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Medical School Debt Concerns

Started by Giovanotto
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Giovanotto

Giovanotto

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I know this isn't exactly an original thread, and I have been reading through plenty of them in the last few days, but the fact still remains that my situation is different enough. Different in the sense that I will not be qualifying for loan forgiveness programs and military always talked about when relating to student debt.

I'm an international student that will be taking out private loans to pay for his medical school education (DO). After 4 years, not including interest (anywhere from 7-9%), I will be ~220k in debt. I am getting a bit of family help, which is the only reason I'm still considering doing this, because otherwise I'd be after four years 280k in debt. After interest (assuming 8.5%) I'm looking at 270k in debt. After ~4 year of residency that will balloon to 330k.

Suffice it to say, I'm genuinely concerned and I dislike the situation that I'd have to take on in order to become a physician, even if I think its a great career choice for me. I hardly believe the advice of practicing physicians since their loan amounts and interests where very different when they were in school. Not too many people will be taking out this loan at this interest rate without government assistance.

What to do? How do I justify this decision? No matter how strongly I feel about medicine, the thought of being broke until I'm 35 (I'm in my mid 20s) does not appeal to me in any way. I'm envious of those not coming out with debt, as ideally, I'd like to live a normal life as a resident and not be having to put everything into loans right away. I've lived on resident salary and it's more than enough for me. With 330k in debt? not so much.
 
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Seems like you already know the answer to your question. Now you are asking internet strangers to justify what you already feel and believe.

There is no shame with what you are feeling. You are smart enough to get into medical school. You are smart enough to understand the consequences of that tremendous debt burden. You are smart enough to do something else well too.

Also think about this, you are holding on to someone else's dreams right now. Someone else's ticket to a future.

Good luck
 
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I feel a similar stress that you do but many of the docs I have discussed debt with have told me not to worry about it because they make enough to pay off the loans and live comfortably. However, they are not primary care docs which I know make less money so it may be harder for you if you want to be a pcp. Or you could live like a resident for a few years and work hard to pay it off quickly if you want.
 
You make it sound like you are entitled to some kind of free education, which you are not especially as an international student.
 
It will be a lot easier to obtain permanent residency as a physician.

Though I think you may need to commit to working in a primary care field in a medically-underserved area.
 
If you're a solid student with a good chance of a decent residency, I don't think it's so bad, especially since you say you're comfortable on a resident's salary. You can figure out based on an estimated income of $200k or so, how long it would take to pay back, if you're only living on $70k of it.

I think it's really good that you're considering the financial aspect. You must have considered this earlier -- what were your thoughts about debt before your acceptance? What are your other job options now? If it's resident salary, you really are better taking the debt in order to improve your income. Any chance of getting in at a cheaper school?
 
So my thought about this is that the debt is totally manageable if you live frugally through residency and the first few years as an attending. My plan is to live on 30+ grand (give or take, more if I have kids) until my debt is gone. Is it a sacrifice? Sure! But let's be honest, we've all already sacrificed to make this dream happen. Right now I'm used to living on 15 g a year, so I know I'd feel more than comfortable on that much.

It might not be fun, but it's so very possible to knock that debt down. People just don't want to live frugally after all that work. Which I get.
 
With these private loans do u need to start full payment in residency or are you still allowed to defer or do income based repayment??

If you can do deferrment or IBr in residency then youll be completely fine. If your required to make full on $2000 payments a month in residency, then probably not worth it. Unless u have parents to help with those payments!
 
jondoe123 said:
With these private loans do u need to start full payment in residency or are you still allowed to defer or do income based repayment??

If you can do deferrment or IBr in residency then youll be completely fine. If your required to make full on $2000 payments a month in residency, then probably not worth it. Unless u have parents to help with those payments!
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With private loans, it depends on the lender. The repayment terms are dependent on the terms of the specific loan given to you. There are no blanket repayment terms that apply to private loans like those that apply to federal loans.

As to the OP's situation, the choice is yours. It's tough. I would be weary of platitudes like "you gotta do what you love <3 <3" and other such things because they don't take into account the very real burden of not only a huge amount of debt but debt which is taken from private lenders which, as mentioned above, may not have the favorable repayment terms available to most federal loans. Forgiveness after x period of time is likely also not an option.

