Med students with ADHD?

[MD'05]

I do have ADHD. It's not fake. Some people have better concentration abilities, some people are better athletes. I must stay on the move to be happy. If I'm not moving, I'm sleeping.

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[typeB-md]

I do have ADHD. It's not fake. Some people have better concentration abilities, some people are better athletes. I must stay on the move to be happy. If I'm not moving, I'm sleeping.

so then steriods and Test shouldn't be illegal since not everyone is the best athlete they could be?

the simple truth has already been stated... adderall, like anabolic steroids, is performance enhancing regardless of 'disorder.'

 

[beriberi]

One of my neuro attendings (a crusty old fellow) talked to me once about the good old days, when amphetamines were legal and available. (the fifties, I believe, guessing based on his degree of crustiness). He talked about how they all used them to study and take call and it was really great. Because everyone is better on speed.

Love, Your Local Speed Dealer

 

[anothertbmember]

Yeah, this is a great thread.

Comedic even. I hate studying, and I can't focus. I think I could be diagnosed with adult ADHD, it even runs in my family 3 first cousins diagnosed and treated for ADHD. But, I'm not going to take drugs for it. I'm not going to even get checked for it. I can operate the way I am, and don't need something to prop me up.

I am not pulling the grades I want in med school, but I'm not going to go get meds to put me up there.

 

[SocialistMD]

It's sad that drug companies are so quick to act as dealers, preying off the vulnerabilities of ultra-competitive premeds, but that's the situation.

Ah yes, the horrible pharmaceutical industry is at fault. Nevermind the fact that these medications require a prescription for use. Nevermind the fact that said prescription must come from a physician, a physician who went through the medical school process and knows there will be people seeking some advantage. Nevermind the fact that physicians give the medication based on a certain criteria based on some sort of evidence of the disorder and the fact that the patient's situation is taken into account.

Look, there were some things I did not like about my psych rotation and the ambiguity with which diagnoses were made. However, I have no doubt that the disorder exists because I have seen people in clinic who would not be able to function without the medication. Does it mean everyone who is on medication really needs it? Probably not, but there is no reason medical students should be immune to the effects of the disorder. You should critique more the diagnostic criteria itself than the people (med students or the general public) who take advantage of its weakness.

As for people with said disorder not belonging in medicine, would you prefer a surgeon standing over you whose type-A personality has had him on anti-hypertensives since the age of 18 and who, without the medication, would rupture a coronary or stroke-out right in the middle of your operation? It's the same thing.

 

[MD'05]

so then steriods and Test shouldn't be illegal since not everyone is the best athlete they could be?

the simple truth has already been stated... adderall, like anabolic steroids, is performance enhancing regardless of 'disorder.'

What are you babbling about? Did I say I took anything? You might have ADD 'cause you can't read.

You know everyone is so high and mighty about med studs taking ritalin, but 1/3 of students in my class are taking either ritalin, concerta, or adderall. Should medical students undergo drug testing to prevent performance enhancement?

 

[Benzo4every1]

All med students are ADD

 

[Crake]

I'm sorry, but anyone who markets Strattera like big business pharmaceutical, shares some of the blame for its misuse. "Do you feel anxious or nervous sometimes? Are you tired, or just don't feel like doing anything? You may have a condition. . . " They advertise for the most blanket, vague symptoms--in short, they convince everyone that something is wrong with them. Oh and yes, FP's are trained medical professionals, but they're still businessmen/women; the sad reality is that they know you're going to get you speed fix from them or from another doctor and they're just going to prescribe it to keep you coming to them. Ethical? No. But this is the real world, so lets not act like we're in some moral fantasy world where doctors actually care about the morality of a premed taking Ritalin.

I'm fine with my surgeon having high blood pressure. I'm also fine with them being bald, short, passive, agressive, passive-agressive, obnoxious, gentle, sweet--whatever their genetic disposition is, I don't begrudge them for it. I do have a problem with them doing Ritalin, Adderol, Benzo, or crack-cocaine. That's where I draw the line. I prefer someone who's not on crystal meth--even if its packaged in a nice pill and FDA approved--doing my surgery. Is that too much to ask?

Oh and I love how being hypertensive is the same as being a speed addict/Ritalin user. I assume being diabetic would be "the same thing" too right? Have you ever seen someone sell their extra Lipitor or insulin? No, and I haven't either. Have you ever seen someone sell their extra Ritalin. Yes, and so have I. They're NOT the same.

Ah yes, the horrible pharmaceutical industry is at fault. Nevermind the fact that these medications require a prescription for use. Nevermind the fact that said prescription must come from a physician, a physician who went through the medical school process and knows there will be people seeking some advantage. Nevermind the fact that physicians give the medication based on a certain criteria based on some sort of evidence of the disorder and the fact that the patient's situation is taken into account.

Look, there were some things I did not like about my psych rotation and the ambiguity with which diagnoses were made. However, I have no doubt that the disorder exists because I have seen people in clinic who would not be able to function without the medication. Does it mean everyone who is on medication really needs it? Probably not, but there is no reason medical students should be immune to the effects of the disorder. You should critique more the diagnostic criteria itself than the people (med students or the general public) who take advantage of its weakness.

As for people with said disorder not belonging in medicine, would you prefer a surgeon standing over you whose type-A personality has had him on anti-hypertensives since the age of 18 and who, without the medication, would rupture a coronary or stroke-out right in the middle of your operation? It's the same thing.

 

[NiteOwl]

This is going to make me unpopular, but. . . here I go. . .

I'm not saying ADHD is a complete fiction. Certainly, there are some people that have an attention deficit disorder and cannot function without the crutch of medication. That is fine, and those persons should avail themselves of treatment.

But for everyone out there who lets their mind wander during lecture or can only read about functional groups for three minutes before getting bored, let me spare you a trip your physician: you don't have ADHD. Practically nobody enjoys concentrating on physics or chemistry for hours on end--much of the material is boring as all hell. And yes, Adderol and Ritalin are speed, they will dope you up and allow for a superhuman harnessing of your concentration abilities, that's a fact. Caffine acts similarly.

