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I remember a PA told me that PA school is med school in 2 years minus residency. After being in med school right now for 2+ months (still a premed :(), I have more respect for PA than I ever had... We covered biochem in depth (pathways, enzymes, and diseases etc..) in 1 month and Genetics in a little over a week... Many of my classmates could not not wait for that block to end since most of us were exhausted because we were on study/exams mode constantly... If the didactic portion of PA school is only a year, how can they cover so much materials (biochem, genetics, histology, physiology, gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, behavioral science, pharm, pathology, etc...) in such a short time frame? Even if they might water down some of these classes a little bit, I just can't imagine what PA students go thru....
 
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theseeker4

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I remember a PA told me that PA school is med school in 2 years minus residency. After being in med school right now for 2+ months (still a premed :(), I have more respect for PA than I ever had... We covered biochem in depth (pathways, enzymes, and diseases etc..) in 1 month and Genetics in a little over a week... Many of my classmates could not not wait for that block to end since most of us were exhausted because we were on study/exams mode constantly... If the didactic portion of PA school is only a year, how can they cover so much materials (biochem, genetics, histology, physiology, gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, behavioral science, pharm, pathology, etc...) in such a short time frame? Even if they might water down some of these classes a little bit, I just can't imagine what PA students go thru....
They don't. Talk to someone who did PA school and med school, and they will definitely NOT agree that PA school covers anywhere close to what is covered in med school. It is not just a little watered down, the two programs cover a vastly different amount of material.
 

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I remember a PA told me that PA school is med school in 2 years minus residency. After being in med school right now for 2+ months (still a premed :(), I have more respect for PA than I ever had... We covered biochem in depth (pathways, enzymes, and diseases etc..) in 1 month and Genetics in a little over a week... Many of my classmates could not not wait for that block to end since most of us were exhausted because we were on study/exams mode constantly... If the didactic portion of PA school is only a year, how can they cover so much materials (biochem, genetics, histology, physiology, gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, behavioral science, pharm, pathology, etc...) in such a short time frame? Even if they might water down some of these classes a little bit, I just can't imagine what PA students go thru....
Lmao bro, it's not the same. They get it all watered down. I've been a mentor of sorts for a PA student throughout her education (good friend of mine), and I know for a fact that they're not taught anywhere near the detail that we're taught. And that's perfectly fine. She's going to be an excellent PA doing PA duties.

There were PA students on one rotation with me actually. An attending pimped me on NSAIDs effect on Cr, and I went through all the bs that everyone who takes step 1 knows about PGs and the afferent arteriole, and the PA students thought I was a god or something. One of them even wanted to make out with me because of that, and we did.
 
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Lmao bro, it's not the same. They get it all watered down. I've been a mentor of sorts for a PA student throughout her education (good friend of mine), and I know for a fact that they're not taught anywhere near the detail that we're taught. And that's perfectly fine. She's going to be an excellent PA doing PA duties.

There were PA students on one rotation with me actually. An attending pimped me on NSAIDs effect on Cr, and I went through all the bs that everyone who takes step 1 knows about PGs and the afferent arteriole, and the PA students thought I was a god or something. One of them even wanted to make out with me because of that, and we did.
Same. The PA students routinely proposition me for sex after they see how extensive my knowledge is.
 

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There's a qbank the PAs use to study for exams, kinda like uworld-- they complain about how hard it is and how the questions are all ridiculous minutae that no one should be expected to know.

I went through it with another med student while tutoring the PA, and the hardest questions were like the ones on Uworld that 90+% of med students answer correctly.
 

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I remember a PA told me that PA school is med school in 2 years minus residency. After being in med school right now for 2+ months (still a premed :(), I have more respect for PA than I ever had... We covered biochem in depth (pathways, enzymes, and diseases etc..) in 1 month and Genetics in a little over a week... Many of my classmates could not not wait for that block to end since most of us were exhausted because we were on study/exams mode constantly... If the didactic portion of PA school is only a year, how can they cover so much materials (biochem, genetics, histology, physiology, gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, behavioral science, pharm, pathology, etc...) in such a short time frame? Even if they might water down some of these classes a little bit, I just can't imagine what PA students go thru....
Says the PA. Says the RN. Says the anyone else except people who actually gone to med school
 

