Med school prestige, MD vs DO, specialty arguments are completely toxic

[Lawpy]

I've seen research coordinators with just a bachelors walk around in long white coats. I assume it's because it makes patients more likely to consent to trials when the "informed" part comes from someone who looks like a doctor.

The midlevel thing seems like it could be a bit of a gray area. If someone is an independently practicing PCP in a state which allows that, what should they call themselves when they walk into the patient room? Practitioner [X] or Provider [Y] are going to confuse people every time. If you are the person doing the H&P, coming up with the plan and placing the orders for it, and the buck stops with you if you mess up... isn't Doctor the best (and really, only) way to communicate that to the patient?

Btw it's a good thing if midlevels are held completely liable if they mess up. It'd stop their aggressive campaigning the moment they can't punt over the lawsuits to supervising physicians.

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[Neopolymath]

You just bought yourself two minutes discussing credentialing with that patient. They're gonna want to know where the doc who will prescribe them their meds is at.

Too f'ing bad for them lol. So what??? Maybe they should have gone to medical school. This is not our problem and I'm shocked you would say this honestly. It's not even about some crusade about midlevels. It's just bizarre.

Edit: they should have to justify at every visit why their patient is receiving care from someone unqualified to administer it. Explain to the patient out loud your arrogance if you wanna play with the big boys.

 

[efle]

They should go by "Karen" or "Ms. Smith" or whatever. I don't call random people made up titles but maybe you call the jiffy lube guy "certified master Mercedes Benz mechanic Ted" because you get your oil changed there and happen to own a Mercedes. Let's not bull****.

Too f'ing bad for them lol. So what??? Maybe they should have gone to medical school.

Oh come on. Ms. Smith would get every patient confused. If you are performing the exact same role as a MD/DO PCP in your state, and you want a word to communicate your role to your patients, "doctor" is the only thing that'll work for laypeeps. Anything else is just throwing more headaches into your already overbooked clinic.

 

[libertyyne]

You just bought yourself two minutes discussing credentialing with that patient. They're gonna want to know where the doc who will prescribe them their meds is at.

Doesnt matter, its the right thing to do. NPs already spend more time with patients compared to physicians. Maybe their lobby should spend more time educating patients vs passing right to practice laws.

Edit: Lastly obfuscating this information is dishonest in terms of patient choice as well. How would a patient even know that their Doctor is not really a physician, rather an NP?

 

[Neopolymath]

Oh come on. Ms. Smith would get every patient confused. If you are performing the exact same role as a MD/DO PCP in your state, and you want a word to communicate your role to your patients, "doctor" is the only thing that'll work for laypeeps. Anything else is just throwing more headaches into your already overbooked clinic.

Once again, not our problem. I'm not the one trying to be something I'm not. The patient should know who is treating them and to say otherwise is be complicit with their intentional fraud. You think I like having to explain what a DO is every once in a while despite destroying school and boards so far and running circles around some local MD students during rotations? Hell no. It's tedious and incredibly stupid but I don't lie to people out of convenience.

 

[slowthai]

So put yourself in their shoes. You're the PCP and you want to introduce yourself. You are a fully independent practitioner. You're not willing to spend the first two minutes with every patient discussing the intricacies of your state's various PCP credentials.

What do you say? Hello I'm what?

"I'm non-physician non-doctor midlevel PA/NP John/Jane"

 

[efle]

Doesnt matter, its the right thing to do. NPs already spend more time with patients compared to physicians. Maybe their lobby should spend more time educating patients vs passing right to practice laws.

Eh. These kinds of laws are to prevent people from misrepresenting their role/function. If there's nothing to functionally distinguish an MD PCP vs DO PCP vs NP PCP in your state, seems like a big ask to slow down your workflow so that patients can get educated about acronyms.

Doctor as a job title, I guess is how I see it.

Once again, not our problem. I'm not the one trying to be something I'm not. The patient should know who is treating them and to say otherwise is be complicit with their intentional fraud. You think I like having to explain what a DO is every once in a while despite destroying school and boards so far and running circles around some local MD students during rotations? Hell, no it's tedious and incredibly stupid but I don't lie to people.

How would you feel about a law that further specified credentials, such that you had to start introducing yourself to all patients as Osteopath Dr Neo beginning Jan 1 2021? Nurses and PAs would have to use specific titles too, of course, to keep it all as informative as possible to the patient.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Eh. These kinds of laws are to prevent people from misrepresenting their role/function.

