Med school knowledge

[Yadster101]

I know a few pre-meds/gap year students, w/ free time, that have wanted to "create a med school atmosphere" before starting school. I know the consensus is that its wayyyy better to just chillax before starting school...But it got me thinking: Would it even be possible? And if it is possible, then why are we paying 50k/yr to learn stuff we could do on our own?

How could someone learn ~80-90% of the MS1/MS2 curriculum on their own? I'd think that without professor powerpoints it'd be pretty hard. Could someone just read books like Gray's, Robbins, Katzung, and watch Pathoma + Najeeb and learn a great deal of the material? There are 3 main obstacles I see to this:

1) Tests. W/o professors giving exams, how would someone test themselves? Are there any resources that exist to test knowledge in all these fields?
2) Pace. How would someone organize the material to make sure they are getting through it at a similar pace as med students?
3) Content. Do resources for learning all the content on your own exist? Even w/ the books/videos I listed above how could someone learn physiology, immunology, cell biology, neuroanatomy, pharmacology, and cardiology? Are there any outside resources for these classes that would be almost as good as professors' ppt?

Edit: Ya guys I totes agree that enjoying time is better. My point was, is it even possible to learn the material on ones own or do we need med school to teach it? So is med school totally worth the cost for the first two years? Or could someone get the same knowledge by just paying for books/najeeb/pathoma/etc.?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Psai]

Probably better to just enjoy your summer

 

[Goro]

Go pick up a copy of Harrisons or Robbins.

Now, of those two textbooks, how would you know what's important, and what's not? Just because it's in the textbook, doesn't mean that med students need to know it.

Just do well in your current coursework.

 

[TheFutureFatMan]

Not that I'm a medical student but it sounds like the best way to create a similar environment would be to cover oneself in honey, go to a national park and wait for a bear to chase you. see who wins the race.

 

[Jabbed]

Med school (and tuition) is a huge sham. The vast majority of your education comes in the form of self-directed learning anyway. The only value that my institution has contributed to my education has been in lighting a fire under my ass to keep on pace with the material.

 

[Yadster101]

Med school (and tuition) is a huge sham. The vast majority of your education comes in the form of self-directed learning anyway. The only value that my institution has contributed to my education has been in lighting a fire under my ass to keep on pace with the material.

That's what I'm trying to get at. It's "self directed" but they still provide you with ppts. Maybe those ppt slides are worth ~50k/yr? Cuz how else would you learn? Is it possible to just use the books/lecture videos I mentioned by oneself?

 

[Jabbed]

That's what I'm trying to get at. It's "self directed" but they still provide you with ppts. Maybe those ppt slides are worth ~50k/yr? Cuz how else would you learn? Is it possible to just use the books/lecture videos I mentioned by oneself?

The ppts are worthless. I would say that a modestly proactive M3 could design a preclinical curriculum that is superior to the vast majority of medical school programs in the country using the widely available resources (books, online lecture services, and qbanks).

 

[Taddy Mason]

That's what I'm trying to get at. It's "self directed" but they still provide you with ppts. Maybe those ppt slides are worth ~50k/yr? Cuz how else would you learn? Is it possible to just use the books/lecture videos I mentioned by oneself?

By the second half of second year I was studying solely from outside sources and just writing the random minutiae sprinkled throughout lecture in the margins to make sure I reviewed it - the majority of which didn't show-up while studying for Step, plus there was all the material that kept popping up while studying for Step that was never covered in lecture. 99% of lectures in pre-clinical years are absolute garbage.

 

[Psai]

That's what I'm trying to get at. It's "self directed" but they still provide you with ppts. Maybe those ppt slides are worth ~50k/yr? Cuz how else would you learn? Is it possible to just use the books/lecture videos I mentioned by oneself?

No. You don't know what the pace is like until you're in it. Have you ever felt like you were behind every single day? I spent all day studying and I was always behind.

 

[Yadster101]

The ppts are worthless. I would say that a modestly proactive M3 could design a preclinical curriculum that is superior to the vast majority of medical school programs in the country using the widely available resources (books, online lecture services, and qbanks).