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I remember a PA told me that PA school is med school in 2 years minus residency. After being in med school right now for 2+ months (still a premed :(), I have more respect for PA than I ever had... We covered biochem in depth (pathways, enzymes, and diseases etc..) in 1 month and Genetics in a little over a week... Many of my classmates could not not wait for that block to end since most of us were exhausted because we were on study/exams mode constantly... If the didactic portion of PA school is only a year, how can they cover so much materials (biochem, genetics, histology, physiology, gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, behavioral science, pharm, pathology, etc...) in such a short time frame? Even if they might water down some of these classes a little bit, I just can't imagine what PA students go thru....
Ask anyone who actually did both of them and you'll hear a different story
 
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primadonna22274

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Done both. Absolutely not the same.
Never covered histo, immuno, in-depth Biochem or microbio in PA school. No Neuroanatomy. That's what prereqs are for (note the prereqs for PA school are much more inclusive than for med school because they just don't have time to teach all that stuff). We did sail through clinical medicine in 8 mos (what took half of M1 and most of M2 to cover). Obviously the depth was very different between the PA and medical school curricula. PA school was challenging enough--and I will say having been through it made med school much, much easier for me in most respects. I still worked hard and studied but nowhere nearly as hard or as much as my peers. I was allowed to do MUCH more hands-on as a PA student than I was as a med student but I attribute that to training 15 yr earlier when the culture was more welcoming to students and less paranoid overall.
Your friend knows not of which he speaks.
 

emedpa

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I was allowed to do MUCH more hands-on as a PA student than I was as a med student but I attribute that to training 15 yr earlier when the culture was more welcoming to students and less paranoid overall.
.
This is very true. As a PA student I put in chest tubes, intubated, etc. I've been precepting an MS4 for his em elective the last few weeks and there is stuff that I am showing him for the first time that most PA students had under their belts after 1 rotation 20 yrs ago when I was in school. he had never done a digital block, sutured a flap, done a slit lamp exam, used an ophthalmic burr, removed an ingrown toenail, performed a pelvic exam on an actual pt(not a volunteer model), etc. Students have definitely been getting the shaft for a while now. many med students and PA students are telling me that their preceptors basically want them to shadow and do nothing but show up and talk through cases. what happened to "see one, do one"?
 

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It's really sad E. The old days of see one, do one, teach one have passed. More's the pity.
Yea but what can you really do about it? You guys do realize that this isn't purely just a liability issue - a lot of med schools do a GARBAGE job of preparing kids to do even basic exams/procedures. At my school they didn't even have a physician there to observe you doing basic heart + lung auscultation, the first time they ever saw you do it was either on the m2 clinical osce or sometime on your 3rd year rotations.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile
 

DermViser

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I remember a PA told me that PA school is med school in 2 years minus residency. After being in med school right now for 2+ months (still a premed :(), I have more respect for PA than I ever had... We covered biochem in depth (pathways, enzymes, and diseases etc..) in 1 month and Genetics in a little over a week... Many of my classmates could not not wait for that block to end since most of us were exhausted because we were on study/exams mode constantly... If the didactic portion of PA school is only a year, how can they cover so much materials (biochem, genetics, histology, physiology, gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, behavioral science, pharm, pathology, etc...) in such a short time frame? Even if they might water down some of these classes a little bit, I just can't imagine what PA students go thru....
The PA you talked with is an idiot. I truly hope you didn't actually BELIEVE it hook, line, and sinker, when he said it.
 

DermViser

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Coming from a PA, I think the basic sciences of medical school(physiology, biochem...) are so much deeper then those touched on in PA school. Clinical med is much more similar between the two pathways.
Half right. Basic sciences is MUCH deeper in medical school than in PA school. Clinical clerkships are different in terms of responsibilities and expectations for a PA student (lower) vs. a medical student (higher).
 

DermViser

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Done both. Absolutely not the same.
Never covered histo, immuno, in-depth Biochem or microbio in PA school. No Neuroanatomy. That's what prereqs are for (note the prereqs for PA school are much more inclusive than for med school because they just don't have time to teach all that stuff). We did sail through clinical medicine in 8 mos (what took half of M1 and most of M2 to cover). Obviously the depth was very different between the PA and medical school curricula. PA school was challenging enough--and I will say having been through it made med school much, much easier for me in most respects. I still worked hard and studied but nowhere nearly as hard or as much as my peers. I was allowed to do MUCH more hands-on as a PA student than I was as a med student but I attribute that to training 15 yr earlier when the culture was more welcoming to students and less paranoid overall.
A lot has changed in 15 years, unfortunately for the worse in terms of education for medical students. Medical schools have now switched to "shadowing" docs in M1/M2, maybe write some notes as an M3 (although still largely shadowing), and doing physical exam, delivering babies, etc. on simulators.