That's exactly what they are doing. Regardless of what you feel is right or wrong, the title "Dr." in a clinical setting is synonymous with physician. Even if I don't agree with the rigor of a degree, in an academic setting, if someone has obtained a doctorate, I will refer to them as Dr. So-and-so. But I don't refer to them as that in the clinical setting if patients could get confused.

When a NP or PA obtains a doctorate, I am happy for them and will say "congrats doctor" to their face, but I will not call them doctor in front of patients because it implies that they did medical school, residency, and are licensed to practice medicine independently as a physician, and they are not. I have no problem with them introducing themselves as a provider, but not a doctor.

And when doctor isn't synonymous with physician in a clinical setting, I will change my tune.

 

[libertyyne]

Eh. These kinds of laws are to prevent people from misrepresenting their role/function. If there's nothing to functionally distinguish an MD PCP vs DO PCP vs NP PCP in your state, seems like a big ask to slow down your workflow so that patients can get educated about acronyms.

Doctor as a job title, I guess is how I see it.


How would you feel about a law that further specified credentials, such that you had to start introducing yourself to all patients as Osteopath Dr Neo beginning Jan 1 2021? Nurses and PAs would have to use specific titles too, of course, to keep it all as informative as possible to the patient.

I have seen many NPs introduce themselves as NP and it be just fine. Saying that its ok for NPs to introduce themselves as Doctor due to possibly being asked a question about what an NP is one of the most bizzare defenses of this practice. What about NPs that are masters only? should they introduce themselves as doctor as well?

 

[efle]

That's exactly what they are doing. Regardless of what you feel is right or wrong, the title "Dr." in a clinical setting is synonymous with physician. Even if I don't agree with the rigor of a degree, in an academic setting, if someone has obtained a doctorate, I will refer to them as Dr. So-and-so. But I don't refer to them as that in the clinical setting if patients could get confused.

When a NP or PA obtains a doctorate, I am happy for them and will say "congrats doctor" to their face, but I will not call them doctor in front of patients because it implies that they did medical school, residency, and are licensed to practice medicine independently as a physician, and they are not. I have no problem with them introducing themselves as a provider, but not a doctor.

And when doctor isn't synonymous with physician in a clinical setting, I will change my tune.

It sounds to me like your issue is with states allowing NPs to be independent PCPs, rather than with laypersons always thinking of their PCP as their doctor.

I have seen many NPs introduce themselves as NP and it be just fine. Saying that its ok for NPs to introduce themselves as Doctor due to possibly being asked a question about what an NP is one of the most bizzare defenses of this practice. What about NPs that are masters only? should they introduce themselves as doctor as well?

My stance is pretty simple dude. If the state is treating you identically to a PCP doctor for all functional purposes, then I have zero issue with patients thinking of you as their doctor too.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

It sounds to me like your issue is with states allowing NPs to be independent PCPs, rather than with laypersons always thinking of their PCP as their doctor.

how did you gather that from what I said? I have absolutely no problem with states that allow NPs to practice independently. I actually support it in some cases as long as that NP also bears the entire legal responsibility with their practice. Good for them.

my problem is when people misrepresent their role to patients. if you are not a physician, you shouldn't portray that you are a physician. it is that simple. it isn't a NP issue. I would destroy a medical student if they introduced themselves as doctor to a patient. even if that medical student has a phd. In a clinical setting, they are not a physician. A doctorate of nursing practice doesn't create a physician. It creates a doctorate level nurse practitioner.

 

[libertyyne]

It sounds to me like your issue is with states allowing NPs to be independent PCPs, rather than with laypersons always thinking of their PCP as their doctor.


My stance is pretty simple dude. If the state is treating you identically to a PCP doctor for all functional purposes, then I have zero issue with patients thinking of you as their doctor too.

Are you ok with them referring to themselves as physician as well ?

 

[ciestar]

This reminds me of a thread on here where a med student had a phd and asked if it was okay to introduce themselves as “dr ms3” lolol

no.

 

[MedicineZ0Z]

So put yourself in their shoes. You're the PCP and you want to introduce yourself. You are a fully independent practitioner. You're not willing to spend the first two minutes with every patient discussing the intricacies of your state's various PCP credentials.

What do you say? Hello I'm what?

PAs should not be independent practitioners. And you introduce yourself as a PA.