I agree with what you are saying for the most part. Of course not many people can concentrate exceptionally well on boring subjects. Yes, after a while a lot of peoples minds will wander when they are studying boring stuff. But what about people who enjoy a subject but can't concentrate on it? For example, I really like biology and to me it is interesting, but I often have trouble focusing when I study it. Those meds don't always "dope you up", I certainly never feel the effects that you described! Never has it givin me "superhuman harnessing of concentration abilities". For most people with ADD (people who truley have it), the medicines allow them to think a little more normally. By that I mean that the racing thoughts slow down a little and the daydreaming is not as frequent. I still have problems concentrating even when on meds, as do many others with ADD.

I just love all of these stories about how "I was doing B- work my freshman year, but now that I'm on (meth) I get better grades." Of course you do. So would anyone who does speed. And anyone who says, "I didn't even know I had it before, I just thought everyone was like this. . ." you don't have ADHD either, but you'll still benefit from speed. It's sad that drug companies are so quick to act as dealers, preying off the vulnerabilities of ultra-competitive premeds, but that's the situation. You either give in and allow yourself to become one of their addicts, or you make the grade on your own.

No, when I got B's I was happy as hell! As I said, all through school (non-college) I didn't do very well. I had a lot of c's in HS, along with some D's, I had a few A's but they were all in art (maybe two were from other classes.) I would have been happy with a bunch of B- grades! I didn't know that I had ADD then. I never thought "everyone was like this". I suspected that I had ADD, but no-one believed me-they all thought it was "self controll issues". My grades improved a lot in college, before I started taking meds. My grades are about the same or maybe a tiny bit better since starting the meds. There is no huge difference though in the grades. I still have to study my butt off; meds just help me not to think about a thousand things at one time. I still think about a lot at once, but not to such a severe degree as before. No-one forced the meds at me, I chose to take them. I chose to because I was tired of my mind working the way it was, I was tired of not being able to concentrate or focus-especially on stuff that I want to focus on! My mind would wander no matter what I was doing, I could be playing a video game and my mind would be off somewhere else.

If you do really have a condition to the point where medication is necessary, that pill is not going to be a panacea--it only completely cures disorders for premeds who never really had one to begin with. Those of you who really have ADHD and need to be medicated don't belong in medicine, pure and simple. Sorry, but I don't want some pill popping meth addict performing surgery on me. Nor do I want a heroin addict, a cocaine addict, or an alcoholic for that matter. Sorry.

You are so ignorant on the subject of ADD. I don't expect a cure from the medications! Also, you don't become addicted just by taking it. The majority of people who become addicted do so because of abuse of the drug. If it is taken as prescribed it isn't very likely to cause addiction (there is still a risk, but it isn't a large risk). I can go without taking it for a couple of weeks and I never have felt like I absolutely had to have it. I have gone without taking it before and it didn't cause any addiction problems/symptoms. People with ADD are very much capable of becoming doctors. This includes the ones that need the meds. Sorry, but I wouldn't want a doctor who refuses to even try to understand a disorder.

Premeds will do anything to gain an edge, it comes with the competition. I swear if there was a pill that could convert lefties into righties, all the lefties would be popping and saying "I never knew I had this disorder, I could never write without smudging my notes and so I eventually gave up and didn't go to lecture. Now that I'm like everyone else, I'm getting all A's!" Of course, seek that cure-all in the pharmacy and you shall find. There's plenty of legal drug pushers out there looking to make money off your insecurity.

WTF is up with you? I never took meds to "gain an edge". I don't take them so that I can come out ahead of everyone! I take them and study normally just to be level with everyone. And to get higher grades, I have to study incredibly hard. I have too, not the meds. Also, I write with my left hand, and I would never change that! Why would I want to? I don't take meds because I am insecure, I take them so that I can function a little more normaly. By no means does it make you completely "normal" or "like everyone else". And it doesn't all of a sudden give you all A's. Yes, I make A's, but I also make B's too.

Fine, I said it. To tell the truth, I'm sick of everyone whining about how much better off they are on speed than they were sober. So now all of you junkies who are wedded to your precious little white pills can flame me. Go ahead.

Don't call me, or anyone else who has ADD, a junkie. This is why I hate the people who take ADD meds when they don't have ADD. It makes people who really have the problem look like trash.

 

[reddirtgirl]

The Holocaust museum... with his/her insinuation that adhd people are physically inferior.

I relish the fact that I can use adderall to tweak my alertness level and get things done. When typeBmd falls asleep at the wheel and kills another person in oncomcoming traffic post call, or kills a pt because s/he made a bad decision in the 37th hour of his/her shift, (or when s/he says the kind of stuff to a pt like the crap s/he says on this board and they commit suicide), let's revisit this issue.

I feel lucky to have my official adhd diagnosis and access to a tried and true substance that allows me to function optimally- or even better. Kinda like military combat pilots who have been taking it (albeit sometimes against their will) for many decades...

to write off a the existance of a disorder because s/he is unable and/or refuses to understand it....that's just idiotic. TypeBmd-types are a dime a dozen. s/he is no less disturbing to some of us w/ a soul or conscience or, god forbid, sympathy and tact. Dealing with this type of person is just another exercise in dealing with a$$holes in medicine, or in real life for that matter.

 

[Crake]

You said yourself you went from being a C/D student to an A/B student. Yes, meth will help you do that. I personally don't think that people who use or abuse performance enhancing drugs belong in medicine--after all you will have carte blanche to abuse whatever more powerful drugs you like once you are actually a doctor. Today it's some Adderoll "because it makes me feel normal" tomorrow its benzo "because normal people feel good" and valium "because it brings me down to normality." All these "ADHD" people are so in love with their drug that they've created this grand illusion of what it is to think and feel normal. Then they've convinced themselves that they don't feel this way unless they're popping Ritalin, but everyone else feels this way without drugs. I don't deny that you actually feel this way; the psychological hold of a methamphetamine is considerable. But please, don't think that there is absolute agreement even within the medical and scientific communities about the condition we call ADHD; everyone who disagrees with you is not ignorant or willfully blind. If you think it's insensitive to call your FDA approved methamphetamine (recently banned in Canada) "speed," then all I can say is I call it how I see it, and I don't pull punches to be polite on the internet. Sorry.

