Med School - is passing only what matters ?

[one11]

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[Instatewaiter]

Really depends what you want to do. If you are trying to get into an ultra-competitive residency you should have good grades. Plus, you will most likely know the info better if you have done well in the first 2 years so you will do better on Step 1.

Now if you know you are going to enter a field whose residency is comparatively easy to get, your grades will matter less. And while P=MD, at each step (college, med school, residency, fellowship) you have to make yourself look competitive to get to the next step.

In terms of the hierarchy, I have heard that the first 2 years make up only around 15% of what determines your residency. 3rd year rotations and Step 1 scores are the most important.

 

[Northerner]

hello ..

Hello!

I was Wondering, since Med-School is totally full...

Full of what? Full of...stuff?

do you think only what really matter is just "pass the course" ? even with low GPA ?

Yes, without a doubt. Only what really matter is just "pass the course".

Do you agree with the saying : ( just stay away from the " F " ) ?

Absolutely. Since the class is split into A's, B's, C's, and F's, you should definitely shoot for the lowest possible grade above being totally inept.

do you think passing Anatomy even with low grade is a successful mission ?

In fact, the very definition of a "successful mission" is to pass Anatomy with a low grade. What I consider the epitome of success in all my missions is to pass with sputtering shades of gray. No one would argue that, I'm glad you asked.

Is your optimum goal to pass the course only?

Yes. The OPTIMUM goal is only to receive a 70%. In fact, I once got carried away in a zealous streak and overstudied, putting myself at a 80%. That's a B, one11. Yeah, you're probably thinking the same thing I am - THAT'S CRAZY. What sick bastard has the gall to waltz around the school with the knowledge commensurate with a grade of B? An egotistical, overzealous, pretentious prick, that's who. Believe me when I tell you I didn't dare look an attending in the eye after that. They can read the repugnant overeducation slinking out of your eyes like nobody's business. It arouses contempt. Keep your head low, my friend. May my tale be cautionary example for you.

without giving any matter how much grades would you get ?

Well, unfortunately, they insist on issuing a grade for each course credit for which the student registers. So I'm stuck with about 14 units of the aforementioned unwanted B infecting my straight 2.0 average. That's 14 units of 3.0. I don't want to scare you with the math - let's just say it puts me WELL over a 2.0. Far enough over a 2.0 to where I feel like now everyone's expecting me to go into neurosurgery or derm. Like 2.2. There, I said it. You happy? Now I suppose I'm going to get 10 angry PMs about how much of a godforsaken elitist braggert I am. Anyway, in answer to your question, I'm not sure, but I don't think I give any matter how much grades would I get. Unless it puts me over a 70%. Then that's too much.

 

[Church]

In fact, I once got carried away in a zealous streak and overstudied, putting myself at a 80%. That's a B, one11. Yeah, you're probably thinking the same thing I am - THAT'S CRAZY. What sick bastard has the gall to waltz around the school with the knowledge commensurate with a grade of B? An egotistical, overzealous, pretentious prick, that's who. Believe me when I tell you I didn't dare look an attending in the eye after that. They can read the repugnant overeducation slinking out of your eyes like nobody's business. It arouses contempt. Keep your head low, my friend. May my tale be cautionary example for you.

So I'm stuck with about 14 units of the aforementioned unwanted B infecting my straight 2.0 average. That's 14 units of 3.0. I don't want to scare you with the math - let's just say it puts me WELL over a 2.0. Far enough over a 2.0 to where I feel like now everyone's expecting me to go into neurosurgery or derm. Like 2.2. There, I said it. You happy? Now I suppose I'm going to get 10 angry PMs about how much of a godforsaken elitist braggert I am.

Gunner.

I remember this wretched experience where I overstudied and brought in a 76... For gawd's sake! 6% of overstudying that could have been time better spent.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Think about the M1/2 material as board prep. The step 1 is the true discriminator across the country as far as the basic science years are concerned. Obviously the people who learned the material best while in class are predisposed to do the best on the boards, so don't take your classes too lightly if you want to go into something that requires an awesome step 1.

As far as "C=MD" (or pass=MD) goes, if you just pass, you will be an MD; and you may even get the residency you want. It just so happens that most med schools are full of quite competative people who do care what their grades are even if it is a pass/fail school.