Like wtf?

 

[ciestar]

So put yourself in their shoes. You're the PCP and you want to introduce yourself. You are a fully independent practitioner. You're not willing to spend the first two minutes with every patient discussing the intricacies of your state's various PCP credentials.

What do you say? Hello I'm what?

Im the PA/physician assistant Ciestar
Or im the NP Ciestar

it’s not complicated.

You can be a PCP and not be a physician.

 

[efle]

how did you gather that from what I said? I have absolutely no problem with states that allow NPs to practice independently. I actually support it in some cases as long as that NP also bears the entire legal responsibility with their practice. Good for them.

my problem is when people misrepresent their role to patients. if you are not a physician, you shouldn't portray that you are a physician. it is that simple. it isn't a NP issue. I would destroy a medical student if they introduced themselves as doctor to a patient. even if that medical student has a phd. In a clinical setting, they are not a physician. A doctorate of nursing practice doesn't not create a physician. It creates a doctorate level nurse practitioner.

I just don't buy that patients really care where or what you studied. The title to them just means you're a person empowered to prescribe treatments for their medical concerns. In an independent practice situation, that is accurate and appropriate. The fact that we are careful to identify people by their training level in an academic setting is completely different than what is in Average Joe's mind when he says "Hey, doc, so my legs have been swelling..."

Are you ok with them referring to themselves as physician as well ?

I can't say I've ever once heard anyone introduce themselves with Physician X or ever heard any patient refer to someone as Physician X? Can you give me an example of what was said?

PAs should not be independent practitioners. And you introduce yourself as a PA.

Like wtf?

A lot of states treat midlevels (NPs mostly I think) as indepedent practitioners. I think a few also allow independent PA after a few years of supervision to go solo, or to have a "collaborating" doctor they can consult but no required direct supervising MD/DO. Some also allow wacky **** like ND (naturopathics) to diagnose and prescribe controlled substances, and even do minor procedures.

That'd be an interesting question for y'all too - in a state where it's allowed, should we be OK with an ND calling themselves a doctor? I find that considerably more misleading than the NP scenario, but they do have the D in their acronym so maybe you'll all see it differently.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I just don't buy that patients really care where or what you studied. The title to them just means you're a person empowered to prescribe treatments for their medical concerns. In an independent practice situation, that is accurate and appropriate. The fact that we are careful to identify people by their training level in an academic setting is completely different than what is in Average Joe's mind when he says "Hey, doc, so my legs have been swelling..."

you are wrapping up two arguments into one and it is making both cloudy. I am not arguing about patient perception. that has nothing to do with me. I have heard a ton of patients say that their doctor is so-and-so and I know that they are a nurse practitioner. I don't correct them and I don't automatically jump to that NP being nefarious. people typically don't know. and I am not looking to change that. this isn't what I am arguing but that seems to be what you are.

and to address your other arguments, people say doctor because it is the same as saying physician, as I stated earlier. But I have heard a lot of people say some version of "I am John Doe, one of the emergency physicians."

and no I don't think NDs should call themselves doctors in any sense, but they especially shouldn't in a clinical setting. and if a hospital was asking for opinions on NDs coming inpatient and calling themselves doctors I would actively fight against it. but they do have "doctorates" so while I disagree, I would in an academic setting.

 

[efle]

you are wrapping up two arguments into one and it is making both cloudy. I am not arguing about patient perception. that has nothing to do with me. I have heard a ton of patients say that their doctor is so-and-so and I know that they are a nurse practitioner. I don't correct them and I don't automatically jump to that NP being nefarious. people typically don't know. and I am not looking to change that. this isn't what I am arguing but that seems to be what you are.

I think you're right, we were talking a bit past each other. I think we agree overall, it's just that I don't see any harm with "doc" going uncorrected in the scenario I gave. I'd definitely see a problem with an NP trying to make medical students or residents treat them like a supervising physician.

What do you think about an ND introducing themselves as doctor?

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I edited my post above. and I have seen a ton of people go as "doc" and it doesn't bother me. my son plays on a hockey team and their paramedic sideline provider gets called doc all the time. not about to correct everyone. that is fine by me.

 

[Neopolymath]

Eh. These kinds of laws are to prevent people from misrepresenting their role/function. If there's nothing to functionally distinguish an MD PCP vs DO PCP vs NP PCP in your state, seems like a big ask to slow down your workflow so that patients can get educated about acronyms.