 

[reddirtgirl]

"The 12 deaths out of 30 million prescriptions do not exceed what the FDA says it would expect to occur in a group that size. And the FDA said other factors also had to be considered: Five of the deaths occurred in patients with underlying heart defects. Another involved a child subjected to high temperatures, vigorous exercise and dehydration, said Robert Temple, an associate director for medical policy at the FDA"

do the math. come to your own conclusion.

 

[SocialistMD]

I'm fine with my surgeon having high blood pressure. I'm also fine with them being bald, short, passive, agressive, passive-agressive, obnoxious, gentle, sweet--whatever their genetic disposition is, I don't begrudge them for it. I do have a problem with them doing Ritalin, Adderol, Benzo, or crack-cocaine. That's where I draw the line. I prefer someone who's not on crystal meth--even if its packaged in a nice pill and FDA approved--doing my surgery. Is that too much to ask?

Oh and I love how being hypertensive is the same as being a speed addict/Ritalin user. I assume being diabetic would be "the same thing" too right? Have you ever seen someone sell their extra Lipitor or insulin? No, and I haven't either. Have you ever seen someone sell their extra Ritalin. Yes, and so have I. They're NOT the same.

You are still operating under the assumption that everyone who takes attention-focusing medication is doing so with some sinister motive. If a person is deemed to have disease/disorder x that benefits from treatment y, it doesn't matter what you insert into x and y (be it ADHD, HTN, DM and Adderall, HCTZ and Glucovance, respectively) because it is all the same; disease/disorder & treatment. If you have to have the misfortune of developing appendicitis, will you ask your surgeon if he is on (as you see it) "performance-enhancing" medication? Will you leave the hospital and go to another if the surgeon on-call at 2am when your RLQ pain begins says he does carry the diagnosis of ADHD? Why are you cool with (the sometimes more dangerous) axis II and III diagnoses, but not an axis 1?

And the reason you won't see Franky G on the corner slinging 20's of Lipitor or 10u INH is because it doesn't offer a benefit to people who don't need it. But to turn a blind eye to those who do benefit and condemn them for the actions of those who do abuse the drug is a disservice to any person you may encounter who needs the medication.

 

[typeB-md]

What are you babbling about? Did I say I took anything? You might have ADD 'cause you can't read.

You know everyone is so high and mighty about med studs taking ritalin, but 1/3 of students in my class are taking either ritalin, concerta, or adderall. Should medical students undergo drug testing to prevent performance enhancement?

apparently we both suffer comprehension problems b/c i don't think i specifically addressed you at all in my post. it was a generalized statement, but i appreciate your effort. please don't forget your parting gifts at the door.

 

[typeB-md]

The Holocaust museum... with his/her insinuation that adhd people are physically inferior..

i appreciate the parallel b/w the nazi reformation and my arguments against drug abuse.

I relish the fact that I can use adderall to tweak my alertness level and get things done. When typeBmd falls asleep at the wheel and kills another person in oncomcoming traffic post call, or kills a pt because s/he made a bad decision in the 37th hour of his/her shift, (or when s/he says the kind of stuff to a pt like the crap s/he says on this board and they commit suicide), let's revisit this issue.

you have just made my point right there...
everyone can have their alertness level tweaked out, and yes a 37 hour shift would probably make me tired. so that means i, too, should be able to use a performance enhancer even though i am as normal as the next guy and not diagnosed with a disability, correct? i mean, since i would like to be able to get things done more efficiently than in my natural state i should be able to take it.

I feel lucky to have my official adhd diagnosis and access to a tried and true substance that allows me to function optimally- or even better. Kinda like military combat pilots who have been taking it (albeit sometimes against their will) for many decades...

are you not hearing me? i don't dispute taht it makes you function better/optimally... the fact is
IT MAKES EVERYONE FUNCTION BETTER
Why shouldn't i be able to use it the same way an athlete should be able to use steroids to enhance performance. I want to be the best that i can be, why am i discriminated against because i'm not clinically sub-par mentally?

if we gave adderall to 'healthy' individuals think of the potential. we might be able to shorten lectures and shorten med school altogether. the students would perform much more spectacularly on exams and general retention would be better.

to write off a the existance of a disorder because s/he is unable and/or refuses to understand it....that's just idiotic. TypeBmd-types are a dime a dozen. s/he is no less disturbing to some of us w/ a soul or conscience or, god forbid, sympathy and tact. Dealing with this type of person is just another exercise in dealing with a$$holes in medicine, or in real life for that matter.

i know i'm a dime a dozen, especially when i'm a collegiate athelete as well as top 10% of my med school class. i can't believe i'm even able to participate in sports and school without cheating to gain an edge. Man, and i'm so obnoxious to my classmates as well, it's like i'm always there to help them out and i don't think they can deal with that anymore.

i have flaws and i deal with them.. i don't make excuses for this, that, or the other thing. if i have a problem focusing, i take a break and go hit the gym. when i come back if i still can't focus i take a nap. if by then i still can't focus i call it a night and relax. the next day, i'm usually able to sit down and study and if i'm not, i realize that i already wasted one day, so i force myself to sit and read even though my mind may wonder ever now and then.

if i needed to use a drug to get my tasks done, i'd just as soon quit school and become a personal trainer or coach. i'm not willing to compromise myself and feed into a pharmeceutical hype.

but then again, i'm a dime a doze and probably won't be successful or anything.

 

[MD'05]

apparently we both suffer comprehension problems b/c i don't think i specifically addressed you at all in my post. it was a generalized statement, but i appreciate your effort. please don't forget your parting gifts at the door.

You might just lack posting etiquette. If you are not addressing me, do not quote me. Don't forget your parting gift ... the knob that parts your gluteals as the door slams against your backside!