By the second half of second year I was studying solely from outside sources and just writing the random minutiae sprinkled throughout lecture in the margins to make sure I reviewed it - the majority of which didn't show-up while studying for Step, plus there was all the material that kept popping up while studying for Step that was never covered in lecture. 99% of lectures in pre-clinical years are absolute garbage.

I agree with both of you, but point #1 (tests) and #2 (pace) remain. How would a student test themselves regularly and maintain the pace of med school? If you used qbanks, then wouldn't you waste all the questions and have nothing to use during dedicated Step 1?

The idea I'm trying to get at, is what if after undergrad people just studied MS1/Ms2 material on their own using w/e resources they wanted. Then after they passed Step 1 on their own, they paid for MS3/Ms4 and then went onto residency. This would save two years worth of tuition which for many comes out to 100k+. I made a 1st yr schedule below + resources, how would you guys edit it?

Graduate College + take a summer break
August - December: Study Anatomy (Essential Clinical Anatomy + UMich), Immuno (How the Immune System Works, Sompayrac), Biochem (Lipincott's+BRS+Najeeb)
January - May: Physio (Najeeb), micro, path(pathoma), neuroanatomy (Najeeb)
June - July: Chill out
2nd Year: Pharm, cardio, gastro, endo, renal, neuro, psych, path

 

[Psai]

If you're trying to get the basics down from just a few review books you're going to have a bad time

 

[Yadster101]

No. You don't know what the pace is like until you're in it. Have you ever felt like you were behind every single day? I spent all day studying and I was always behind.

Ya I agree it's hard but I definitely don't spend all day studying. If I did maybe my grades would be better. Some of my med school classmates were engineering majors in undergrad and I get the feeling that med school isn't that much harder for them.

 

[Jabbed]

No. You don't know what the pace is like until you're in it. Have you ever felt like you were behind every single day? I spent all day studying and I was always behind.

This. I have a shelf exam in 7 weeks and I'm already neurotically obsessing about how far behind I am.

 

[PL198]

I agree with both of you, but point #1 (tests) and #2 (pace) remain. How would a student test themselves regularly and maintain the pace of med school? If you used qbanks, then wouldn't you waste all the questions and have nothing to use during dedicated Step 1?

The idea I'm trying to get at, is what if after undergrad people just studied MS1/Ms2 material on their own using w/e resources they wanted. Then after they passed Step 1 on their own, they paid for MS3/Ms4 and then went onto residency. This would save two years worth of tuition which for many comes out to 100k+. I made a 1st yr schedule below + resources, how would you guys edit it?

Graduate College + take a summer break
August - December: Study Anatomy (Essential Clinical Anatomy + UMich), Immuno (How the Immune System Works, Sompayrac), Biochem (Lipincott's+BRS+Najeeb)
January - May: Physio (Najeeb), micro, path(pathoma), neuroanatomy (Najeeb)
June - July: Chill out
2nd Year: Pharm, cardio, gastro, endo, renal, neuro, psych, path

what? you realize people use qbanks outside of dedicated study, right?

 

[MedNation907]

It's overpriced but there's no way I'd have the motivation to cover the amount of material without structure. Not all lectures are amazing, sure but the vast majority do what they're supposed to. Lectures can't be high yield because we have to learn **** first lol. If school was boiled down to only HY stuff then UFAP would be repetitive and we'd essentially learn less being exposed to less...

 

[Donald Juan]

Your med school should be teaching much more in depth than the boards, and without the base knowledge the board review material is meaningless. Those of us that tried to do dumb stuff like study before med school or use first aid during the M1-M2 summer know this.

 

[Taddy Mason]

I agree with both of you, but point #1 (tests) and #2 (pace) remain. How would a student test themselves regularly and maintain the pace of med school? If you used qbanks, then wouldn't you waste all the questions and have nothing to use during dedicated Step 1?

The idea I'm trying to get at, is what if after undergrad people just studied MS1/Ms2 material on their own using w/e resources they wanted. Then after they passed Step 1 on their own, they paid for MS3/Ms4 and then went onto residency. This would save two years worth of tuition which for many comes out to 100k+. I made a 1st yr schedule below + resources, how would you guys edit it?

