Med Students... *gasp* caught cheating!

[calvnandhobbs68]

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Killing in the name of your country is apparently acceptable though...

Personally, I think military doctors are conflicted. "Let's shoot to kill". Then back at base camp, the doctor sutures up his own. It goes against everything that medicine stands for.

Whatever, that's for another thread, another day.

Obviously you haven't read much of the milmed forum...the average day for your military doctor doesn't involve shooting people and suturing them back up at camp. It involves sitting in an office filling out paperwork and getting bossed around by nurses who are a higher rank than you. Not as exciting or conflicted as many people make it out to be.

 

[KTownGT]

Snitches get stitches.

Good news though, medical students learn to suture wounds!

 

[senorsquishie]

Collaberate on a test, face the concequences.

Fast forward 1 year. Don't collabrate on pt care, Pt dies...

There is so much shared work in the adult world. If you don't know something, you have to feel comfortable asking about it.

I am not saying what they did is right, but collabration is an important skill to posess, and there should be more group work in higher education.

 

[V5RED]

I am pretty surprised by the attitudes shown in this thread.

In threads where someone asks about their chances with an academic integrity violation they get made fun of and told they don't belong in medical school.

Here a bunch of medical students were cheating and got caught. I do not understand why people think the cheaters were doing nothing wrong and the one who reported it was at fault.

This anti "snitch" attitude comes off as rather ghetto and thuggish.

 

[AntiHouseMD]

There is a difference between cheating and collaboration.

 

[theWUbear]

There is a thin line between cheating and collaboration.

Fixed

 

[chrissyxf]

I think it's an unfortunate that the person reporting the cheating is deemed a "snitch" whereas the people who made collaborative efforts are told that it's okay because everyone does it and it wasn't on a big assignment. I think the person who reported the cheating (having done it myself) was in a state of turmoil when they decided to stand up for what's right. It's incredibly hard to do the right thing at a very personal expense. I was ostracized for the remainder of my graduate degree and no one even got kicked out! That person should be applauded for upholding the right thing just because it's right. There is no "small" crime. If you can't handle taking small online quizzes/labs on your own, how in the world will you handle an actual ethical situation??
I had an attending who directly ignored a patient's desire to not be intubated by refusing to sign a DNI because "the guy doesn't realize that that means we won't be able to keep him alive." The patient was going to die regardless and he did, intubated, after 3 weeks of being on a ventilator. I reported that too...does that make a snitch? Or is it only okay if it's a "big" situation.
It's a slippery slope. Know what you stand for and stand up for it unapologetically.
I also applaud the school for not being afraid to take a stance, even at the expense of their reputation because in the end, a school should care about their school's integrity, and part of that is having a zero tolerance policy that they actually stand by.

 

[bassvp]

I don't think this means that all 100 admitted to cheating. It's pretty bad but let's not assume that we've all cheated (since college).

+1 👍

 

[gettheleadout]

You noticed that too eh?

If you follow the directions of the school honor code and report on your cheating peers, then you are "unfit for leadership", a dirty rotten snitch, ostracized by your peers, and we might as well invoke Burnett's Law on the reporting party.

Of course if you don't report the violation, then you directly disobey the honor code of your school, you will receive academic punishment, be dishonorable to the profession, demonstrate poor judgement, have no sense of ethics, etc.

This sounds like a great interview question. Is the only correct solution to refuse to acknowledge or abide by the schools honor code, and put that in writing? There was a dude at Princeton in the 1980s who managed to do that, and the university was forced to proctor all of his exams in private.

I don't understand the blind animosity towards "snitches." If someone reports an ethics violation such as cheating with malicious intent, they are as much in the wrong as the person actually doing the cheating. At the same time, as a professional one has the obligation to uphold ethics and help maintain a fair and safe environment, and a reporter in a normal case should not be subject to retaliation.

