owe us a couple more spots in their school? Oh okay

You don't owe them that. They require it for admission. Not the same thing.

 

[WonderGrill]

The doctor shortage is due to limited residency positions, completely independent from medical school acceptance rates.

Don't like 90% of applicants get into a residency? Just going off of what other people have told me/what I've seen.

EDIT: Just checked, 97% of applicants find a residency.

 

[Flashfan]

Don't like 90% of applicants get into a residency? Just going off of what other people have told me/what I've seen.

There are only so many residencies. If more were funded, in theory they could add more spots into medical school. What you don't want is a set number of residency spots and more graduates than openings. You would then have $300,000 debt and no way to pay it back.

 

[cloudmurder1]

Yes, it is getting more and more competitve, but imagine if so many med schools opened up, and then so many students stopped matching. That would be much worse.

The current competitiveness is, like you said, due to the many people who want to be doctors.

Simply, it goes to show that in life, there are winners and there are losers.

 

[HybridEarth]

1) if they let basically anyone with half a brain become a doctor, we would have a lot of socially awkward people with no interpersonal skills whatsoever (I'd probably be one of those people if it hadn't been for years of doing certain things)

2) they can't just open up seats for the sake of doing so. They need to keep faculty to student ratios relatively constant to ensure that all students get well rounded education and attention

3) we're living in an age where there is an explosion of information in science. Med schools are doing their part to ensure that they pick people who can learn AND apply this information in a variety of contexts. GPA and MCAT studying doesn't teach you that.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I agree that it has probably gotten more competitive over the years, but we don't want them to open up the flood gates and welcome everyone who took bio 1 and 2 and can tie their shoes in. There are a lot of options out there between MD and DO. I think something like 40% of applicants get accepted each year? I don't have the source for that statistic, but I've heard it before. That's really not that bad of odds, 40%.

40% who apply to allopathic schools get in.

I believe osteopathic have similar numbers, though I suspect DO schools get even more apps that are absolute ass.

There is a thread somewhere where the adcomm posters estimate that about 50% of applicants never had a hope of getting in. This includes people with single digit MCATS and 2.x GPAs with no post-bac or SMP, people who have no genuine interest and in some cases state that they are just there for their parents, and people who are arrogant beyond belief and couldn't empathize their way out of a paper bag.

If that is really true, it looks like 4/5 or 80% of people who actually want to go to medical school and have the credentials that are openly stated on the schools web pages get in somewhere. That really isn't that bad....

Also, can you really not see why research or volunteering in your community are good things to do before entering medical school?

 

[Holmwood]

40% who apply to allopathic schools get in.

I believe osteopathic have similar numbers, though I suspect DO schools get even more apps that are absolute ass.

I think most premeds don't even get to the application stage, especially those from disadvantaged backgrounds. It doesn't exactly help that they need a university education in order to fulfill some of the med school pre-requisites, since many disadvantaged folks can't even make it there. Their health conditions may also dismiss them from the military route as well. It's a complicated issue with many fingers to point at, but I wouldn't oversimplify the issue by saying it's the fault of medical school admissions or the LCME.

 

[efle]

I'd say the application stage itself isn't where people get screwed, it's needing an A- average grade record and a top 1/5th MCAT to feel decent about your odds that knocks most people out.

This whole thread so far summed up:

:

OP is upset he has slim odds and wants us to agree with him that it's because med schools are unreasonable, not because he built himself a **** app over the last few years.

 

[Axes]

Adding seats will make the MD/DO like a JD or MBA, where the barrier to entry is so low that getting into med school means nothing; you have to get into a top med school for it to be an achievement likely to bring professional success. The only way to bring down the admissions standards is for everyone to collectively decide to try less hard and do less things, which is impossible because there will always be someone who is willing to try harder. It's game theory, and the Nash equilibrium is to give 110%.