 

[anothertbmember]

I don't think you all get what some people are trying to say.

Some people aren't cut out to be doctors. Bottom line. If you have ADD maybe you shouldn't be a doctor. Maybe you should be a forest ranger or an extreme athlete or a personal trianer. People have different roles in life. Not everyone can be a doctor, that's why there are a limited number of spots. They only want the best to get in. If your predisposition is to let your mind run, let it do so. Go do something else. This isn't necessarily my view on it.

My view on it is, if you can pull it off without taking drugs, do it, even if you can't be at the top of the list. Why make yourself have to take drugs to do something that you on your own wouldn't be able to do?

 

[typeB-md]

You might just lack posting etiquette. If you are not addressing me, do not quote me. Don't forget your parting gift ... the knob that parts your gluteals as the door slams against your backside!

you sound like the world's biggest tool. sit down so i can teach you some personal skills.

here is what you posted:

I do have ADHD. It's not fake. Some people have better concentration abilities, some people are better athletes. I must stay on the move to be happy. If I'm not moving, I'm sleeping.

and then i said:

so then steriods and Test shouldn't be illegal since not everyone is the best athlete they could be?

the simple truth has already been stated... adderall, like anabolic steroids, is performance enhancing regardless of 'disorder.'

you made a generalized statement in your post (i bolded it) to which my post specifically dealt with. i quoted you because your general statement was the theme of my response.

if you had comprehension skills you would realize that my response dealt with a hypotehtical scenario re: atheletes. you are not an athlete, so therefore, how could you even take it that i was referring to you?

don't even bother responding to this because there's nothing else you can say that would make you look like less of a tool.

 

[reddirtgirl]

ahhh the fringe benefits of having to deal w/ adhd...

too bad a fine specimen of human perfection such as typeBmd will never understand.

what works for him/her should definitely work universally..... just as adderall works exactly the same in each and every human being.

 

[NiteOwl]

You said yourself you went from being a C/D student to an A/B student. Yes, meth will help you do that.

Ah, and you didn't read what I said later: that when I started college, I began getting good grades, BEFORE taking the meds! I didn't take meds in HS (when I was getting C's), then I entered college and my grades improved (still no meds), then third semester of college, I am diagnosed and take meds. And my grades were pretty much the same! The olny reason they improved the little bit that they did was that I was taking classes that I was interested in! I mean, do you want to see my grades or something? Well fine, here you go: First semester A,A,B,C. Second semester A,B,B,B. Third semester A,A,B,B. Fourth semester A,A,A,A,B. I will admit that in the 4th semester I did so well for reasons that didn't have very much to do with meds. These reasons being: One A was from an easy class (first aid), and two of those other classes I would have made B's if it werent for nice proffessors who gave everyone extra points! So really, I was very close to making 2 A's and 3 B's!

Great, now I am probably going to be told that I don't belong in medicine because the professor raised a grade. But thats okay, its much better than being falsely accused of being a drug addict.

I personally don't think that people who use or abuse performance enhancing drugs belong in medicine--after all you will have carte blanche to abuse whatever more powerful drugs you like once you are actually a doctor. Today it's some Adderoll "because it makes me feel normal" tomorrow its benzo "because normal people feel good" and valium "because it brings me down to normality."

I would never abuse drugs. Doing so would ruin a career as a doctor! I wouldn't want to do that, especially since being a doctor is the only thing I can see myself doing. That is what I am so devoted to right now-becoming a doctor. I have never abused drugs in my life, I havent ever even touched illegal ones, even when they were right in front of my face. That is the truth! I can say that there have been people literally sitting a foot away from me who were passing around a marajuana joint, I declined the offer of taking it. I didn't need drugs to "have fun" or "look cool". I wasn't even tempted, the idea of smoking that crap was repulsing (and still is). I was 15 at the time too, even then having to deal so much with "peer pressure", I wasn't going to do it. Then these people decided to get drunk; but when they decided to leave I refused to go with them-there was no way I would get into a car with a drunk driver. Yes, I was making not-so-good grades, but I was too smart to smoke pot and get into a car with a drunk driver.

If a medication has too much of an affect on me, I won't take it. Thats one of the reason that I do not take ritalin. I was prescribed that one first, but I didn't want to continue it because of its effects. It made me too calm, it messed with my attitude. It changed my kind of short temper into quite a long fuse. That wasn't "me", I didn't want a med that changed who I was that much. It would be nice to have a little bit of a longer fuse, but not to the extent that ritalin gave me. I don't want to change who I really am.

I want to be a doctor too much to screw up my life and lose that chance. I want to be a doctor bad enough that I am giving up a lot even as a pre-med. I mean I have given up so many work hours that I can barely bring in $200 a month! I havent turned on my gamecube in a long time. I don't see my friends much outside of work or class. No, I'm not a gunner. I know that sounds like I am, but I don't have the scores of a gunner nor do I try to make others fail-if someone in a biology or chemistry class needs help I am more than glad to help them.

All these "ADHD" people are so in love with their drug that they've created this grand illusion of what it is to think and feel normal. Then they've convinced themselves that they don't feel this way unless they're popping Ritalin, but everyone else feels this way without drugs. I don't deny that you actually feel this way; the psychological hold of a methamphetamine is considerable. But please, don't think that there is absolute agreement even within the medical and scientific communities about the condition we call ADHD; everyone who disagrees with you is not ignorant or willfully blind. If you think it's insensitive to call your FDA approved methamphetamine (recently banned in Canada) "speed," then all I can say is I call it how I see it, and I don't pull punches to be polite on the internet. Sorry.

I haven't created an illusion that I am normal. I have said this before. THE MEDS DONT MAKE ME FEEL COMPLETELY "NORMAL"! I said that they make me think a LITTLE on the "more normal" side! I don't have a "psychological hold" on these meds, I have said that I could give them up if needed! I take them so I can control my mind. You don't know what it feels like to not be able to concentrate/focus/not daydream when you so desperatly want to! When I was in high school I was yelled at by a couple of teachers almost every freaking day iver something that was beyond my control; you don't know what its like! You have no understanding whatsoever about ADD or the medications used to treat it!