Like I tell everybody else, just do your best for YOUR FUTURE PATIENTS! Don't worry about the other students. If you are giving your best effort, then trust in the adcom for believing that your best is good enough to make the profession proud. 😀

 

[Northerner]

Think about the M1/2 material as board prep. The step 1 is the true discriminator across the country as far as the basic science years are concerned. Obviously the people who learned the material best while in class are predisposed to do the best on the boards, so don't take your classes too lightly if you want to go into something that requires an awesome step 1.

As far as "C=MD" (or pass=MD) goes, if you just pass, you will be an MD; and you may even get the residency you want. It just so happens that most med schools are full of quite competative people who do care what their grades are even if it is a pass/fail school.

Like I tell everybody else, just do your best for YOUR FUTURE PATIENTS! Don't worry about the other students. If you are giving your best effort, then trust in the adcom for believing that your best is good enough to make the profession proud. 😀

Don't listen to him.

One time during the last minutes of an exam I thought my knowledge was going to put me in B range so I squeezed my scrotum until the pain made me forget all about hyperthyroidism. Successful mission - 72%.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Hello!
Full of what? Full of...stuff?
Yes, without a doubt. Only what really matter is just "pass the course".
Absolutely. Since the class is split into A's, B's, C's, and F's, you should definitely shoot for the lowest possible grade above being totally inept.
In fact, the very definition of a "successful mission" is to pass Anatomy with a low grade. What I consider the epitome of success in all my missions is to pass with sputtering shades of gray. No one would argue that, I'm glad you asked.
Yes. The OPTIMUM goal is only to receive a 70%. In fact, I once got carried away in a zealous streak and overstudied, putting myself at a 80%. That's a B, one11. Yeah, you're probably thinking the same thing I am - THAT'S CRAZY. What sick bastard has the gall to waltz around the school with the knowledge commensurate with a grade of B? An egotistical, overzealous, pretentious prick, that's who. Believe me when I tell you I didn't dare look an attending in the eye after that. They can read the repugnant overeducation slinking out of your eyes like nobody's business. It arouses contempt. Keep your head low, my friend. May my tale be cautionary example for you.
Well, unfortunately, they insist on issuing a grade for each course credit for which the student registers. So I'm stuck with about 14 units of the aforementioned unwanted B infecting my straight 2.0 average. That's 14 units of 3.0. I don't want to scare you with the math - let's just say it puts me WELL over a 2.0. Far enough over a 2.0 to where I feel like now everyone's expecting me to go into neurosurgery or derm. Like 2.2. There, I said it. You happy? Now I suppose I'm going to get 10 angry PMs about how much of a godforsaken elitist braggert I am. Anyway, in answer to your question, I'm not sure, but I don't think I give any matter how much grades would I get. Unless it puts me over a 70%. Then that's too much.

This is the "I don't study!" guy! 34 days left for examinations , and the counting decrease! I'm sorry don't study guy, we know it's mean to make fun of the language skillz, but it's so freakin' hysterical sometimes we can't help it. The substance of your post, now, deserves all the bashing it can stand. Absolutely shoot for mediocrity! Your patients may not thank you for it, but their lawyers will!

 

[Ross434]

Med school is so.. totally full!

 

[Law2Doc]

hello ..

I was Wondering, since Med-School is totally full, do you think only what really matter is just "pass the course" ? even with low GPA ?

Do you agree with the saying : ( just stay away from the " F " ) ? do you think passing Anatomy even with low grade is a successful mission ?

Is your optimum goal to pass the course only? without giving any matter how much grades would you get ?

I too have no idea what you mean by "totally full". You do the best you can in med school. If that ends up being just passing, then so be it. But nobody strives for mediocrity, and I suspect those who do, would end up failing at some places. People who break away from the "pre-med" focus on grades and actually focus on learning the material for the sake of learning their trade often tend to do better, IMHO.

 

[TheMightyAngus]

My med school is entirely P/F for the first two years--no grades, no rankings, period. Hence, my signature.

I'll bust my ass for Step 1 and important clinical rotations, when the time comes.

Until then, I don't see any point. No one cares what happens during your first two years of med school anyway.

