Med School vs. PA

[mimi25]

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Hi,
So, I'm stuck! I've always wanted to go to med school and become a doctor, but my credentials aren't that great and the process is such a pain in the butt! My other option is PA school, and even though it sounds cool to be like a doctor with less responsibility, I still can't decide which is better (in the long run). It's just been such a frustrating process!!! 🙁

And almost everyone is telling me not to use PA school as a stepping stone for med school... So, what do I do? If I keep trying for med school...it'll take years before I get in anywhere...and if I do the PA, it sounds like I'm stuck in it. But what if I'm not satisfied???

 

[umsami]

Not to depress you, but PA programs can be extremely competitive to get into. There's no guarantee that just because your credentials may or may not be "good enough" for med school that you'll get into a PA program. A lot of applicants to PA programs are RNs, EMTs, etc. Tons of experience!

 

[Febrifuge]

I'm in PA school right now.

There were about 1000 applicants for our class; 55 or so were accepted. There are some med schools that accept better than 5% of applicants.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2006/2006school.htm

Our Anatomy class meets five times a week, and we have lab five times a week. Our TAs include med students, who back up what the course director says: we get 18 weeks worth of Anatomy in 10 weeks. Our lecturers regularly do three class sessions' worth of lectures in two hours.

Finally, I don't want to be too blunt, but there's a reason people are telling you not to use PA school as a stepping stone. It's a lousy stepping stone. The pre-reqs are not exactly the same, so there's time wasted there, if you do PA and then MD. There's the expense. Then, there's the expense of lost wages because instead of earning $65k or $90k or whatever as a PA, you'd be toiling away for four years in med school. So you can add $300k in opportunity cost to your med school tuition. And that doesn't count residency.

It's also a lousy substitute, if what you want is to be an MD or a DO. We're here because we want to be PAs. If you decide on PA because what you really want is to be an MD, but you don't think it's attainable, you and the PA experience are not going to get along very well.

Keep trying for med school. It's better to take longer and fight harder to get in (although that's not a sure thing by any means) in order to do what you really want. I know there's no way I could put up with this pace and volume of stuff, if it wasn't what I wanted.

 

[mimi25]

Hi, thank you for the quick responses! A little background info: I graduated with a BS degree in Molecular Biology (GPA 3.2). Didn't do so hot on the MCAT. Applied once to med schools, and didn't get in. I've spent the last three years after college working in a refugee clinic as a community worker/interpreter and currently as an ER TECH (EMT) in a busy ER.

I know how competitive PA schools are. I know a lot about the profession and am very much attracted to it. I actually got offered a few interviews already for next year's matriculation. Its just a lot of PAs I work with tell me to keep trying for med school, which is really discouraging to hear when I'm applying to PA school!

I just feel this is a big decision to make in my life right now and I'm stuck trying to make a choice. My heart says: doctor. My head says: PA. Which do I listen to???

 

[johankriek]

Hi, thank you for the quick responses! A little background info: I graduated with a BS degree in Molecular Biology (GPA 3.2). Didn't do so hot on the MCAT. Applied once to med schools, and didn't get in. I've spent the last three years after college working in a refugee clinic as a community worker/interpreter and currently as an ER TECH (EMT) in a busy ER.

I know how competitive PA schools are. I know a lot about the profession and am very much attracted to it. I actually got offered a few interviews already for next year's matriculation. Its just a lot of PAs I work with tell me to keep trying for med school, which is really discouraging to hear when I'm applying to PA school!

I just feel this is a big decision to make in my life right now and I'm stuck trying to make a choice. My heart says: doctor. My head says: PA. Which do I listen to???

apply to osteopathic school

they do exact same thing as allopathic docs..

 

[Febrifuge]

Assuming you get into PA school, the trouble is with what happens if your heart is still saying MD then. You would be in a pretty bad spot. Not only would your own performance likely suffer, you'd be sitting in a chair that some other PA school applicant would have loved to be in. Bad karma, y'know?

Listen to your heart.

(Am I the only one old enough to have a stupid Roxette song in my head right now?)

 

[mimi25]

Hahahaha... thanks Febrifuge... (now you got that song stuck in my head). I'm just afraid I want to go to med school for the wrong reasons...such as the prestige. I want to obviously help people and be a leader in that. But i'd rather chose a profession where i am able to spend more time with the patient.

why did you guys chose PA/NP over med school or nursing???

johankriek--I didn't get into DO schools either...