Doctor as a job title, I guess is how I see it.


How would you feel about a law that further specified credentials, such that you had to start introducing yourself to all patients as Osteopath Dr Neo beginning Jan 1 2021? Nurses and PAs would have to use specific titles too, of course, to keep it all as informative as possible to the patient.

I would be ok with it. It's better for the patient and although I'm not a huge midlevel warrior like a lot of people on here, i'm all about the overzealous ones falling on their proverbial sword and us not helping them with liability. That comes with patients being aware that their hard-earned money is paying for substandard training and no supervision. I'm all about Nocters being labeled what they are even if it makes my life a little more tedious.

 

[Itisnottoolate]

I am a current NP and soon to be medical student. When I am seeing a pt I say hi my name is XYZ and I will be the nurse practitioner taking care of you. I do have my patients too so I am just XYZ to them. If I see one of the physician’s patients I will say I am XYZ and I am one of Dr. XYZ’s nurse practitioners. I am very fortunate I work with a group of doctors that truly appreciate the mid levels and understand that we are not there to think we know everything. We are there to fill the gap in health care. If we have questions we ask and they answer. We get the respect we deserve and are all partners working collaboratively for the best interest of the patient. I will be the first to admit we do not get near the training as physicians. This is why I chose to go to medical school. I want to know more and be a better provider for my patients.

 

[LutGholein]

Yes she has a doctorate in being an assistant but nonetheless, is illegal for herself to use the term "doctor" in a healthcare setting in my state.

I actually reported her to the board of medicine since that's who they're licensed by and they've now opened a review. I have a subpoena type thing to testify before them in a few weeks.

My point was how enabling my attending has been of this behavior. He even tried to levy professional action against me for standing up for physicians. It's sickening but I'm afraid it's probably not too abnormal for these older generation docs who are looking out for their bottom lines only.

Edit: it's actually a felony in my state so this lady may serve jail time. I don't feel bad though, her behavior is egregious and illegal and she ought to pay a price.

Keep fighting the good fight!
We need more future physicians fighting back against this kind of shenanigans.

 

[deleted941485]

"I'm non-physician non-doctor midlevel PA/NP John/Jane"

PA/NP? Thats not enough. What about the alphabet soup that is modern day MLPs. Some will list every degree and certification of their badge. Which makes it even more preposterous.

 

[deleted941485]

Still boggles my mind that we argue over prestige of med schools, have arguments where X specialty craps on the ED or radiology or whatever. Or still have MD vs DO debates. Then we turn around and create these "fellowships" for midlevels to "specialize" in Y field and then let them practice essentially autonomously. Even worse is having to do multiple fellowships as a physician and having these crazy standards for ourselves, but again letting a midlevel walk right in and do the same job.

It's not even the midlevels who are to blame. It's literally doctors for the most part. They train the midlevels and lead the programs. And they engage in the toxic parts of medicine. It gets even more silly when you have big name institutions that want an MD-PhD from a top school with 2 fellowships then have a PA do the same job in the same ward.

Anyway, only posting this thread cause I still see these silly topics come up frequently.

This is the insanity of modern US medical care.

 

[PTPuser]

Average Americans these days are well aware of NP / PA and have come across them in many setting. Introducing yourself as such should not and will not confuse patients that easily.

We live in a world where Karen and Chad has access to the world wide web, they will know if they want to.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Average Americans these days are well aware of NP / PA and have come across them in many setting. Introducing yourself as such should not and will not confuse patients that easily.

We live in a world where Karen and Chad has access to the world wide web, they will know if they want to.

Yeah it’s a huge stretch to say that a mid level acting as a PCP should introduce themselves as doctor so they won’t confuse patients. I’m not sure what kind of mental gymnastics one has to do to think a nurse practitioner or PA introducing herself as doctor is less confusing to patients, but I find it interesting that the person pushing that the most goes to a top 10 school.

 

[Mass Effect]

You would have some difficulty getting a physician job (with the exception of primary care, kinda) in a desirable area at the moment. What does that tell you exactly? Think about it.

Categorically untrue.

 

[Mass Effect]

Do you know for sure the PA had nothing above a master’s degree? They have PA doctorates now, and if you leveled that complaint against one that has the right to call herself “doctor” because she has a doctorate of some sort, that’s some major hot water to step in.