Graduate College + take a summer break
August - December: Study Anatomy (Essential Clinical Anatomy + UMich), Immuno (How the Immune System Works, Sompayrac), Biochem (Lipincott's+BRS+Najeeb)
January - May: Physio (Najeeb), micro, path(pathoma), neuroanatomy (Najeeb)
June - July: Chill out
2nd Year: Pharm, cardio, gastro, endo, renal, neuro, psych, path

The primary issue is pace/motivation. The only areas lacking good review questions outside of qbanks are micro, pharm, and immuno - and mastery of most of that material is more dependent on rote memorization.

 

[Yadster101]

Your med school should be teaching much more in depth than the boards, and without the base knowledge the board review material is meaningless. Those of us that tried to do dumb stuff like study before med school or use first aid during the M1-M2 summer know this.

Ya but I'm saying if self studying, instead of forking over 100k, was an option, how would one do it? Are you saying it's impossible to learn ~90% of this stuff without my professors giving me ppt slides and an exam every 3 weeks?

 

[FindMeOnTheLinks]

I agree with both of you, but point #1 (tests) and #2 (pace) remain. How would a student test themselves regularly and maintain the pace of med school? If you used qbanks, then wouldn't you waste all the questions and have nothing to use during dedicated Step 1?

The idea I'm trying to get at, is what if after undergrad people just studied MS1/Ms2 material on their own using w/e resources they wanted. Then after they passed Step 1 on their own, they paid for MS3/Ms4 and then went onto residency. This would save two years worth of tuition which for many comes out to 100k+. I made a 1st yr schedule below + resources, how would you guys edit it?

Graduate College + take a summer break
August - December: Study Anatomy (Essential Clinical Anatomy + UMich), Immuno (How the Immune System Works, Sompayrac), Biochem (Lipincott's+BRS+Najeeb)
January - May: Physio (Najeeb), micro, path(pathoma), neuroanatomy (Najeeb)
June - July: Chill out
2nd Year: Pharm, cardio, gastro, endo, renal, neuro, psych, path

lol @ trying to learn physio, path, micro and neuro all in 5 months using review sources


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Yadster101]

lol @ trying to learn physio, path, micro and neuro all in 5 months using review sources


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Yadster101]

Pathoma is pretty comprehensive. I should have added Robbins also if you look I also added path into ms2. You don't think if I gave a smart college grad a copy of Robbins + pathoma that they could learn path?

 

[MedNation907]

Pathoma is pretty comprehensive. I should have added Robbins also if you look I also added path into ms2. You don't think if I gave a smart college grad a copy of Robbins + pathoma that they could learn path?

I think they would know things but I really don't think it would touch a curriculum based alternative. I mean I could pre-read a path lecture, see pictures with subtext that perfectly describes whats going on but until someone delivers it i don't REALLY know it. I just think it's necessary, and self-learning wouldn't be sufficient.

Edit: my path professor always says "can you appreciate the fact that these lipid-laden macrophages are different and blah blah?" I don't until she points it out lol

 

[cbrons]

I know a few pre-meds/gap year students, w/ free time, that have wanted to "create a med school atmosphere" before starting school. I know the consensus is that its wayyyy better to just chillax before starting school...But it got me thinking: Would it even be possible? And if it is possible, then why are we paying 50k/yr to learn stuff we could do on our own?

How could someone learn ~80-90% of the MS1/MS2 curriculum on their own? I'd think that without professor powerpoints it'd be pretty hard. Could someone just read books like Gray's, Robbins, Katzung, and watch Pathoma + Najeeb and learn a great deal of the material? There are 3 main obstacles I see to this:

1) Tests. W/o professors giving exams, how would someone test themselves? Are there any resources that exist to test knowledge in all these fields?
2) Pace. How would someone organize the material to make sure they are getting through it at a similar pace as med students?
3) Content. Do resources for learning all the content on your own exist? Even w/ the books/videos I listed above how could someone learn physiology, immunology, cell biology, neuroanatomy, pharmacology, and cardiology? Are there any outside resources for these classes that would be almost as good as professors' ppt?