 

[johankriek]

Hahahaha... thanks Febrifuge... (now you got that song stuck in my head). I'm just afraid I want to go to med school for the wrong reasons...such as the prestige. I want to obviously help people and be a leader in that. But i'd rather chose a profession where i am able to spend more time with the patient.

why did you guys chose PA/NP over med school or nursing???

johankriek--I didn't get into DO schools either...

What? why not? med schools are not that hard to get into nowadays and do schools should not be hard at all... what areyou doing wrong man? do you have like a 2.1 gpa.. go to england... or carribean..

 

[Noeljan]

What? why not? med schools are not that hard to get into nowadays and do schools should not be hard at all... what areyou doing wrong man? do you have like a 2.1 gpa.. go to england... or carribean..

umm I hope you are joking? Medical school is still very difficult to get into, and GPA and MCAT scores have only gone up.

 

[core0]

Hahahaha... thanks Febrifuge... (now you got that song stuck in my head). I'm just afraid I want to go to med school for the wrong reasons...such as the prestige. I want to obviously help people and be a leader in that. But i'd rather chose a profession where i am able to spend more time with the patient.

why did you guys chose PA/NP over med school or nursing???

johankriek--I didn't get into DO schools either...

You make a decision as a PA vs. Med school. Part of it is lateral mobility. I worked with a few Docs that were unhappy with the particular medicine they practiced but couldn't change because of the lifestyle. PA school fitted my particular personality better - work at something, get good at it, get bored with it, move on. I am on my third specialty.

Part of it is the option of knowing the buck stops somewhere else. In my practice I can defer to the physician if it is outside my comfort zone. I like that, some people won't.

The bad part is that (with very few exceptions) will never own the practice or be more than an employee. Once again, I have no desire to run a business. I make good money (not as much as the physicians) for a better lifestyle and the ability to move on if it bores me. Prestige is not really where I am at. My patients recognize hard work and compassion and thats more than good enough for me at the end of the day.

I did look at nursing (with some intention of going NNP). However, one nursing theory class cured me of any desire to go into that field.

Also given how competetive PA school is these days not getting into any med school is not a good predictor for getting into PA school.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[mimi25]

Thanks core0, you put things into perspective for me. I didn't realize I had the opportunity to expand as a PA.

Quick question: What kind of questions does the admissions committee ask during the formal interview?

 

[deleted6669]

The bad part is that (with very few exceptions) will never own the practice or be more than an employee. Once again, I have no desire to run a business. I make good money (not as much as the physicians) for a better lifestyle and the ability to move on if it bores me. Prestige is not really where I am at. My patients recognize hard work and compassion and thats more than good enough for me at the end of the day.

David Carpenter, PA-C

just to be clear for those who don't know- it is possible for pa's in many states to own their own practice(and hire a doc to review charts) or to be partners in the practice. it is not common as most pa's are not interested in that aspect of medicine but it is available to those who are.
article from this months advance for pa's on pa clinic ownership:
http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/common/Editorial/Editorial.aspx?CC=92613

 

[Buckeye4life]

Medical school is still very difficult to get into, and GPA and MCAT scores have only gone up.

I would definitely agree with that statement.

 

[Febrifuge]

PA school fitted my particular personality better - work at something, get good at it, get bored with it, move on...

I have no desire to run a business. I make good money (not as much as the physicians) for a better lifestyle and the ability to move on if it bores me. Prestige is not really where I am at. My patients recognize hard work and compassion and thats more than good enough for me at the end of the day.

Fits me to a T, I tell ya! I'll just add a "ditto" to Mr. Carpenter's note, because this is why I decided to go the PA route.

I know a bunch of residents and MDs, and although I want to do pretty much the same job, the parts of their job I don't want are the same things I won't have to do as a PA. Win-win.

Shadow both, for more than just a couple of shifts. Get to know people, and talk to them about the pros and cons. Walk a mile in their shoes. The differences (and the similarities) should stand out fairly well then.