I hope I never get sick or hurt anywhere near where you are being a doctor. I would hate to be at the unhelping hands of a quack. Well, I have better things to be doing that argue with a $hit-for-brains troll. Goodbye

 

[anothertbmember]

So FutrueDoc, you take it because it makes you feel "more normal". By saying more normal you are implyng that the norm is something that is attainable outside of who you already are, that there is some idealized norm out there.

Here's the reality. Everyone's mind wanders, mine wanders all the time, the people I study with...yeah, same problem. I'm not gonna take a drug to change that because that changes my abilities. The feeling that you need to take the drug to become what you want to become is dependence, plain and simple.

 

[Jambi]

 

[Ross434]

My view on it is, if you can pull it off without taking drugs, do it, even if you can't be at the top of the list. Why make yourself have to take drugs to do something that you on your own wouldn't be able to do?

Okay, so, lets say you're physically disabled, and cant walk. You can TRY to "pull it off" and move around by crawling. But, if you use a wheelchair to do something you otherwise wouldnt be able to do, thats "cheating". Damn, all those disabled people using special aids to help them function normally. According to you, anyone who needs help to do something should just forget about it. How about prescription eyeglasses. Shoot, if people cant "pull it off" without them, then, they didnt have the focus needed to achieve their goals anyway. Geez, they must be cheating too, special aids to see better.

 

[sapience8x]

this reminds me of the argument from skinny people who have never had a weight problems in their life and say "all you need to do to lose weight si to eat less". you obviously haven't been there and lived in that person's shoes.
try having a difficult time learning, putting waaay too much time in for what you get out of it, needing thousands of dollars of neurodevelopmental tests to detect a learning disability but you can't afford them but a $20/month prescription of concerta at least helps. It does NOT increase your IQ but it helps you to be more efficent and live up to your potential. not to mention that people who do not have ADHD who try ritalin tend to get loopy- it doesn't help but hurts. ya'll are acting like this is anabolic steroids for the brain!
i have heard of its abuse but i've heard of many other susbantces being abused also. it is all wrong but if you have a real diagnosis and a real script , i dont' see what the problem is.

 

[anothertbmember]

See, you guys keep missing the key point.
You aren't disabled. You can do college and get a degree. Go get a job. Get married. Have kids. It's not everyone's right to do Med School. Realize this and you will live a more fulfilled life.

Fatties-eat less, workout, you might not look as good as me, but you won't look like fat slobs.

 

[anothertbmember]

One more thing, two of my cousins had absolutely terrible ADD. If it weren't for our modern society that puts sitting in a classroom as the absolute most important thing I would still say they shouldn't have been medicated. Put that energy to good use, have them do outside work. One is a missionary in Nepal and the other works heavy machinery for construction crews. Wow, what a shocker they are doing something that their mind and body are more naturally geared toward.

In fact, I was a happier person over the summer when I was working as a laborer on a construction crew. If I could, I would work out twice a day right now just to keep my energy level down to a "normal" person's level, but I can't. I need to put that time to studying. When I actually am doing clinical years of med school and residency I will be all over it. If I don't get a workout in I don't sleep. Perfect. But for now I have to deal with having a mind that would rather have me posting on SDN than studying for my 3 tests later this week. I do it because it's a trying time for now, that I can do without chemical assistance. I don't need some pill to help me get through this. There's a lot more I can say but I won't because I have to study.

 

[Crake]

Yes, it's very hard to see how anyone could ever misunderstand you, seeing as you write so lucidly. If that wasn't a cogent, concise rebuttal than I don't know what is.

I particularly like this part:

"Then these people decided to get drunk; but when they decided to leave I refused to go with them-there was no way I would get into a car with a drunk driver."

All sarcasm aside, I'm starting to believe that perhaps ADHD is real, judging form the mismatch of totally unrelated arguments in your rebuttal. I don't seem to remember asking you how much gamecube you play, but it is interesting (even revealing) that you thought that had some relevance to the argument at hand. The rest I could almost understand; there appeared to be some borderline-sentences peppered in there among the incomprehensible babble. I cannot wait to read your orders some day, I imagine they will go something like:

"take 2x asprin qd gamecube is so fun I once got AABB in college and then I was going to get in a car. And they were drinking so I was like no-way! I don't do drugs and I only make $200 a week!"

Like I said in my original arguement, some persons are so hobbled by a psychological disorder that they are unable to function:

"Certainly, there are some people that have an attention deficit disorder and cannot function without the crutch of medication. That is fine, and those persons should avail themselves of treatment."

If this is the case, stay out of medicine, that's all I'm saying. Sure you can dope yourself up on drugs and try to even the playing field, but in the end you're still someone on crystal meth. You can call it whatever you like--Adderoll, Ritalin, Strattera--but you're never going to escape the fact that you are on an amphetamine while your peers are not.

Now, there are some people that have an attention deficit disorder who are completely incapable of functioning without drugs to keep them in check. I accept that. Likewise, there are schizophrenics that cannot function without medication. I accept that also. However when one is so dependent on a drug, particulary a narcotic like crystal meth for normal human functioning, they not fit for a discipline that requires the utmost in careful concentration and attention to detail. This is not to say that they are inferior; any such pejorative classification presupposes a scale to compare them to. All I am saying is that different disciplines require different minds and abilities. I happen to think that someone who lacks any sort of dexterity would make a terrible baseball player--I'm not putting that person down, I'm simply acknowledging the reality of the situation. Likewise, someone who is using what I consider to be serious drugs like Adderoll doesn't belong on the other side of the scalpel.

It should also be noted that the long-term effects of amphetamine use are not yet fully understood (or appreciated) by the scientific community. Already, evidence suggests that Ritalin use among adolescents exacerbates mental illness rather than curbing it. I would not be suprised if these findings are the tip of the iceberg; the benefits of drug use, even legal, are seldom without consequences.

 

[Crake]

And, just for the record, I WAS one of those hyperactive kids in highschool that was the bane of every one of my teachers. If my parents had cared about my education one iota, I would have been the first to have a Ritalin prescription.