Edit: Ya guys I totes agree that enjoying time is better. My point was, is it even possible to learn the material on ones own or do we need med school to teach it? So is med school totally worth the cost for the first two years? Or could someone get the same knowledge by just paying for books/najeeb/pathoma/etc.?

No you don't need med schools to teach basic science stuff at all whatsoever. And yes you can get all that knowledge from internet lectures and textbooks, many of which can be obtained in electronic format. Some online lectures (i.e. Najeeb physiology) are likely to be 100x better than what is provided by your medical school.

 

[67552931811]

No. You don't know what the pace is like until you're in it. Have you ever felt like you were behind every single day? I spent all day studying and I was always behind.

A family member, who is a grey-haired doc, told me before I started med school: "From the first day of medical school until I graduated, I was behind."

No truer words have ever been spoken.

 

[Wordead]

Pathoma is pretty comprehensive. I should have added Robbins also if you look I also added path into ms2. You don't think if I gave a smart college grad a copy of Robbins + pathoma that they could learn path?

Pathoma is fantastic for a foundation but it is in no way comprehensive. It's pretty bare bones actually.

 

[Yadster101]

I think they would know things but I really don't think it would touch a curriculum based alternative. I mean I could pre-read a path lecture, see pictures with subtext that perfectly describes whats going on but until someone delivers it i don't REALLY know it. I just think it's necessary, and self-learning wouldn't be sufficient.

Edit: my path professor always says "can you appreciate the fact that these lipid-laden macrophages are different and blah blah?" I don't until she points it out lol

No you don't need med schools to teach basic science stuff at all whatsoever. And yes you can get all that knowledge from internet lectures and textbooks, many of which can be obtained in electronic format. Some online lectures (i.e. Najeeb physiology) are likely to be 100x better than what is provided by your medical school.

I personally agree with Cbrons, but its just weird to me that you guys have totally opposite opinions that you both state so matter of factly. It's as if going to diff schools results in COMPLETELY diff experiences. MedNation are your professors lectures really THAT good that robbins + Pathoma couldn't even "touch a curriculum based alternative"? What do you mean that you "don't REALLY know it" until your professor delivers it to you? Like Cbrons said, don't some of these professors, like Najeeb, deliver the material as good as, if not better than, a typical professor?

Also Cbrons, I know you like Najeeb for physio. What other resources do you feel "the best med school in the world" would have? Pathoma, Najeeb (neuroanatomy + physio), Costanzo's, Lippincott's etc?

 

[Psai]

a) robbins is a textbook. if you're reading a textbook in medical school, your school probably isn't pushing you hard enough
b) pathoma is incredibly well done but it's the bare minimum knowledge of pathology that you need. it's not even close to comprehensive. You might be a whiz at reciting a multiplication table but that's different from doing algebra

 

[Law2Doc]

There's really no discipline that you couldn't pick up a book and get some overview. That's true for business, law, medicine, dentistry, whatever. But really what's the point? You aren't going to absorb and retain enough of the useful stuff on your own. You won't do better than the people who enjoyed their summer. You don't even really know what the useful stuff you need to emphasize is. You won't have the benefit of lecturers and classmates explaining things, so you'll likely learn many things "wrong", which is dangerous because sometimes that's what sticks.

And there's time enough to learn it in med school -- it's all about immersion. The guy who picks up a Spanish tape and tries to teach himself Spanish over the summer is never going to have much of a jump on the guy who immerses himself in a Spanish speaking country for a few weeks. So no point.

Just rest up and be ready to hit the ground running. Med school is really foundation anyway -- the first year grades count a lot less than you think, and you'll spend much of the time learning how to learn more effectively.

But it's the immersion that makes the difference -- you do mostly med school learning every week, with a high nonstop volume thrown at you, high expectations just to not be in the bottom half of a very smart group of people, and you surround yourself with others in the same boat. That's something you can't simulate by yourself with books.