Meanwhile tuition continues to go up with no likelihood of lowering.
 

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Yeah, PA school is really not a condensed MD education. They get a barebones didactic education and paired down clinical rotations.
 

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Lmao bro, it's not the same. They get it all watered down. I've been a mentor of sorts for a PA student throughout her education (good friend of mine), and I know for a fact that they're not taught anywhere near the detail that we're taught. And that's perfectly fine. She's going to be an excellent PA doing PA duties.

There were PA students on one rotation with me actually. An attending pimped me on NSAIDs effect on Cr, and I went through all the bs that everyone who takes step 1 knows about PGs and the afferent arteriole, and the PA students thought I was a god or something. One of them even wanted to make out with me because of that, and we did.
 

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Can't tell if that expression is to the PA or to the medical student who actually believed the PA. I think it applies to both.
Neither. They're both beyond redemption. The expression is for the thread itself. Many years ago it used to be RN=MD, and now this ****. It's no skin off my back, but still annoying to read when your friends are out earning a salary and living it up.

Sent from my phone. No, I wont tell you which one.
 
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primadonna22274

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Wrong on the pared-down clinical rotations. PA students do the same core rotations as M3s. In many places the responsibilities are no different. I actually had much better rotations in PA school than I did in med school for the most part...but again, 15 years later.
 

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Wrong on the pared-down clinical rotations. PA students do the same core rotations as M3s. In many places the responsibilities are no different. I actually had much better rotations in PA school than I did in med school for the most part...but again, 15 years later.
That is definitely not true in many (most?) cases.

This was my post on the issue from a while back:

It's not a matter of M3's being "treated worse"

We have PA students regularly do their surgery rotation with us.

They don't present patients on rounds.

They get third preference for OR casess (M4s>M3s>PAs), often meaning they don't go to the OR at all.

The people responsible for their education (their preceptors) are our PAs, not our attendings. They get very little face time with our attendings. When they go to clinic, they shadow rather than see patients on their own.

They work probably 2/3 the hours that our students do. They don't work weekends. They don't take call. They don't have a designed didactic curriculum the way our students do (or if they do I never see it because it doesn't take place in our hospitals and it isn't taught by surgical faculty). They don't go to the surgical skills sim lab to do sessions on knot tying, central line, ultrasound, lap skills, chest tubes - which our M3s do. They don't do SP sessions - which our M3s do. And they only rotate with us for 4 weeks; our med students are with us for 10.

It is a completely different experience from the ground up.
 

DermViser

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Wrong on the pared-down clinical rotations. PA students do the same core rotations as M3s. In many places the responsibilities are no different. I actually had much better rotations in PA school than I did in med school for the most part...but again, 15 years later.
While the "responsibilities" (of which you have none - when it comes to anything of significance) may seem the same it actually isn't, also the difference is the clinical knowledge base you're expected to have as a medical student vs. that of a PA.
 
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The PA you talked with is an idiot. I truly hope you didn't actually BELIEVE it hook, line, and sinker, when he said it.
I was not a med student when he told me that, but after these 2+ months in med school being sleep deprived, I said to myself how could PA do all that in one year. I am glad that people who have done both confirm that is not the case... I even said to myself I am glad I did not go PA because there is no way I could have learned all these materials in one year where everything in the book is fair game... I guess that PA was misinformed then...
 

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It's really sad E. The old days of see one, do one, teach one have passed. More's the pity.
The adage of see one, do one, teach one is relegated to pretty simple tasks that most often get picked up in time anyways. Placing IV's, simple suturing, superficial abscess drainage, etc. And while these are relatively easy tasks, I'd still much rather be taught by the person who has performed them hundreds or thousands of times rather than the person who has done it once. When it comes to surgery, the adage flies out the window pretty quickly. Would you want someone doing your neck dissection or CABG or ACDF etc. who has just seen one? Of course not.