 

[core0]

just to be clear for those who don't know- it is possible for pa's in many states to own their own practice(and hire a doc to review charts) or to be partners in the practice. it is not common as most pa's are not interested in that aspect of medicine but it is available to those who are.
article from this months advance for pa's on pa clinic ownership:
http://physician-assistant.advanceweb.com/common/Editorial/Editorial.aspx?CC=92613

Interestingly enough the number of PAs that own their own practice is almost identical to the number of NPs that own their own practice (around 2%). The vast majority of PAs and NPs work for hospitals or medical practices. This is unlikely to change.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[core0]

Thanks core0, you put things into perspective for me. I didn't realize I had the opportunity to expand as a PA.

Quick question: What kind of questions does the admissions committee ask during the formal interview?

Every interview committee is different. At the very least they expect you to know what a PA does, what the job entails and how they work in the medical system. Occasionally you get the what kind of tree question also.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[Shinken]

What? why not? med schools are not that hard to get into nowadays and do schools should not be hard at all... what areyou doing wrong man? do you have like a 2.1 gpa.. go to england... or carribean..

Wow...

 

[Empi]

I can't decide, either. I understand the positives and negatives in both and my grades are good (3.7 in both overall and in science,) I haven't taken my MCAT's but I don't have trouble taking tests. I am volunteering in our hospital, so I'm good to go, I just need to discover which path is for me.

 

[deleted6669]

I can't decide, either. I understand the positives and negatives in both and my grades are good (3.7 in both overall and in sciene,) I haven't taken my MCAT's but I don't have trouble taking tests. I am volunteering in our hospital, so I'm good to go, I just need to discover which path is for me.

Volunteering is only accepted as experience at a limited # of programs so check around before you count on this to get you in. many programs require professional paid experience.

 

[mimi25]

I can't decide, either. I understand the positives and negatives in both and my grades are good (3.7 in both overall and in sciene,) I haven't taken my MCAT's but I don't have trouble taking tests. I am volunteering in our hospital, so I'm good to go, I just need to discover which path is for me.

Most PA programs want at least 1000 hours of clinical experience such as: RN, EMT, RT, etc. Volunteering is expected, doesn't give you brownie points...for either med or pa school. And the pre-reqs are a lot different....so do your research!!! I had to go back to school to do PA pre-reqs b/c my pre-med major didn't require me to take those classes for med school.

 

[Empi]

Most PA programs want at least 1000 hours of clinical experience such as: RN, EMT, RT, etc. Volunteering is expected, doesn't give you brownie points...for either med or pa school. And the pre-reqs are a lot different....so do your research!!! I had to go back to school to do PA pre-reqs b/c my pre-med major didn't require me to take those classes for med school.

I'm in the Philly area and there is a wealth of both medical and PA schools in this region. Generally, the PA schools allow volunteer and/or paid work, the key seems to be patient interaction.

I have also noted the prerequisites for both and, as noted, they *are* different. This has made my course selection especially challenging, but I intend to satisfy the requirements of both along with the courses that are highly recommended.

Also, I am an extremely non-traditional student so some of my real-life experiences will help me as well.

Editing to note; I went and checked the patient-care experience requirements listed in the four PA schools in the region (Philadelphia University, Arcadia, Drexel, and PCOM,) all four allow either paid or volunteer (or both.) Also, the minimum number of hours seems to have been reduced. Three of the four schools require a minimum of 200 hours and Drexel requires 500 hours.

 

[rpkall]

Hi there;

I was in similar situation--I wound up at PA school and as it turned out, I was really interested in the science behind the clinical medicine they were teaching in the masters program. But, as is usually the case with shorter training programs, there's really not enough time to go into any depth about the "why" of the treatments for various diseases, or anything detailed about pathophysiology of disease.

Even though PA school is an excellent choice if you want a structured program in clinical medicine in the medical model (as opposed to the NP "nursing model"), it still leaves a bit to be desired if you have a genuine intellectual curiosity about basic medical sciences, or if you yearn for a deeper understanding of various fields of medicine and what's really out there.

I wound up quitting PA school and starting an MD program; I'm in third year now and I'm glad I made the choice I did.

However, I'm very much aware that PA school is the right choice for many people (already have a family?, second career?, don't want to go to school for 8 years?, etc, etc.). I think it comes down to what's right for you in your particular life situation.

Good luck to ya. 🙂

 

[Empi]

I already have a family. My youngest is eight, she'll be ten when I graduate from college. If I go to PA school, I'll need to find child care for her that summer, if I go to med school, I'll have the summers off the first two years and I won't need to worry about what to do with her until she's 12. I won't be doing a residency until she's 14 (at which time two things will happen, first, she won't want to be seen in public with me at that age and, second, my mother will be retiring and she has volunteered to help out after she retires.)