 

[235788]

I don't understand the blind animosity towards "snitches." If someone reports an ethics violation such as cheating with malicious intent, they are as much in the wrong as the person actually doing the cheating. At the same time, as a professional one has the obligation to uphold ethics and help maintain a fair and safe environment, and a reporter in a normal case should not be subject to retaliation.

But don't you think the "snitch" should act in a mature manner and ignore what has no impact on his well-being. It's not like they were cheating on the step-1... He is not different than someone who would report someone for downloading music of something.

 

[Hoya2009]

But don't you think the "snitch" should act in a mature manner and ignore what has no impact on his well-being. It's not like they were cheating on the step-1... He is not different than someone who would report someone for downloading music of something.

But he doesn't want to get hung out to dry for knowing yet covering up, since that is just as bad an offense. I'd look out for #1, too. I'd take a hit to cover for my brother, but probably not anyone else.

Bottom line: no shady business on tests = no issues
People are too dumb about this kind of thing.

 

[bassvp]

I think I missed where the person who wasn't cheating should get in trouble.

 

[iniquus]

I don't understand the blind animosity towards "snitches." If someone reports an ethics violation such as cheating with malicious intent, they are as much in the wrong as the person actually doing the cheating. At the same time, as a professional one has the obligation to uphold ethics and help maintain a fair and safe environment, and a reporter in a normal case should not be subject to retaliation.

You don't understand why snitching is immoral?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxdqC8kZlQo[/youtube]

 

[MeowMeowCAT]

People are too dumb about this kind of thing.

Stupid people ruin everything :'(

 

[CodeBlu]

You don't understand why snitching is immoral?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxdqC8kZlQo[/youtube]

'I'm not gonna call and be like... the serial killer is in 4E!"

When some of these people in this thread who are taking the moral high ground get into a hospital where your actions can be misunderstood by a myriad of different people, then they will learn.

Snitching is acceptable in certain cases, but this was just downright stupid. I also tend to disagree with the snitching policy our UNITED states of america has adopted. Let's spy on our neighbors all in the interest of national security. Soccer moms are undercover CIA operatives. Our nation has been reduced to a paranoid bag of multiple personalities.

 

[CodeBlu]

But don't you think the "snitch" should act in a mature manner and ignore what has no impact on his well-being. It's not like they were cheating on the step-1... He is not different than someone who would report someone for downloading music of something.

I want someone to openly admit to me that they have not downloaded music for free. I will laugh in their face and ask to see their iTunes receipt.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Obviously you haven't read much of the milmed forum...the average day for your military doctor doesn't involve shooting people and suturing them back up at camp. It involves sitting in an office filling out paperwork and getting bossed around by nurses who are a higher rank than you. Not as exciting or conflicted as many people make it out to be.

don't attendings come in at o-6

 

[KarmaDoc]

man i hate snitches. i can only imagine decking some nerdy asian kid if he turned everyone in like that then telling him to perform first aid on himself.

What's with the racism man? That's seriously uncalled for and quite frankly disturbing in someone who might eventually practice medicine and care for patients with such hateful stereotypes floating inside their head.

 

[BHaus9]

But don't you think the "snitch" should act in a mature manner and ignore what has no impact on his well-being. It's not like they were cheating on the step-1... He is not different than someone who would report someone for downloading music of something.

So assuming that it was made clear to the students that they were to complete the assignment by themselves, how exactly is this ethically distinct from cheating on step 1? Yeah, we all know how important step 1 is, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for making the suggestion, but both involve treacherous maneuvers intended to advance oneself in the medical profession. Plain and simple. Clearly, as others have stated, "collaboration" is encouraged in the professional world, so why should it be punished during medical school? Here's why: Because at some point a group is only as good as the members of which it is comprised, and all else being equal, I'd prefer to be treated by a doctor who doesn't have to ask around for a diagnosis.

When some of these people in this thread who are taking the moral high ground get into a hospital where your actions can be misunderstood by a myriad of different people, then they will learn.