Is it worth it? I don't know, and I don't think anyone does in your particular case - that's a question that only you yourself can answer. Assuming you don't make poor financial decisions are able to secure a residency and become an attending, I have no doubt that you would be able to pay off that debt. The question is at what cost. It's a difficult question because it's impossible for you to predict what your life circumstances and expectations will be 7+ years down the road, and financial well-being plays a huge role in that.

My only advice would be to give this situation due consideration, do as much research as you possibly can about the school you're attending (how successful they are at placing students in residencies, etc.), and do as much research as you can with respect to what you can reasonably expect to make as an attending based on the fields that you're interested in. You may find yourself to be one of those folks for whom future income plays a significant role in what they choose to do. Whatever you decide to do, this isn't something that should be decided half-heartedly or on a whim. That's a gigantic pile of money you're going to take on as debt, and it absolutely will affect your financial health for a long period of time.
 
To be honest we are in a generation that if stays healthy will probably be working till our late 70s-80s (unless of course u saved a lot to retire/invested well.) personally i chose medicine because i want to practice till i cant anymore even if its just part time.

Being 35 and making attending salary isnt bad in long term thinking.

I would approach the scenario that you will be a doc since its what you really wanna do but do your due dilligence and make sure ur not paying tons of money in residency that isnt possible with private loans. Im almost positive though they let u make reduced payments in residency just higher interest, but thats ok.
 
Thank you so much for everyone who has replied so far, you have given me plenty to think about and many great points were made.

futuremdforme said:
If you're a solid student with a good chance of a decent residency, I don't think it's so bad, especially since you say you're comfortable on a resident's salary. You can figure out based on an estimated income of $200k or so, how long it would take to pay back, if you're only living on $70k of it.

I think it's really good that you're considering the financial aspect. You must have considered this earlier -- what were your thoughts about debt before your acceptance? What are your other job options now? If it's resident salary, you really are better taking the debt in order to improve your income. Any chance of getting in at a cheaper school?
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I was considering this earlier, but I was never sure I was going to be able to get in somewhere. I was quite an underdog and got into a local school, which I am very happy about. Only since my acceptance have I really began to wonder more seriously about the financial aspect of medical school. Problem is, I went from not planning on going to medical school, to working on my resume/ECs, MCAT, applying and being accepted all in the span of 10 months. I never had time to stop and seriously think about a plan B or much else. I was all in, so to speak.

I was making resident salary for a couple of years, but I'm a student again with no job prospect (given my status here as a int. student, it's hard, for legal reasons)


RE: LOAN QUESTIONS
Most have a 60 month deferment period following graduation of medical school. I could choose not to pay anything for 48+60 months.

Ex)
Benefits :
  • Students make no payments until six months after leaving school (up to 60 months for M.D. and D.O. students).
  • Pay no application, origination, or early repayment fees.
  • Select a competitive fixed or variable interest rate option.
I'm having a hard time finding a good loan calculator for medical students. One which takes into account 8 years of not paying into debt and such. Any suggestions? It would be nice to see everything laid out in front of me.
 
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PugsAndHugs said:
Almost everyone comes out with some kind of debt.
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There are ways to do it without having wealthy parents or family. Usually it requires some kind of sacrifice. Either serving in the military for a period of time (before or after medical school) or working in a job that makes enough to cover the costs. I will have achieved a no debt exit when I graduate medical school thanks to prior military service and saving money when I was in.
 
Make some models on what your debt will be, what you expect to make at different points, what your costs will be, and see if it works out well enough for you to consider it to be worth it. If not, don't do it. Plenty of people are in the same shoes as you and decided to go through with it because they believe it will be worth it, many others decided it wasn't and decided it wasn't for them.

If that's not how you'd prefer to live your life, do something else. If it is, then go for it. There's no point being envious of people who don't face such large debts, nor physicians who trained before prices became so high, that doesn't do anything useful for you.
 
DoctorLane said:
I've observed the same kind of senseless remarks from @allantois in multiple threads.
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I haven't observed anything of substance from you too.
As for the Gandy guy, I stopped reading his comments long ago (*and I suggest that to everyone else who is bored of my posts*).
 