 

[Psai]

There's really no discipline that you couldn't pick up a book and get some overview. That's true for business, law, medicine, dentistry, whatever. But really what's the point? You aren't going to absorb and retain enough of the useful stuff on your own. You won't do better than the people who enjoyed their summer. You don't even really know what the useful stuff you need to emphasize is. You won't have the benefit of lecturers and classmates explaining things, so you'll likely learn many things "wrong", which is dangerous because sometimes that's what sticks.

And there's time enough to learn it in med school -- it's all about immersion. The guy who picks up a Spanish tape and tries to teach himself Spanish over the summer is never going to have much of a jump on the guy who immerses himself in a Spanish speaking country for a few weeks. So no point.

Just rest up and be ready to hit the ground running. Med school is really foundation anyway -- the first year grades count a lot less than you think, and you'll spend much of the time learning how to learn more effectively.

But it's the immersion that makes the difference -- you do mostly med school learning every week, with a high nonstop volume thrown at you, high expectations just to not be in the bottom half of a very smart group of people, and you surround yourself with others in the same boat. That's something you can't simulate by yourself with books.

Perfect.

 

[MedNation907]

I personally agree with Cbrons, but its just weird to me that you guys have totally opposite opinions that you both state so matter of factly. It's as if going to diff schools results in COMPLETELY diff experiences. MedNation are your professors lectures really THAT good that robbins + Pathoma couldn't even "touch a curriculum based alternative"? What do you mean that you "don't REALLY know it" until your professor delivers it to you? Like Cbrons said, don't some of these professors, like Najeeb, deliver the material as good as, if not better than, a typical professor?

Also Cbrons, I know you like Najeeb for physio. What other resources do you feel "the best med school in the world" would have? Pathoma, Najeeb (neuroanatomy + physio), Costanzo's, Lippincott's etc?

Perhaps I'm not smart enough to self-learn then. I'm not sure how to reword what I said though, Law2Doc's comment better explains what I meant. I would say though that asking yourself "hm, I could have been so much more efficient by myself" is easier in hindsight as an MS2. I'm not going to generalize but most MS1's don't know how to med school until they "adapt"; the pressure needed for that change wouldn't happen unless you had a curriculum pushing you. I just think there's more that school offers than straight information and that it's a largely inferior mode of learning medicine than attending school.

 

[Goro]

The key thing is being able to apply what you know, not merely retain what you know.

Perhaps I'm not smart enough to self-learn then. I'm not sure how to reword what I said though, Law2Doc's comment better explains what I meant. I would say though that asking yourself "hm, I could have been so much more efficient by myself" is easier in hindsight as an MS2. I'm not going to generalize but most MS1's don't know how to med school until they "adapt"; the pressure needed for that change wouldn't happen unless you had a curriculum pushing you. I just think there's more that school offers than straight information and that it's a largely inferior mode of learning medicine than attending school.

 

[Stagg737]

a) robbins is a textbook. if you're reading a textbook in medical school, your school probably isn't pushing you hard enough
b) pathoma is incredibly well done but it's the bare minimum knowledge of pathology that you need. it's not even close to comprehensive. You might be a whiz at reciting a multiplication table but that's different from doing algebra

Can you elaborate on that first point? Are you saying Big Robbins isn't comprehensive enough or that just reading it isn't sufficient to learn path effectively?

 

[cbrons]

Also Cbrons, I know you like Najeeb for physio. What other resources do you feel "the best med school in the world" would have? Pathoma, Najeeb (neuroanatomy + physio), Costanzo's, Lippincott's etc?

Najeeb biochem is good too, he just might not have videos covering everything. But for physio and neuroanatomy definitely.

Anatomy would be 100% clinical not rubbish factoids with no relevance. Umichigan anatomy is good.

Histology would not be taught bc it is a worthless subject.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[lymphocyte]

Najeeb biochem is good too, he just might not have videos covering everything. But for physio and neuroanatomy definitely.

Anatomy would be 100% clinical not rubbish factoids with no relevance. Umichigan anatomy is good.