 

[rpkall]

Med school is actually doable with a family if you're motivated, organized, and smart when it comes to stress relief. Some parts of 3rd year, intern year, and residency can be very hellish though. Most programs expect interns/junior residents to spend an ungodly amount of time in the hospital, often at the expense of being available to your family. Even though you have income during residency, it's small in comparison to an attending's salary and after taxes doesn't amount to much.

PA is only 2.5 years straight through--and then when you're out you're making 60-80k to start (maybe more if you pursue surgery or specialty practice).

Obviously, earning potential will be higher if you choose MD/DO, but the trade-off is 8+ years of financial instability (at least on your end of the contribution to the family monies) and time lost with your spouse/kids during intern year/residency (and maybe even when you're an attending later on).

 

[mimi25]

For all you practicing PAs out there... Does it matter what school one graduates from when it comes to getting a job? And does it make any difference to get a masters degree in PA studies, as opposed to a certificate?

 

[core0]

For all you practicing PAs out there... Does it matter what school one graduates from when it comes to getting a job? And does it make any difference to get a masters degree in PA studies, as opposed to a certificate?

Not really. If you want surgery UAB or Cornell might give you a little edge. Masters vs. anything else doesn't seem to matter unless it is at a few Government or University settings. Mostly it is about the PA-C. Anectdotally if you have more pre PA experience it is easier to get the first job but after a couple years it all evens out.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[deleted6669]

Not really. If you want surgery UAB or Cornell might give you a little edge. Masters vs. anything else doesn't seem to matter unless it is at a few Government or University settings. Mostly it is about the PA-C. Anectdotally if you have more pre PA experience it is easier to get the first job but after a couple years it all evens out.

David Carpenter, PA-C

depends on the state.many now require a bs or ms to become licensed.
some schools are better known and may get you an interview based on the wow factor vs a candidate from a no name school.

 

[core0]

depends on the state.many now require a bs or ms to become licensed.
some schools are better known and may get you an interview based on the wow factor vs a candidate from a no name school.

True Ohio requires a Masters for prescriptive authority. Mississippi requires a Masters to practice. Arkansas and Conneticut require a Bachelors. West Virginia requires a Masters or Bachelors.

If you wish to practice in one of those states a Masters would be helpful. Also because of the way the VA pay system works a Masters will get more pay. Outside of those examples it rarely matters.

David Carpenter, PA-C

 

[PHealthMan]

you sound like an asset to medicine

 

[mimi25]

Hey! I got into a Masters in PA school back east! I have another interview here in CA next week. But so exciting!

 

[mimi25]

Does anyone know anything about Touro University's PA program in Vallejo, CA? I have an interview there next week. I've already checked their website, so anything not on there would be great!

 

[pa2dr]

I am currently in my fourth year practicing as a Physician Assistant. In this short about of time, I've done IM, OB/GYN, Peds, Geriatrics, HIV/AIDS, and psychiatry. I've always wanted to go to medical school, but I had to better my grades in order to get in PA school, where I was able to keep at least a 3.0 GPA. I've already taken the step to buy the huge Kaplan MCAT review book and I'm starting the complicated process of getting through physics...I remember how difficult it was!!

Being a PA is great if that is all you want. You just have to be acceptable to the fact that you are not a doctor, and there will be times you will be looked down upon. Orders that you have written will, on occasion, be changed. Your ideas might not be what the doctor is thinking...so in that, you are 2nd in command. Just about all patients will say either in a clinic or hospital setting: Where is the doctor? When do I get to see the doctor? I understand I'm not the physician, but those make me flench every time someone asks one. It is difficult to get respect. I'm at the point where I want to do more, and I know I can. I also know it is going to be a LONG journey, but I've wanted it for years.

 

[guetzow]

I am currently in my fourth year practicing as a Physician Assistant. In this short about of time, I've done IM, OB/GYN, Peds, Geriatrics, HIV/AIDS, and psychiatry. I've always wanted to go to medical school, but I had to better my grades in order to get in PA school, where I was able to keep at least a 3.0 GPA. I've already taken the step to buy the huge Kaplan MCAT review book and I'm starting the complicated process of getting through physics...I remember how difficult it was!!