Doctor is not a protected title for physicians because there are lots of other kinds of doctors. I have some NP friends who are also doctors - they have doctor of nursing practice (DNP) degrees. Use of the term “physician” would be illegal but calling themselves doctors is not. I agree that this is completely misleading to lay people but it’s a perfectly legal term to use.

I wouldn't defend unethical and in many cases illegal practices.

Eh. These kinds of laws are to prevent people from misrepresenting their role/function. If there's nothing to functionally distinguish an MD PCP vs DO PCP vs NP PCP in your state, seems like a big ask to slow down your workflow so that patients can get educated about acronyms.

Doctor as a job title, I guess is how I see it

So as an M3 on my FM rotation where I took the history, did the physical exam, and came up with the diagnosis, would it be ok to call myself doctor? No, absolutely not. You want to be called doctor, go to med school.

 

[Dr. Rafiki]

You have taken that too far... Not a big fan of midlevels (especially NP), but to put someone in so much trouble because of something innocuous like that is over the top.

I would (rightfully) go to jail were I a flight attendant who introduced myself as "Pilot" in front of boarding customers, and I view this midlevel in no different light. I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't bend over and pretend that it's okay that our profession is being eroded when the time came. I thought I wouldn't have the courage until I was an attending but I guess I was wrong. Our state medical board representative told me that they receive around 50 complaints per year and take them very seriously. She was thrilled that I was willing to testify.

lmao, good for you i guess. I would never risk my grade over that but more power to ya

I'm a 4th year at a pass/fail institution (for 4th years) so I doubt there will be much meaningful retaliation. I suppose the attending could fail me but I seriously doubt my school would accept that as an unbiased review, especially given my clinical grades to date.

 

[PTPuser]

I would (rightfully) go to jail were I a flight attendant who introduced myself as "Pilot" in front of boarding customers, and I view this midlevel in no different light. I decided a long time ago that I wouldn't bend over and pretend that it's okay that our profession is being eroded when the time came. I thought I wouldn't have the courage until I was an attending but I guess I was wrong. Our state medical board representative told me that they receive around 50 complaints per year and take them very seriously. She was thrilled that I was willing to testify.

I'm a 4th year at a pass/fail institution (for 4th years) so I doubt there will be much meaningful retaliation. I suppose the attending could fail me but I seriously doubt my school would accept that as an unbiased review, especially given my clinical grades to date.

I will gladly contribute to your gofundme for a proper attorney on this matter if the school gives you ****.

 

[deleted314957]

I'm on a rotation where my attending introduced his PA as "doctor" and explained that she'll be doing most of the precepting. She introduces herself as a "doctor on the (service) team" to the patients right in front of the attending.

I brought up how inappropriate this was and actually is illegal in my state to mislead patients by calling yourself doctor as a non-physician and he filed a "professionalism" complaint against me to my school.

So this profession is f***ed and I can't wait to gain financial independence a go full time real estate investing cuz damn this life is a nightmare.

Hell, file one against HIM. He is clearly in the wrong. Sounds like a blowhard who will think very long and hard before he really decides to push this because he KNOWS he is wrong. If you allow yourself to be a doormat, people will step on you.Stand up for yourself!

 

[efle]

So as an M3 on my FM rotation where I took the history, did the physical exam, and came up with the diagnosis, would it be ok to call myself doctor? No, absolutely not. You want to be called doctor, go to med school.

I'm surprised your state allowed you to do that all unsupervised, place orders and bill for it as an M3. What med school was it that allowed that?

 

[Lawpy]

I'm on a rotation where my attending introduced his PA as "doctor" and explained that she'll be doing most of the precepting. She introduces herself as a "doctor on the (service) team" to the patients right in front of the attending.

I brought up how inappropriate this was and actually is illegal in my state to mislead patients by calling yourself doctor as a non-physician and he filed a "professionalism" complaint against me to my school.

So this profession is f***ed and I can't wait to gain financial independence a go full time real estate investing cuz damn this life is a nightmare.

Man, your attending is a corrupt and malignant sellout. It's doctors like him who actively ruin the profession. We need to stop this now.

 

[7331poas]

I'm surprised your state allowed you to do that all unsupervised, place orders and bill for it as an M3. What med school was it that allowed that?

At one of my sites the guy had MAs writing the diagnosis and did all the billing. He/she would give them credentials then have them electronically sign everything.