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

Cry me a river OP. The schools don't "require" good activities, grades, and mcat, they simply select the best available candidates that would be a good fit in order to form the best matriculating class they can. What do those best candidates have? They have good grades, good MCAT scores, and a wealth of extra curricular activities and life experiences. As medicine has become a more attractive profession, more and more people have decided to pursue it and invest their time and energy into gaining admission to a medical school. The result is a dramatic increase in the competition. "Back in the day" when all of our uncles and grandpas went to medical school, the profession wasn't seen as so desirable and that's why there weren't hordes of applicants vying for every spot. It's different nowadays.

So quit your bitching, put in the work, and improve your attitude. You shouldn't be handed a medical school acceptance just because you're decently competent, you need to earn it. So go out there like everyone else and put in the work to earn an acceptance instead of complaining with some pitiful argument about how it's too hard.

And don't even get me started about the doctor "shortage." If more medical schools opened up, that would only serve to increase the competition in the residency match process and would likely result in what @Axes said - you will only get a good spot if you went to a top ten school. And clearly you're totally against that "elitist" at selection process so you wouldn't want that. There are plenty doctors in the US, the only reason there is a doctor "shortage" is because most want to practice in large metropolitan areas and not out in the boonies. It's a doctor geographic distribution problem, not a pure shortage problem.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I believe the appropriate response here is "suck it up".

Good luck!

 

[NotASerialKiller]

After preparing to get into a cycle, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the med school admissions system is not futureproof and will eventually become completely impractical.

The problem is simply that it's just getting to competitive while the applicants are still completely and absolutely qualified to be doctors. There is a doctor shortage, application surplus, but not enough schools are being created to keep up.

Back in the day, if you wanted to become a doctor, you just had to get the GPA, get an MCAT that isn't garbage, submit the app, and pretend to be a sociable individual in your interview. Boom, you're in. This is what your 50-something year old family doctor and neurosurgeon did. This is what you should have to go through, but it isn't because population boom.

Now you absolutely need extensive research, volunteering, LoRs that talk you up beyond your ability, unnecessary shadowing hours, ECs that make you stand out, and even all that isn't enough. Meeting this kind of criteria is clearly set up for privileged individuals, who old doctors of today were lucky as hell to have avoided going through.

The applicant population just keeps on increasing every year yet the LCME wants to keep their elitist values and make things even more competitive with their ridiculous accreditation practices.

Becoming a doctor shouldn't be some kind of extremely competitive sport. Today's intellectually and socially competent premeds need to do something about it besides conforming and making it even more difficult for future premeds. And faculty needs to respect the financial and emotional sacrifice premedical students are willing to take for a quality medical education and take initiative to fix the system with their accreditation superiors, whether it's significantly expanding their own schools or suggesting to the state to add more. They owe it to us.

I recommend that you go on strike and not apply.

 

[hurryskurry]

Most of the issues are likely contextual, which may make the selection process somewhat unconscionable. We can't see the realities of class difference largely because the influences causing the differences are diffuse. We are blind until we can look the data on the issue and see that there's a statistical trend, and the most cogent way to explain the trend is to say that it's the social context of being poor that makes the disparity in GPA, MCAT, and ECs, and not in a "genetic" or "essential" component. (Since we'd expect that the "genetic" component is randomly distributed throughout the population, in order to explain why the metrics of ability are distributed as the are (along class or racial lines) we should assume that our society's treatment of or the realities of class and race create the disparity: i.e., the metrics aren't measuring ability alone, but also class and race.)

Medical schools are human institutions, but just making some room for underserved populations in one's class isn't the same thing as social justice. Medical schools are still going to take quantifiers of ability (like GPA and MCAT) and qualifiers (like E.C., P.S.) which have a cultural/economic component at face value (unless the school has some kind of really rigid and mathematically derived check-list that subverts human cognitive biases), because they have to make a considerable investment in students, and it's easier to pick safer bets (and most likely unfeasible to take someone who has a low GPA and MCAT and turn them around in four years). So it seems unfair to place the burden on Medical schools alone. Yes, as gatekeepers to one path to the middle class it can be argued that they have a moral responsibility to try to solve some of the social ills, but you can only do so much. The burden has to be put more onto the society at large, and primary education.