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I believe the proper phrasing would be, "from you either."

I don't think anyone pointed out that your commentary lacks substance. You tend to provide unwanted criticism and negative feedback with every opportunity you can find. It's as if you are in search of the same Q&A topics, but want to be subjective and condescending when members are asking for honest feedback to questions about content that they truly care about.

If you have constructive criticism or you are able to provide good advice, I'm sure it will be more than appreciated. Otherwise, stop trying to bully people in the network with your indifference and rhetoric.
 
DoctorLane said:
I believe the proper phrasing would be, "from you either."

I don't think anyone pointed out that your commentary lacks substance. You tend to provide unwanted criticism and negative feedback with every opportunity you can find. It's as if you are in search of the same Q&A topics, but want to be subjective and condescending when members are asking for honest feedback to questions about content that they truly care about.

If you have constructive criticism or you are able to provide good advice, I'm sure it will be more than appreciated. Otherwise, stop trying to bully people in the network with your indifference and rhetoric.
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When I basically told him this, he just ignored me. The truth hurts.
 
xffan624 said:
Either serving in the military for a period of time (before or after medical school) or working in a job that makes enough to cover the costs. I will have achieved a no debt exit when I graduate medical school thanks to prior military service and saving money when I was in.
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How is serving in the military for x amount of years any different than going to medical school and paying off the debt in x amount of years?
 
For all of those who are interested, I'm going to spend some time in the very near future making calculations regarding my planned debt situation. It should help me make the decision, as advised on here. I need to see the numbers and let them sink in before making this decision. I'm going to try and enlist the help of some of my friends for the calculations. If anyone here also wants to or can lend a hand, please PM me. I will post the breakdown on here once I'm done.

On second thought, there are many things I can't take into account as I can't predict the future. Nevertheless, it will probably help me some. Things shouldn't change too drastically in the next 10 years...
 
I'll make it simple. If this is an issue for you, find another career.

Look up @Law2Doc's wise posts on the subject as well.



Giovanotto said:
What to do? How do I justify this decision? No matter how strongly I feel about medicine, the thought of being broke until I'm 35 (I'm in my mid 20s) does not appeal to me in any way. I'm envious of those not coming out with debt, as ideally, I'd like to live a normal life as a resident and not be having to put everything into loans right away. I've lived on resident salary and it's more than enough for me. With 330k in debt? not so much.
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Frankly, dude, you're kind of up a creek as someone coming from outside of the US.

If you're willing to commit to the military or serve on a Native American reservation, you may get loan help. I don't know if you need to be a US citizen for that though.

Loans are scary, there's no denying that. But some would argue that it's very similar to investing, and you're borrowing the initial capital in something you know will return on the investment eventually. Is that gap time from borrowing to debt-free easy? Hell no! It's not fun for anyone.

Why are you not pursuing your medical dreams in the country you are presently? I suppose it's not my business, but maybe in your country they could offer you better terms on the loans (or it won't cost that much).
 
Glazedonutlove said:
Is it worth it to move across the world for many years of debt?
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I could go back to my home country and pursue medicine, or anything for that matter, for practically ($2000/ year) free. However, I'm instead looking at taking $300k+ of loans to pursue professional school here. Nobody is forcing me to do it and I have other choices at the table. But instead of focusing on the negatives, I choose to focus on the positives (the fact that I could major in something of interest rather than jumping straight into the healthcare field, the fact that I've met people from all around the world, the great weather, etc etc).

I know plenty of internationally trained physicians who would love to come to US to practice medicine here, and I know plenty of people in the US who are internationals who wished that they were not discriminated against in the admissions process. Medicine is also one of the few professions that enables non-citizens to stay in the US for work. Nobody going to medical school who is taking loans, federal or private, should expect to have their loans forgiven (http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-student-loan-program-proves-costly-1448042862). The opportunity cost for becoming a physician in the US is great, but so are the payoffs. So instead of being envious of others, I'd instead keep positive about the not so bad situation the OP is in.
 
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Goro said:
I'll make it simple. If this is an issue for you, find another career.