I happen to think that the most highly intelligent people are the most bored with school during adolescence. Unfortunately, our big-pharmaceutical driven culture has successfully inculcated the idea that being "normal" consists of zoning in (or out) like a speed addict. It is also true that amphetamine use drastically changes a person's personality and curbs their creativity. Users beware.

 

[typeB-md]

this reminds me of the argument from skinny people who have never had a weight problems in their life and say "all you need to do to lose weight si to eat less". you obviously haven't been there and lived in that person's shoes.
try having a difficult time learning, putting waaay too much time in for what you get out of it, needing thousands of dollars of neurodevelopmental tests to detect a learning disability but you can't afford them but a $20/month prescription of concerta at least helps. It does NOT increase your IQ but it helps you to be more efficent and live up to your potential. not to mention that people who do not have ADHD who try ritalin tend to get loopy- it doesn't help but hurts. ya'll are acting like this is anabolic steroids for the brain!
i have heard of its abuse but i've heard of many other susbantces being abused also. it is all wrong but if you have a real diagnosis and a real script , i dont' see what the problem is.

this reminds me of the fat people that say "no i can't do that"

and then once they start eating less (and healthier) and start exercising are magically able to shed 150 lbs.

and it doesn't increase your IQ, it increases concentration blind to any genetic 'defects'. So.. i can concentrate better and so can you with these drugs.

let's take a poor performing athlete and give him steroids to bring him up to be a somewhat good athlete. Now.. why can't we give the steroids to the already somewhat good athlete and make him spectacular? everyone wants to do better.. we can't justify it for some and not for others.

there are genetic predispositions to learning and you can drug yourself to change them but why? if we gave einstein drugs for his 'learning disabilities' do you think we'd still have his genius works? probably not.

everyone thinks they are entitled to something - you are not.

 

[Dave IPFW]

Just curious, but what do you guys think about using antidepressants to treat the disorder, particularly Wellbutrin? I've heard that a lot of doctors prescribe certain antidepressants in treating ADD, so since these types of drugs aren't within the domain of "speed-like drugs," i.e. amphetamines, are they then okay to use for the sole treatment of ADD, withstanding depression?

I'm not taking sides here, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any interesting opinions, research, etc. I happen to take Wellbutrin for depression, and as a corollary, I seem to focus better, but then again, that should make sense, because who concentrates well during a depression?

 

[ThreadkillerMD]

Just curious, but what do you guys think about using antidepressants to treat the disorder, particularly Wellbutrin? I've heard that a lot of doctors prescribe certain antidepressants in treating ADD, so since these types of drugs aren't within the domain of "speed-like drugs," i.e. amphetamines, are they then okay to use for the sole treatment of ADD, withstanding depression?

I'm not taking sides here, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any interesting opinions, research, etc. I happen to take Wellbutrin for depression, and as a corollary, I seem to focus better, but then again, that should make sense, because who concentrates well during a depression?

You'd better watch it Dave! These mental giants don't think too highly of depression either.

 

[reddirtgirl]

Just curious, but what do you guys think about using antidepressants to treat the disorder, particularly Wellbutrin? I've heard that a lot of doctors prescribe certain antidepressants in treating ADD, so since these types of drugs aren't within the domain of "speed-like drugs," i.e. amphetamines, are they then okay to use for the sole treatment of ADD, withstanding depression?

I'm not taking sides here, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any interesting opinions, research, etc. I happen to take Wellbutrin for depression, and as a corollary, I seem to focus better, but then again, that should make sense, because who concentrates well during a depression?

ADHD and depression are often diagnosed simlutaneously (ditto for OCD). The frustration that untreated adhd creates often causes depression, which can in turn aggravate the adhd, which then aggravates the depression- etc. Happens w/ young kids (many of whom don't get diagnosed until much later, or even never).

I know of more than one shrink that use drugs marketed as anti-depressants to treat ADD simultaneously w/ another existing disorder (most commonly depression) in young adults. I've seen this done w/ Effexor, which, like wellbutrin, affects multiple neurotransmitters. In effexor's case, it supposedly inhibits dopamine reuptake, which in effect might create a similar response to giving a dopamine receptor agonist (ie ADHD meds). I think wellbutrin has some limited dopaminergic effects thus it too can act similarly to adhd meds, but might require high doses to sufficiently address adhd.

Effexor's effectiveness in dopamine reuptake is rather small. At normal doses it is effective at inhibiting (select) serotinin reuptake; at higher doses it also inhibits norepi reuptake (these address depression). To achieve the levels of dopamine reuptake inhibition needed to address ADHD requires rather high doses.... often so high that it might make more sense to use something that works on dopamine receptors only (ie ADHD meds).

Alternatively, using something that only works on dopamine receptors might also be effective in treating depression... which is a good thing in that you are screwing w/ fewer NT's. Thus the reverse of what you described can be true- address ADHD and you can address depression too.

 

[reddirtgirl]

-obviously if you are on meds for adhd/depression/ocd etc and are in medicine or thinking about heading that way, it's best to keep it on the down-low.

-while MD's are supposed to be scientific, it's obvious that many aren't exactly unbiased. They buy into cultural stigmas and write people off wholesale. What they don't fully understand, they deny. I think having the attitude of "cannot confirm nor deny" is a bit more prudent.

-There is research into genetic and (toxic) environmental factors affecting/triggering adhd. However, I think that just living in commercial american society as a whole contributes to developing adhd if you don't learn how to ignore alot of the stimuli that society throws at everyone, starting from a young age. A good place to cultivate the ability to ignore things can be found right here- in dealing w/ the naysayers on this thread.

-unlike something like diabetes, where glc levels can be monitored, the inability of having quantified measurements of NT's in specific areas of the brain (w/o doing great harm to the pt) contributes to people's ignorance... they don't fully see it so they deny it. Wouldn't it be nice if disorders involving NT's could be diagnosed with something like a spinal tap? But then people w/ ADHD would still be deemed "unsuitable for medicine" by some.