 

[deleted480308]

They owe it to us.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[panda16]

Honestly one of the (many) reasons why there are so many new requirements of premed students compared to 50 years ago is...wait for it....the field of medicine has advanced so drastically in that time that you need a whole new set of skills and competencies to keep up!

 

[hurryskurry]

Honestly one of the (many) reasons why there are so many new requirements of premed students compared to 50 years ago is...wait for it....the field of medicine has advanced so drastically in that time that you need a whole new set of skills and competencies to keep up!

The field of biochemistry has probably increased more rapidly in the same amount of time, but I'd suspect it's about has hard to land a PhD track position now than it was then. It might even be easier now.

I'd suspect it's competitive because of the number of applicants, and to be able to "rationally" make a decision between applicants you need more barriers. Each of the parts of the application is a way of differentiating between applicants. More applicants per spot => more applicants who are similar on paper => need more ways of differentiating between applicants.

 

[md-2020]

Agree w/ @SouthernSurgeon 100%. I'd much rather have the big hurdle in the educational phase rather than the job seeking phase. "Oh s*** my degree means nothing and I can't support my family while being in massive debt."

 

[gothicfoxes]

Medical school admissions is overwhelmingly competitive, but that competition is reasonable and needed. The field needs individuals who have a solid track record of sacrifices and dedication who will then use these habits to make an unwavering commitment to patient care and medicine. If you want to be a doctor, you need to prove it like the rest of us.

 

[NickNaylor]

Medical school admissions is overwhelmingly competitive, but that competition is reasonable and needed. The field needs individuals who have a solid track record of sacrifices and dedication who will then use these habits to make an unwavering commitment to patient care and medicine. If you want to be a doctor, you need to prove it like the rest of us.

IMO getting into medical school doesn't really demonstrate any of that. It's less than half of the minimal length of the overall training pathway. I'm not really sure you can demonstrate an "unwavering commitment" to anything at that stage.

It does weed out people that aren't serious about getting into medical school, but you still aren't likely to know first-hand what patient care is all about until midway through medical school. Even then it's not quite the same.

 

[efle]

IMO getting into medical school doesn't really demonstrate any of that. It's less than half of the minimal length of the overall training pathway. I'm not really sure you can demonstrate an "unwavering commitment" to anything at that stage.

It does weed out people that aren't serious about getting into medical school, but you still aren't likely to know first-hand what patient care is all about until midway through medical school. Even then it's not quite the same.

What do you think could be done to give pre meds a better idea of what patient care is about / demonstrate strong desire for it, if the current shadowing and clinical volunteering isn't doing the trick?

 

[NickNaylor]

What do you think could be done to give pre meds a better idea of what patient care is about / demonstrate strong desire for it, if the current shadowing and clinical volunteering isn't doing the trick?

Well, I've always said that the goal of pre-meds should be to get the best understanding possible given the opportunities available to them. This is sufficient for admission to medical school but should not be confused with actually understanding what being a physician entails beyond relatively superficial insights.

It's a side effect of the experiential/apprenticeship model of medical training: it's difficult to understand what you're getting yourself into until you do it.

 

[ChrisMack390]

Exactly.

For the most part, medical schools have chosen to keep the "gatekeeper" function at the pre-med stage.

Compare that to law school, where the gatekeeper is at the post-graduate, job-seeking stage.

Which is preferable? Harder to get in in the first place, or harder to get a job four years later with six figures of debt?

In some sense, this is commendable. Med schools could just as easily start cranking out hundreds of students with 6 figure debt and no hope at residency.

*cough*caribbean*cough*

 

[tea guzzling traveler]

Well, I've always said that the goal of pre-meds should be to get the best understanding possible given the opportunities available to them. This is sufficient for admission to medical school but should not be confused with actually understanding what being a physician entails beyond relatively superficial insights.