Histology would not be taught bc it is a worthless subject.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

Najeeb at 2x was my life for an entire year. His physiology matches perfectly with Costanzo. His pathophysiology matches perfectly with Robbins. Him plus reading those 2 books; supplementing with quality educational resources like the Pathophysiology of Heart Disease, Raymon's pharmacology lectures, the ICU Book, Rose's Clinical Physiology of Acid-Base and Electrolyte Disorders, Patten's Neurological Differential Diagnosis; being surrounded by smart and motivated people; and using a QBank throughout 2nd year served me really well for Step 1 and beyond. Lectures were generally worthless. My friends and I taught ourselves almost everything. Actively seeking out the best learning materials completely changed medical school for me.

 

[cbrons]

Najeeb at 2x was my life for an entire year. His physiology matches perfectly with Costanzo. His pathophysiology matches perfectly with Robbins. Him plus reading those 2 books; supplementing with quality educational resources like the Pathophysiology of Heart Disease, Raymon's pharmacology lectures, the ICU Book, Rose's Clinical Physiology of Acid-Base and Electrolyte Disorders, Patten's Neurological Differential Diagnosis; being surrounded by smart and motivated people; and using a QBank throughout 2nd year served me really well for Step 1 and beyond. Lectures were generally worthless. My friends and I taught ourselves almost everything. Actively seeking out the best learning materials completely changed medical school for me.

Yep, I forgot about Raymon, he would definitely be teaching pharmacology at the theoretical best med school in the world.

Yes, you really have to actively seek out resources outside of what the school provides if you want the optimal material. Vast majority of basic sciences professors will not be anywhere near as good as these resources. The students who rely solely on the 1800-style lectures given by their school typically are the memorizers - they just memorize factoids from the trashy powerpoint provided. These students typically do not have a good through understanding of the pathophysiology, because the lectures are taught in 50 minutes and do not have time to delve into that sort of thing. As a result, they go on to do OK on the in-class exams (not NBME based) but struggle more in the board exams, and then in the clinical years, really cannot synthesize enough to connect basic science to clinical knowledge. That has been my experience at least.

 

[Taddy Mason]

Yep, I forgot about Raymon, he would definitely be teaching pharmacology at the theoretical best med school in the world.

Yes, you really have to actively seek out resources outside of what the school provides if you want the optimal material. Vast majority of basic sciences professors will not be anywhere near as good as these resources. The students who rely solely on the 1800-style lectures given by their school typically are the memorizers - they just memorize factoids from the trashy powerpoint provided. These students typically do not have a good through understanding of the pathophysiology, because the lectures are taught in 50 minutes and do not have time to delve into that sort of thing. As a result, they go on to do OK on the in-class exams (not NBME based) but struggle more in the board exams, and then in the clinical years, really cannot synthesize enough to connect basic science to clinical knowledge. That has been my experience at least.

A post from @cbrons I stongly agree with - didn't think I would see the day...

 

[lymphocyte]

Yep, I forgot about Raymon, he would definitely be teaching pharmacology at the theoretical best med school in the world.

Yes, you really have to actively seek out resources outside of what the school provides if you want the optimal material. Vast majority of basic sciences professors will not be anywhere near as good as these resources. The students who rely solely on the 1800-style lectures given by their school typically are the memorizers - they just memorize factoids from the trashy powerpoint provided. These students typically do not have a good through understanding of the pathophysiology, because the lectures are taught in 50 minutes and do not have time to delve into that sort of thing. As a result, they go on to do OK on the in-class exams (not NBME based) but struggle more in the board exams, and then in the clinical years, really cannot synthesize enough to connect basic science to clinical knowledge. That has been my experience at least.

Completely agree.

Oh, and how could I forget Goljan? Man... that guy's voice still pops into my head from time to time...

Just yesterday I got pimped on myotonic dystrophy... autoooosomal DOMINANT.

 

[Hangry]

Completely agree.

Oh, and how could I forget Goljan? Man... that guy's voice still pops into my head from time to time...

Just yesterday I got pimped on myotonic dystrophy... autoooosomal DOMINANT.

His handgrip pearl has saved me on every myotonic dystrophy since step one studying. Miss listening to that guy.

 

[padfoot777]

To the OP, your entire medical education is self taught. This is not a generalized statement or an exaggeration. Best of luck and please do not waste your time pre-studying because it is an exercise in futility.