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Hi everyone, does anyone know where to find the schools with the least amount of burnout and dissatisfaction among students??
Med schools with the least burnout among students
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In the Caribbean.
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Anything with P/F probably.
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The ones with the lowest step scores and laziest students.
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Yale.
Stanford back when it donned the old version of the P/F system [for all 4 years].
Stanford back when it donned the old version of the P/F system [for all 4 years].
mmmcdowe
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Being satisified and not burned out =/= lazy.
But I agree, P/F is better for a professional school. The goal is to learn as much as you can, and not care about grades, fishing for points, doing better than others, etc. Yes, there is internal rankings, but unless you have a sick obsession with being the top of your class, it shouldn't matter greatly. As long as you learn what you need to learn, do well on boards, and do good on rotations.
But I agree, P/F is better for a professional school. The goal is to learn as much as you can, and not care about grades, fishing for points, doing better than others, etc. Yes, there is internal rankings, but unless you have a sick obsession with being the top of your class, it shouldn't matter greatly. As long as you learn what you need to learn, do well on boards, and do good on rotations.
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I don't think there's any such list. All you can do is consider some subjective factors that might influence your own happiness. There might be a school where most students are "happy," but maybe they are all interested in becoming surgeons and you want to do primary care. Thus it is important to consider your own preferences for each factor that might make a school a happier place. Here are a few major factors I can think of:
1. Pass/Fail grading systems (as opposed to ABCDF or Honors/High Pass/Pass/Low Pass/Fail) supposedly encourage camaraderie and decrease "cutthroat" competition. And there is no guilt associated with failing to achieve honors or high pass...you just have to pass! That said, some people like the detailed feedback you get from an A/B/C/D/F or H/HP/P/LP/F system.
2. School location: will you be happier in a massive metropolitan setting, a rural one, or somewhere in between?
3. The school's focus: no matter where the school is located or what grading system it uses, you're going to be unhappy if its focus is something you are not interested in. Don't apply to a really research/specialty focused school with the intent of doing primary care, because you are likely to be unhappy there.
4. Amount of time spent in class: Some people like to be busy and like spending time in class. Some prefer to learn independently on their own time. There are schools where you will be in class every day from 8am to 5pm (or later) and there are schools where you are typically finished around noon each day, or even where you have an extra day off. Choose a school that suits your preference.
5. Lecture-based versus problem-based learning: Some people prefer to learn actively in small peer groups while others prefer lecture format. Some schools are based around lecture-based learning, some that are based around small group, problem-based learning, and many schools with a hybrid approach.
1. Pass/Fail grading systems (as opposed to ABCDF or Honors/High Pass/Pass/Low Pass/Fail) supposedly encourage camaraderie and decrease "cutthroat" competition. And there is no guilt associated with failing to achieve honors or high pass...you just have to pass! That said, some people like the detailed feedback you get from an A/B/C/D/F or H/HP/P/LP/F system.
2. School location: will you be happier in a massive metropolitan setting, a rural one, or somewhere in between?
3. The school's focus: no matter where the school is located or what grading system it uses, you're going to be unhappy if its focus is something you are not interested in. Don't apply to a really research/specialty focused school with the intent of doing primary care, because you are likely to be unhappy there.
4. Amount of time spent in class: Some people like to be busy and like spending time in class. Some prefer to learn independently on their own time. There are schools where you will be in class every day from 8am to 5pm (or later) and there are schools where you are typically finished around noon each day, or even where you have an extra day off. Choose a school that suits your preference.
5. Lecture-based versus problem-based learning: Some people prefer to learn actively in small peer groups while others prefer lecture format. Some schools are based around lecture-based learning, some that are based around small group, problem-based learning, and many schools with a hybrid approach.
I'm sure it matters, but this is incredibly overrated on this forum.
Even in P/F schools, class rank matters for AOA and competitive residency so you get people gunning everywhere.
Most people, even in a H/HP/P/F system, are collaborative and friendly. This system will probably only really bother you if you let it.
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Making big assumptions today eh?
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I don't know.....at almost every school I went to(that was p/f) the medical students said something along the lines of: "We think you should come to our school but if you don't just ABSOLUTELY make sure you go to a p/f school." It was almost ridiculous how many times I heard this same line.
So everyone already at a P/F school said you should go to a P/F school? Shocking.
I go to a non-P/F school. Is there extra pressure? Maybe. Certainly I try to do well, and it's a good feeling if you get above a pass. I think it gives me a bit more motivation to do well, and I think that will pay off in the long run. The thing is, if I do pass, it doesn't bother me a ton. It just let's me know that I may go back and look at that more during Step I prep. Most people in my class feel this way. People are still collaborative and friendly. Are there people who are devastated and stressed out? Sure. Does this happen at every school? It does. I reiterate, class rank and AOA do matter for top residencies, even coming from a P/F school, so there will be burnt out, stressed people everywhere. I'm skeptical that it is significantly worse at a non-P/F school.
I don't think it is irrelevant. Still, it seems crazy to me to make a significant choice like med school using the type of grading as a major determinant. In the long run, this is going to make very little difference compared to other factors. You will be burnt out and stressed whereever you go. Even with a little extra stress of grades, the payoff to going to a school that matches your interests and goals should be way more important.
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Lazy students and low scores = less studying = no burnout. Is that a big assumption?