I've had this discussion with my attendings numerous times. The environment we live and work in is not that of 30 years ago, where med students were running around doing all sorts of procedures on patients, and residents were often in the operating room by themselves with no attending supervision whatsoever. While they will tell you that they gained MUCH more confidence and experience being in the OR alone, the honest ones will confess that tons more mistakes were made as a result, and patient care today (in the OR at least) is drastically better than it was 30 years ago.
 

DermViser

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I was not a med student when he told me that, but after these 2+ months in med school being sleep deprived, I said to myself how could PA do all that in one year. I am glad that people who have done both confirm that is not the case... I even said to myself I am glad I did not go PA because there is no way I could have learned all these materials in one year where everything in the book is fair game... I guess that PA was misinformed then...
A PA doesn't learn all that stuff in 1 year though. Their basic sciences are completely watered down bc the PA model is with physician supervision. That's a huge caveat.
 

DermViser

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The adage of see one, do one, teach one is relegated to pretty simple tasks that most often get picked up in time anyways. Placing IV's, simple suturing, superficial abscess drainage, etc. And while these are relatively easy tasks, I'd still much rather be taught by the person who has performed them hundreds or thousands of times rather than the person who has done it once. When it comes to surgery, the adage flies out the window pretty quickly. Would you want someone doing your neck dissection or CABG or ACDF etc. who has just seen one? Of course not.

I've had this discussion with my attendings numerous times. The environment we live and work in is not that of 30 years ago, where med students were running around doing all sorts of procedures on patients, and residents were often in the operating room by themselves with no attending supervision whatsoever. While they will tell you that they gained MUCH more confidence and experience being in the OR alone, the honest ones will confess that tons more mistakes were made as a result, and patient care today (in the OR at least) is drastically better than it was 30 years ago.
I don't think putting in a central line is a "simple" task. See one, do one, teach one, is an adage that doesn't just apply to simple tasks.
 

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It only makes sense for the "X-assistant" to have a thorough and parallel knowledge/understanding to X (those they are assisting), gained in a shorter amount of time.

Legal assistants have more accelerated education than their lawyer superiors. They get all the procedures, statutes, XYZ down in 1 year of community college. Law school should get on their level.

Lab assistants have more accelerated education than their PhD superiors. They got all the science down, not to mention stats 101, during their 4-year bachelor's degree. Graduate doctorate programs should get on their level.

Physician assistants learn everything the physician does in half the time. Medical schools need to get on PA school levels.

I don't know how you were duped, OP. It just sounds ridiculous to me regardless of field.
 
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It only makes sense for the "X-assistant" to have a thorough and parallel knowledge/understanding to X (those they are assisting), gained in a shorter amount of time.

Legal assistants have more accelerated education than their lawyer superiors. They get all the procedures, statutes, XYZ down in 1 year of community college. Law school should get on their level.

Lab assistants have more accelerated education than their PhD superiors. They got all the science down, not to mention stats 101, during their 4-year bachelor's degree. Graduate doctorate programs should get on their level.

Physician assistants learn everything the physician does in half the time. Medical schools need to get on PA school levels.

I don't know how you were duped, OP. It just sounds ridiculous to me regardless of field.
It seems like people like to do that... I had a classmate the other day that was saying that his MS1 friend at a DO school did biochem in 2 weeks and his take from that because it is a DO school they don't put too much emphasis on basic sciences... I had to :rolleyes:.
 

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It seems like people like to do that... I had a classmate the other day that was saying that his MS1 friend at a DO school did biochem in 2 weeks and his take from that because it is a DO school they don't put too much emphasis on basic sciences... I had to :rolleyes:.
This is not the same as those examples at all
 

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Wrong on the pared-down clinical rotations. PA students do the same core rotations as M3s. In many places the responsibilities are no different. I actually had much better rotations in PA school than I did in med school for the most part...but again, 15 years later.
Ya but doesn't having to study for shelf exams make the med school rotations more stressful?
 
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cbrons

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I've had this discussion with my attendings numerous times. The environment we live and work in is not that of 30 years ago, where med students were running around doing all sorts of procedures on patients, and residents were often in the operating room by themselves with no attending supervision whatsoever. While they will tell you that they gained MUCH more confidence and experience being in the OR alone, the honest ones will confess that tons more mistakes were made as a result, and patient care today (in the OR at least) is drastically better than it was 30 years ago.
I spoke with an OB/GYN (in her 30th year of practice), she is the mother of a classmate of mine. Anyway she said basically that the new OBs coming out of residency are very ill-prepared to practice independently and often require some "back-up" from the more experienced. She attributed this to the fact that there now work hour restrictions in place coupled with the fact that they don't let med students and many residents do much of anything on their own.