-equating street meth with adderall & dexadrine is silly. Rather different dosages for starters...

-methamphetamine has quite a long history of (clinical) use. Like anything else, you can use it for good or for 'evil'. So does coke, you say... well w/o cocaine & heroin, we would not have all it's medically useful derivatives. People associate "illegal" and "scheduled" drugs with moral deficiency. Go ahead, get that root canal, squeeze out that baby, writhe in cancerous pain w/o the assistance of drugs... because by doing so makes one so morally, physically, mentally superior! And ONLY such superior humans should be allowed to pursue medicine because there is no place in medicine for anything remotely different and inferior...

 

[anothertbmember]

And ONLY superior humans should be allowed to pursue medicine because there is no place in medicine for anything remotely different and inferior...

Yeah, I think you got it right in that last sentence. I'm glad you've come around. Welcome.

 

[reddirtgirl]

to the anti-adhd people:

are you saying that ALL people w/ adhd should stay out of pursuing/practicing medicine altogether?

 

[anothertbmember]

to the anti-adhd people:

are you saying that ALL people w/ adhd should stay out of pursuing/practicing medicine altogether?

It depends on how you define it. I went to adult ADHD.com or whatever it is and took their quiz. Guess what I have symptoms that may indicate I have ADHD. Can I pull off med school without drugs? Heck yes! Will I make an excellent doctor? Heck yes! Most certainly a better one than a med student.
So, my mind wanders, I procrastinate, I hate doing work that requires planning, isn't that every one? Pretty much. If you are relying on your chemical dependence to get you through I say you haven't earned it.

 

[anothertbmember]

and with that I'm done

 

[pillowhead]

Just curious, but what do you guys think about using antidepressants to treat the disorder, particularly Wellbutrin? I've heard that a lot of doctors prescribe certain antidepressants in treating ADD, so since these types of drugs aren't within the domain of "speed-like drugs," i.e. amphetamines, are they then okay to use for the sole treatment of ADD, withstanding depression?

I'm not taking sides here, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any interesting opinions, research, etc. I happen to take Wellbutrin for depression, and as a corollary, I seem to focus better, but then again, that should make sense, because who concentrates well during a depression?

I've thought about the same thing. I think anti-depressants are over-prescribed, but the difference with an SSRI and an amphetamine is that I don't think the SSRI is really going to do anything for someone who is pretty normal in the first place while the amphetamine will. Therefore while it's not good that so many people take SSRIs w/o really needing to, I don't think it's as serious as all the people taking ADHD meds. Plus people taking ADHD meds are most likely to be pediatric patients whose brains are still developing. I would think the average SSRI patient is older.

 

[EMTLizzy]

See, you guys keep missing the key point.
You aren't disabled. You can do college and get a degree. Go get a job. Get married. Have kids. It's not everyone's right to do Med School. Realize this and you will live a more fulfilled life.
.

No, nobody has a right to go to med school. It is a privilege that is earned.

But, I think you keep missing the point. Someone with ADD/ADHD isn't taking medication just to get better grades so they can get into med school/law school/PhD program. College may not be very possible AT ALL without the meds. Or for that matter, passing enough classes to graduate high school. Working wouldn't be too easy at any job or any level because you just can't physically concentrate long enough to complete any tasks.

More importantly, has anyone noticed that not one single med school in the country excludes you from admission if you have ADHD or take medication for it? If they did, it would be a huge ADA lawsuit. I think adcoms across the country have a bit more experience in what characteristics make a successful student than people on SDN.

And do any of you realize how silly you sound when you say "I'd never go to a doctor with (insert condition)." Since nobody with ADHD grows horns or has to wear a tag around their neck how would you ever honestly know unless they flat out told you...which they are under no obligation to do? I guaratee at some point in your career you will have colleagues who you respect, truse, and admire who turn out to be ::shock:: ADHD...or have depression problems...or any number of problems.

 

[Snuka]

Let's see what you guys think of this little scenario that's going on in my med school right now..

There is a person in my class that has a learning disability. He gets a 1-on-1 tutor for every class, even though the rest of the class is told it has to be in groups of no less than 4. We have block testing which means a 6 hr exam every 6 weeks or so. Due to his disability he requires extra time, double to be exact. So now he gets 12 hrs for an exam that the rest of us get 6 for. Ofcourse 12 hrs is too long to sit in a room and take and exam so now he gets to take it over the course of 2 days. By the way, this new exam
schedule was worked out after threatening to "sue" the Dean's Office for discrimination. I have been personally told by this person that b/c he has free viewing of the exam over the course of the day and an hour lunch break, that he goes and looks up answers and fills them in upon returning. The rest of us turn in Part I of the exam b/f lunch and get a completely separate exam after lunch and are ofcourse bound by the honor code, which seems to be lacking here.

So .. Do you think it's fair that this person gets afforded all these extras? What is going to happen to this person when we get into rotations in a few months? Will the attending be understanding that this student needs more time to come up w/ a diagnosis? Should this person be in the medical field? Are they a liability to both patients and other doctors?

 

[MD'05]

So .. Do you think it's fair that this person gets afforded all these extras? What is going to happen to this person when we get into rotations in a few months? Will the attending be understanding that this student needs more time to come up w/ a diagnosis? Should this person be in the medical field? Are they a liability to both patients and other doctors?

That is sad that this person is taking advantage of the system. If he has ADHD, I don't know how he focuses long enough to complete the exam over 12 hours.

 

[typeB-md]

That is sad that this person is taking advantage of the system. If he has ADHD, I don't know how he focuses long enough to complete the exam over 12 hours.

reading comp much? he said that 12 hours was too long to sit so now he takes it over 2 days.

and it is b.s. that these 'circumstances' exist.

why is our generation such a bunch of tools. if you can't hack school, you're not going to hack the real world. we shouldn't set up fantasy environments and pretend like everyone is a magical creature of god.

obvious incompatibility should never be mandated by law. When you make up disabilities, the ADA is a monkey or the back of productivity.

 

[MD'05]

reading comp much?