It's a side effect of the experiential/apprenticeship model of medical training: it's difficult to understand what you're getting yourself into until you do it.

I think only once in medical school while doing rotations does the ideal meet the reality.

However, I do think that one can see if broadly they are suited for medicine in general: good work ethic, interpersonal skills, good at academics, desire to help others. If not a yes in most of those, it might not be the field for that person.

There are only so many residencies. If more were funded, in theory they could add more spots into medical school. What you don't want is a set number of residency spots and more graduates than openings. You would then have $300,000 debt and no way to pay it back.

The critical issue. Opening more medical school spots would be a lot like taking immodium, just passing the problem on till a later date. I do agree that there should be more residency spots though.

 

[efle]

Well, I've always said that the goal of pre-meds should be to get the best understanding possible given the opportunities available to them. This is sufficient for admission to medical school but should not be confused with actually understanding what being a physician entails beyond relatively superficial insights.

It's a side effect of the experiential/apprenticeship model of medical training: it's difficult to understand what you're getting yourself into until you do it.

Makes sense. I like to tell myself that there's such a range of jobs under the MD umbrella that there's something out there that fits even the people who become jaded/disillusioned with the altruism and care giving aspect

 

[avgn]

How has OP just prepared for an application cycle when he said in 11/2014 that he's a sophomore? Coming from a school that only has a 35% 4-year graduation rate, it's not likely he's actually applying this cycle and graduating in 3 years.

On top of that, this is a guy who claims he aces his classes so easily that he really wants to jump into a medicine curriculum already, BUT he was so bored with his volunteering activities that they weren't worth his time. So he wanted to get involved with medicine ASAP in case he could "do something groundbreaking" by application time and fix the deficiencies in his app.

lol OP did your plans fall through and now you realize you're not competitive? It's okay..you should take 4 years to graduate. It would make you the top third of your class lol

 

[Upwardtrendfornow]

40% who apply to allopathic schools get in.

I believe osteopathic have similar numbers, though I suspect DO schools get even more apps that are absolute ass.

There is a thread somewhere where the adcomm posters estimate that about 50% of applicants never had a hope of getting in. This includes people with single digit MCATS and 2.x GPAs with no post-bac or SMP, people who have no genuine interest and in some cases state that they are just there for their parents, and people who are arrogant beyond belief and couldn't empathize their way out of a paper bag.

If that is really true, it looks like 4/5 or 80% of people who actually want to go to medical school and have the credentials that are openly stated on the schools web pages get in somewhere. That really isn't that bad....

Also, can you really not see why research or volunteering in your community are good things to do before entering medical school?

what about 2.x GPAs but killer post-bacc + SMPs?

 

[DokterMom]

Most of the issues are likely contextual, which may make the selection process somewhat unconscionable. We can't see the realities of class difference largely because the influences causing the differences are diffuse. We are blind until we can look the data on the issue and see that there's a statistical trend, and the most cogent way to explain the trend is to say that it's the social context of being poor that makes the disparity in GPA, MCAT, and ECs, and not in a "genetic" or "essential" component. (Since we'd expect that the "genetic" component is randomly distributed throughout the population, in order to explain why the metrics of ability are distributed as the are (along class or racial lines) we should assume that our society's treatment of or the realities of class and race create the disparity: i.e., the metrics aren't measuring ability alone, but also class and race.)

Medical schools are human institutions, but just making some room for underserved populations in one's class isn't the same thing as social justice. Medical schools are still going to take quantifiers of ability (like GPA and MCAT) and qualifiers (like E.C., P.S.) which have a cultural/economic component at face value (unless the school has some kind of really rigid and mathematically derived check-list that subverts human cognitive biases), because they have to make a considerable investment in students, and it's easier to pick safer bets (and most likely unfeasible to take someone who has a low GPA and MCAT and turn them around in four years). So it seems unfair to place the burden on Medical schools alone. Yes, as gatekeepers to one path to the middle class it can be argued that they have a moral responsibility to try to solve some of the social ills, but you can only do so much. The burden has to be put more onto the society at large, and primary education.