 

[efle]

At one of my sites the guy had MAs writing the diagnosis and did all the billing. He/she would give them credentials then have them electronically sign everything.

Not gonna lie, I've been in some clinics where I felt like the entire week was just variants of the same few patients getting the same few treatment plans. Peds derm laser clinic for example, where you spend all day long watching different kinds of birthmarks get blasted away.

I bet that guy will get away with this for a shocking amount of time before any malpractice karma catches up, if it ever does.

 

[efle]

Average Americans these days are well aware of NP / PA and have come across them in many setting. Introducing yourself as such should not and will not confuse patients that easily.

We live in a world where Karen and Chad has access to the world wide web, they will know if they want to.

Yeah it’s a huge stretch to say that a mid level acting as a PCP should introduce themselves as doctor so they won’t confuse patients. I’m not sure what kind of mental gymnastics one has to do to think a nurse practitioner or PA introducing herself as doctor is less confusing to patients, but I find it interesting that the person pushing that the most goes to a top 10 school.

Have you considered that we tend to see extremely different patient populations at our schools? The vast majority of people around here don't even know what a DO is relative to an MD, let alone various midlevel credentials.

Keep throwing that shade though, it's hot out here in July

 

[Mass Effect]

I'm surprised your state allowed you to do that all unsupervised, place orders and bill for it as an M3. What med school was it that allowed that?

Same ones that allow NPs to do all that.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Have you considered that we tend to see extremely different patient populations at our schools? The vast majority of people around here don't even know what a DO is relative to an MD, let alone various midlevel credentials.

Keep throwing that shade though, it's hot out here in July

Doesn't matter. You introduce yourself the right way, end of story.

I don't know how this is even up for debate.

 

[efle]

Same ones that allow NPs to do all that.

Wait are you joking or are you actually unaware that NPs can do that in many states and MS3s in zero states?

 

[efle]

Doesn't matter. You introduce yourself the right way, end of story.

I don't know how this is even up for debate.

Seems only some states agree with you

Thoughts on ND? Can I be "doctor" with an ND?

 

[Tyrese]

Talking about prestige in ANY area/field is cringe inducing and a futile attempt at an ego trip. Brings me back to high school days when classmates would argue on which HYPS school was better... lmaooooo

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Seems only some states agree with you

Thoughts on ND? Can I be "doctor" with an ND?

I'm not going for the legal view, I'm going for the "what's right" view.

And yes, NDs in their own office can be doctor. Same with ODs, PTs, PhDs, and so on.

It only matters if there's the possibility of confusion. If you go to the chiropractor, you know what he/she is. If you go to the cardiologist and see the NP, if they introduce themselves as doctor that's a source of confusion.

 

[efle]

I'm not going for the legal view, I'm going for the "what's right" view.

And yes, NDs in their own office can be doctor. Same with ODs, PTs, PhDs, and so on.

It only matters if there's the possibility of confusion. If you go to the chiropractor, you know what he/she is. If you go to the cardiologist and see the NP, if they introduce themselves as doctor that's a source of confusion.

I would have a much harder time respecting an ND using the title, compared to an NP! That's a very interesting take to me.

I totally agree a specialist situation like that would be confusing, because they're not going to be the one with their name at the bottom of the chart managing your horrible arrhythmia. It's when the state has an independent NP functioning identically to a MD or DO that I think the title is just as applicable.

 

[zero0]

Man, your attending is a corrupt and malignant sellout. It's doctors like him who actively ruin the profession. We need to stop this now.

Seriously. I feel like he needs to be reported to the medical board as well or at least dox and shame him. There needs to be some way to get pricks like him out of practice. I know firsthand what kind of shady preceptors LUCOM is willing to condone out of desperation for any warm body to accept students.

I would have a much harder time respecting an ND using the title, compared to an NP! That's a very interesting take to me.

I totally agree a specialist situation like that would be confusing, because they're not going to be the one with their name at the bottom of the chart managing your horrible arrhythmia. It's when the state has an independent NP functioning identically to a MD or DO that I think the title is just as applicable.

There is no circumstance in which a midlevel should be allowed to use the doctor title in a clinical setting. You're terribly uninformed about the dangers this poses to patients and our profession if you think that.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I would have a much harder time respecting an ND using the title, compared to an NP! That's a very interesting take to me.