Snitching is acceptable in certain cases, but this was just downright stupid.

We can debate the ethicality of "snitching" all day, and no one likes a tattle tale, but what's unambiguous is that these students should not have done what they did.

Hypothetical scenario: You are in an undergraduate class that awards an "A" to the top 10% of students in the course. It comes to your attention that the smartest student in the class is getting paid to complete online assignments for other students in the class, many of whom would otherwise have a much lower grade than you but now threaten to bump you into the "B" range. What do you do?

 

[CodeBlu]

We can debate the ethicality of "snitching" all day, and no one likes a tattle tale, but what's unambiguous is that these students should not have done what they did.

Hypothetical scenario: You are in an undergraduate class that awards an "A" to the top 10% of students in the course. It comes to your attention that the smartest student in the class is getting paid to complete online assignments for other students in the class, many of whom would otherwise have a much lower grade than you but now threaten to bump you into the "B" range. What do you do?

Your hypothetical scenario is based upon the premise that now, this cheating affects me. Yes, I would tell, because it clearly affects my chances now. But, in this instance, no one was being harmed as someone mentioned earlier.

Besides, I usually did the online assignments for my friends anyways.

I did better on exams because of it. Just extra practice.

 

[pfaction]

Okay seriously is everyone saying they never borrowed a lab report or asked another person for graphs or data? That's cheating.

/endtopic...maybe.

 

[bassvp]

When some of these people in this thread who are taking the moral high ground get into a hospital where your actions can be misunderstood by a myriad of different people, then they will learn.

I definitely think you should lead off your interviews with how taking the moral high ground just isn't practical in the real world.

 

[CodeBlu]

I definitely think you should lead off your interviews with how taking the moral high ground just isn't practical in the real world.

It's called discretion. I have some. Along with some common sense that doesn't appear to be so common.

If someone is going to be injured by my lack of reporting an offense then yes, I am a re-****. But, if someone does something trivial, and I go rat them out. Even though the "right" thing to do is report it. There are BETTER ways of handling situations. First off, talk to the person directly, and address your concern with them.

Imagine if every little thing got reported. Nothing would get done. It's not conducive to team play. Those people who constantly ratted people out, did bad for themselves, did bad for the community dynamic, and now no one trusts anyone. Guess what, in health care that's scary. I'd rather the team trying to save my life, collaborate with each other rather than not.

Edit: Try a dental school interview. They ask you questions like this all the time. You see someone cheating, what do you do?

The wrong answer is rat them out. The right answer is to approach the individual in a non-threatening manner. Maybe there's something that lead them to cheat. They couldn't find time to study because they spent the weekend working a part time job because their parents lost their job.
Yeah, it's not right. But a sliver of humanity in someone would empathize and try to help this person realize that cheating is wrong.

Getting someone in trouble, getting them kicked out of school, doesn't rehabilitate.

 

[smq123]

So assuming that it was made clear to the students that they were to complete the assignment by themselves, how exactly is this ethically distinct from cheating on step 1?

We can debate the ethicality of "snitching" all day, and no one likes a tattle tale, but what's unambiguous is that these students should not have done what they did.

- The assumption that it was "made clear" to students that they were not supposed to collaborate is kind of a big assumption. Maybe SUNY Upstate did a better job of outlining, in black and white, clear instructions for every assignment than my school did, but I'm not going to assume that that's the case either.

- Again, I don't think that this is necessarily "unambiguous." They were told that they were allowed to consult notes and coursebooks. Why then, unless it was specifically spelled out, would any student assume that collaboration is forbidden? It was, essentially, an open book test.

The point is, you just don't know. Having taken similar quizzes, and not having such instructions spelled out, I find it very possible that the students at SUNY Upstate may not have realized that collaboration was not allowed. On the other hand, the school might have said something beforehand, and the students went ahead and did it anyway. (Although 100 students is a lot to flout the rules so openly.)