Look up @Law2Doc's wise posts on the subject as well.
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I think for any sane, logical human being, being hesitant to take on ~$300k for a career slowly on the decline (ie: healthcare reform, midlevel encroachment, declining reimbursements, etc) is completely logical. Only the most foolish would be completely unfazed.

OP, my advice for you is to think long and hard about if you can imagine yourself in any other field besides medicine. If you can't, then maybe the debt may be worth it.
 
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Glazedonutlove said:
Your situation is different - dental school doesn't have residency and I am assuming you are not an international student and are eligible for loans. Op is being practical in asking this question, not envious
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Dental school tuiton has long surpassed medical and dentists never enjoyed any types of loan forgiveness programs (the idea is not even entertained on the pre-dental forum). I don't see what the issue with private loans is when you assume (as everyone should) that their federal loans are not going to be forgiven. I actually think that federal government should not be in the business of giving out student loans, but that's for a different discussion. The OP's financial situation is literally NO DIFFERENT from anyone else's who is going to the medical school that he was accepted to, and I doubt that the terms of that private loan are a whole lot different from federal loans.
 
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I would encourage you to be reeeeealllly careful about taking out so much in private loans. There was a girl on Job or No Job (yes, I watch terrible reality television- NO SHAME) who took out ~$150K in private loans to pay for her undergraduate education and was facing $800-$900/month loan payments each month. As they were private loans, she wasn't eligible for debt-repayment programs like Income Based Repayment or Pay As You Earn (more info here). However, maybe these programs do apply to medical residents/physicians no matter what loan you have- if someone knows, please feel free to correct me. Another example: my boyfriend had to take out a private loan to cover living expenses while studying for his bar exam. He had a great credit score and received a scholarship, but he still needed to take out an $8K loan with an interest rate of 13.5%. In the six months between taking the bar and when he needed to make his first payment, the loan amount ballooned from $8K to ~$10K.

As an international student, can you be certain that you will get the amount you need to cover your tuition as well as a low(ish) interest rate? I did a quick search and noticed that many private lenders capped their loan amounts required international students to have a US citizen as a cosigner. I don't want to dissuade you from your dream of going to medical school, but I sincerely hope there's a better way for you to fund it than relying solely on private lenders as private loans tend to have higher interest rates than federal ones and the lenders are more aggressive about repayment.
 
Giovanotto said:
To be clear, and give you some perspective, I've been living in the U.S for 10+ years now. I certainly consider this place home.
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Then why aren't you a citizen? Isn't there programs for people to attain US citizenship who are in your situation?

If you can, making sure you're a citizen might be worth taking a gap year.
 
Conflagration said:
Then why aren't you a citizen? Isn't there programs for people to attain US citizenship who are in your situation?

If you can, making sure you're a citizen might be worth taking a gap year.
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I'm wondering this too. After 10+ years of residence in the US. I dont know anything about immigration laws though.
 
I think he really wants to be a doc and checking to see if it will be woth it money wise.

Starting salary for the most basic physician, not including production is usually around 160k (these are your basic outpatient family doc places in a saturated area if ur employed by someone). Money womt be an issue if your willing to WAIT it out with paying ur loans and stuff.
Question is, do u wanna wait a long time to start enjoying ur money cuz for some people its not worth it and the road is long. Dont take on the debt if you wanna have fun (your time and money will be limited) over the next 12 years. There are many other careers where you can make >70k just after college with minimal to no debt and have room to rise.
 
Conflagration said:
Then why aren't you a citizen? Isn't there programs for people to attain US citizenship who are in your situation?

If you can, making sure you're a citizen might be worth taking a gap year.
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No, there are no such programs. You need a green card first. Your work needs to sponsor you for the green card, and as a student, that's not going to happen. (And also, for most jobs, that's not going to happen as it's an expensive and lengthy process.) Being a citizen then takes a few more years but the green card is the major hurdle since you can't just say "I'm a law abiding person who has contributed to the US for X number of years."
 
Glazedonutlove said:
dental school doesn't have residency
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Just a quick point of clarification since this is a misconception many people have about dental school.
There are plenty of dental residencies. First of all, if you want to specialize, you have to do a residency (OMFS 4-6 yrs, Endo/Ortho/Pedo can be 2-3 yrs).