You're wrong on a few key points here...

First, the class distinctions ARE seen and are widely acknowledged, which is ONE reason applicants from SES disadvantaged backgrounds and racial minorities that face widespread discrimination are given some extra consideration. AdComs KNOW the benefits an upper-middle-class background with educated parents confers.

Second, why would you expect "that the "genetic" component is randomly distributed throughout the population"? There's a considerable component of intelligence that is heritable and also a significant correlation between intelligence and educational attainment and future economic success. While we might like to think that all are created equal, that really isn't true and there's a significant skew.

Third, as 'gatekeepers' medical schools do have a social responsibility, but it's not to right past wrongs or provide economic mobility opportunities as a means of achieving social justice or making reparations. Rather, it's to train future doctors to care for the full diversity of the patient base -- doctors who speak the language, understand the cultures and customs, fully grasp the social norms and pressures of the communities they serve.

 

[Hobakie]

After preparing to get into a cycle, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the med school admissions system is not futureproof and will eventually become completely impractical.

The problem is simply that it's just getting to competitive while the applicants are still completely and absolutely qualified to be doctors. There is a doctor shortage, application surplus, but not enough schools are being created to keep up.

Back in the day, if you wanted to become a doctor, you just had to get the GPA, get an MCAT that isn't garbage, submit the app, and pretend to be a sociable individual in your interview. Boom, you're in. This is what your 50-something year old family doctor and neurosurgeon did. This is what you should have to go through, but it isn't because population boom.

Now you absolutely need extensive research, volunteering, LoRs that talk you up beyond your ability, unnecessary shadowing hours, ECs that make you stand out, and even all that isn't enough. Meeting this kind of criteria is clearly set up for privileged individuals, who old doctors of today were lucky as hell to have avoided going through.

The applicant population just keeps on increasing every year yet the LCME wants to keep their elitist values and make things even more competitive with their ridiculous accreditation practices.

Becoming a doctor shouldn't be some kind of extremely competitive sport. Today's intellectually and socially competent premeds need to do something about it besides conforming and making it even more difficult for future premeds. And faculty needs to respect the financial and emotional sacrifice premedical students are willing to take for a quality medical education and take initiative to fix the system with their accreditation superiors, whether it's significantly expanding their own schools or suggesting to the state to add more. They owe it to us.

First life lesson my mother ever taught me: "Nobody owes you a damn thing".
I do agree that its getting increasingly harder ,but times have changed, we have adapted to newer technologies, newer diseases/epidemics, newer types of patients, newer methods of dealing with different patients, etc etc. I really don't think med school admissions people are trying to ruin premed lives by making it more and more difficult, they just need the types of students/professional who can keep up with the demand of all the present and future changes in the medical field. Besides its not just MD thats more difficult, nursing, pharm, dental, etc etc have all also stepped up their game, you are not the only one that has to deal with this.

 

[md-2020]

From perusing the OP's post history and the topic of this thread, I'm inclined to believe he is a troll.

But I got s*** on yesterday for raising similar concerns so what do I know 😉

 

[Mad Jack]

After preparing to get into a cycle, it's becoming increasingly obvious that the med school admissions system is not futureproof and will eventually become completely impractical.

The problem is simply that it's just getting to competitive while the applicants are still completely and absolutely qualified to be doctors. There is a doctor shortage, application surplus, but not enough schools are being created to keep up.

Back in the day, if you wanted to become a doctor, you just had to get the GPA, get an MCAT that isn't garbage, submit the app, and pretend to be a sociable individual in your interview. Boom, you're in. This is what your 50-something year old family doctor and neurosurgeon did. This is what you should have to go through, but it isn't because population boom.