 

[BMEN]

How would you guys answer the Adcoms interview question
"If you were in a class where attendance was required but you saw someone signing in for someone else , what would you do?"

 

[BHaus9]

Your hypothetical scenario is based upon the premise that now, this cheating affects me. Yes, I would tell, because it clearly affects my chances now. But, in this instance, no one was being harmed as someone mentioned earlier.

Besides, I usually did the online assignments for my friends anyways.

I did better on exams because of it. Just extra practice.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that in medical school, too, you might be ranked against your appears, and if I'm getting beat, I'd prefer that it be by honest means. That said, should these students face any major punitive action? Probably not. A warning sounds sufficient. And should someone have blabbered? Again, probably not. Truth is I'm a pretty passive guy and, in the same situation, I would have just secretly brooded rather than ratted anyone out. Still, though, it seems a little ridiculous to me to claim that breaking the rules is ethically more permissible than objectively pointing out when those rules are broken.

For the record, I've totally downloaded music. But, again, just cuz it's been done before doesn't mean it's hunky dory.

Okay seriously is everyone saying they never borrowed a lab report or asked another person for graphs or data? That's cheating.

/endtopic...maybe.

Yeah, actually, I'm saying that. I wonder how many people out there would kill a drifter for a guaranteed spot in medical school.....

 

[CodeBlu]

How would you guys answer the Adcoms interview question
"If you were in a class where attendance was required but you saw someone signing in for someone else , what would you do?"

Find out why that person is signing this person in. Is this person sick/working another job to support their education/have something else going on? If the person has a really bad hangover and can't come to class, then they're an idiot.

Water and french fries the night before = less hangover the next morning.

But in all honesty, you don't go telling the prof right away. Make sure the people doing this, know that you don't condone it and you will not stand for it if they continue to do it.

Too many professors have complained to me about dealing with stuff like this because "these gunner pre-meds think they're winning something by getting this person in trouble. when it doesn't matter if the person comes to my class. if they do poorly on the exam they still get a bad mark. instead of worrying about other people, some of these pre-meds should worry about themselves first and then others."

 

[gettheleadout]

Your hypothetical scenario is based upon the premise that now, this cheating affects me. Yes, I would tell, because it clearly affects my chances now. But, in this instance, no one was being harmed as someone mentioned earlier.

Besides, I usually did the online assignments for my friends anyways.

I did better on exams because of it. Just extra practice.

So your response to a breach of ethics depends on your chances for personal benefit or disadvantage? Nice.

Whether you think or are even able to discern whether someone else is being harmed by another's ethical missteps is irrelevant; what is known is that the playing field is knowingly and immorally made unfair, and this is significant enough and the important factor to consider is responding to the situation.

Don't act like someone who disagrees with you is arrogant and on some "moral high ground" just because you think they're being uptight.

Consider another scenario, where you're a borderline A-B student and you are unaware of the cheating. After receiving a B in the class, you learn that another student, one of the top in the class (with an A locked in and no worries about the cheating) was aware of what was going on and didn't report it because "it didn't affect him." I bet you wouldn't exactly support his egoistic outlook now, would you?

 

[CodeBlu]

So your response to a breach of ethics depends on your chances for personal benefit or disadvantage? Nice.

Whether you think or are even able to discern whether someone else is being harmed by another's ethical missteps is irrelevant; what is known is that the playing field is knowingly and immorally made unfair, and this is significant enough and the important factor to consider is responding to the situation.

Don't act like someone who disagrees with you is arrogant and on some "moral high ground" just because you think they're being uptight.

Consider another scenario, where you're a borderline A-B student and you are unaware of the cheating. After receiving a B in the class, you learn that another student, one of the top in the class (with an A locked in and no worries about the cheating) was aware of what was going on and didn't report it because "it didn't affect him." I bet you wouldn't exactly support his egoistic outlook now, would you?