Being a PA is great if that is all you want. You just have to be acceptable to the fact that you are not a doctor, and there will be times you will be looked down upon. Orders that you have written will, on occasion, be changed. Your ideas might not be what the doctor is thinking...so in that, you are 2nd in command. Just about all patients will say either in a clinic or hospital setting: Where is the doctor? When do I get to see the doctor? I understand I'm not the physician, but those make me flench every time someone asks one. It is difficult to get respect. I'm at the point where I want to do more, and I know I can. I also know it is going to be a LONG journey, but I've wanted it for years.

I have no illusions of being a doctor, AND....there is more to life than practicing medicine. There are also lots of ways to make money😀 In any profession, you have to ask yourself why it is you are doing what you're doing. For me, PA is worth my time. I.e.- It's a challenge, it's interesting, and the compensation is reasonable; Nothing else. I don't need people kissing my bum, or want to be a celebrity. If you're getting into medicine for that, you've got problems and you'll never be happy*.













*This delusion is especially true when you consider that administrators, third party payers, and the goverment pretty much think of medical providers as day laborers. The chic of practicing medicine has long left the building.

 

[LAZYGUY]

*This delusion is especially true when you consider that administrators, third party payers, and the goverment pretty much think of medical providers as day laborers. The chic of practicing medicine has long left the building.

That is rationalization my friend. Medicine continues to be and will always be, in my opinion, a noble profession. Whether anyone sees me as their "slave" is something else, they've got issues. That however does not change reality. 🙂

 

[devildoc2]

Krasuski added that with the involvement of PAs, cardiologists are freed up to interpret data generated by the catheterization, plan the patient's follow-up care and even consult with referring physicians while the case is still going on.

This doesnt make sense to me. Since when do cardiologists prefer deferring cath cases so they can talk on the phone to referring PMDs insterad. That makes absolutely zero sense to me and 100 out of 100 cardiologists that I know would ALWAYS prefer to be doing more cases rather than stay on the phone or plan follow-up care.

Seriously, wtf. "Plan follow up care?" Thats resident scutwork, not something a cardiologist would want to do. Thats similar to a surgeon stating that he would rather let somebody else do his whipple so he could spend time on the phone scheduling patient follow-ups.

I think this is a money grab by cardiologists pure and simple. They arent "closely supervising" the PA because if they were they wouldnt be able to bill for multiple cases at the same time. What they are doing is running multiple caths at the same time and "supervising" the PA from another room. It doubles their billable rates. I can tell you one thing, they are NOT talking to PMDs on the phone while the PA is doing the cath.

So I question the motives of the author of that study. If a cardiologist is having his PA do the cath while he's on the phone "planning follow-up" or "talking to referring PMDs" then he can only bill for that one case. On the other hand, if he has his PA do one cardiac cath while he's in the lab next door doing another interventional procedure, it effectively doubles his billing rates.

So lets be clear here. The author of that study is lying. The reason he's using PAs is NOT because he wants to do the "follow-up" crap its because he wants to run 2 rooms at the same time and there's not enough cards fellows to do that.

 

[guetzow]

That is rationalization my friend. Medicine continues to be and will always be, in my opinion, a noble profession. Whether anyone sees me as their "slave" is something else, they've got issues. That however does not change reality. 🙂

Very noble. I totally agree. I posted nothing about nobility or slavery. I simply didn't list it as a reason for practicing because I detest pissing contests about righteousness. I'm just a normal guy. Wanna be righteous? Be a rock star or join the clergy.

 

[LAZYGUY]

Very noble. I totally agree. I posted nothing about nobility or slavery. I simply didn't list it as a reason for practicing because I detest pissing contests about righteousness. I'm just a normal guy. Wanna be righteous? Be a rock star or join the clergy.

Hey, I'm with you here. I don't think "doctors" are the only noble ones. Medicine in general, nurses, PAs, everyone. I think we are lucky. The way we immediately connect to each other; our experiences are so alike. Our frustration, our feelings of being overwhelmed and ultimately out experience on how we made a difference.


Sure, I too, am like the next guy who gets sick of all of this crap (red tape here, policies there). But when I think on how complete strangers, who I've never known, share their most intimate issues and put their trust in me, because of the profession that I represent...well, how can it be anything other than a respected profession. It has its ups and downs, but on the whole, I consider myself lucky.