We have mandatory shelf exams after every block, so I have a decent idea of where I stand relative to my peers.

The world would be a better place if people stopped being gunners.

 

[CuriousGeorghe]

I can tell you at the school i am at (which is a mid ranked allopathic LCME school of intermediate prestige) your "deans letter" (they call it something different now) goes out with your residency application.

Programs are not informed what specific score you made in each class, but they ARE told what grades you made in each class and sent histograms that show how many people achieved each grade. This is done separately for the basic science years and the clinical rotations. Programs are informed which quartile you placed in for basic science and clinical years by histogram. They aren't told your exact position in that quartile or your exact place in any given range. Your board scores are also included; these are sort of the SAT for residencies, since they are the only thing that is the same for all medical students.

The modal grade for most classes here is "Pass". Apart from placing you in one quartile or another, two people who made straight passes at either end of the range would look similar. For purposes of quartile analysis, though, what kind of a "pass" you made would be a tiebreaker between people who had made equitable numbers of higher grades.

The question you might be asking now is "does the quartile I finish in matter?". To be honest, I am not sure. It deftinitely does if you're trying for something really competitive (Radiology, Opthamology, Anastehseiology, Dermatology "the ROAD to a good lifestyle")... but there are 2x as many allopathic residencies as allopathic graduates. The odds are pretty good that you will match as long as you pass everything. I am unsure as to how good of a residency you're likely to be able to get.... and further unsure as to how exactly you can tell one residency's quality from another, especially in less competitive disiciplines (internal medicine, neurology, pediatrics, family medicine). I'd welcome a serious post from anyone having knowledge of those questions.

The other question you get is "how does the last man at Harvard stack up to the first man at Howard" and all of the shades of grey in between. Naturally it would be much harder to do well at Harvard based upon who you are competing against. I suspect it is only the boards that can really help programs tease this information out.

 

[SelflessAct]

The world would be a better place if people stopped being gunners.

But not the low-profile gunners who still helped out their peers while striving for high rankings themselves. Those, I like.

 

[Law2Doc]

I suspect it is only the boards that can really help programs tease this information out.

They tease it out not just within schools but across all of allo. Doing better on the boards is always going to count more than the actual school you attend precisely because it is the one cross school credential residency directors have to look at.

And FWIW, the ROAD notion is somewhat outdated, as there are additional specialties that have become as competitive, and there are now more tiers of "competitive" (i.e. someone might be qualified for rads or gas but not have the credentials to consider derm or optho).

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I have already seen the following phenomenon among M3s..

M1 year: "I am planning to do primary care. P=MD man! Let's go have a beer."
---> Grade report: "P"
M2 year: "Step1? Ha! I just need to pass it, I'm going to do primary care."
---> Step1 report: 206
M3 year: "Ummm, I really like Ophtho. Crap."



This is how I would approach the issue.

1) Work hard regardless. You need to get ready for boards and some of the stuff (physiology comes readily to mind) is really, really important. If you are shuffling along getting 2 points above passing on shelf exams you might be in trouble since they are written by the same people who write USMLE. Aim to do the best you can while maintaining a small degree of sanity.

2) Don't freak out if you just get a Pass. It's not the end of the world and you can still do whatever you want to do. Just don't pretend it's somehow equivalent to honors.

 

[Wizard of Oz]

1) Work hard regardless. You need to get ready for boards and some of the stuff (physiology comes readily to mind) is really, really important. If you are shuffling along getting 2 points above passing on shelf exams you might be in trouble since they are written by the same people who write USMLE. Aim to do the best you can while maintaining a small degree of sanity.

2) Don't freak out if you just get a Pass. It's not the end of the world and you can still do whatever you want to do. Just don't pretend it's somehow equivalent to honors.

Agree with 1 big time and most of 2. Schools vary as to what constitutes an A or honor, and some are completely P/F. If pass is equivalent to C at my place, then you've got some issues learning the material and need to change what you're doing to study. I'm not saying that it's going to knock you out of anything, but it would indicate that you're well into the bottom quintile of my class which is not good as far as demonstration of USMLE material learning is concerned.

 

[cfdavid]

I have already seen the following phenomenon among M3s..