You have to understand. I hate cheating just as much as the next person. But I am playing devil's advocate here.

The whole point is, when and where do you draw the line? It's a gray area. We're not philosophers. But this is what philosophers do.

In this situation, these medical students were probably in the wrong. But in the grand scheme of things, it means nothing. This causes a whole lot of headache and frustration for the administration, and for what? SOme online quizzes about a medical literature class?

 

[Avoidthetiger]

I want someone to openly admit to me that they have not downloaded music for free. I will laugh in their face and ask to see their iTunes receipt.

grooveshark, FTW.

At one of my med school interviews, the fourth year asked what I would do if I knew students where cheating in my class. It sounds like alot of students did cheat there - making me not want to attend. Additionally, she got upset when I said "eh, not my problem". I mind my own business, and do as well as I can. She was like "but what if they were wrecking the curve"... my response, "well, they won't do good on the USMLE... and if they do, then they figured out a way to cheap and learn"

 

[BMEN]

Find out why that person is signing this person in. Is this person sick/working another job to support their education/have something else going on? If the person has a really bad hangover and can't come to class, then they're an idiot.

Water and french fries the night before = less hangover the next morning.

But in all honesty, you don't go telling the prof right away. Make sure the people doing this, know that you don't condone it and you will not stand for it if they continue to do it.

Too many professors have complained to me about dealing with stuff like this because "these gunner pre-meds think they're winning something by getting this person in trouble. when it doesn't matter if the person comes to my class. if they do poorly on the exam they still get a bad mark. instead of worrying about other people, some of these pre-meds should worry about themselves first and then others."

Is that what he ADCOMS want to hear though? The thing is they want to see if you can make the "hard decisions" that come with being a physician . A big stretch lightly similar scenario is seeing a friend during the internship taking "Adderal/Amphetamines" to keep up with the work load. You're supposed to report it. .

I realize we are not philosophers but as future physicians we need to have a philosophy to follow. I got chastised by an ADCOMs for not having one when asked. Not sure if they applies to all though

 

[CodeBlu]

Is that what he ADCOMS want to hear though? The thing is they want to see if you can make the "hard decisions" that come with being a physician . A big stretch lightly similar scenario is seeing a friend during the internship taking "Adderal/Amphetamines" to keep up with the work load. You're supposed to report it. .

Making the hard decisions though, requires years of experience. Whole point of medical school is to teach you the lingo, and residency builds you up clinically.

But then you will learn most of your real life decision making stuff in M4 and then internship.

Personally, I am completely against people taking amphetamines or stimulants in general that do not actually need them. I had a friend suffer a heart attack from abusing amphetamines. So, he learned his lesson. I didn't report him to anyone, but he sure got what he deserved.

 

[BHaus9]

It's called discretion. I have some. Along with some common sense that doesn't appear to be so common.

If someone is going to be injured by my lack of reporting an offense then yes, I am a re-****. But, if someone does something trivial, and I go rat them out. Even though the "right" thing to do is report it. There are BETTER ways of handling situations. First off, talk to the person directly, and address your concern with them.

Imagine if every little thing got reported. Nothing would get done. It's not conducive to team play. Those people who constantly ratted people out, did bad for themselves, did bad for the community dynamic, and now no one trusts anyone. Guess what, in health care that's scary. I'd rather the team trying to save my life, collaborate with each other rather than not.

Edit: Try a dental school interview. They ask you questions like this all the time. You see someone cheating, what do you do?

The wrong answer is rat them out. The right answer is to approach the individual in a non-threatening manner. Maybe there's something that lead them to cheat. They couldn't find time to study because they spent the weekend working a part time job because their parents lost their job.
Yeah, it's not right. But a sliver of humanity in someone would empathize and try to help this person realize that cheating is wrong.

Getting someone in trouble, getting them kicked out of school, doesn't rehabilitate.