I totally agree a specialist situation like that would be confusing, because they're not going to be the one with their name at the bottom of the chart managing your horrible arrhythmia. It's when the state has an independent NP functioning identically to a MD or DO that I think the title is just as applicable.

And if they advertise themselves as an NP, they can call themselves doctor all they want.

My office door says "VA Hopeful, MD".

If theirs says "Jenny McJennyson, DNP" and they don't work with any physicians then they can go by doctor too.

That's all that matters to me, making sure patients at least have the easy opportunity to know who's taking care of them.

 

[Mass Effect]

Wait are you joking or are you actually unaware that NPs can do that in many states and MS3s in zero states?

I'm quite aware what the laws are. It doesn't make an NP a doctor any more than it makes an MS 3 a doctor, regardless of level of autonomy.

 

[efle]

I'm quite aware what the laws are. It doesn't make an NP a doctor any more than it makes an MS 3 a doctor, regardless of level of autonomy.

Your view on NDs (in states where they can prescribe etc)? They learn pseudoscience and don't even need a residency at all. But they've got it in their name and they've got states that let them prescribe/order

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Your view on NDs (in states where they can prescribe etc)? They learn pseudoscience and don't even need a residency at all. But they've got it in their name and they've got states that let them prescribe/order

An ND has a doctorate, albeit not one worth the paper on which it’s printed. But despite what you or I might think about it, they do have a doctorate that is recognized by the states in which they are licensed to shill their lies. They can introduce themselves as Mr. Quack or Dr. Quack or King Quack in their own office; it doesn’t matter to me in the slightest. Scammers gonna scam.

What I don’t understand is your apparent advocacy of mid levels lying/obfuscating their credentials in the interest of the provider’s own convenience.

Patients are laypeople, yes, and sometimes laypeople are tricky to educate. Healthcare is complex, so I don’t blame them for being easily confused. But education is part of the job. Patients deserve accurate information, not information that is easiest for the provider to communicate or “ehh, close enough.” My mom doesn’t know the difference between an ophthalmologist and optometrist, a pharmacy tech and a pharmacist, a psychiatrist and a psychologist. I still expect each and every one to be clear about their credentials and their role in her healthcare.

My dad’s oncology PA has to remind him to call her “Katherine”, not “Dr. Smith” at nearly every visit. It takes her literally two seconds to do this. My dad goes “Oh, sorry Katherine, I always forget. Old habits die hard.” and everyone moves on with their day.

 

[efle]

An ND has a doctorate, albeit not one worth the paper on which it’s printed. But despite what you or I might think about it, they do have a doctorate that is recognized by the states in which they are licensed to shill their lies. They can introduce themselves as Mr. Quack or Dr. Quack or King Quack in their own office; it doesn’t matter to me in the slightest. Scammers gonna scam.

What I don’t understand is your apparent advocacy of mid levels lying/obfuscating their credentials in the interest of the provider’s own convenience.

Patients are laypeople, yes, and sometimes laypeople are tricky to educate. Healthcare is complex, so I don’t blame them for being easily confused. But education is part of the job. Patients deserve accurate information, not information that is easiest for the provider to communicate or “ehh, close enough”. My mom doesn’t know the difference between an ophthalmologist and optometrist, a pharmacy tech and a pharmacist, a psychiatrist and a psychologist. I still expect each and every one to be clear about their credentials and their role in her healthcare.

My dad’s oncology PA has to remind him to call her “Katherine”, not “Dr. Smith” at nearly every visit. It takes her literally two seconds to do this. My dad goes “Oh, sorry Katherine, I always forget. Old habits die hard.” and everyone moves on with their day.

You don't see anything weird about claiming "doctor" is a title reserved for those with legitimate medical schooling and a proper residency, but then awarding the title to naturopathic quacks?

And, do you really think anything about your dad's care would be different if that slip went uncorrected?

 

[PTPuser]

Have you considered that we tend to see extremely different patient populations at our schools? The vast majority of people around here don't even know what a DO is relative to an MD, let alone various midlevel credentials.

Keep throwing that shade though, it's hot out here in July

Your patients go out of their way to ask more questions as to what an NP / PA does? I worked at a safety net hospital that was pretty much the catching net for everyone and anyone.

A simple, "I'm Jenny Mcjenerson NP and I work directly with Dr. Bones in ortho. I see patients with him and we work together to take care of you." and then after that the response is usually..."oh, ok.."