What?

 

[typeB-md]

What?

exactly.

 

[Megalofyia]

What?

What he ment to say was "Do you have reading comprehension problems?"

Because your responce didn't mesh with what you were responding to.

 

[MD'05]

What he ment to say was "Do you have reading comprehension problems?"

Because your responce didn't mesh with what you were responding to.

Actually my responSe did mesh. 12 hours are 12 hours whether they are split over two days or 6 days. It might be more a problem of poor writing skills on the part of the OP.

 

[Argante]

I doubt that whatever I say will actually change anybody's opinion, but hey, I have to try. I'm an MS4 and I was diagnosed w/ ADD/ADHD (whatever the hell you want to call it) just over a year ago. That means that I functioned well enough until that point to get through undergrad and the pre-clinical years of med school w/out meds. To be honest, I could technically function now without meds. But they make a huge difference.

There's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread about what ADD really is. It's not just an inability to concentrate while in class or studying. Part of the definition is that it affects more than one area of your life: social, academic, etc. Yes, everyone has trouble concentrating during lectures and while studying boring stuff at some point. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about never being able to concentrate as long as everyone else, even when I'm fascinated by the subject. Then there are the constant scrapes and bruises I have because I forget to pay attention to where I'm going. I'm a dancer, I have excellent spatial awareness and body control when I pay attention, I just don't most of the time. I've had trouble making friends because people would think I wasn't interested in what they were saying because I would get distracted while they were talking. Then I would blurt out stupid things because I wouldn't think about them first, so I would seem rude or uncaring. I find everything interesting, for about 5 minutes. I've started so many extra-curricular activities and hobbies, it's amazing. And I was usually very good at whatever I was doing. But then I'd get bored and just move on.

Academically, I managed to get through, even doing fairly well occasionally. The interesting part was that I always got comments about not living up to potential. By testing I would end up in the highest level/gifted classes, and everyone thought I was a straight A student, but I wasn't. I would simply not do homework. No good reason, I had the time, I would plan it out and everything, I just wouldn't do it. Or I'd do it the morning it was due. Same thing for studying for exams. I hate memorizing. I can do it, actually very well, if I can pay attention long enough to get the information into my brain in the first place. The classes I did the worst on in college were those that required the most memorization (i.e. biology and orgo.). I ended up majoring in physics and got nearly straight A's in those classes because of the way you were expected to learn. Almost all my exams were open book, open note, which meant I just had to understand what was going on, but could look up those stupid details that are easy to forget. It's interesting, my coping mechanism for taking exams ended up being to rush though them as fast as possible instead of taking more time. I was almost always the first person in whatever class to finish an exam. Of course, part of the problem with this approach was that I would make stupid mistakes. I wouldn't read all of the question or all of the answers and therefore get it wrong. If I tried to slow down and make sure I wasn't missing anything, I would get bored out of my mind and start missing things from frustration. When I was studying for Step I, I had this great study plan, not even very ambitious, just 4 hours a day. I couldn't do it. At the very most, I would get 2 hours of worthwhile studying/day. And that wasn't even every day. I know my classmates studied more than that because I saw them. They would be at the library or wherever before me, stay after I left, and would be more consistent while they were there. I'd be watching everyone else and getting up and walking around, while they were being productive. But I still passed, and not just barely. I ended up with an average score.

 

[Argante]

So, if I was able to pass, why did I start taking meds? Because while I was functioning, I wasn't functioning well. I also was constantly frustrated with myself for not doing better and with others for expecting me to be like everyone else. If I could score average on Step I with almost no studying, what would I be capable of if I could focus just a little? So I thought I'd give it a try. And it was great. I remember the first time I was able to sit though a lecture and actually pay attention to what was going on the entire time. To be honest, my grades didn't change very much. But I studies a lot better and was much less frustrated in general. At one point, I ended up forgetting to take my meds for most of the first week of a rotation. I knew I wasn't doing as well as I could, but I thought I was doing fine. At the end of the next week, when I had actually been remembering to take the meds, the preceptor told me what a difference he had noticed in those 2 weeks. The first week he thought I was miserable and bored, hated where I was and wasn't interested in learning from him. The second week he saw that I was very enthusiastic and interested in anything he had to teach, he saw how much I really love medicine and said he could see how much it was a part of me. Now, he didn't know why there was a difference, but he obviously saw it. What I learned from that experience was that the meds made more of a difference than even I realized.

I actually really hate classifying ADD as a disorder or disability. I truly believe it's just a natural variant in attention and learning. Unfortunately, there is no room in our society for people that learn differently. Medical school is one of the worst, so in order to function and not be miserable I currently take meds. My hope is that once I'm not in such a rigid environment where I'm expected to be like everyone else, I won't need them. Also, I'm in the process of switching from Adderall to Strattera because I didn't like being on amphetamines. I took them because I knew how much of a difference it made. But I admit, I prefer the idea of a non-controlled substance.

I don't want to be super-student or at the top of my class. I just want a chance that is somewhat more equal to my classmates.

Also, while the stimulants can increase attention in those w/out ADD, they don't always. They actually don't always work in those who do have it. But a blanket statement that everyone concentrates better on amphetamines is flat out wrong. As is saying Adderall is the exact same as meth or crack. Again, dosages and exact effects are different.

 

[Joel Fleischman]

the above post mirrors my experience exactly.
Until I went on meds I truly had NO IDEA why anyone ever went to class.
I was an engineer in college and pursued a PhD in engineering before medical school... I still do crappily on the more memorization intense classes.
Type b... Ive go an exam comming up but Ill respond to your question when I;ve got more time.

 

[Variance]

I was diagnosed with AD-HD and prescribed adderall when i was in fifth grade but my parents and teachers never believed in ADHD and thusly never gave me the medicine...
. fast-forward to today.. I took some adderall my friend had on a whim while studying for some mid-terms.. I usually have trouble studying and doing well on tests.. but I went from scraping low to high 70%s to 95% or higher on all my exams. I'm reluctant to take it again but I think AD-HD is a very real thing.