But who decides whether people are ultimately harmed by cheating? What if someone who has inadequate medical knowledge becomes a doctor entirely through deception? In each instance of cheating, not one person was harmed per se, but now what? (I know this is a more or less impossible situation, but for the sake of argument...)

I agree that zero-tolerance policies can be really, really stupid. Intent and circumstance do matter. But what's hard is determining where to draw the line.

- The assumption that it was "made clear" to students that they were not supposed to collaborate is kind of a big assumption. Maybe SUNY Upstate did a better job of outlining, in black and white, clear instructions for every assignment than my school did, but I'm not going to assume that that's the case either.

- Again, I don't think that this is necessarily "unambiguous." They were told that they were allowed to consult notes and coursebooks. Why then, unless it was specifically spelled out, would any student assume that collaboration is forbidden? It was, essentially, an open book test.

The point is, you just don't know. Having taken similar quizzes, and not having such instructions spelled out, I find it very possible that the students at SUNY Upstate may not have realized that collaboration was not allowed. On the other hand, the school might have said something beforehand, and the students went ahead and did it anyway. (Although 100 students is a lot to flout the rules so openly.)

If they were not adequately informed, that's completely understandable, and the administration/faculty needs to be more explicit about what type of work is expected. But that never even seemed to be a point of contention in this thread. To me, it seems that the prevailing opinion in this thread is one of "oh, it's okay, they weren't trying to hurt anyone, so let's just let them off with a nod and a wink."

The point of my post was not to make the claim that these students were wittingly violating the honor code, but rather, as a point of curiosity, to get people to offer up some opinions on how purposefully cheating on a quiz is or isn't different from puposefully cheating on step 1.

 

[bassvp]

It's called discretion. I have some. Along with some common sense that doesn't appear to be so common.

If someone is going to be injured by my lack of reporting an offense then yes, I am a re-****. But, if someone does something trivial, and I go rat them out. Even though the "right" thing to do is report it. There are BETTER ways of handling situations. First off, talk to the person directly, and address your concern with them.

Imagine if every little thing got reported. Nothing would get done. It's not conducive to team play. Those people who constantly ratted people out, did bad for themselves, did bad for the community dynamic, and now no one trusts anyone. Guess what, in health care that's scary. I'd rather the team trying to save my life, collaborate with each other rather than not.

Edit: Try a dental school interview. They ask you questions like this all the time. You see someone cheating, what do you do?

The wrong answer is rat them out. The right answer is to approach the individual in a non-threatening manner. Maybe there's something that lead them to cheat. They couldn't find time to study because they spent the weekend working a part time job because their parents lost their job.
Yeah, it's not right. But a sliver of humanity in someone would empathize and try to help this person realize that cheating is wrong.

Getting someone in trouble, getting them kicked out of school, doesn't rehabilitate.

Good hospitals have great systems for openly reporting offenses, mistakes and lack of following protocol and rules. Believe it or not, the reporting is good for patients because it stops people from taking shortcuts that put the patient at risk. Not reporting those students (we'll assume that they were, indeed, cheating for argument's sake), helps them build this attitude that taking shortcuts IS ok. It's not ok and eventually someone does get hurt by it. If these things don't get stopped early, later on people don't even realize that they're taking shortcuts.

I just don't think it is a healthy path to go down to simply let people cheat, particularly in academic settings where no one is getting hurt. They're teaching us to not cheat so that when we get the training wheels off we don't go and hurt someone!

 

[BHaus9]

Too many professors have complained to me about dealing with stuff like this because "these gunner pre-meds think they're winning something by getting this person in trouble. when it doesn't matter if the person comes to my class. if they do poorly on the exam they still get a bad mark. instead of worrying about other people, some of these pre-meds should worry about themselves first and then others."

If that's the professor's stance, why does he or she have a sign-in policy in the first place?

 

[NYBills987]

How would you guys answer the Adcoms interview question
"If you were in a class where attendance was required but you saw someone signing in for someone else , what would you do?"