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Being burnt out has to do moreso the student than the school. Some students allow themselves to be burnt out by studying too much without taking breaks(or spend the entire day studying....). This usually occurs in the first year, where people assume they have to know every word and detail of their notes. Once they get the hang of studying, it's much more manageable, and the "burn out" becomes minimal to nonexistent.
You can do a good amount of studying, and not feel burned out, especially if you make time for hobbies and to talk with people you care about. Stress is also dependent on the person. I wouldn't say every med student is stressed. Some students are able to cope well. The good thing about med school is if you do experience stress, you'll be safe to know that a lot of classmates are in the same boat, and that bond can be shared
You can do a good amount of studying, and not feel burned out, especially if you make time for hobbies and to talk with people you care about. Stress is also dependent on the person. I wouldn't say every med student is stressed. Some students are able to cope well. The good thing about med school is if you do experience stress, you'll be safe to know that a lot of classmates are in the same boat, and that bond can be shared
Being burnt out has to do moreso the student than the school. Some students allow themselves to be burnt out by studying too much without taking breaks(or spend the entire day studying....). This usually occurs in the first year, where people assume they have to know every word and detail of their notes. Once they get the hang of studying, it's much more manageable, and the "burn out" becomes minimal to nonexistent.
You can do a good amount of studying, and not feel burned out, especially if you make time for hobbies and to talk with people you care about. Stress is also dependent on the person. I wouldn't say every med student is stressed. Some students are able to cope well. The good thing about med school is if you do experience stress, you'll be safe to know that a lot of classmates are in the same boat, and that bond can be shared
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Not all P/F schools internally rank and even the ones that do tend to place almost the least amount of weight on preclinical rank for AOA. This has been discussed to death in more than one thread.
I know this. But there are med students at all schools who care about class rank. My point was that P/F doesn't necessarily mean you won't get stressed or have competitive classmates.
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So basically P/F at ranking schools only soothe the competitive nature of the dumb classmates that don't understand that P/F doesn't necessarily mean "true P/F".
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So basically P/F at ranking schools only soothe the competitive nature of the dumb classmates that don't understand that P/F doesn't necessarily mean "true P/F".
Yep! I was at an interview and they told me how uncompetitive their class was because it was P/F. Same presentation then went on to inform me how their internal ranking system works and that it will show up in their dean letter...I nearly LOL'd.
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Yes, also a lot of schools don't use pre-clinicals AT ALL for AOA, including mine. So that invalidates the argument since there is neither pre-clinical rankings or AOA stuff involved.
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Definitely not the dry ones...
Well, are there dry med schools?
Well, are there dry med schools?
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Loma Linda.
Ok fine. It may not hold true at all places, but this isn't really the argument I was trying to make about P/F.
There are still burnt out and stressed people at your P/F, non-ranked school, right? And that's my real point. Med school is a stressful time, and there are MANY causes of stress during school, and grades do not factor into all of them. That's why the idea of using the P/F grading system as a way to determine burnout is misleading.
If all else was equal, would a H/HP/P/F school have more stress than a P/F school? Of course it would. But all things are not equal. There are many things to consider when choosing a med school. You can account for the grading system, but the weight it receives on SDN is crazy with some posters listing it as a major factor. Sorry, I don't buy it.
I am at a school with a H/HP/P/F grading system. I don't love it, but I love almost everything else about the school. I felt that it has a great program and will help me get the career that I want. Why should I care what the grading system is? I see no problem using it as a factor to decide between two similar schools, but having the mentality of "I must go to a P/F school" is short-sighted.
As well, I feel that the difference is overblown. I worried about it when I was choosing schools. But all the current students I talked to said that it wasn't a huge deal, and that the benefits of the school were worth it. None of my friends in my class have never complained about our grading system. I feel the same way. It may add a little stress, but I think it helps with motivation. I also have not witnessed any major gunning events, and I feel our class is collaborative and friendly. I think anyone who is really stressed under this system would probably be stressed at a P/F school as well. As knuxnole was saying, the person probably matters more than the school does.
Sorry for the mini-rant. I just roll my eyes every time I see the pithy "P/F schools have less burnout so you should go there" as if it is an established fact. I think it is more complicated than that.
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True, schools with graduates not matching into competitive specialties may have students with a 'low rate of burnout'; however, those schools might also just be giving a lesser quality all-around education. The trick would be to find schools with a p/f system, high student satisfaction, AND students matching into competitive residencies.
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burn!
I was referring to the rankings of students in his class by the administration. Or am I missing something...
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I was referring to the rankings of students in his class by the administration. Or am I missing something...
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I was referring to the rankings of students in his class by the administration. Or am I missing something...
yea, i think it is clear he meant ranking of students lol
mmmcdowe goes to a top 10 school, iirc...so it would have been funny otherwise.
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I smiled.
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4
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I was referring to the rankings of students in his class by the administration. Or am I missing something...
Oh, I thought you were calling him out for going to an unranked school. I know what you mean now. Sorry!
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Damn you MedPR, a part of me was hoping you did that on purpose to instigate a war of words! Seeing as how it was an accident takes all the fun out of it
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Damn you MedPR, a part of me was hoping you did that on purpose to instigate a war of words! Seeing as how it was an accident takes all the fun out of it
You know that's not my style!
No biggie.