M1 year: "I am planning to do primary care. P=MD man! Let's go have a beer."
---> Grade report: "P"
M2 year: "Step1? Ha! I just need to pass it, I'm going to do primary care."
---> Step1 report: 206
M3 year: "Ummm, I really like Ophtho. Crap."



.

so true. i haven't seen it, but can imagine. that's why, even though i don't have any plans RIGHT NOW of any crazy competitive specialties, i'm trying my best to keep the doors open.

 

[excalibur]

As stated previously, your basic goal should be to pass the courses. That said, you should do the best you can in every class. For some people their best effort is going to constitute a pass in the course (no high pass or honors). If this happens, there's nothing you can do about it. You gave it your best, so be it, and you achieved the basic goal of passing.

 

[Gabujabu]

Have you found that what you learn in basic sciences has some correlation with USMLE material? In undergrad, what I learned in science courses had very little to do with what was on the MCAT.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

Have you found that what you learn in basic sciences has some correlation with USMLE material? In undergrad, what I learned in science courses had very little to do with what was on the MCAT.

The MCAT is essentially a test of cognition and aptitude. Most of the test involves using a broad base of conceptual (as opposed to factual) knowledge to figure out problems presented to you.

Step1 is absolutely not a test of cognition, it is a test of facts. The more you know the better you will do. You cannot blow off basic sciences and expect to game Step1 with your "test-taking skills."

My sample size is small but I know a few people with fairly disparate performance on the MCAT/Step 1. One guy got a 30 on the MCAT and then ended up with a 243 on Step1. Another girl got a 36 on the MCAT and landed a 233 on Step 1. All of those are good scores, but you can see how there is some play in the numbers.

 

[Neuronix]

Step1 is absolutely not a test of cognition, it is a test of facts. The more you know the better you will do. You cannot blow off basic sciences and expect to game Step1 with your "test-taking skills."

That's exactly what I did. I barely passed everything in first and second year. I barely passed my shelf exams in clinics (still managed HPs with good evals). I sat down and studied hard for a month and got a pretty high score on Step I.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

That's exactly what I did. I barely passed everything in first and second year. I barely passed my shelf exams in clinics (still managed HPs with good evals). I sat down and studied hard for a month and got a pretty high score on Step I.

You took clinical shelf exams before step1?

Furthermore, I would say that your situation is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Neuronix]

You took clinical shelf exams before step1?

Yes, I go to a school that takes clinics before step 1. MD/PhDs do 6 months of clinics before step 1, the MDs do the full year of clinics before step 1. This is because our basic science cirriculum is only 1.5 years.

Furthermore, I would say that your situation is the exception, not the rule.

Agreed. But is this because the people who tend not to study tend not to get their act together when it really counts as well? I don't know the answer to that question, but I'll propose it as a strong possibility. You have to know a ton just to pass in medical school. The difference between a P and an H at my school is often times reading the professors mind or learning stuff that isn't even on Step I.

 

[vtucci]

The MCAT is essentially a test of cognition and aptitude. Most of the test involves using a broad base of conceptual (as opposed to factual) knowledge to figure out problems presented to you.

Step1 is absolutely not a test of cognition, it is a test of facts. The more you know the better you will do. You cannot blow off basic sciences and expect to game Step1 with your "test-taking skills."

My sample size is small but I know a few people with fairly disparate performance on the MCAT/Step 1. One guy got a 30 on the MCAT and then ended up with a 243 on Step1. Another girl got a 36 on the MCAT and landed a 233 on Step 1. All of those are good scores, but you can see how there is some play in the numbers.

Amory- I don't know if I agree that the MCAT is purely a test of cognition and aptitude. That might be true of the verbal section but I do think there is a knowledgebase component on the other sections as some of us who did not have all the requirements completed before we took it learned.

I have seen the same trend you mentioned where students did badly on the LSAT (70 percentile) only to do phenomenonly well on the Bar exam (99 percentile) for law.