I don't know how I would answer this in an interview, but if I saw this in real life--- I wouldn't care. Sorry if that makes me unethical. Also, I hate the argument "if you collaborate on this quiz, you won't be a good doctor.. if you can't be ethical here, you won't be ethical anywhere"... that is just not true and if you are trying to pretend that you can extrapolate future behavior based on this incident, you are deluding yourself.

Some people on here were talking about how they themselves have turned in cheaters. I don't want an answer to this but how many of you did it because you were angry that other people were having an easier time than you? I think people are self-motivated to further their own best interests more often than not when they "snitch."

However, while I think that telling on the other kids is kind of low since I believe it will have no bearing on how they practice as physicians, there is no way the snitch should be punished... they might be trying to get a leg up on their classmates, but they didn't do anything wrong in telling. Who knows? Maybe they cheated on another test-- but in this situation you can't fault someone for telling the truth. Even if it seems like a petty thing to do.

 

[CodeBlu]

I realize we are not philosophers but as future physicians we need to have a philosophy to follow. I got chastised by an ADCOMs for not having one when asked. Not sure if they applies to all though

Sure, but would you not agree that your philosophy changes over time with experience?

By the same token, you then wouldn't have a shred of integrity. Doctors are supposed to have a certain level of integrity. But, sometimes like I said, the line isn't so clear. Being able to make a judgement call is very difficult and could mean the difference between you killing someone, and you saving a life.
That's pretty huge isn't it? Anyone that wants to pursue medicine should know that no matter how finely tuned their moral compass is, they are not perfect. They are going to make mistakes. The whole point is to avoid mistakes that kill someone, or do harm to society. You live. You learn. C'est la vie.

 

[CodeBlu]

If that's the professor's stance, why does he or she have a sign-in policy in the first place?

University regulation, or should I say department regulation.

 

[BMEN]

The thing to remember these kinds of questions get asked in interviews so its good to have some well thought out answer to defend your position. just saying to help bring to light how something like this might be fair game later 👍

Sure, but would you not agree that your philosophy changes over time with experience?

By the same token, you then wouldn't have a shred of integrity. Doctors are supposed to have a certain level of integrity. But, sometimes like I said, the line isn't so clear. Being able to make a judgement call is very difficult and could mean the difference between you killing someone, and you saving a life.
That's pretty huge isn't it? Anyone that wants to pursue medicine should know that no matter how finely tuned their moral compass is, they are not perfect. They are going to make mistakes. The whole point is to avoid mistakes that kill someone, or do harm to society. You live. You learn. C'est la vie

I agree it does and its what makes a philosophy great. I think i just got chastised for not knowing what mine was at the moment based on my life experiences.

 

[CodeBlu]

I agree that zero-tolerance policies can be really, really stupid. Intent and circumstance do matter. But what's hard is determining where to draw the line.

Glad we agree on this point. It's hard to determine when right is wrong, and wrong is right. It requires finesses that I don't presume to have. But I'm not going to rat out a colleague without talking to them first.

 

[BHaus9]

I don't know how I would answer this in an interview, but if I saw this in real life--- I wouldn't care. Sorry if that makes me unethical. Also, I hate the argument "if you collaborate on this quiz, you won't be a good doctor.. if you can't be ethical here, you won't be ethical anywhere"... that is just not true and if you are trying to pretend that you can extrapolate future behavior based on this incident, you are deluding yourself.

Right, because even preachers who fondle altar boys can be really good at delivering the word of God.

Seriously, though, I don't think anyone's claiming these kids will be bad doctors. It's just a matter of holding people accountable. Even good doctors need to chastised when they err.

 

[BHaus9]

Glad we agree on this point. It's hard to determine when right is wrong, and wrong is right. It requires finesses that I don't presume to have. But I'm not going to rat out a colleague without talking to them first.