Now you absolutely need extensive research, volunteering, LoRs that talk you up beyond your ability, unnecessary shadowing hours, ECs that make you stand out, and even all that isn't enough. Meeting this kind of criteria is clearly set up for privileged individuals, who old doctors of today were lucky as hell to have avoided going through.

The applicant population just keeps on increasing every year yet the LCME wants to keep their elitist values and make things even more competitive with their ridiculous accreditation practices.

Becoming a doctor shouldn't be some kind of extremely competitive sport. Today's intellectually and socially competent premeds need to do something about it besides conforming and making it even more difficult for future premeds. And faculty needs to respect the financial and emotional sacrifice premedical students are willing to take for a quality medical education and take initiative to fix the system with their accreditation superiors, whether it's significantly expanding their own schools or suggesting to the state to add more. They owe it to us.

The accreditation system is arguably the best in the world. It doesn't need to be fixed, it turns out the best doctors possible. Additionally, medical school seats have increased by nearly 6,000 in recent years, and we're going to reach the point soon that there aren't enough postgraduate training positions for the graduating students to enter, resulting in unemployed, indebted graduates that cannot become licensed to practice medicine. And, as another note, the schools don't owe you anything- you don't have a right to be a doctor, it is a privilege you must earn. You earn it by being better than all of the other people that want it, and by fitting the mission of the school to which you are applying, not by simply being "good enough."

Admissions have gotten ridiculous, but it is not the fault of the committees that your peers are trying so hard to stand out- it is your peers themselves. When medicine becomes less desirable due to salary cuts and lifestyle changes, the competition will drop. For now, we're approaching the peak of competitiveness, so you've just entered the process at an unfortunate time.

 

[Gandyy]

Exactly.

For the most part, medical schools have chosen to keep the "gatekeeper" function at the pre-med stage.

Compare that to law school, where the gatekeeper is at the post-graduate, job-seeking stage.

Which is preferable? Harder to get in in the first place, or harder to get a job four years later with six figures of debt?

I fully agree with you, however dont you think that the "gatekeeper" function at the pre-med stage is still a little too harsh even with the above consideration?

 

[Upwardtrendfornow]

might as well ask, guys I finished college this past spring with a 2.4 GPA and 210 credit hours (retakes, repeats, etc.).

My final 3 semesters I had a 4.0 and really turned it around but as you can say, by then it was too late. Is there anything I can do years from now to give myself a shot at a US MD? I think I am a better student now that can do well and handle med school if he was to try and go for it.

 

[NickNaylor]

I think only once in medical school while doing rotations does the ideal meet the reality.

However, I do think that one can see if broadly they are suited for medicine in general: good work ethic, interpersonal skills, good at academics, desire to help others. If not a yes in most of those, it might not be the field for that person.

Makes sense. I like to tell myself that there's such a range of jobs under the MD umbrella that there's something out there that fits even the people who become jaded/disillusioned with the altruism and care giving aspect

I agree with both of these points. At the end of the day, if you're honest with yourself, do some genuine reflection about whether medicine is the right career for you, and get as much information as possible given your stage, you will likely be fine. People run into problems when they, for lack of a better phrase, "don't trust their gut" or don't engage in meaningful research into both medicine as a career as well as other possible alternatives. Theoretically the admissions process gets at this process by de facto requiring things like clinical experience, volunteering, etc., but people that approach the admissions process only has a box-checking exercise without reflecting on their experiences or focusing solely on the end-game, for example, are at risk of being unfulfilled by medicine.

To give an example (and hopefully without putting words in his mouth), I think @circulus vitios is a prime example of this. He often talked about medicine as strictly a job that offers a fantastic salary with minimal work beyond getting into the training pathway, yet he dropped out of med school and went on to other things before finishing his first year. I don't mean that in a pejorative sense - I'm not ****ting on him for what he did by any means. But it serves as an example of what can happen if you don't engage in serious reflection on what the process entails, what your overall goals are, and if you think the intrinsic work of being a medical student/resident/doctor will be interesting or fulfilling enough to you to propel you through the arduous training process. If he still checks SDN, maybe he'll pop into this thread and give a more thorough perspective of his experience.