 

[45408]

Do your best. I can't study non-stop like some of my classmates seem to be able to do. I need a brain break to go fight the Nazis, relax with the wife, or sleep. I don't intentionally slack off, but I don't study as much as some people do. I just can't be awake at some of those hours. 😱

 

[Ashers]

Do your best. I can't study non-stop like some of my classmates seem to be able to do. I need a brain break to go fight the Nazis, relax with the wife, or sleep. I don't intentionally slack off, but I don't study as much as some people do. I just can't be awake at some of those hours. 😱

You don't study non-stop even when you find out how well some M2s do via SDN?

I started med school caring about grades which only stressed me out, then by 2nd semester I cared about learning the material (with the exception of Neuroanatomy). However, I've been told that "Any Pass is an immediate red flag" by an attending in the specialty I want to go into, so I study a lot more than the people who want to go into family practice, basically with the goal of understanding stuff for step 1.

 

[trustwomen]

I'll bust my ass for Step 1 and important clinical rotations, when the time comes.

Until then, I don't see any point. No one cares what happens during your first two years of med school anyway.

We have mandatory shelf exams after every block, so I have a decent idea of where I stand relative to my peers.

The world would be a better place if people stopped being gunners.

Agree with this.

My school has only P/F on the dean's letter (top 10% of the class gets on the dean's list, but not many people gun for it) but we are told our actual grades after each exam and can compare it with the class average. As long as I am at the average or better (usually high 70s/low 80s), I consider it a win. Our class is not competitive and we help each other out a lot. Before the P/F system, apparently people here used to be evil, evil.

I also intend to bust my ass for rotations and Step 1 (but if I screw up the latter, no harm done - I'm Canadian) 😀

 

[45408]

I've been told that "Any Pass is an immediate red flag" by an attending in the specialty I want to go into, so I study a lot more than the people who want to go into family practice, basically with the goal of understanding stuff for step 1.

That's just lame, IMO (the doc, not you). Who cares if the carpenters understand where the flocculus is? Seriously. 🙄

 

[Ashers]

That's just lame, IMO (the doc, not you). Who cares if the carpenters understand where the flocculus is? Seriously. 🙄

Flocculus? What? 😉

That comment did turn me a bit neurotic about grades for a little bit, but I've calmed down since. Though most times I see that doctor he's like "Don't do anything to hurt your grades! They're extremely important!"

 

[doctorp82]

When it comes to competitiveness for specialties, it's not so much a "standard" score from step 1 required for a specialty, at least not directly. There's people who become FP's and generalists who score really well, and just want to do that as a specialty. Every residency wants to take an outstanding candidate regardless of the specialty, it's just that you see those with higher scores aggregating around fields that are "lifestyle friendly" or "financially friendly".

My school is P/F as well, with honors possible in the second year. There is a lot of info that is not as board-relevant as others, and the tests are often more a reflection of the block director's choice of questions to add (case in point: last block's exam was, out of 185 questions, almost 50% pharm related to interactions, adverse effects, and management protocol).

 

[dnr]

But not the low-profile gunners who still helped out their peers while striving for high rankings themselves. Those, I like.

that's not a gunner

 

[psipsina]

I don't focus on the grades as much as I focus on really understanding the whys and the hows of everything I'm learning. Sometimes that correlates to higher grads and sometimes it correlates to just passing, depending on the particular question writers love of minutae or their own research. But for me being prepared for the step and for clinical years is more important than going all out for a HP or a H on my transcript. If I was ever failing for some reason I'd revert to studying exactly what a professor emphasized in their lecture to see if that worked better but that hasn't been the case so far.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

that's not a gunner

Do you regularly look through threads from 18 months ago to reply to?

 

[Law2Doc]

that's not a gunner

Please mention in your post whenever you are bumping up a year old thread so folks don't waste time responding to posters who may not even be on SDN anymore.

 

[mdgator]

Please mention in your post whenever you are bumping up a year old thread so folks don't waste time responding to posters who may not even be on SDN anymore.

I'm actually glad the thread was revived, b/c the third post is one of the funniest things I've read on SDN.

 

[bcat85]

hello ..

I was Wondering, since Med-School is totally full, do you think only what really matter is just "pass the course" ? even with low GPA ?

Do you agree with the saying : ( just stay away from the " F " ) ? do you think passing Anatomy even with low grade is a successful mission ?

Is your optimum goal to pass the course only? without giving any matter how much grades would you get ?

Good luck with verbal reasoning.👍