Anyway that was her 2c, I wonder what you guys think of that perspective.
 

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Iowa's PA program is described as their students complete it with med students, which sounds to me like they share the lecture hall. That's a unique one though, and I don't know if my interpretation is right (I don't know how they could fit in rotations that way either)
 
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I still don't get how you believed for a second that PA school was "med school, but in two years instead of four."
I was a premed i.e naive and stupid :cryi:
 
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link2swim06

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Ya but doesn't having to study for shelf exams make the med school rotations more stressful?
I'd guess our shelf exams cover more info than their tests. However, I think there is bigger separation between NP and PA than between PA and MD grad (pre-residency).
 

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Iowa's PA program is described as their students complete it with med students, which sounds to me like they share the lecture hall. That's a unique one though, and I don't know if my interpretation is right (I don't know how they could fit in rotations that way either)
We have had some blocks that grad students sit in on for every lecture/activity, but they don't take the same tests, and after talking to them the focus of their exam was very different. Not saying theirs was necessarily easier, just a very different focus than what our exam stressed. I think every professional/graduate level program is majority self driven and this demonstrates that to me; we can get the same lectures but what YOU'RE supposed to take from it is your responsibility, and memorizing the details is on your own time.
 

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In the same way getting a DNP is not anywhere close to going through med school and doing a res in FP, PA school is not the same as med school
 

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Psai

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I spoke with an OB/GYN (in her 30th year of practice), she is the mother of a classmate of mine. Anyway she said basically that the new OBs coming out of residency are very ill-prepared to practice independently and often require some "back-up" from the more experienced. She attributed this to the fact that there now work hour restrictions in place coupled with the fact that they don't let med students and many residents do much of anything on their own.

Anyway that was her 2c, I wonder what you guys think of that perspective.
Well yeah if you're going to have your chiefs sit there assisting you instead of supervising as they do the surgery they're obviously going to be bad
 

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I'd guess our shelf exams cover more info than their tests. However, I think there is bigger separation between NP and PA than between PA and MD grad (pre-residency).

So you're saying PAs are closer to MDs than they are to NPs (pre-residency)? I thought PAs and NPs were suppose to be pretty interchangeable in the hospital?
 

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Compare the curriculum and you will see it's pretty obvious that PA and MD/DO training are very similar (by design--PA school is by the medical model). NP training is far less similar. While it is true the roles for PAs and NPs look similar, NPs are nurses and trained by nurses to think and act like nurses. NPs are regulated by the nursing board in almost all states. PAs are trained by physicians and other PAs to think and act like PAs. PAs are regulated by the medical board in all states (although I think there may be a couple weird states where they are under some other allied health board heading...my PA history is a bit rusty and out of touch).
 

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Compare the curriculum and you will see it's pretty obvious that PA and MD/DO training are very similar (by design--PA school is by the medical model). NP training is far less similar. While it is true the roles for PAs and NPs look similar, NPs are nurses and trained by nurses to think and act like nurses. NPs are regulated by the nursing board in almost all states. PAs are trained by physicians and other PAs to think and act like PAs. PAs are regulated by the medical board in all states (although I think there may be a couple weird states where they are under some other allied health board heading...my PA history is a bit rusty and out of touch).
Interesting...j/c do you think the work ethic required to become a solid PA (top PA school into a competitive position like derm) is also sufficient to just pass (30th percentile ish) med school? Or is even just passing med school much harder?
 

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Interesting...j/c do you think the work ethic required to become a solid PA (top PA school into a competitive position like derm) is also sufficient to just pass (30th percentile ish) med school? Or is even just passing med school much harder?
This is a dumb question
 

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So you're saying PAs are closer to MDs than they are to NPs (pre-residency)? I thought PAs and NPs were suppose to be pretty interchangeable in the hospital?
NPs have much easier program compared to PAs/MDs. The hours aren't even close. Due to their degrees yes their jobs are interchangeable.

~50% of NPs failed step 3 when they were given a try.

I bet a lot more PAs would be able to pass step 3.