Even if you want to remain a general dentist, nowadays there is an increasing trend towards doing a 1-year AEGD or GPR residency after dental school. In fact, New York now requires you to do one in order to practice in that state as a general dentist.

But you are right that, at least for now, dentists do not HAVE to undergo mandatory residencies like MDs/DOs do....unless the dentists want to practice in New York. You can technically practice right out of dental school in many states, but this is becoming less and less frequent as states like NY begin to require a one-year or new grads opt to do one for the increased skills.

I personally intend to do a one-year residency no matter where I end up practicing because it will expand my scope of practice and will allow me to be more confident when performing procedures- which will benefit my patients in the long run.
 
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It might be long, but OP says he's been here for 10+ years. I'm ignorant as to what the laws are, but you'd think that they'd have a program for people who are here for an extended period of time and are doing positive things like schooling, work, and things like that.

Obviously, you'd need to talk to an immigration lawyer about that. Completely above my pay grade. Good luck OP.
 
Conflagration said:
It might be long, but OP says he's been here for 10+ years. I'm ignorant as to what the laws are, but you'd think that they'd have a program for people who are here for an extended period of time and are doing positive things like schooling, work, and things like that.

Obviously, you'd need to talk to an immigration lawyer about that. Completely above my pay grade. Good luck OP.
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unfortunately doesn't work that way
 
With this kind of lack of basic understanding of our country's immigration laws on the part of an apparently well-educated group of people, is it any wonder that that crypto-fascist billionaire with the bad toupee is getting so much traction?!!??

My husband came to the US to earn a PhD in a STEM field in 1991, and following his graduation worked in his field and paid lots of income and property taxes until about 2008, when he finally obtained a GREEN CARD. Then, he was not eligible to become a citizen until 2013.
 
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Conflagration said:
It might be long, but OP says he's been here for 10+ years. I'm ignorant as to what the laws are, but you'd think that they'd have a program for people who are here for an extended period of time and are doing positive things like schooling, work, and things like that.

Obviously, you'd need to talk to an immigration lawyer about that. Completely above my pay grade. Good luck OP.
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I'm not ignorant of the laws and I'm telling you, there is no such program. I knew someone who had been in the US legally for 20+ years through a combination of their parents' work visas (they returned to their home country eventually), her school visa, and her H1B visa. Ultimately it resolved when she married a US citizen, but that's 20+ years on a visa being at the mercy of an employer who wants to drop $10k on sponsoring you. (Which no one wants to do, since it means once you get a green card, you can easily get a new job.)
 
bumblebee611 said:
With this kind of lack of basic understanding of our country's immigration laws on the part of an apparently well-educated group of people, is it any wonder that that crypto-fascist billionaire with the bad toupee is getting so much traction?!!??

My husband came to the US to earn a PhD in a STEM field in 1991, and following his graduation worked in his field and paid lots of income and property taxes until about 2008, when he finally obtained a GREEN CARD. Then, he was not eligible to become a citizen until 2013.
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That crypto fascist billionaire you are talking about is getting traction from mostly people without even a college degree.
 
Gandyy said:
That crypto fascist billionaire you are talking about is getting traction from mostly people without even a college degree.
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Well that's what I'm getting at ... if even the smart, fairly well-educated folks here have no idea of how difficult it is to immigrate to the US and become a citizen, it's no wonder people with far less education are drawn to someone who sees the truth as no obstacle to asserting that he'll fix every complex problem by demonizing others and offering himself up as some kind of hateful, uncompassionate savior.
 
bumblebee611 said:
Well that's what I'm getting at ... if even the smart, fairly well-educated folks here have no idea of how difficult it is to immigrate to the US and become a citizen, it's no wonder people with far less education are drawn to someone who sees the truth as no obstacle to asserting that he'll fix every complex problem by demonizing others and offering himself up as some kind of hateful, uncompassionate savior.
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True. Its disgusting. He using the uneducated voter base to further his goals. Lets say he does ACTUALLY SOMEHOW get a bill to pass where there is a ban on an entire religion concerning immigration...... It still wont fix anything. The only thing he is doing right now is severely increasing religious/racial intolerance across the USA for his own gains. Of course people with "far less education" are never going to see this.
 
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