Agreed. I wouldn't either. I just wouldn't be resentful of someone who did is all.

 

[CodeBlu]

The thing to remember these kinds of questions get asked in interviews so its good to have some well thought out answer to defend your position. just saying to help bring to light how something like this might be fair game later 👍
I agree it does and its what makes a philosophy great. I think i just got chastised for not knowing what mine was at the moment based on my life experiences.

If I've learned anything, it's that these types of questions don't really have right or wrong answers. Demonstrate thought process. Present both sides of the argument. Show that you can critically evaluate both arguments and then reach a conclusion.

Which is hilariously enough, the MCAT writing sample.

The formula agree, disagree, state a rule is pretty bang on to this.

 

[bassvp]

Good, healthy debate...keep it goin'!

(CodeBlu...you think and type pretty fast). ;-)

 

[CodeBlu]

Good, healthy debate...keep it goin'!

(CodeBlu...you think and type pretty fast). ;-)

I've got opinions, and I learned how to type thanks to my old macintosh. I never bothered with mavis beacon. I hate her voice.

Thanks though!

I don't type properly. But whatever, using 4 fingers only and the occasional pinky works just fine for me. Whenever I start typing REALLY fast, I lose my ring finger and go in with three. It's weird.

PS. I actually liked the MCAT writing sample. It was my favorite section next to bio.

 

[CuttingCorneas]

grooveshark, FTW.

At one of my med school interviews, the fourth year asked what I would do if I knew students where cheating in my class. It sounds like alot of students did cheat there - making me not want to attend. Additionally, she got upset when I said "eh, not my problem". I mind my own business, and do as well as I can. She was like "but what if they were wrecking the curve"... my response, "well, they won't do good on the USMLE... and if they do, then they figured out a way to cheap and learn"

😍The one person I've met who uses Grooveshark too...

Maybe the students just "misinterpreted the rules."

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnqQhUdXgvI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[CodeBlu]

Agreed. I wouldn't either. I just wouldn't be resentful of someone who did is all.

mmmmm there are some people who are just notorious rats. You know what I mean? Their intentions for reporting the incident are not pure.

I swear, I've seen way too many people report others, with malice in their eyes. They get off on watching other people get in trouble. That is what I cannot tolerate. It's just completely inhumane. That's why, I'd like to think as a more humanistic approach, I would always consult the person in question.

Who knows what they're going through? As a physician, you're going to have patients lie, cheat, and steal all the time. Your job is not to be a judge on their actions, but to help them understand that what they're doing is wrong.

 

[BMEN]

If I've learned anything, it's that these types of questions don't really have right or wrong answers. Demonstrate thought process. Present both sides of the argument. Show that you can critically evaluate both arguments and then reach a conclusion.

Which is hilariously enough, the MCAT writing sample.

The formula agree, disagree, state a rule is pretty bang on to this.

I'll agree to some extent. Most of the time this is the case. But for some questions its see how well grounded you are in your "ethics and morals". From the convos I had with some adcoms they use it to test if there are any "emotional instabilities" with in someone.
However, if you do the approach of present both sides with a critical evaluation, you are in the clear 99% of the time.

 

[CodeBlu]

😍The one person I've met who uses Grooveshark too...

Maybe the students just "misinterpreted the rules."

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnqQhUdXgvI[/YOUTUBE]

Male pattern baldness. *Shudder*

Scares me to death. I hope I am not a victim. It's likely that the students misinterpreted the rules. The administration has a responsibility, since it was reported to act on it. However, they are probably just as internally torn as we are.

"But these students are OUR students."
"They did so well on the USMLE"
"They're compassionate and caring, and contribute to the community"

While the converse,

"They're rotten little cheaters, every last one of them"
"I'm going to bury their cheating little carcasses."

 

[bassvp]

Whenever I start typing REALLY fast, I lose my ring finger and go in with three.

at first I didn't see the word typing...