 

[avgn]

might as well ask, guys I finished college this past spring with a 2.4 GPA and 210 credit hours (retakes, repeats, etc.).

My final 3 semesters I had a 4.0 and really turned it around but as you can say, by then it was too late. Is there anything I can do years from now to give myself a shot at a US MD? I think I am a better student now that can do well and handle med school if he was to try and go for it.

Calculate your DO GPA. MD is lost because you will fail every single automatic screen.
What is your MCAT?

 

[Gandyy]

It has been completely impractical for at least 5 years to continue to train docs on basic sciences (M1 + some of M2) for 50 large a year. All of that info is available online for free. It should be chopped out of the curriculum and added as a prereq.

The doctor shortage is due to limited residency positions, completely independent from medical school acceptance rates. As far as the impracticality of the current level of competitiveness, medical schools themselves are turning out an appropriate rate of graduates, and this number is steadily increasing anyhow. The fact that it's very competitive doesn't make it inappropriately so. We all know it sucks on the outside coming in.

Medical schools specifically screen for underprivileged individuals.

Also, they don't owe you s***.

From what I understand its not really a doctor "shortage" per say. Its a doctor allocation problem. Correct?

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't understand much about this subject, and I'm sure that there's a reason it doesn't happen. But I've always wondered why schools simply just don't accept more applicants. All of the doctors I've talked to have said that they worked 80-120 hours per week as a resident. How can you expect someone to function properly in those conditions? Especially someone who could be doing surgery on you? Just hire more doctors and relieve some pressure. I agree with OP when he/she says that "Becoming a doctor shouldn't be some kind of extremely competitive sport". It seems to me like the system is super competitive just for the sake of being super competitive.

I don't think you understand the nature of training. You aren't there for long hours because they need the help, you're there because you need to learn. It takes 10,000 hours to become competent in a field, the goal is to get you as close to that competence point as possible by the end of training. If you were doing 40 hours a week, you'd have to train twice as long and you'd still be missing a lot in regard to continuity of care.

 

[avgn]

From what I understand its not really a doctor "shortage" per say. Its a doctor allocation problem. Correct?

Yes. It's also not "per say," per se. 😛

 

[NickNaylor]

It has been completely impractical for at least 5 years to continue to train docs on basic sciences (M1 + some of M2) for 50 large a year. All of that info is available online for free. It should be chopped out of the curriculum and added as a prereq.

The doctor shortage is due to limited residency positions, completely independent from medical school acceptance rates. As far as the impracticality of the current level of competitiveness, medical schools themselves are turning out an appropriate rate of graduates, and this number is steadily increasing anyhow. The fact that it's very competitive doesn't make it inappropriately so. We all know it sucks on the outside coming in.

Medical schools specifically screen for underprivileged individuals.

Also, they don't owe you s***.

Despite what the AAMC and AMA might say, there is no doctor shortage.

 

[Gandyy]

Yes. It's also not "per say," per se. 😛

a;ksjfpowqueopqwuerjadlfja;sl

 

[avgn]

a;ksjfpowqueopqwuerjadlfja;sl

That's not proper English, per se

 

[NotASerialKiller]

a;ksjfpowqueopqwuerjadlfja;sl

This is what happens when latin isn't a prerequisite.

 

[Gandyy]

That's not proper English, per se

omg, I was going to go pokemon status, but now....

 

[Gandyy]

This is what happens when latin isn't a prerequisite.

lol the trolling is real right now

 

[vellez]

If someone works hard during undergrad and has a good personality, it's not *that* hard to get into medical school.

 

[avgn]

omg, I was going to go pokemon status, but now....

IT IS NEVEE TOO LATE! POKEMON = II, per se
You want that, don't you?